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CLOSED: Thread Dedicated to the Upcoming/Anticipated Integration of Vistana & Marriott Ownerships (Marriott Link + Vistana Discussion)

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CPNY

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One thing that hasn't been made clear in all the soft launch "info" shared so far is what constitutes a VSN internal II exchange as far as being fee free after the VSN dues are raised to MVC levels.

Right now VSN members pay $164 for Vistana to Vistana and Vistana to MVC trades in II. Marriott members pay no fee for MVC to MVC trades and the same $164 for MVC to Vistana trades. It is very possible that only the Vistana to Vistana II trades will be included in the VSN dues for free, similar to the MVC model. Of course they may also eliminate the $164 trade fee between Vistana and MVC properties for both systems as well. Murky, murky stuff!
I hope they remove the fee for both vistana and Marriott side for all those enrolled in VSN and DC.
 

CPNY

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That may convince some WKORV owners to enroll. Some long time owners may deposit, especially those that are aging and may want an MVC closer to home.

It is nice MVC is recognizing those that paid retail in the past. We are resale so will enjoy what we have and use SOs when needed. We've already saved thousands over retail.
What about those of us who paid retail in the past before buying resale? We get no love lol. If I didn’t own mostly in Orlando (low DC value) I’d consider making a purchase to retro. Ok, I considered it, nope!
 

VacationForever

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What about those of us who paid retail in the past before buying resale? We get no love lol. If I didn’t own mostly in Orlando (low DC value) I’d consider making a purchase to retro. Ok, I considered it, nope!
Which developer bought timeshare do you own?
 

rickandcindy23

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Maybe we are miscommunicating. I am not talking about II. To me, II is not a benefit. Maybe your second point is what I mean. I thought if you purchased resale prior to 2010, that you could enroll the week for $595 or so. I thought if you purchased a week resale after 2010, then you have to buy points or a hybrid week direct from MVC to enroll the resale week.

Oh maybe I get what you mean. Before 2010, there was no DP program so are you saying no one lost anything since there was nothing to enroll into prior to 2010? Then why did MVC bother to let weeks owners grandfather in at all if they lost nothing? They could use II before and they could use II after. No loss. It did create a 2 tiered system with weeks purchased prior to 2010 being much more valuable than weeks purchased after, at least in my opinion since I really value the DP program.

In a way, what you might be saying is no different than Disney. Prior to 2020, there were no new resorts. They got rid of being able to exchange into new resorts for resale buyers. DVC owners hated that but technically resale buyers lost nothing. If you sold a contract after 2020, the new buyers could still exchange into the same resorts they had access to prior to 2020, just no new resorts built after the 2020 cut off date. There were so many complaints that Disney was trying to devalue the resale market. Disney did grandfather in all existing owners. So no one lost anything when you look at it from this POV.

To me, MVC did devalue resale because when the DP program started, they did not let resale week owners elect DPs like they did for week owners prior to 2010. While technically no one lost anything since DPs did not exist prior to 2010, it was a loss of a potential benefit that never came to be.

People on this thread are complaining that Vistana is being devalued. But looking at it from the same POV, Vistana owners are losing nothing as long as they can still use SOs like before. To me, it is irrelevant what MVC is awarding for DPs for Vistana resorts if you are not electing DPs.

You can look at it both ways. I see it as a great advantage to weeks owners who owned prior to 2010.

Okay, so what am I missing here?
I get exactly what you are saying.

I saw a devaluation in Marriott resale after 2010 because it was clear that resale couldn't enroll without a big purchase. Marriott devalued its own product. They did it.

Just like Mandatory SO's keep most of their value, while voluntary doesn't move to resale buyers, and so that devalued the product people paid big bucks to buy. When you buy something like Westin Princeville, you can buy it cheaply, but the original owner paid a lot for that privilege.

Why can't people see when they pay retail for something that the privileges they pay for do not transfer to a new buyer? Why is that okay with them at those high prices. It's looking at your purchase with tunnel vision. Why don't they look at it as something that may be worthless one day.

Marriott resales are much cheaper today than they were before 2010. That was about when I bought our first resale Marriott's Willow Ridge.

BocaBum99 predicted Marriott resales would tank in value.
 
