CLOSED: Thread Dedicated to the Upcoming/Anticipated Integration of Vistana & Marriott Ownerships (Marriott Link + Vistana Discussion)

[VacationForever]

What proof do you have that DPs are being sold like hotcakes other than being forced upon existing owners to enroll or requal deeds?

I do buy the rental argument as a source of income. Are you saying they are not recirculating resale deeds back into the market at all?

Dioxide was going through county records and tracking additions to the trust. He can jump in but my conclusion is that ROFL weeks are added into the trust. I know that during COVID their sales suffered and laid off a bunch of salespeople and closed many of their offices, as with most businesses. Tug is only a small group of owners and their sales have picked up now that offices have been reopened for in person meetings.

There is no such thing as forcing upon existing owners to enrill or requal deeds. No one is forced. A sale by any other name is still a sale. I have friends who kept adding 3000 points to their ownership until they reached Chairman's Club level.

Also, MVC sells hybrid packages and based on my own experience, those weeks don't come from ROFR. As owners, they help us resell our weeks through their hybrid bundle. They have done for us 5 times when we wanted to divest but we backed out each time because we felt that we were not done with timesharing.

 

[daviator]

It sounds like they would pass on ROFR and thus it goes back into the resale market unless they are ROFRing 100% of resale deeds.

If they pass on ROFR, then they don't reacquire the deed. So the person who is trying to buy it gets to buy it. Nothing changes except the ownership of the deeded week.

I’m not absolutely convinced they would put a highly desirable ocean front center week in the trust instead of sell it as a deed.

They might not, they might sell it as a deed. But again, it's not a "resale deed" at that point, it's a week that somebody buys from the developer with full privileges, etc.

 

[jabberwocky]

In Vistana, there is also skim. For example, with 176K SOs, I need to plan exactly how I will divide up those points if I do not use them at my home resort. Otherwise, I can lose SOs.

I don’t think that is skim. It’s just inefficient planning. I think over the 11 years we’ve owned our TS we’ve lost around 1250 SO. I didn’t think it was worth banking the remaining $20 worth that year.

Even through COVID I’ve managed to not lose anything in terms of points across both Hilton and Vistana. We cleared out the last of our Restricted SO in March and I just have around 10k of 2022 expiry SO that I will be looking to book with shortly.

I’ve appreciated the flexibility of having the ability to bank points along with the policies adopted by Vistana (Hilton I should note has been amazing!). If I just had straight weeks I don’t think we could have gotten similar trades through II.

 

[DanCali]

The concern about skim or getting few points than the highest demand weeks is confusing to me. I am confused as to why this is such a big deal if you can still use your week as a week. There is a reason when people decide to elect DPs for an enrolled week. So if you are choosing that option to get something you want instead of using your home resort, why is it a bad thing?

In Vistana, there is also skim. For example, with 176K SOs, I need to plan exactly how I will divide up those points if I do not use them at my home resort. Otherwise, I can lose SOs.

In Vistana there is zero skim in the sense that owners get exactly what it takes to book the weeks in their season. Point In = Points Out. It takes 176K SO to book every unit/week in your season and that's what you get when you elect points. That is not the case with Marriott - owners get 6%-9% less. I refer to it as "skim" but just think of it as a transaction fee when electing points. It is a cost that owners who elect points pay in an indirect manner.

Is it a big deal? That's in the eye of the beholder. Clearly many owners are converting to points and are willing to pay it. I too have converted some of my Newport Coast weeks in the past, but I'm not always inclined to do it because the week rental value is higher than the point rental value (less so for the Platinum Plus week).

It should not be a concern because you can't book the high demand weeks at your home resort. You can always use your week to book those. But the points you get would not allow you to book the high demand weeks at the resort "across the street". Per my prior post, that's not necessarily because of "skim", but because of how the system is set up where weeks are aligned with demand.

 

[dioxide45]

ROFR works for a while but someone must buy those expensive trust points - hence why they are discounting DPs 15x relative to deed enrollment to their base.

