CLOSED: Thread Dedicated to the Upcoming/Anticipated Integration of Vistana & Marriott Ownerships (Marriott Link + Vistana Discussion)

[Eric B]

Can you exchange into a week 51 anywhere or just where you own?

If you get lucky and one becomes available within 8 months, you can. I own a fixed week 51 in WSJ and a couple of other fixed platinum plus weeks earlier in the year. What I did this year was to switch the earlier weeks to SOs when I got to the 8-month point on their check in dates, then kept checking for week 51 or 52 availability to book as home weeks when the float period opened. You would be competing with others like me with home floats at 12 months.

In any case, the way fixed week ownership works is that at 18 months, your reservation at your home resort in the type or unit you own is tentatively booked but needs to be confirmed by the 12 month point. You don’t have a right to book week 51 anywhere else.

 

[tstiv1996]

What we think we know so far
Conversion is an annual election only, it’s not permanent. (Vistana owners really win here)
You can convert to DC points if you purchased directly from Vistana or made a purchase to enroll a resale
You can convert only your whole ownership, if you own a two bedroom you have to convert the whole two bedroom
You’ll pay a new VSN fee called a club fee which will remove other fees like banking, interval internal exchange fees, etc
Depending on how many DC points your VSN ownerships convert to will determine your Marriott vacation club status
Resale units not enrolled cannot convert (unofficially)
If you do nothing you’ll get to use your ownership as you do today which includes star options usage in the VSN.

Sales lies: none of the above is true unless you buy another ownership TODAY!

This is the most important comment in this thread I think?

 

[Eric B]

Minor differences:

Pre-2010
Marriott did not spend $B to purchase another TS-Company.
Marriott-Owners were at a disadvantage [NO Internal-System to Exchange] and could only Exchange into other Marriott's via an External-System [INTERVAL] competing with Non-Marriott.
Marriott provided its owners with an Internal-Exchange system that was missing to exchange into the EXACT-SAME Marriott's [NO Net-New].

VSN-Purchase
Marriott spent Big $ to purchase VSN.
VSN-Owners have an existing Internal-Exchange system.
VSN-Owners now have the ability to expand their exchange options [Net-New].

You could well be right and they may indeed believe that the sunk costs of the purchase justify treating Vistana resale owners differently. My point, however, is that they might also be considering Vistana resale owners as potential sales prospects instead and treat them the way they treated and are treating Marriott resale owners as potential sales prospects. Time will tell and the purchase cost is already spent.

 

[Mroze]

You could well be right and they may indeed believe that the sunk costs of the purchase justify treating Vistana resale owners differently. My point, however, is that they might also be considering Vistana resale owners as potential sales prospects instead and treat them the way they treated and are treating Marriott resale owners as potential sales prospects. Time will tell and the purchase cost is already spent.

Current Marriot Resale-Owners [Post-2010] have to pay upwards of $35K to enroll a single contract.

 

[Red elephant]

Agree that FREE is always the best.

However, here is a scenario that Marriott will have to contend with for future sales.

• Direct-Purchase: EY-2BR WKORV-N [148100-SO]: $100K+
• Ebay-Sale: EY-2BR Harborside [148100-SO]: $1

Both enrolled for FREE within the NEW Marriott-DP System. Both accrue DCP-Points and enjoy the exact same benefits.
How will Marriott convince future buyers [short of them unaware of the amnesty history] to purchase Direct?

Marriott will have to choose between pissing-off

• Loyal Direct-Purchase Owners VS
  • Why did I spend all this money when I could have ...?
• Resale Purchase Owners
  • Why should I give you one more $?

Not sure they can satisfy both.

Haha their intention is to make more money not satisfy a minority of resale owners who already got what they paid for. We shall see.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

Resale units not enrolled cannot convert (unofficially)

Agree. this is a great summary.

I believe resale units will always be able to convert. Why?

Because if resale cannot convert, the amount of enrolled inventory in DP will decline over time as owners sell or age out. At some point, it becomes a resale that someone must buy unless MVC plans to ROFR every deed and eliminate the resale market (doubt MVC could afford to do this).

Bottom line: Over time, a retail deed becomes a resale deed so resale deeds increase while retail deeds decline (if they don't add new properties.)