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GregT

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Hello TUGgers,

Someone asked earlier about inventory access. When DC was rolled out, I spent alot of time trying to understand how inventory loaded and how Marriott made inventory available. I had numerous conversations with the head of Customer Advocacy for Marriott and he described the below to me. The original conversation is buried somewhere on the Marriott board and if I can find it, I will link.

Fundamentally, what he said is that every year, Marriott projects how many weeks they think will be redeemed for DC points (in addition to other projections, like how many weeks will be rented by the owner, through Marriott). Marriott then holds back these weekly projections and releases the remaining weeks to be reserved by the owners for their home ownership.

As an example, if the Trust owns 20% of Maui Ocean Club (which it did way back then) and they project another 20% of the Maui Ocean Club owners redeem for points, then only 60% of the weeks are released for home use. Marriott makes some of those available 13 months out and some of those 12 months out, as permitted under the Marriott rules, and does it on a level basis, so that every week the same number of weeks are made available (ie, they aren't cherry picking the best weeks for some groups benefit). They adjust their projection every year based on the previous years experience.

If Marriott follows this same structure for Westin, then I would expect Westin weeks to be available for reservation 12 months out (because there is no mechanism in Starwood that allows a 13 month reservation, that I am aware of) and Marriott would have to forecast how many Westin owners are going to 1) use their StarOptions to book other weeks 2) use their week to redeem for DC points. Marriott's goal, as described to me, is to fairly balance supply and demand.

One thing that he impressed upon me over multiple conversations is Marriott's desire to be fair and impartial. They are aware of the perception (and risk) that they could unfairly treat certain classes of owners and he expressed a desire (circa 2011) that no ownership class be unfairly treated. They also don't take advantage of their leverage in an unfair way -- as an example, although they are allowed to get inventory from Interval International, we do not see a pattern where they sweep the best deposits and place them into the DC exchange inventory. I still get great trades that Marriott would have scooped up if they were sweeping the best deposits -- I therefore don't expect them to cherry pick the Westin inventory at the 8 month mark. I believed him and I have continued to see where Marriott doesn't "take away" rights and privileges, but merely offers new privileges to people writing checks today.

This is one of the reasons I will be surprised if Marrott doesn't allow resale owners and mandatory owners to somehow participate in the system. I expect something more like a cutoff, where everyone who owned Starwood as of a specific date will have some manner to access or participate in the Marriott system. I don't expect it to be free or even modest, but would expect something like a $3K fee to join. Even though they don't want or need my Bella weeks in the system, the Marriott of 10 years ago didn't want to disenfranchise that owner. Marriott has less desirable weeks in their system too, but they were permitted to access.

We will see. Interesting stuff.

Best,

Greg


Here is the original thread -- but it's a lot to read (even for me, and I wrote it). :doh:
 
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dioxide45

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One thing that hasn't been made clear in all the soft launch "info" shared so far is what constitutes a VSN internal II exchange as far as being fee free after the VSN dues are raised to MVC levels.

Right now VSN members pay $164 for Vistana to Vistana and Vistana to MVC trades in II. Marriott members pay no fee for MVC to MVC trades and the same $164 for MVC to Vistana trades. It is very possible that only the Vistana to Vistana II trades will be included in the VSN dues for free, similar to the MVC model. Of course they may also eliminate the $164 trade fee between Vistana and MVC properties for both systems as well. Murky, murky stuff!
Enrolled Marriott owners pay no fee for both Marriott to Marriott AND Marriott to Vistana II exchanges. Vistana pay $164 for Vistana to Vistana and Vistana to Marriott. Based on information provided already out of this, we expect all II exchange fees to go away for anyone in the combined program.
 

kozykritter

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Enrolled Marriott owners pay no fee for both Marriott to Marriott AND Marriott to Vistana II exchanges. Vistana pay $164 for Vistana to Vistana and Vistana to Marriott. Based on information provided already out of this, we expect all II exchange fees to go away for anyone in the combined program.
We can expect all we want but it might not happen that way. Time will tell.
 

TravelTime

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At least that studio gets a full fridge, a cooktop, and a washer dryer. Unlike studios “hotel rooms with microwaves” at “another brand’s” resorts.