Who pays for unsold DP Maintenance fees when an ROFRed unit is deposited in the trust? MVC? or do they pass that on to the DP points holders by dividing by the total points in the trust by the number of purchased DPs? If the latter that sounds like a house of cards because they cannot continue to increase MF's infinitely and not expect people to walk away.

And if the former, MVC doesn't have the financials to carry all of the ROFR maintenance fees for unsold inventory if they ROFR everything. This is where resale deeds come in to alleviate that pressure on their financials.

So this suggests that MVC does not throw every ROFR into the trust and must dispose of the deeds via resale channels to get them off of their books. As the MVC population ages out we can expect resale inventory to increase over the next 10 - 20 years as people exit for health and other reasons unless MVC finds a way to sell more DP points and put more of those ROFR deeds into the trust.

For the most part, MVC weeks that Marriott takes back go into the DC trust. The only exceptions really are Boston Custom House and the resorts outside the domestic United States. For the trust, any unsold points sit on Marriott's book and they are responsible to pay the fees on those points. It is also possible that between the time Marriott takes a week back via ROFR and the time they can convey it to the trust there may be a use year happen. Marriott has traditionally only conveyed inventory to the trust twice a year. Unsold inventory is generally rented on Marriott.com and Marriott keeps any rental profit. They actually make a decent portion of their income from renting their unsold inventory.

 

[rcv82]

We all need to stop comparing SOs with DC points. If you own at your resort, you can keep using your week. SOs mean nothing in the MVC DC system. Skim comes in when you elect DC and try to book into peak period in your own season. I hated skim until I realized that I can come out even or better. I usually do a 12-night stay and skip one Fri and one Sat nights. With Presidential level, I also get 30 percent discount at 60 days.

Comparing SOs with DC points, along with who from Vistana is going to get access (and at what cost) to the DC exchange is really what this thread is mostly about, as it is what is new for Vistana owners. Both represent the internal exchange mechanism of the legacy companies, with some degree of integration with their respective trust products. For now it appears Vistana owners will have access to two “competing” internal exchanges (plus II). Long term I bet Marriott would like to find a way to get it to one system. Maybe they will never make that happen, but there is definitely complexity in managing all these overlapping systems and their respective inventory pools (home weeks, HomeOptions, in and out of VSN under 8 months out, interval and DC deposits, hotel inventory, etc., and all for each season and type of unit).


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[sharr7]

In Vistana there is zero skim in the sense that owners get exactly what it takes to book the weeks in their season. Point In = Points Out. It takes 176K SO to book every unit/week in your season and that's what you get when you elect points. That is not the case with Marriott - owners get 6%-9% less. I refer to it as "skim" but just think of it as a transaction fee when electing points. It is a cost that owners who elect points pay in an indirect manner.

Is it a big deal? That's in the eye of the beholder. Clearly many owners are converting to points and are willing to pay it. I too have converted some of my Newport Coast weeks in the past, but I'm not always inclined to do it because the week rental value is higher than the point rental value.

It should not be a concern because you can't book the high demand weeks at your home resort. You can always use your week to book those. But the points you get would not allow you to book the high demand weeks at the resort "across the street". Per my prior post, that's not necessarily because of "skim", but because of how the system is set up where weeks are aligned with demand.

Agree the main Vistana-side confusion is that we're familiar with point levels matching from the week you bought to other weeks in that season to the points you receive to travel to other network resorts...even to generally having similar "worth" across resorts. 81k is 81k is 81k and that gets you into a 1BR anywhere and low demand 2BRs (I think, without looking at the charts). With MVC you may own a week that costs 6k to book, in a season where points fluctuate by 3k points, average out to 4.5k weekly, and MVC gives you 4.1k to actually use in the system.

I think most of us get it though, it would have sucked but if near the beginning of the VSN, they said "you can travel to your resort in your season but if you convert to SOs, we rake 8% of the points as a convenience/network fee" - it would have been hard to swallow but people would have made it work in different ways, just like MVC owners do.