I heard that the average age of an MVC owner is about 55 - 60? If they exit in the next 10 - 15 years many of those VUIs become resales that cannot participate in DP according to this rule.

Hence they will likely offer resale promotions (aka amnesty) to get more prime inventory qualified into the DP program.

 

[Red elephant]

Current Marriot Resale-Owners [Post-2010] have to pay upwards of $35K to enroll a single contract.
[/QUOTE
They will treat Vistana resale owners the same way as current Marriott resale owners.

 

[Mroze]

Agree. this is a great summary.

I believe resale units will always be able to convert. Why?

This is 100% accurate.
Resale owners will always have an option to enroll [at a price].

Don't believe any sales-person driving fear to quickly enroll [before Full-Launch] or else.
Post Soft-Launch, there will still be an option for all resale-owners.

 

[Red elephant]

This is the most important comment in this thread I think?

Totally agree. It should be reposted when someone has a question .

 

[Red elephant]

This is 100% accurate.
Resale owners will always have an option to enroll [at a price].

Don't believe any sales-person driving fear to quickly enroll [before Full-Launch] or else.
Post Soft-Launch, there will still be an option for all resale-owners.

Correct they should tell us what price instead of us sitting hoping it’s free.

 

[TravelTime]

Current Marriot Resale-Owners [Post-2010] have to pay upwards of $35K to enroll a single contract.

Might be true for an annual but you are buying more points when you spend $35,000 so the total cost per point, when you also include what you paid resale for the week you are enrolling, can average to $5 pp. I know some people who even averaged out to $4 pp. I bought a week direct from MVC in 2018 and my price pp was $5.

The offer they made me this week to buy 1000 points averaged out to $6 pp even including how much I paid for WKOVRN on the resale market. I am sure I could have negotiated them down but I did not want to spend any more money to enroll right now.

There are other Tuggers who spent $50K or $60 K for more points but they were allowed to enroll many weeks. @frank808 I believe you are an example of someone who has gotten incredible enrollment offers. If you do not mind sharing, how many weeks did you enroll, how much did you pay to enroll all those weeks and what was the cost pp after taking into account what you also paid resale for those weeks?

 

[TravelTime]

This is 100% accurate.
Resale owners will always have an option to enroll [at a price].

Don't believe any sales-person driving fear to quickly enroll [before Full-Launch] or else.
Post Soft-Launch, there will still be an option for all resale-owners.

Agree…this is why I am in wait and see mode. There will always be a hybrid package offer that is a lot lower than paying retail prices for points.

 

[TravelTime]

This is the most important comment in this thread I think?

I agree this is likely very accurate. It is also pretty obvious this will happen, almost a no brainer. Of course, if you already own an enrolled Vistana week you will be allowed to convert into DPs. Why not? The real question is what will be the cost to enroll resale weeks.

 

[Mroze]

Might be true for an annual but you are buying more points when you spend $35,000 so the total cost per point, when you also include what you paid resale for the week you are enrolling, can average to $5 pp. I know some people who even averaged out to $4 pp. I bought a week direct from MVC in 2018 and my price pp was $5.

The offer they made me this week to buy 1000 points averaged out to $6 pp even including how much I paid for WKOVRN on the resale market. I am sure I could have negotiated them down but I did not want to spend any more money to enroll right now.

There are other Tuggers who spent $50K or $60 K for more points but they were allowed to enroll many weeks. @frank808 I believe you are an example of someone who has gotten incredible enrollment offers. If you do not mind sharing, how many weeks did you enroll, how much did you pay to enroll all those weeks and what was the cost pp after taking into account what you also paid resale for those weeks?

Then it's a no-brainer.
Everyone wins. Sarcasm.

I am also inheriting the worst of the worst Op-Ex.

• NO Deeded-Week [35c - 45c/Point]. Points keep getting devalued.
• Highest Maintenance-Fees [except Hawaii] at 65c/Point that rise consistently.
• Instant-Deprectation: Vapor ware that's worthless [Purchase $15-Point --> Sale: $3/Point] in the resale market.

Here is a chart of MF YOY since 2012. +50% increase in 10-Years.