You are correct that a Westin studio is superior than a Marriott studio due to the kitchen and washer/dryer. I do not stay in studios so to me, that stuff is not important. Even when we get a 2BR lock off, we only use the kitchen and washer/dryer on the 1BR side. I can see why you prefer Vistana if you stay in studios or you can get a small 1BR for low SOs in places you like to visit.

I wonder if the DP cost will be higher for Vistana studios vs Marriott studios in the same location to take into account that Vistana studios have more in common with a 1BR than a traditional studio. Has anyone seen the DP charts for Vistana vs Marriott studios in the same location?

If they cost the same in DPs, then MVC will be a offering a good deal on Vistana studios. Overall, Marriott studios are pretty low cost in DPs if you go off season. If you do not care about views or season, studios can cost under 1000 DPs. Some 1BR and 2BRs are very cost efficient in DPs during off season even for OV/OF views. Nowadays, I just look at 2BRs since we have 2 kids. Before the kids, we stayed in 1BRs (unless 1BR was not available) and I could make our DP budget stretch so much with 1BRs.

For my WKOVRN 2BR OF, I could never get more than 2 weeks assuming I was willing to lock off for a studio, which I am not. With SOs, I might be able to get two 1BRs but on a limited basis for places I would want to travel. Like I said, two 1BRs or a 1BR + Studio does not work for me. So getting 8300+ DPs for my property is a good deal to me and a bit better than using SOs or staying at my home resort. However, we still have the option to stay at our home resort or use SOs.

I think whether MVC is a good deal or not depends on where you own and where/how you like to travel. Vistana may be a better deal for most people, assuming you are a deal driven traveler. Many of us are more into getting larger units with views in high demand locations as well as more locations with the integrated program.

All that said, I will not enroll my Vistana week unless the upfront fee is low. It’s because I am not outlying another $15,000 or more just for the ability to convert a week to DPs.

I know I have said all of this (or some variation of it) but other people (not referring to you specifically) keep repeating themselves as well on this thread. LOL
 

TravelTime

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Hello TUGgers,

Someone asked earlier about inventory access. When DC was rolled out, I spent alot of time trying to understand how inventory loaded and how Marriott made inventory available. I had numerous conversations with the head of Customer Advocacy for Marriott and he described the below to me. The original conversation is buried somewhere on the Marriott board and if I can find it, I will link.

Fundamentally, what he said is that every year, Marriott projects how many weeks they think will be redeemed for DC points (in addition to other projections, like how many weeks will be rented by the owner, through Marriott). Marriott then holds back these weekly projections and releases the remaining weeks to be reserved by the owners for their home ownership.

As an example, if the Trust owns 20% of Maui Ocean Club (which it did way back then) and they project another 20% of the Maui Ocean Club owners redeem for points, then only 60% of the weeks are released for home use. Marriott makes some of those available 13 months out and some of those 12 months out, as permitted under the Marriott rules, and does it on a level basis, so that every week the same number of weeks are made available (ie, they aren't cherry picking the best weeks for some groups benefit). They adjust their projection every year based on the previous years experience.

If Marriott follows this same structure for Westin, then I would expect Westin weeks to be available for reservation 12 months out (because there is no mechanism in Starwood that allows a 13 month reservation, that I am aware of) and Marriott would have to forecast how many Westin owners are going to 1) use their StarOptions to book other weeks 2) use their week to redeem for DC points. Marriott's goal, as described to me, is to fairly balance supply and demand.

One thing that he impressed upon me over multiple conversations is Marriott's desire to be fair and impartial. They are aware of the perception (and risk) that they could unfairly treat certain classes of owners and he expressed a desire (circa 2011) that no ownership class be unfairly treated. They also don't take advantage of their leverage in an unfair way -- as an example, although they are allowed to get inventory from Interval International, we do not see a pattern where they sweep the best deposits and place them into the DC exchange inventory. I still get great trades that Marriott would have scooped up if they were sweeping the best deposits -- I therefore don't expect them to cherry pick the Westin inventory at the 8 month mark. I believed him and I have continued to see where Marriott doesn't "take away" rights and privileges, but merely offers new privileges to people writing checks today.