This soft launch is making it so much more difficult since most Vistana owners don't know what their weeks are worth in DP - no one knows if you don't trust a couple sales sheets. So that makes it hard to visualize how/if to use your unit in the DP system. It would be easier to communicate about the systems if we could all look at formal points charts and week values.

Lastly I think the MVC DP tables are poorly formatted. They look like they are at least 50% more complicated than Vistana when in reality there's maybe only 10-20% more complexity. Most resorts look like they have maybe 1-2 more true "seasons" (i.e., point levels) than typical Vistana and 1-2 weeks or selected days of peak pricing around holidays (somewhere between a true season and just a day or two of "these nights are gonna cost ya") - which generally Vistana doesn't do. But in the end they really follow chunks of weeks just like Vistana's system. In both charts it's hard to find your dates in different ways. Anyway my point is it's hard to look at when you're used to looking at Vistana's charts. And if I were in charge I would lay out the points summary differently.

 

[DanCali]

Lastly I think the MVC DP tables are poorly formatted. They look like they are at least 50% more complicated than Vistana when in reality there's maybe only 10-20% more complexity.

The poor formatting has to do with different pricing for different days of the week during some holiday weeks. Instead of Sun-Thu pricing it might be Sun- Mon, Tue-Thu, so even though the full week is similar to prior "chunks", they add a bunch more rows.

But - they really are more complex than VSN.... a lot more!

Exhibit #1 - Crystal Shores with 8 view categories... Per your comment it's not immediately obvious why Jan 6-12 is not with the Jan 13-26 and Apr 7-27 group. That's just page 1 of 2 for this resort

 

[VacationForever]

Exhibit #1 - Crystal Shores with 8 view categories... Per your comment it's not immediately obvious why Jan 6-12 is not with the Jan 13-26 and Apr 7-27 group.

View attachment 53002

Done by first grader.

 

[dioxide45]

The poor formatting has to do with different pricing for different days of the week during some holiday weeks. Instead of Sun-Thu pricing it might be Sun- Mon, Tue-Thu, so even though the full week is similar to prior "chunks", they add a bunch more rows.

But - they really are more complex than VSN.... a lot more!

Exhibit #1 - Crystal Shores with 8 view categories... Per your comment it's not immediately obvious why Jan 6-12 is not with the Jan 13-26 and Apr 7-27 group. That's just page 1 of 2 for this resort

View attachment 53002

I see that at other resorts where there are two sections that have the same point amounts across the board that really should be combined into one section. No idea why they do things this way. The charts are a bit of a mess.

 

[alexadeparis]

The poor formatting has to do with different pricing for different days of the week during some holiday weeks. Instead of Sun-Thu pricing it might be Sun- Mon, Tue-Thu, so even though the full week is similar to prior "chunks", they add a bunch more rows.

But - they really are more complex than VSN.... a lot more!

Exhibit #1 - Crystal Shores with 8 view categories... Per your comment it's not immediately obvious why Jan 6-12 is not with the Jan 13-26 and Apr 7-27 group. That's just page 1 of 2 for this resort

View attachment 53002

Yeah this chart system sucks, at the very least they need to put it in date order, both within the chart, and then within the line item. My brain hurts trying to comprehend this, but it may be purposely done this way to try to hide the skim.

 

[daviator]

My brain hurts trying to comprehend this, but it may be purposely done this way to try to hide the skim.

Back to my oft-expressed belief that they try to make it seem complicated. The more confused people are, the more people won’t use their ownership or won’t use it effectively, and that results in nights that MVW can very profitably rent out. It is a very cynical view, I know, but I feel like the big money in this “racket” is in monetizing sold but unused VOIs.

And as investors continue to demand growth from MVW, the easiest way to deliver it may be by increased rental income. How do you get more nights to rent? Continually increase the complexity of the system so that utilization goes down. Small dips in the percentage of utilized nights become big increases in profits, since renting those unused nights is pure profit (the owners are paying the MFs...)

 

[dioxide45]

I know, but I feel like the big money in this “racket” is in monetizing sold but unused VOIs.

Certainly renting out inventory you can get for free that someone else paid for is a great money maker. 100% profit! If it doesn't rent, there is no loss.

 

[robertk2012]

Certainly renting out inventory you can get for free that someone else paid for is a great money maker. 100% profit! If it doesn't rent, there is no loss.

They aren’t able to rent that inventory free are they?


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[daviator]

They aren’t able to rent that inventory free are they?


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Sure, I think they can. They can rent out whatever doesn’t get reserved by owners as well as inventory they own, VOIs traded for Bonvoy points, etc. I imagine they have a pretty good handle on demand and can sell more and more of the unreserved inventory as the checkin dates get closer. I think the nature of the program with the floating weeks, etc. gives them a lot of latitude to decide what they need to hold back for owners and what they can rent out.

 

[rcv82]

Sure, I think they can. They can rent out whatever doesn’t get reserved by owners as well as inventory they own, VOIs traded for Bonvoy points, etc. I imagine they have a pretty good handle on demand and can sell more and more of the unreserved inventory as the checkin dates get closer. I think the nature of the program with the floating weeks, etc. gives them a lot of latitude to decide what they need to hold back for owners and what they can rent out.

The following is straight from the WKORV disclosures, which supports the statement above:

The "Network Priority Period." It is the sixty (60)-day period immediately preceding the Check-in Day of a given Use Period. During the Network Priority Period, Network Members have limited rights to reserve one or more Use Periods, subject to the Network Rules. In addition, during the Network Priority Period the Developer and, to the extent permitted by law, the Club Operator have the right to reserve Use Periods for their own use such as for rental to the public or for other purposes.


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[ocdb8r]

Every week within the same season and at the same resort is allocated the same number of SOs, just as MVC DC points. I don't understand what you have explained as being a problem.

I think you might have misunderstood what I was saying. A "Platinum" week at SMV is completely equal in both value and cost in VSN.

Every SMV "Platinum" week is not equal in both value and cost in MVC DPs. For cost to reserve those weeks, MVC has created a whole separate division of the weeks (that doesn't map to what constitutes a "Platinum" week at SMV). You are correct, the DP value any Platinum owner receives from MVC is the same, but it equates to an average (minus skim) of the DP value of all the "Platinum" weeks in MVC's "division" of the weeks. The implication of this is that if the SMV "Platinum" season includes a substantial number of weeks that the "MVC division" allocates lower DP values, the average is lower and thus the DPs received is lower.

Catharsis posted this:

SMV @ 3125 versus Summit Watch@4425, MountainSide@5350 or Timber Lodge in Tahoe@4325 seems VERY low - was the SMV valuation for a 1Bed or a 2Bed?

The 3125 DPs mentioned is the valuation of the DPs received by a Platinum week owner at SMV (compared to that received at MVC resorts). The reason for this could be because of the above.

 

[catharsis]

To me the DC points have near zero value (anything that you can rent at the cost of MFs should have zero value)

They can sell me points only if they agree to buy them back from me on the same day. And since they claim the points are worth $15, I would be willing to buy 3000 points at $15 and immediately sell them back at $12 if I could enroll a couple resale weeks at the same time. Everybody wins!

But if they won't buy points at $12, why would I buy at $15???

So given those unfortunate circumstances, I would only pay a fee to enroll a Marriott resale week - but not anything more than $1/point, which is a lot more than I paid for the pre-2010 weeks.

I agree with all of that, but a little like some have been able to retro by purchasing weeks at WKV, similarly Marriott sometime alllow enrolment of existing resale weeks by purchasing deeded weeks outside of the US (Caribbean, Spain, France) - I have done this previously as the purchased weeks had lower MF$/point than DC Points, and might even have some residual value on the resale market, unlike DC Points.