 

[jabberwocky]

I believe resale units will always be able to convert. Why?

Because if resale cannot convert, the amount of enrolled inventory in DP will decline over time as owners sell or age out. At some point, it becomes a resale that someone must buy unless MVC plans to ROFR every deed and eliminate the resale market (doubt MVC could afford to do this).

Bottom line: Over time, a retail deed becomes a resale deed so resale deeds increase while retail deeds decline (if they don't add new properties.)

I think you’ve pointed out a key and important issue, and one that has implications for VSN.

When SVN (predecessor to VSN) was launched by Starwood, existing Vistana deeded owners were given the opportunity to enroll for a relatively low price. I don’t recall how much my parents paid to join SVN - but I believe it was under $500 at the time. This gave a large influx of voluntary resort VOIs with SO.

As those voluntary resorts were resold, they lost their SO and were taken out of SVN and decreasing SO availability. Thus, Vistana needed a way to restore inventory that was being depleted; hence the ability to retro.

I don’t know the genesis of the retro program, but from what I have gleaned on TUG, retros used to require a purchase of $20k per VOI brought in, $8-10k of which had to be new money (net of any trade-ins). Hawaii developer purchased weeks had higher minimums.

Over time the minimum needed to bring in a VOI has dropped substantially, with $10k for the initial VOI and $5k for additional now being required. The only reason I can think of for dropping the minimum is to keep up the voluntary resort inventory in the SO system (it also had the benefit of helping sell Flex, but the minimum was falling even before then).

Given the standard TUG advice for Vistana owners has been to buy a resale mandatory unit, I’m not sure how many owners here have developer purchased voluntary weeks, so we’ve been more focused on losing our VSN mandatory privileges.

The bigger threat I think comes from what may happen if MVC does allow resales to be requalified. Would they also restore a Vistana voluntary resort into VSN, or would it only be allowed to play in the DP sandbox? If they don’t allow resales to be restored into VSN, over time that inventory will shrink, and all that may be left are the mandatory resorts (which are some of the more desirable).

This admittedly is a long ways off before it becomes a serious problem, but for those of us with longer travel horizons (I hope to travel for another 30 years at least) it is something to think about.

 

[TravelTime]

Then it's a no-brainer.
Everyone wins. Sarcasm.

I am also inheriting the worst of the worst Op-Ex.

• NO Deeded-Week [35c - 45c/Point]. Points keep getting devalued.
• Highest Maintenance-Fees [except Hawaii] at 65c/Point that rise consistently.
• Instant-Deprectation: Vapor ware that's worthless [Purchase $15-Point --> Sale: $3/Point] in the resale market.

Here is a chart of MF YOY since 2012. +50% increase in 10-Years.
View attachment 52909

View attachment 52910

No that is not what I meant. Let me repeat again…For enrolled owners, it is pretty obvious that they will be allowed to convert. That was told to me at the sales presentation. I believe this because it is fair. If you paid $40K to $80K direct for a Vistana week or SOs, you should be allowed to participate in the combined program.

OTOH, the enrollment process and cost for resale owners has not been announced officially.

Technically no one loses though. You can still use home week, SOs or rent it out like today.

 

[Mroze]

No that is not what I meant. Let me repeat again…For enrolled owners, it is pretty obvious that they will be allowed to convert. That was told to me at the sales presentation. I believe this because it is fair. If you paid $40K to $80K direct for a Vistana week or SOs, you should be allowed to participate in the combined program.

OTOH, the enrollment process and cost for resale owners has not been announced officially.

Technically no one loses though. You can still use home week, SOs or rent it out like today.

I was told the following by multiple people [Marriott In-Person, Marriott-Corp/Virtual-Teams-Call & Vistana-Corp]

• Direct-Purchase/Retro-Owners are eligible to participate in the new Marriott DCP-System for a fee.
  • NOTE: Eligible is not automatically free.
  • Enrollment-Fee is waived with a purchase [recent purchases possibly less than 12-Months old qualify].
• Resale-Owners will be eligible to participate if they retro their weeks.
  • NOTE: Most likely the Retro-Package-Purchase would suffice to also enroll in the new DCP-System.