This is one of the reasons I will be surprised if Marrott doesn't allow resale owners and mandatory owners to somehow participate in the system. I expect something more like a cutoff, where everyone who owned Starwood as of a specific date will have some manner to access or participate in the Marriott system. I don't expect it to be free or even modest, but would expect something like a $3K fee to join. Even though they don't want or need my Bella weeks in the system, the Marriott of 10 years ago didn't want to disenfranchise that owner. Marriott has less desirable weeks in their system too, but they were permitted to access.

We will see. Interesting stuff.

Best,

Greg


Here is the original thread -- but it's a lot to read (even for me, and I wrote it). :doh:

Do you think MVC will get more aggressive exercising ROFR with the new program? Do you know the total numbers of DPs in the trust and what percentage is sold?
 

remowidget

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Do you think MVC will get more aggressive exercising ROFR with the new program? Do you know the total numbers of DPs in the trust and what percentage is sold?
I think they already have. Try to find a cheap Aventuras package. I had a friend lose a $500 one in January.
 

sf49fanv

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We own 122k Star Options that we bought at Westin Ka'anapali. When we got them and how much we paid is not relevant now. The 122k gets us 10 nights in a one bedroom on Maui. We have an option purchase an additional 27k at a 20%discount. They want approximately 1$10k plus maintenance. I have been looking around and have found several resales for 148,100 for the same $10k. Assuming Westin will allow this type of sale does anyone know how this resale purchase will work with our developer purchase? Will I be limited in anyway?
 

remowidget

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Do you think MVC will get more aggressive exercising ROFR with the new program? Do you know the total numbers of DPs in the trust and what percentage is sold?
Here is something I found in the Lagunamar Owners meeting report. As you can see, Marriott/Vistana has been very active in acquiring weeks over the last couple of years.
Screenshot_20220423-120412_Kindle~2.jpg
 

TravelTime

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We own 122k Star Options that we bought at Westin Ka'anapali. When we got them and how much we paid is not relevant now. The 122k gets us 10 nights in a one bedroom on Maui. We have an option purchase an additional 27k at a 20%discount. They want approximately 1$10k plus maintenance. I have been looking around and have found several resales for 148,100 for the same $10k. Assuming Westin will allow this type of sale does anyone know how this resale purchase will work with our developer purchase? Will I be limited in anyway?

Just out of curiosity, how much did you pay for 122K SOs? I assume this is annual. Is that correct?
 

sf49fanv

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Need advice re: authorizing resale Vistana, Marriott Chairman’s Club and Titanium, 13 months out reservation benefit. Looking for TUGgers who authorized resale Vistana weeks, and Marriott Destination Club Point villa owners with two or more weeks to advise and confirm what we were told

Went to our Vistana owner’s update last weekend and was told:

- This will be the last opportunity to authorize resale Vistana units prior to Marriott reservation system merger in May (yeah, whatever)

- New reservation/StarOptions/Marriott Destination Club Point system will address the disconnect between owners who purchased same number of points for different prices, meaning those who purchased 176,700 StarOptions at Maui will have higher priority or take less StarOptions getting a Maui reservation vs someone who purchased 176,700 StarOptions elsewhere, effectively devaluing certain properties. For example, it may take twice the normal Lakeside Terrace StarOptions to get a studio at WKORV at the 8- month point

- If we paid to authorize our 4 WKORV OF we would qualify for 5 star elite and Titanium level now and then after merger Marriott Chairman’s Club; Chairman’s Club will let us make our reservations 13 months out from check-in, 1 month earlier than owners who only own 1 week

We were offered:

- Purchase 1 BR Oceanview WKORV South every other year and authorize our 4 WKORV Oceanfront resales for $25,667 ($10K to authorize first unit, then $5K for each one after)

- 81,000 StarOptions (7 nights in a 1BR at WKORV)

- Makes us 5 star elite

- 1 Million wholesale (Marriott?) points for purchase option (4 certificates of 270K at $1875 each) until Dec 15, 2023; points good for 6 years

Our situation and thought process

- For the last 15 years we had no interest in 5 star elite benefits

o We rarely use Marriott points for stays but sometimes do convert to airline miles

o We always use all our StarOptions to stay in one of our home resorts (WKORV)

o If we don’t use our WKORV weeks, we rent them out

- We got tired of moving every week for 8 weeks at WKORV and could not bring our dog so we bought a condo up the hill from WKORV and will be here 4-6 months a year