 

[catharsis]

I’m not absolutely convinced they would put a highly desirable ocean front center week in the trust instead of sell it as a deed.

Based on 12 years of Marriott DC behaviour, for resorts within the US there has been zero resales of 'ROFR'ed deeded weeks' within the US that I'm aware of... there were a few 'hybrid' deals when they still had the indirect broker model operation going and would sell weeks on behalf of existing owners, but they did not to my knowledge sell any weeks belonging to Marriott tor acquired by ROFR after the launch of DPs and the creation of the trust... they just take whatever they acquire into the trust, including desirable weeks at MOC as was previously tracked and referred to in this thread.

 

[rickandcindy23]

Based on 12 years of Marriott DC behaviour, for resorts within the US there has been zero resales of 'ROFR'ed deeded weeks' within the US that I'm aware of... there were a few 'hybrid' deals when they still had the indirect broker model operation going and would sell weeks on behalf of existing owners, but they did not to my knowledge sell any weeks belonging to Marriott tor acquired by ROFR after the launch of DPs and the creation of the trust... they just take whatever they acquire into the trust, including desirable weeks at MOC as was previously tracked and referred to in this thread.

How would any of us know? They ROFR some weeks. You think they keep all of those?

 

[catharsis]

How would any of us know? They ROFR some weeks. You think they keep all of those?

Aren't these deeded week real estate transactions and therefore open public records?

Also - has anyone reported on TUG since 2010 that they purchased a week direct from Marriott (as opposed to their 'brokered' resale system, which is no longer operating) ?

You cannot sell something without a buyer, and you cannot sell real estate (weeks) without creating public records, so yes, I do think Marriott keep all ROFR'ed weeks, until there's any signs or evidence to the contrary.

 

[DanCali]

Also - has anyone reported on TUG since 2010 that they purchased a week direct from Marriott (as opposed to their 'brokered' resale system, which is no longer operating) ?

I suspect this happens as part of a transaction involving resale weeks enrollment (and has been reported by tuggers)

They first try to sell you points in exchange for enrolling resale weeks. If you tell them that you don't like the point MFs (ridiculously high) they can get more creative and will sell you a week in exchange for enrolling other resale weeks. However, my experience in such a presentation is that they still price that developer week as if it were points - meaning however many points it converts to x point price. The only difference is the MFs are based on the deeded week.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

What happens when owners want to exit DP points? I hear that resale is around $3 plus $3 enrollment.

Does MVC ever deedback points or will they allow the bottom to fall out of the DP resale market when DP owners (now approaching a decade) want to exit and then will pick them up for free as new inventory for the trust. How easy is it to exit?

 

[Eric B]

If you tell them that you don't like the point MFs (ridiculously high) they can get more creative and will sell you a week in exchange for enrolling other resale weeks.

Seems to me that this would indicate that they don't automatically add any ROFR weeks to the trust - that would require them to remove the weeks from the trust in order to support selling them as deeded, which would complicate the transaction. It might be more likely that Marriott has an inventory of unsold weeks that aren't in the trust that they do this with.

 

[DanCali]

What happens when owners want to exit DP points? I hear that resale is around $3 plus $3 enrollment.

Does MVC ever deedback points or will they allow the bottom to fall out of the DP resale market when DP owners (now approaching a decade) want to exit and then will pick them up for free as new inventory for the trust. How easy is it to exit?

The problem with the $3 "junk fee" is that it's totally up to Marriott. It was $1 in 2010 and raised over time. That obviously also contributes to the decline in resale prices since if a buyer is willing to pay $6, they won't pay $7 if Marriott increases the fee tomorrow by $1. Rather, the part that goes to the actual seller will be lower.

Resale prices bottomed out in the pandemic between $1-$2 and have ticked up slightly, like they did for many deeded weeks. Redweek prices:
Marriott Vacation Club Points for Sale | RedWeek

I don't this they care if the bottom falls out - They can buy at ROFR and resell at full price or they can let it through and make the junk fee. They make money either way.