BTW: I don't disagree that one could purchase DCP and enroll multiple resale-units [lowering the Price/Point]. I have done this [purchased Hybrid-Packages multiple times].
However, not everyone is looking to drop $35K [single contract even if EOY] even if they inherit net-new DCP.

I am still looking for someone who managed to negotiate the DCP Price/Point down.
In 10+ years I have negotiated incentives [Additional-Bonvoy, More-Bonus-DCP, Encore-Credit, Recent-Stay-Credit, Bigger-Discount-For-Larger-Package] but not lower DCP-Price.
When I walk away and they don't call me back is when I know I pushed them to the limit.

In response to your earlier Q
Vistana: Nothing special that other Vistana owners cannot also avail of today.
I enrolled 6 x 2BR-WKV-PLAT+ [148.1K Each] [Under 900K-SO] for $40K. Qualified for 5-Star/Bonvoy-Platinum.
Received a few benefits. Combined ~1M-Bonvoy + Option-To-Purchase 12 x 330K Bonvoy-Certs [4M-Bonvoy] @ $0.069c/Point.
Bad part is we inherited Flex [High-MF]. This simply adds to the 1.3M-SO and is less than 10% of our portfolio.
Could have done it slightly cheaper [$35K] as I did it in 2-Lots [3-Each].
We purchased these via RedWeek for ~$12K-Each [some $14K some $10K].

Marriott
Since our MKO 2VR-EY-IV was purchased resale Pre-2010 we paid ~$1K [$1495 - $595-Credit] to enroll.
We purchased a couple of Hybrid-Packages [no resale retro] that worked out to $6.97 & $6.59 respectively.

 

[GregT]

Might be true for an annual but you are buying more points when you spend $35,000 so the total cost per point, when you also include what you paid resale for the week you are enrolling, can average to $5 pp. I know some people who even averaged out to $4 pp. I bought a week direct from MVC in 2018 and my price pp was $5.

The offer they made me this week to buy 1000 points averaged out to $6 pp even including how much I paid for WKOVRN on the resale market. I am sure I could have negotiated them down but I did not want to spend any more money to enroll right now.

There are other Tuggers who spent $50K or $60 K for more points but they were allowed to enroll many weeks. @frank808 I believe you are an example of someone who has gotten incredible enrollment offers. If you do not mind sharing, how many weeks did you enroll, how much did you pay to enroll all those weeks and what was the cost pp after taking into account what you also paid resale for those weeks?

I am not @frank808 (and I look forward to seeing him again soon) but I bought a week direct back in Fall 2020. I bought an Aruba week that was work 4,425 points for $37K. That allowed me to enroll 5.5 unenrolled weeks (three MOC weeks, 1 Ko Olina, one Shadow Ridge and a Willow).

The Shadow and Willow are dedicated II traders. My Aruba week is a dedicated points generator. I like my Hawaii weeks for personal usage but I could envision redeeming Ko Olina for points and booking Waiohai or WPORV. So it might become a Hawaii points week.

I don’t know if this helps buts it’s my experience. The total points enrolled don’t really matter because I never expect to redeem them for points.

I did this because I ate a number of MOC rentals during COVID and I realized I would benefit from abilit to convert to points. But I ended up renting the 2021 weeks so it may have been unnecessary.

But my Aruba week is now my Caribbean points trader and my Ko Olina is now my Hawaii points trader - which means I have too many weeks.

Best,

Greg

 

[TravelTime]

I am not @frank808 (and I look forward to seeing him again soon) but I bought a week direct back in Fall 2020. I bought an Aruba week that was work 4,425 points for $37K. That allowed me to enroll 5.5 unenrolled weeks (three MOC weeks, 1 Ko Olina, one Shadow Ridge and a Willow).

The Shadow and Willow are dedicated II traders. My Aruba week is a dedicated points generator. I like my Hawaii weeks for personal usage but I could envision redeeming Ko Olina for points and booking Waiohai or WPORV. So it might become a Hawaii points week.

I don’t know if this helps buts it’s my experience. The total points enrolled don’t really matter because I never expect to redeem them for points.