- We anticipate renting out all 4 weeks of WKORV

- The 13-month reservation window from potential Chairman’s Club is appealing now to minimize the stress of 7 weeks of making reservations at exactly one year out

- The Float Period waitlist could be useful since our 2 of our fixed weeks are 5 weeks apart and we might want to make the 4 weeks consecutive

- Authorizing all the weeks would make future owner’s updates painless – they could offer nothing we don’t already have

- We don’t think we’ve ever seen this low price to authorize 4 weeks

- We are actually planning trips to Europe, Bora Bora and Maldives where Marriott points (and converting Villa options to points) could be very useful, but then again the best bang for our buck is probably renting out Maui weeks instead of converting to point for other travel

Obviously the above is probably not worth $25K, or is it?

Marriott Ocean Club owners with 2 or more weeks – is it true you get to make your reservations at 13 months out, while those with only 1 week have to wait for 12 months out? We were shown a chart that indicated everyone could already reserve at 13 months out, so it appears our “advantage” would be shared by all owners anyway and therefore not an advantage at all.

Marriott Owners with 2 or more weeks – are you able to make reservations for 2 consecutive weeks in one phone call? We were told that is the case. This would also reduce our stress.

5-star Elites – do we really need any of those benefits if we are just going to rent out our units?

Vistana owners – have you regretted authorizing any of your resale weeks?

I bluffed and said we were not interested, hoping to see if they’d lower the prices, but they just brought us the Encore package instead, so we plunked down the $99 to keep our options open for another few days. Encore package will be 1BR WKORV for $1894 for 6 days (or studio for $1594)

Any advice welcomed. We need to back out of the Encore or make a move by Wed Feb

What does this mean: This will be the last opportunity to authorize resale Vistana units
 

sf49fanv

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Just out of curiosity, how much did you pay for 122K SOs? I assume this is annual. Is that correct?

This is a deeded 1br week in WKORV (122k) Star Options for $43k. It is Westin Flex and yes it is annual.
 

rickandcindy23

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What does this mean: This will be the last opportunity to authorize resale Vistana units
This is a salesperson that told them that this is the last opportunity to.... Sales crap.
 

Mroze

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This is a deeded 1br week in WKORV (122k) Star Options for $43k. It is Westin Flex and yes it is annual.
Is it a Deeded-Week OR is it Westin-Flex?
Can it be both?
 

remowidget

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What does this mean: This will be the last opportunity to authorize resale Vistana units
According to what was reported earlier in this thread, once they stop selling Vistana, the ability to bring resale weeks into the system will completely go away as well.
 

GregT

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Do you think MVC will get more aggressive exercising ROFR with the new program? Do you know the total numbers of DPs in the trust and what percentage is sold?
Yes I do think they will aggressively exercise ROFR and I also think they will approach owners who are selling and buy their week from them. They hired brokers in the past to go out and solicit weeks to sell to Marriott. It is my expectation that they will procure Starwood weeks and deposit them into the Marriott DC Trust. I also wouldn't be surprised to see them offer Westin Flex owners the opportunity to permanently exchange their weeks and receive Trust Points instead. I have to think that they want to merge the different Trusts into the Marriott DC Trust, but that is complete speculation on my part.

Jeremy (Dioxide45) used to monitor the weeks as they were deposited into the Trust and the last spreadsheet was circa 2015 -- I will try to find that link too. There are oddities in the Trust, such as Kauai Lagoons was never sold and therefore it's tough to obtain an II trade for that property (which is a beautiful property). The third building at Ko Olina has a number of units that are Single Entry Door units, and when it was opened, the entire building was deposited into the Trust -- making Ko Olina a very easy points reservation. There are two "features" to that property -- I love the Nanea building so when I reserve my home week, I request a Single Entry Door, so I guarantee that I will placed in Nanea. The 3BR MV units are actually OV units, but the way that Building 4 was laid out (not yet built and may never be) the views might have been impacted, so you can get a great 3BR unit with an OV in Nanea for MV pricing.

These are the types of oddities that interest me as I look to stretch my points or ensure a specific location. There are similar oddities with other buildings too. Similar to our local knowledge that Building 4 at WKORV is not a preferred building.

It will be interesting to see what is rolled out finally and I do believe Marriott will protect the rights and interests of the existing owners, and offer new bells and whistles to try to generate sales.

