CLOSED: Thread Dedicated to the Upcoming/Anticipated Integration of Vistana & Marriott Ownerships (Marriott Link + Vistana Discussion)

[sharr7]

How does it work renting DP in MVC? Is it all within a MVC system or do you have to reach the agreement with a buyer and then basically let MVC know to transfer them? Is there a set price or does the seller decide?

 

[kozykritter]

I'm planning to do the same, enroll if at no/low cost.
Going to stick with star options, except for certain locations where there's only MVC.
Renting star options would be great, however guessing that would be available only to flex owners, not deeded weeks.

I would guess that anyone who has a VSN account would likely be able to rent/receive transfer of them. I wonder if as part of this Vistana would suspend its policy of prohibiting renting out reservations made with StarOptions.

 

[kozykritter]

How does it work renting DP in MVC? Is it all within a MVC system or do you have to reach the agreement with a buyer and then basically let MVC know to transfer them? Is there a set price or does the seller decide?

MVC is not involved except to do the actual transfer if you are sending the points to another MVC owner's account. All of your dealings are directly with the person that has the points. If they are making a reservation for you instead of transferring to an MVC account, then that owner makes the reservation in the system or by calling MVC and adds your info to it. You can find points for rent on vacationpointexchange.com. You negotiate the price and go from there.

 

[catharsis]

Tahoe has a big summer season. I think some might argue Park City summer has higher demand than Avon/Vail.

But the comparisons I was doing were for ski weeks- was the 3125 valuation for SMV not for a ski (winter) week?
If it was not, then that would make sense, but I thought I read platinum in the description?

 

[VacationForever]

But the comparisons I was doing were for ski weeks- was the 3125 valuation for SMV not for a ski (winter) week?
If it was not, then that would make sense, but I thought I read platinum in the description?

SMV as a resort is not very desirable, excuse my language to SMV owners. The rest of the resorts on your list are more high end. Also, there is a component of original developer sales price.

 

[DanCali]

$3 a point to qualify week points without getting any extra destination points seems high especially if the underlying week was expensive. For example, it would cost about $25,000 to qualify a Maui every year week but you would get nothing extra for it. When you include the resale price of about $25,000 and possibly more, that would mean paying approx $50,000 or so all in just to enroll it.

To me the DC points have near zero value (anything that you can rent at the cost of MFs should have zero value)

They can sell me points only if they agree to buy them back from me on the same day. And since they claim the points are worth $15, I would be willing to buy 3000 points at $15 and immediately sell them back at $12 if I could enroll a couple resale weeks at the same time. Everybody wins!

But if they won't buy points at $12, why would I buy at $15???

So given those unfortunate circumstances, I would only pay a fee to enroll a Marriott resale week - but not anything more than $1/point, which is a lot more than I paid for the pre-2010 weeks.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

And if they need any inventory, can’t they just get it through ROFR cheaply and then resell it as trust points?

ROFR works for a while but someone must buy those expensive trust points - hence why they are discounting DPs 15x relative to deed enrollment to their base.

Who pays for unsold DP Maintenance fees when an ROFRed unit is deposited in the trust? MVC? or do they pass that on to the DP points holders by dividing by the total points in the trust by the number of purchased DPs? If the latter that sounds like a house of cards because they cannot continue to increase MF's infinitely and not expect people to walk away.

And if the former, MVC doesn't have the financials to carry all of the ROFR maintenance fees for unsold inventory if they ROFR everything. This is where resale deeds come in to alleviate that pressure on their financials.

 

[ocdb8r]

But the comparisons I was doing were for ski weeks- was the 3125 valuation for SMV not for a ski (winter) week?
If it was not, then that would make sense, but I thought I read platinum in the description?

That's the biggest confusion about any election of MVC DPs - they have completely redefined the seasons. As such, what they effectively do is look at the total value of all points they've allocated to all weeks that were sold as platinum by SMV and get an average. As such, if there are weeks that are considered "platinum" by SMV but have been allocated lower points by MVC, then it drags the overall average down (and it's the average you're getting for when you elect DPs).

 

[Markus]

I have been a CFO of companies for last 20 years and it always shocks people when they hear I own timeshares (even more when I tell them how many).

I even have a line “I may be the only person you will ever meet who absolutely loves timeshares”. People really don’t expect it.

Best,

Greg

Ditto on the CFO and many timeshares owned and loving it!

 

[TravelTime]

That's the biggest confusion about any election of MVC DPs - they have completely redefined the seasons. As such, what they effectively do is look at the total value of all points they've allocated to all weeks that were sold as platinum by SMV and get an average. As such, if there are weeks that are considered "platinum" by SMV but have been allocated lower points by MVC, then it drags the overall average down (and it's the average you're getting for when you elect DPs).

Don’t all timeshares have seasons and different point values? All the timeshares I have ever owned have that. What makes MVC different than others?

 

[VacationForever]

That's the biggest confusion about any election of MVC DPs - they have completely redefined the seasons. As such, what they effectively do is look at the total value of all points they've allocated to all weeks that were sold as platinum by SMV and get an average. As such, if there are weeks that are considered "platinum" by SMV but have been allocated lower points by MVC, then it drags the overall average down (and it's the average you're getting for when you elect DPs).

Every week within the same season and at the same resort is allocated the same number of SOs, just as MVC DC points. I don't understand what you have explained as being a problem.

 

[VacationForever]

ROFR works for a while but someone must buy those expensive trust points - hence why they are discounting DPs 15x relative to deed enrollment to their base.

Who pays for unsold DP Maintenance fees when an ROFRed unit is deposited in the trust? MVC? or do they pass that on to the DP points holders by dividing by the total points in the trust by the number of purchased DPs? If the latter that sounds like a house of cards because they cannot continue to increase MF's infinitely and not expect people to walk away.

And if the former, MVC doesn't have the financials to carry all of the ROFR maintenance fees for unsold inventory if they ROFR everything. This is where resale deeds come in to alleviate that pressure on their financials.

MVC pays maintenance fees for all unsold inventory. It is listed in the Maintenance fee statement and annual budget.

 

[rcv82]

Every week within the same season and at the same resort is allocated the same number of SOs, just as MVC DC points. I don't understand what you have explained as being a problem.

This is just back to the “skim” issue again. Every 2 br lock off Westin or Sheraton in ski season Thanksgiving until 3rd week of April is 148,100 SOs (yeah, Steamboat has some premium views that are higher), both to the owner and to use, even though the weeks vary greatly in demand during the season. With DC points, the rate to use the resorts changes almost every week, even though you only get the flat rate. Is this a problem? It depends upon your perspective. But it is certainly VERY different than VSN.


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[rcv82]

MVC pays maintenance fees for all unsold inventory. It is listed in the Maintenance fee statement and annual budget.

They should be for sure. I presume this unsold inventory is primarily what they are renting out from the hotel site. At the poor exchange rate, I doubt much of the hotel site inventory is coming from owners electing Bonvoy points.


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[VacationForever]

This is just back to the “skim” issue again. Every 2 br lock off Westin or Sheraton in ski season Thanksgiving until 3rd week of April is 148,100 SOs (yeah, Steamboat has some premium views that are higher), both to the owner and to use, even though the weeks vary greatly in demand during the season. With DC points, the rate to use the resorts changes almost every week, even though you only get the flat rate. Is this a problem? It depends upon your perspective. But it is certainly VERY different than VSN.


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We all need to stop comparing SOs with DC points. If you own at your resort, you can keep using your week. SOs mean nothing in the MVC DC system. Skim comes in when you elect DC and try to book into peak period in your own season. I hated skim until I realized that I can come out even or better. I usually do a 12-night stay and skip one Fri and one Sat nights. With Presidential level, I also get 30 percent discount at 60 days.

 

[DanCali]

This is just back to the “skim” issue again. Every 2 br lock off Westin or Sheraton in ski season Thanksgiving until 3rd week of April is 148,100 SOs (yeah, Steamboat has some premium views that are higher), both to the owner and to use, even though the weeks vary greatly in demand during the season. With DC points, the rate to use the resorts changes almost every week, even though you only get the flat rate. Is this a problem? It depends upon your perspective. But it is certainly VERY different than VSN.


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We all need to stop comparing SOs with DC points. If you own at your resort, you can keep using your week. SOs mean nothing in the MVC DC system. Skim comes in when you elect DC and try to book into peak period in your own season. I hated skim until I realized that I can come out even or better. I usually do a 12-night stay and skip one Fri and one Sat nights. With Presidential level, I also get 30 percent discount at 60 days.

The aligning of point requirement with demand for particular weeks is not a problem per se and should not be confused with skim. Neither should the lack of ability to book the high demand weeks in your season.

If some weeks in your season have a different point requirement, you can compute the average points required to book a week in your season. Call that "Fair Value"
If that number would be equal to what you got if you elected your week for points, there really would be no "skim".
That still wouldn't mean that you could book every week in your season with points - high demand weeks would be out of reach, while you could book maybe 8-10 nights in the lower demand weeks. Use your week as a week to book the high demand weeks. But there would be no skim in this case because if everyone converted to points, then those points would be enough to book all the weeks in the season (like Vistana). It wouldn't be feasible and probably not legal to give you more points than that "Fair Value".

As it happens, the points owners get are 6%-9% below that aforementioned average of points required to book a week in a season. That's "skim"... Some weeks would still be out of reach, while you could still maybe book 8-9 nights in the lower demand weeks. But you got less than the "Fair Value".

Skim is easy to see if all weeks in the season had the same point requirement, and you got less than that. As an extreme example, my Newport Coast Platinum Plus week is a single-week season (Week 26). It is 5675 points to book that week and I get 5300 if I elect points. I lose 6.6% to skim.

With weeks like WKV 2BR Platinum it's harder to spot the skim. The Platinum season is 23 weeks. There are 12 weeks in that season that require 5400 points to book. There are 6 weeks that require 2950. The other 5 weeks are 3800. We don't get skimmed just because we get less than 5400 (the most expensive weeks). We get skimmed because the average per Platinum season week is 4413 (Fair Value) and we get 4050, or 8.2% less. With 4050 I can still book 8-10 nights during 6 of the weeks in the season. But it's less than what Fair Value would be. And if you got the Fair amount of 4413 points you still couldn't book 12 weeks in your season with points because they require 5400 points to book, but they couldn't feasibly give you more than that. You don't have to elect points to book those weeks.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

MVC pays maintenance fees for all unsold inventory. It is listed in the Maintenance fee statement and annual budget.

So this suggests that MVC does not throw every ROFR into the trust and must dispose of the deeds via resale channels to get them off of their books. As the MVC population ages out we can expect resale inventory to increase over the next 10 - 20 years as people exit for health and other reasons unless MVC finds a way to sell more DP points and put more of those ROFR deeds into the trust.

 

[VacationForever]

So this suggests that MVC does not throw every ROFR into the trust and must dispose of the deeds via resale channels to get them off of their books. As the MVC population ages out we can expect resale inventory to increase over the next 10 - 20 years as people exit for health and other reasons unless MVC finds a way to sell more DP points and put more of those ROFR deeds into the trust.

Why do you think that MVC resells the deeds? They are selling DC points like hot cakes and deeds that are acquired through ROFR do go into the trust. They will always be paying MF on unsold trust points but they will also generate revenue by renting them out via marriott.com.

 

[TravelTime]

We all need to stop comparing SOs with DC points. If you own at your resort, you can keep using your week. SOs mean nothing in the MVC DC system. Skim comes in when you elect DC and try to book into peak period in your own season. I hated skim until I realized that I can come out even or better. I usually do a 12-night stay and skip one Fri and one Sat nights. With Presidential level, I also get 30 percent discount at 60 days.

Agreed. Being a relatively new timeshare owner, I am not as knowledgeable or experienced using MVC or SOs as others. I think all TS systems have pros and cons. I do not think DPs and SOs are comparable either. Plus you can keep what you have and use it like you do now. I am not entirely worried about how many DPs my Vistana week converts to if I am not going to do it. Most Vistana on this thread are not going to pay to convert so it becomes irrelevant. If you can get enrollment for free or low cost, then it’s the best of all worlds. If you get a benefit for free or little money, then I would just be grateful for the option to use whichever program suits my needs at the time. Many Tuggers love the trades they get from II and especially when they get a better value out of the trade. OTOH, many people do not like II. To me, these are all just options and we use what works for us.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

Why do you think that MVC resells the deeds? They are selling DC points like hot cakes and deeds that are acquired through ROFR do go into the trust. They will always be paying MF on unsold trust points but they will also generate revenue by renting them out via marriott.com.

What proof do you have that DPs are being sold like hotcakes other than being forced upon existing owners to enroll or requal deeds?

I do buy the rental argument as a source of income. Are you saying they are not recirculating resale deeds back into the market at all? Asked another way: Are they ROFRing every resale?

 

[TravelTime]

The aligning of point requirement with demand for particular weeks is not a problem per se and should not be confused with skim. Neither should the lack of ability to book the high demand weeks in your season.

If some weeks in your season have a different point requirement, you can compute the average points required to book a week in your season. Call that "Fair Value"
If that number would be equal to what you got if you elected your week for points, there really would be no "skim".
That still wouldn't mean that you could book every week in your season with points - high demand weeks would be out of reach, while you could book maybe 8-10 nights in the lower demand weeks. Use your week as a week to book the high demand weeks. But there would be no skim in this case because if everyone converted to points, then those points would be enough to book all the weeks in the season (like Vistana). It wouldn't be feasible and probably not legal to give you more points than that "Fair Value".

As it happens, the points owners get are 6%-9% below that aforementioned average of points required to book a week in a season. That's "skim"... Some weeks would still be out of reach, while you could still maybe book 8-9 nights in the lower demand weeks. But you got less than the "Fair Value".

Skim is easy to see if all weeks in the season had the same point requirement, and you got less than that. As an extreme example, my Newport Coast Platinum Plus week is a single-week season (Week 26). It is 5675 points to book that week and I get 5300 if I elect points. I lose 6.6% to skim.

With weeks like WKV 2BR Platinum it's harder to spot the skim. The Platinum season is 23 weeks. There are 12 weeks in that season that require 5400 points to book. There are 6 weeks that require 2950. The other 5 weeks are 3800. We don't get skimmed just because we get less than 5400 (the most expensive weeks). We get skimmed because the average per Platinum season week is 4413 (Fair Value) and we get 4050, or 8.2% less. With 4050 I can still book 8-10 nights during 6 of the weeks in the season. But it's less than what Fair Value would be. And if you got the Fair amount of 4413 points you still couldn't book 12 weeks in your season with points because they require 5400 points to book, but they couldn't feasibly give you more than that. You don't have to elect points to book those weeks.

The concern about skim or getting few points than the highest demand weeks is confusing to me. I am confused as to why this is such a big deal if you can still use your week as a week. There is a reason when people decide to elect DPs for an enrolled week. So if you are choosing that option to get something you want instead of using your home resort, why is it a bad thing?

In Vistana, there is also skim. For example, with 176K SOs, I need to plan exactly how I will divide up those points if I do not use them at my home resort. Otherwise, I can lose SOs.

 

[daviator]

What proof do you have that DPs are being sold like hotcakes other than being forced upon existing owners to enroll or requal deeds?

I do buy the rental argument as a source of income. Are you saying they are not recirculating resale deeds back into the market at all?

As soon as the developer (MVC/Vistana) reacquires a "resale deed", it's not a resale deed any more. It's just part of their inventory, which, going forward, I expect they'll mostly (if not completely) deposit into the DC trust. Every time they do so, it increases their inventory of DC points which are now (or very soon) their primary product to sell.

To the extent a VOI is "tainted" as a resale VOI, that taint disappears forever when the VOI is reacquired by the developer. And since (in theory, at least) they are no longer selling deeded weeks, once a week is deposited into the DC trust it will likely never become a deeded week again.

I'm confused by the notion that MVC/Vistana would do something special with previously-resold VOIs which they acquire by ROFR, deedback, etc. There's nothing special about those VOIs, they just go back into inventory... and inventory in the future will only take the form of DC points. Right?

 

[CalGalTraveler]

I'm confused by the notion that MVC/Vistana would do something special with previously-resold VOIs which they acquire by ROFR, deedback, etc. There's nothing special about those VOIs, they just go back into inventory... and inventory in the future will only take the form of DC points. Right?

It sounds like they would pass on ROFR and thus it goes back into the resale market unless they are ROFRing 100% of resale deeds.

 

[Eric B]

As soon as the developer (MVC/Vistana) reacquires a "resale deed", it's not a resale deed any more. It's just part of their inventory, which, going forward, I expect they'll mostly (if not completely) deposit into the DC trust. Every time they do so, it increases their inventory of DC points which are now (or very soon) their primary product to sell.

To the extent a VOI is "tainted" as a resale VOI, that taint disappears forever when the VOI is reacquired by the developer. And since (in theory, at least) they are no longer selling deeded weeks, once a week is deposited into the DC trust it will likely never become a deeded week again.

I'm confused by the notion that MVC/Vistana would do something special with previously-resold VOIs which they acquire by ROFR, deedback, etc. There's nothing special about those VOIs, they just go back into inventory... and inventory in the future will only take the form of DC points. Right?

I’m not absolutely convinced they would put a highly desirable ocean front center week in the trust instead of sell it as a deed.

 

[daviator]

In Vistana, there is also skim. For example, with 176K SOs, I need to plan exactly how I will divide up those points if I do not use them at my home resort. Otherwise, I can lose SOs.

Losing SOs in that manner isn't the same as skim. Yes, you have to plan carefully, and if you end up with extra SOs, there are some other ways you can get value from them (resort credit, etc.) even if the value isn't great. But with Vistana it's always possible to get the same value from your SOs as existed in the ownership that generated those SOs. The 176K SOs that you get from your ownership can be used to book that same unit for 176K even after the home resort booking period ends. Whereas with DPs, if you elect to take points, you will never have enough to book the unit and week that those points came from.