I did this because I ate a number of MOC rentals during COVID and I realized I would benefit from abilit to convert to points. But I ended up renting the 2021 weeks so it may have been unnecessary.

But my Aruba week is now my Caribbean points trader and my Ko Olina is now my Hawaii points trader - which means I have too many weeks.

Best,

Greg

I tend to look at the cost per point as how much you paid to get the new points plus how much you already paid for the resale weeks you are enrolling divided by how many total points you now have plus those that are convertible. So if you paid $8 pp for Aruba and they let you enroll 5.5 weeks, that is really cheap.

 

[TravelTime]

I was told the following by multiple people [Marriott In-Person, Marriott-Corp/Virtual-Teams-Call & Vistana-Corp]

• Direct-Purchase/Retro-Owners are eligible to participate in the new Marriott DCP-System for a fee.
  • NOTE: Eligible is not automatically free.
  • Enrollment-Fee is waived with a purchase [recent purchases possibly less than 12-Months old qualify].
• Resale-Owners will be eligible to participate if they retro their weeks.
  • NOTE: Most likely the Retro-Package-Purchase would suffice to also enroll in the new DCP-System.

BTW: I don't disagree that one could purchase DCP and enroll multiple resale-units [lowering the Price/Point]. I have done this [purchased Hybrid-Packages multiple times].
However, not everyone is looking to drop $35K [single contract even if EOY] even if they inherit net-new DCP.

I am still looking for someone who managed to negotiate the DCP Price/Point down.
In 10+ years I have negotiated incentives [Additional-Bonvoy, More-Bonus-DCP, Encore-Credit, Recent-Stay-Credit, Bigger-Discount-For-Larger-Package] but not lower DCP-Price.
When I walk away and they don't call me back is when I know I pushed them to the limit.

In response to your earlier Q
Vistana: Nothing special that other Vistana owners cannot also avail of today.
I enrolled 6 x 2BR-WKV-PLAT+ [148.1K Each] [Under 900K-SO] for $40K. Qualified for 5-Star/Bonvoy-Platinum.
Received a few benefits. Combined ~1M-Bonvoy + Option-To-Purchase 12 x 330K Bonvoy-Certs [4M-Bonvoy] @ $0.069c/Point.
Bad part is we inherited Flex [High-MF]. This simply adds to the 1.3M-SO and is less than 10% of our portfolio.
Could have done it slightly cheaper [$35K] as I did it in 2-Lots [3-Each].
We purchased these via RedWeek for ~$12K-Each [some $14K some $10K].

Marriott
Since our MKO 2VR-EY-IV was purchased resale Pre-2010 we paid ~$1K [$1595 - $595-Credit] to enroll.
We purchased a couple of Hybrid-Packages [no resale retro] that worked out to $6.97 & $6.59 respectively.

Here is what would make no sense to me. If you already own a Vistana enrolled week that you bought direct from Vistana…and the new program is a combined Vistana/MVC…how could MVC say your enrolled Vistana week is not enrolled automatically in the new combined program?

At the sales presentation this week, the sales person told me if you bought a week direct from Vistana, it is already enrolled in the new program and you can elect DPs with no additional cost. He said I would need to buy 1000 DPs to enroll my resale week. This seems logical to me although I am still hoping MVC may still end up giving Vistana resale owners of mandatory weeks a better deal. However, that is wishful thinking on my part.

I still do have many questions about the details of the integrated program. I wonder if MVC will end up getting rid of VSE/SOs. If so, then I think they will need to have a reasonable offer for Vistana mandatory resale owners because we can exchange with SOs. They usually do not take away something you already own. Usually they grandfather in. OTOH, since voluntary resale owners can’t use SOs, I do not see a reason for MVC to let them enroll inexpensively in the new integrated program.

Many people say MVC can’t get rid of SOs but I am still skeptical. However, I have never read the legal documents. If I were MVC management, I would want to get rid of VSE/SOs because having two programs plus II is confusing and probably a pain to manage.

 

[Mroze]

Here is what would make no sense to me. If you already own a Vistana enrolled week that you bought direct from Vistana…and the new program is a combined Vistana/MVC…how could MVC say your enrolled Vistana week is not enrolled automatically in the new combined program?