Best,

Greg


Here is the link to the contents of the Trust, last updated in 2016 -- it provides some "assurance" of the probability of making a reservation at one of these properties. If it's not the Trust, then we are dependent on the owners choosing to redeem their weeks. I'm sure Marriott has continued to ROFR/foreclose/procure weeks but have no idea what their interest level is. Kalanipu'u is Kauai Lagoons.
 
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TravelTime

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California
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All Resale: MVC DPs, Marriott Ko Olina, Marriott Marbella, WKOVR-N, Four Seasons Aviara
Yes I do think they will aggressively exercise ROFR and I also think they will approach owners who are selling and buy their week from them. They hired brokers in the past to go out and solicit weeks to sell to Marriott. It is my expectation that they will procure Starwood weeks and deposit them into the Marriott DC Trust. I also wouldn't be surprised to see them offer Westin Flex owners the opportunity to permanently exchange their weeks and receive Trust Points instead. I have to think that they want to merge the different Trusts into the Marriott DC Trust, but that is complete speculation on my part.

Jeremy (Dioxide45) used to monitor the weeks as they were deposited into the Trust and the last spreadsheet was circa 2015 -- I will try to find that link too. There are oddities in the Trust, such as Kauai Lagoons was never sold and therefore it's tough to obtain an II trade for that property (which is a beautiful property). The third building at Ko Olina has a number of units that are Single Entry Door units, and when it was opened, the entire building was deposited into the Trust -- making Ko Olina a very easy points reservation. There are two "features" to that property -- I love the Nanea building so when I reserve my home week, I request a Single Entry Door, so I guarantee that I will placed in Nanea. The 3BR MV units are actually OV units, but the way that Building 4 was laid out (not yet built and may never be) the views might have been impacted, so you can get a great 3BR unit with an OV in Nanea for MV pricing.

These are the types of oddities that interest me as I look to stretch my points or ensure a specific location. There are similar oddities with other buildings too. Similar to our local knowledge that Building 4 at WKORV is not a preferred building.

It will be interesting to see what is rolled out finally and I do believe Marriott will protect the rights and interests of the existing owners, and offer new bells and whistles to try to generate sales.

Best,

Greg


Here is the link to the contents of the Trust, last updated in 2016 -- it provides some "assurance" of the probability of making a reservation at one of these properties. If it's not the Trust, then we are dependent on the owners choosing to redeem their weeks. I'm sure Marriott has continued to ROFR/foreclose/procure weeks but have no idea what their interest level is. Kalanipu'u is Kauai Lagoons.

Thanks Greg. This is interesting history. Do you think MVC will end up allowing Vistana owners to convert their weeks to DPs for a low entry fee?

I went to a presentation this week. At first the sales person said I could convert my Vistana week into points with no fee. I asked if he was sure and then he asked his supervisor. Then he came back and said I needed to buy 1000 DPs to enroll my week and spend $15,000. They do not know what the rules will be on the new integrated program or whether Chairman level will be enhanced. I sort of wonder if the sales people are just trying to sell points but they have no clue as to what MVC will offer Vistana resale owners esp mandatory owners. I do believe they know the DP point charts and conversion since it was printed on my account. But I wonder if they know what the enrollment plan is.
 

HankW

TUG Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2019
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Location
Central Florida
Resorts Owned
SVR, SVV, WLR
From what I was told only qualified weeks/points will be allowed to participate with no added cost. That’s those that can convert to bonvoy .
Anyone else will need to qualify their ownership to participate period . No other enrollment fees.
Vistana owners will be Just like the owners on Marriott side with unqualified and qualified products but only qualified product owners participate in DC.
It’s just that we have VSN, interval and now DC choices and Marriott has interval and DC.

I feel like we are going in circles with these questions and new aspirational integrated program "facts." We see lots of "I was told," rumors, etc. We also have plenty of pics of the points breakdown, when will the actual points chart be available to all? Are these point charts fully executed/final? Are they going to tweak all these Charts? I believe we have the key questions captured pretty well, we just need to wait for actual evidence in writing from MVC. We got time to at least review our portfolios, strategies, risks, and goals, and put in place our plans (hold, acquire, shift, etc). The old say ... Prepare for the worst and hope for the best. :)
 
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