Changes in 2021 Destination Points per Night

[csalter2]

My point in this area is it doesn't matter what they tell you. What matters is what's in the paperwork. Even when what they say is completely accurate sometimes people hear or interpret things differently.

With this, I wholeheartedly agree. People don’t read what they have signed and then complain. Once you sign, you are responsible for your purchase. You also have a 5 day rescission period to review the contract and to review the rules and policies.

However Dean, I must admit that even Marriott salespeople outright lie. Think about it. They say things like your elected points from your week is not as viable as the Destination trust points. Some have been on the brink of lying with the whole sale of Vistana, Westin, etc. trying to entice people to buy points now. They definitely can mislead you like the salesman who told me this summer that I needed to buy a Custom House week because my portfolio needed more Bonvoy Points. