CLOSED: Thread Dedicated to the Upcoming/Anticipated Integration of Vistana & Marriott Ownerships (Marriott Link + Vistana Discussion)

[DanCali]

I believe resale units will always be able to convert. Why?

Because if resale cannot convert, the amount of enrolled inventory in DP will decline over time as owners sell or age out. At some point, it becomes a resale that someone must buy unless MVC plans to ROFR every deed and eliminate the resale market (doubt MVC could afford to do this).

Bottom line: Over time, a retail deed becomes a resale deed so resale deeds increase while retail deeds decline (if they don't add new properties.)

I heard that the average age of an MVC owner is about 55 - 60? If they exit in the next 10 - 15 years many of those VUIs become resales that cannot participate in DP according to this rule.

Hence they will likely offer resale promotions (aka amnesty) to get more prime inventory qualified into the DP program.

I don't think they care about inventory in the DC. Nobody really knows what the inventory is. If you can't book something you don't know if it's lack of adequate inventory or if someone beat you to it. No matter how much or little inventory there is, they can still sell points at ~$15/point based on the promise of access to 90+ resorts.

Yes, there will be promotions to enroll resale weeks. Vistana has had them for at least as long as I've been on tug, and so did Marriott since the launch of the DC. But it's not because they care about inventory. It's because they convince people to pay $30K+ so they can toggle a virtual "enrolled" switch from "off" to "on" in their account and get them to buy some points they don't need that Marriott picked up the prior month at ROFR at 10% of retail price. That's all a pretty high margin business...

 

[TravelTime]

And if they need any inventory, can’t they just get it through ROFR cheaply and then resell it as trust points?

 

[Mroze]

It's because they convince people to pay $30K so they can toggle a virtual "enrolled" switch from "off" to "on" in their account and get them to buy some points they don't need that Marriott picked up the prior month at ROFR at 10% of retail price. That's all a pretty high margin business...

So true.

It really is a flip of an electron.
The unit has already been paid for by a previous owner.
The same is being resold for pennies on the dollar and Marriott stands to collect tolls [$30K] each time it switches hands.
Need to buy some VAC.

 

[VacationForever]

When SVN (predecessor to VSN) was launched by Starwood, existing Vistana deeded owners were given the opportunity to enroll for a relatively low price. I don’t recall how much my parents paid to join SVN - but I believe it was under $500 at the time. This gave a large influx of voluntary resort VOIs with SO.

Was this offer given only to developer-purchased weeks?

 

[dioxide45]

I think you’ve pointed out a key and important issue, and one that has implications for VSN.

When SVN (predecessor to VSN) was launched by Starwood, existing Vistana deeded owners were given the opportunity to enroll for a relatively low price. I don’t recall how much my parents paid to join SVN - but I believe it was under $500 at the time. This gave a large influx of voluntary resort VOIs with SO.

As those voluntary resorts were resold, they lost their SO and were taken out of SVN and decreasing SO availability. Thus, Vistana needed a way to restore inventory that was being depleted; hence the ability to retro.

I don’t know the genesis of the retro program, but from what I have gleaned on TUG, retros used to require a purchase of $20k per VOI brought in, $8-10k of which had to be new money (net of any trade-ins). Hawaii developer purchased weeks had higher minimums.

Over time the minimum needed to bring in a VOI has dropped substantially, with $10k for the initial VOI and $5k for additional now being required. The only reason I can think of for dropping the minimum is to keep up the voluntary resort inventory in the SO system (it also had the benefit of helping sell Flex, but the minimum was falling even before then).

Given the standard TUG advice for Vistana owners has been to buy a resale mandatory unit, I’m not sure how many owners here have developer purchased voluntary weeks, so we’ve been more focused on losing our VSN mandatory privileges.

The bigger threat I think comes from what may happen if MVC does allow resales to be requalified. Would they also restore a Vistana voluntary resort into VSN, or would it only be allowed to play in the DP sandbox? If they don’t allow resales to be restored into VSN, over time that inventory will shrink, and all that may be left are the mandatory resorts (which are some of the more desirable).

This admittedly is a long ways off before it becomes a serious problem, but for those of us with longer travel horizons (I hope to travel for another 30 years at least) it is something to think about.

I beleive Visana did something for Los Cabos Baja Point owners when they picked up that property just a few years ago. There was someone here that reported an offer to bring their ownership into VSN. I don't know what the cost was, if any.

 

[TravelTime]

It’s interesting how active this thread is on Vistana but there is little mention of the integration on the Marriott board. Is there any impact on Marriott people?

 

[dioxide45]

It’s interesting how active this thread is on Vistana but there is little mention of the integration on the Marriott board. Is there any impact on Marriott people?

I think this impacts Vistana owners much more than Marriott owners. For enrolled Marriott owners, they will just have some new resorts that they might be able to book (as long as a Vistana owner elected DC points). Nothing really changes how a Marriott owner would use their ownership or points. The change is much more drastic for a Vistana owner.

 

[VacationForever]

It’s interesting how active this thread is on Vistana but there is little mention of the integration on the Marriott board. Is there any impact on Marriott people?

Those Marriott snobs don't care.

 

[TravelTime]

Those Marriott snobs don't care.

I do not think there are any snobs who own timeshares. If anything, I keep it a secret to avoid ridicule. LOL

 

[TravelTime]

I think this impacts Vistana owners much more than Marriott owners. For enrolled Marriott owners, they will just have some new resorts that they might be able to book (as long as a Vistana owner elected DC points). Nothing really changes how a Marriott owner would use their ownership or points. The change is much more drastic for a Vistana owner.

A possible downside for MVC owners might be more competition for the most desirable resorts. This could make it more critical to stay up or wake up right when the booking window opens. I think Vistana owners are worried about the same thing.

 

[remowidget]

Strangely this is both TRUE & FALSE.

• TRUE: Once the Full-Launch is rolled out; it will not be possible to enroll Vistana units into the VSN by purchasing Flex as new Flex sales will stop.
  • Economical. Purchase $10K of Flex to qualify 1-Contract, followed by $5K for each additional contract.
• FALSE: There will always be opportunities to enroll Vistana-Resales [as well as Marriott-Resales] into the Marriott Destination-Program by purchasing DP's [todays rate $15.92/Point].
  • Expensive. Purchase 2500-DCP [10%-Discounted: $36K] to qualify 1-Contract. 3500-DCP [15%-Discounted: $48K] for 2-Contracts. 5000-DCP [20%-Discounted: $64K] for 3-7-Contratcs.
  • If sales are to be believed, these prices could rise by 20% post Full-Launch.

Incentives: All of the above retros come with incentives like Bonvoy-Points and/or DCP-Points + Discounts. However, it still nets out to be north of $30K and up to $60K.
Each contract retro'd comes with an additional closing cost of approximately $1K.

I think there is a real possibility that a different enrollment could happen. While I am sure you are correct about being able to enroll vistana weeks in the future, will they still be Vistana weeks? It's very possible that enrolling could move your resale ownership into MVC Destination Club and you would have DPs. Voluntary/mandatory status would go away because they wouldn't be vistana weeks anymore. If this were to happen, you would be paying Marriott maintenance fees rather than Vistana week ownership maintenance fees. I'm guessing Marriott maintenance would be more expensive.

 

[jabberwocky]

Was this offer given only to developer-purchased weeks?

To be honest I don’t know. My parents did buy developer (SVR) way back in early 1996 (could have been 1995) - not sure how many resale units were out there at the time as that was an expansionary period. Back then “Vistana” really did just mean Vistana as they only had a couple of locations operating. I believe my parents paid $11k for their 2BR back then.

Funny part is, up until around 2016 my dad was still using II (and paying an exchange fee) to rebook himself back into SVR even though he had SO.That stopped after I showed him how easy it was to exchange using SO and how he could extend their trip by a few days since they liked to go during slower periods.

 

[jabberwocky]

I think there is a real possibility that a different enrollment could happen. While I am sure you are correct about being able to enroll vistana weeks in the future, will they still be Vistana weeks? It's very possible that enrolling could move your resale ownership into MVC Destination Club and you would have DPs. Voluntary/mandatory status would go away because they wouldn't be vistana weeks anymore. If this were to happen, you would be paying Marriott maintenance fees rather than Vistana week ownership maintenance fees. I'm guessing Marriott maintenance would be more expensive.

I can see the enrolled resale voluntary weeks not being part of VSN in the future - but the mandatory weeks have to be in VSN. It’s written into the underlying covenants.

Maintenance fees are paid based on the TS Association you are in to cover the expenses of running the resort. I don’t think there would be a difference in MF because you are in Marrriott vs. Vistana if it is at the same resort.

 

[VacationForever]

To be honest I don’t know. My parents did buy developer (SVR) way back in early 1996 (could have been 1995) - not sure how many resale units were out there at the time as that was an expansionary period. Back then “Vistana” really did just mean Vistana as they only had a couple of locations operating. I believe my parents paid $11k for their 2BR back then.

Funny part is, up until around 2016 my dad was still using II (and paying an exchange fee) to rebook himself back into SVR even though he had SO.That stopped after I showed him how easy it was to exchange using SO and how he could extend their trip by a few days since they liked to go during slower periods.

I am familiar with SVR. I bought in 1996 pre-constuction and was offered enrollment into SVN when it was first formed. I think initially it was something like $299. I didn't take up the offer and every year they would send us mail with the invitation again, with enrollment price going up each year. I think it was around 2011 when they sent me final offer of $599 and that they would no longer make me the offer again. I accepted it then. When they had the huge special assessment on SVR in 2008, they offered all older phases of SVR owners, including resale owners, to join SVN as an incentive to lessen the blow. Cascade and Lakes resale owners did not get the offer because they were able to differentiate between developer bought weeks as they were later purchases. I also paid $11K and as a 2br l/o in Lakes phase, I get 95700 SOs for the week. My fixed week is in high season but it floats 1-52, so I am anxious and curious as to what my week will convert to in DC.

 

[remowidget]

I can see the enrolled resale voluntary weeks not being part of VSN in the future - but the mandatory weeks have to be in VSN. It’s written into the underlying covenants.

Maintenance fees are paid based on the TS Association you are in to cover the expenses of running the resort. I don’t think there would be a difference in MF because you are in Marrriott vs. Vistana if it is at the same resort.

What I'm trying to say is they could take your week and give you trust points instead as the way of bringing your week into the system. The week would be removed from VSN circulation. Mandatory weeks would not be in VSN, because now they would be owned by the Marriott DCP Trust.

I own Lagunamar, so here is my example for a Platinum 2 bedroom lockoff unit.
My 2022 Vistana Maintenance was $1653.92 per week, plus VSN fees.
Rumor has it, this will get 4950 DC points, which would be:
$0.62796×4,950 = $3108.40
The price difference would be less for gold week owners as they would likely get less DC points.

They could do this for post 2010 Marriott resale weeks as well. I suspect they have been moving weeks into the trust for years as they aquire take backs, foreclosures, and ROFRs.

By the way, they already own over 5,000 Lagunamar weeks. I got this from our owners report. I'm assuming these will be directly moved into Marriott.

 

[TravelTime]

What I'm trying to say is they could take your week and give you trust points instead as the way of bringing your week into the system. The week would be removed from VSN circulation. Mandatory weeks would not be in VSN, because now they would be owned by the Marriott DCP Trust.

I own Lagunamar, so here is my example for a Platinum 2 bedroom lockoff unit.
My 2022 Vistana Maintenance was $1653.92 per week, plus VSN fees.
Rumor has it, this will get 4950 DC points, which would be:
$0.62796×4,950 = $3108.40
The price difference would be less for gold week owners as they would likely get less DC points.

They could do this for post 2010 Marriott resale weeks as well. I suspect they have been moving weeks into the trust for years as they aquire take backs, foreclosures, and ROFRs.

By the way, they already own over 5,000 Lagunamar weeks. I got this from our owners report. I'm assuming these will be directly moved into Marriott.
View attachment 52920

Since you still own the underlying week, wouldn’t MFs stay the same? I have two enrolled MVC weeks that I can elect DPs for. I still pay MFs based on the week and not the DP rate for these weeks. It would be an incredible deal if you could elect 4950 DPs yet still only pay the Lagunamar MF. Is it a developer-purchased week?

 

[Mroze]

What I'm trying to say is they could take your week and give you trust points instead as the way of bringing your week into the system. The week would be removed from VSN circulation. Mandatory weeks would not be in VSN, because now they would be owned by the Marriott DCP Trust.

I own Lagunamar, so here is my example for a Platinum 2 bedroom lockoff unit.
My 2022 Vistana Maintenance was $1653.92 per week, plus VSN fees.
Rumor has it, this will get 4950 DC points, which would be:
$0.62796×4,950 = $3108.40
The price difference would be less for gold week owners as they would likely get less DC points.

They could do this for post 2010 Marriott resale weeks as well. I suspect they have been moving weeks into the trust for years as they aquire take backs, foreclosures, and ROFRs.

By the way, they already own over 5,000 Lagunamar weeks. I got this from our owners report. I'm assuming these will be directly moved into Marriott.
View attachment 52920

We own 3 x EOY-2BR-WLR-PLAT+ which has the lowest MF in the entire VSN-Network.
Has been excellent value. 148.1K-SO exchanged 4-Summers into 12-Nights Harborside [153.1K-SO] and more.
Excellent Trading-Power. Multiple Hawaii-Trips [2/3-WKS-Each] via INTERVAL [Studio/1BR] which resulted in ~$120-$150/Night in a 2BR Maui, Princeville.

If this were to happen, our MF would double overnight.
Hope we have the option to forego the 4950-DP and stay with the 1481.K-SO for ~$1650-MF.

 

[VacationForever]

What I'm trying to say is they could take your week and give you trust points instead as the way of bringing your week into the system. The week would be removed from VSN circulation. Mandatory weeks would not be in VSN, because now they would be owned by the Marriott DCP Trust.

I own Lagunamar, so here is my example for a Platinum 2 bedroom lockoff unit.
My 2022 Vistana Maintenance was $1653.92 per week, plus VSN fees.
Rumor has it, this will get 4950 DC points, which would be:
$0.62796×4,950 = $3108.40
The price difference would be less for gold week owners as they would likely get less DC points.

They could do this for post 2010 Marriott resale weeks as well. I suspect they have been moving weeks into the trust for years as they aquire take backs, foreclosures, and ROFRs.

By the way, they already own over 5,000 Lagunamar weeks. I got this from our owners report. I'm assuming these will be directly moved into Marriott.
View attachment 52920

They cannot legally do that. You own the RTU at Lagunamar and pay MF based on that one resort. If they take your week without your consent and results in your paying higher MF, VAC will be shutdown faster than you can say, wait...what.

 

[Red elephant]

I can see the enrolled resale voluntary weeks not being part of VSN in the future - but the mandatory weeks have to be in VSN. It’s written into the underlying covenants.

Maintenance fees are paid based on the TS Association you are in to cover the expenses of running the resort. I don’t think there would be a difference in MF because you are in Marrriott vs. Vistana if it is at the same resort.

I thought enrolling a resale week meant being a part of VSN. How can that be taken away once qualified ?

 

[GregT]

I do not think there are any snobs who own timeshares. If anything, I keep it a secret to avoid ridicule. LOL

I have been a CFO of companies for last 20 years and it always shocks people when they hear I own timeshares (even more when I tell them how many).

I even have a line “I may be the only person you will ever meet who absolutely loves timeshares”. People really don’t expect it.

Best,

Greg

 

[jabberwocky]

I thought enrolling a resale week meant being a part of VSN. How can that be taken away once qualified ?

If it isn’t mandatory resale they could simply only enroll you into MVC DP with a qualifying developer purchase and not enroll you into VSN.

 

[jabberwocky]

What I'm trying to say is they could take your week and give you trust points instead as the way of bringing your week into the system. The week would be removed from VSN circulation. Mandatory weeks would not be in VSN, because now they would be owned by the Marriott DCP Trust.

I own Lagunamar, so here is my example for a Platinum 2 bedroom lockoff unit.
My 2022 Vistana Maintenance was $1653.92 per week, plus VSN fees.
Rumor has it, this will get 4950 DC points, which would be:
$0.62796×4,950 = $3108.40
The price difference would be less for gold week owners as they would likely get less DC points.

They could do this for post 2010 Marriott resale weeks as well. I suspect they have been moving weeks into the trust for years as they aquire take backs, foreclosures, and ROFRs.

By the way, they already own over 5,000 Lagunamar weeks. I got this from our owners report. I'm assuming these will be directly moved into Marriott.
View attachment 52920

Ah - now I understand what you are saying. I do think they may try this route for a segment. Although I’m not sure how much credit they would want to give you for your owned weeks. They may just want you to continue owning the week you have and then have you buy a minimum of DP. There seems to always be plenty of resale DP for them to recycle as well.

The Lagunamar chart is interesting, particularly as the Flex weeks haven’t increased over the years.I thought they were being pretty aggressive in selling Aventuras as a way to access WLR. Are the numbers in the first column under each year the # of VOIs? It looks like the MF paid by developer are about 68% higher than the Aventuras owners, and those owned by individuals are twice as much. I suspect this may mean there are more 1BR in Aventuras relative to developer and individual owned VOIs.

 

[rickandcindy23]

This is the BS I was given by everyone from Marriott. In fairness, the Vistana people are clueless and did not say this.

I asked the exact same Q: "Why do I need to pay to enroll my Direct-Purchased Vistana-Weeks. I already paid north of $100K to Vistana?"
Quotes
"Marriott purchased [did NOT merge] Vistana for $B."
"Vistana-Owners [Direct/Enrolled/Resale] need to Pay-To-Play in the new system."
"The DCP-System opens up much more access to Marriott-Inventory for which you did not pay". "This is an enhanced benefit for which you need to pay"

There may be some truth, but I believe more an incentive to use fear to sell more.
We will know for sure in a couple of months. Hopefully sooner.

I was assured that nothing would be taken away and that I could continue to use my VSN as-is.
However, down the road [many years later] things could change.

That is a terrible answer from Marriott.

This is why I keep what I bought and don't do anything. Maybe they will allow me to make a purchase and enroll my SBP prime summer deeds. If they do that, I would consider it for a good price. I just don't see how it would help me because those are something we rent out successfully each year. Last year, our daughter rented every single week. Every one.

 

[rickandcindy23]

I do not think there are any snobs who own timeshares. If anything, I keep it a secret to avoid ridicule. LOL

Yes, I know of a few people who think we are just plain stupid for buying timeshares.

 

[vacationtime1]

Yes, I know of a few people who think we are just plain stupid for buying timeshares.

Yes, they think I'm stupid.
Yes, they envy my vacations.