This is the BS I was given by everyone from Marriott. In fairness, the Vistana people are clueless and did not say this.

I asked the exact same Q: "Why do I need to pay to enroll my Direct-Purchased Vistana-Weeks. I already paid north of $100K to Vistana?"
Quotes
"Marriott purchased [did NOT merge] Vistana for $B."
"Vistana-Owners [Direct/Enrolled/Resale] need to Pay-To-Play in the new system."
"The DCP-System opens up much more access to Marriott-Inventory for which you did not pay". "This is an enhanced benefit for which you need to pay"

There may be some truth, but I believe more an incentive to use fear to sell more.
We will know for sure in a couple of months. Hopefully sooner.

I was assured that nothing would be taken away and that I could continue to use my VSN as-is.
However, down the road [many years later] things could change.

 

[CPNY]

Which developer bought timeshare do you own?

I no longer own a developer. I originally purchased Harborside pre construction. I then added resale units and since sold the Harborside. So I no longer have a developer purchase in my account. All I’m saying is, not all of us bought only resale, some have a lot of money to vistana at one point….sadly..

 

[CPNY]

Agree. this is a great summary.

I believe resale units will always be able to convert. Why?

Because if resale cannot convert, the amount of enrolled inventory in DP will decline over time as owners sell or age out. At some point, it becomes a resale that someone must buy unless MVC plans to ROFR every deed and eliminate the resale market (doubt MVC could afford to do this).

Bottom line: Over time, a retail deed becomes a resale deed so resale deeds increase while retail deeds decline (if they don't add new properties.)

I heard that the average age of an MVC owner is about 55 - 60? If they exit in the next 10 - 15 years many of those VUIs become resales that cannot participate in DP according to this rule.

Hence they will likely offer resale promotions (aka amnesty) to get more prime inventory qualified into the DP program.

Interesting. If that’s the case then resale units for WKV, WKORV, and other high DC value mandatory units will double in price.

 

[TravelTime]

This is the BS I was given by everyone from Marriott. In fairness, the Vistana people are clueless and did not say this.

I asked the exact same Q: "Why do I need to pay to enroll my Direct-Purchased Vistana-Weeks. I already paid north of $100K to Vistana?"
Quotes
"Marriott purchased [did NOT merge] Vistana for $B."
"Vistana-Owners [Direct/Enrolled/Resale] need to Pay-To-Play in the new system."
"The DCP-System opens up much more access to Marriott-Inventory for which you did not pay". "This is an enhanced benefit for which you need to pay"

There may be some truth, but I believe more an incentive to use fear to sell more.
We will know for sure in a couple of months. Hopefully sooner.

I was assured that nothing would be taken away and that I could continue to use my VSN as-is.
However, down the road [many years later] things could change.

Wow that is shocking and unfair. I would be very upset if I paid $100K (or even less) to purchase direct and they said I could not elect DPs for no cost. If this is the case, then it is much better to buy and enroll a resale Vistana week than to own a Vistana direct week. To me that makes no sense. What did they say they will charge a direct Vistana owner for enrollment? Is it a lot or a small enrollment fee?

 

[Mroze]

Wow that is shocking and unfair. I would be very upset if I paid $100K (or even less) to purchase direct and they said I could not elect DPs for no cost. If this is the case, then it is much better to buy and enroll a resale Vistana week than to own a Vistana direct week. To me that makes no sense. What did they say they will charge a direct Vistana owner for enrollment? Is it a lot or a small enrollment fee?

Enroll
They did not disclose the enrollment fee.
It seemed like we needed to purchase something [not sure how many DP] to qualify for enrollment.

Retro
As for retro, I would like to believe that Marriott would lower the bar for retro-entry from the current $35K/1-Contract.
However, on APR-14-2022, I was shown an email which stated that Marriott was reopening the Retro-Program.
This is most likely to drive a flood of panic retro's prior to the Full-Launch.
2500-DCP/1-Contract, 3500-DCP/2-Contracts, 5000-DCP/3-7-Contracts.
If they plan to lower the entry-bar at Full-Launch, they are likely to piss-off people who opted for this retro.
In 2 short months these people are not going to be too happy. Which is why I believe that Marriott will stick with this offer.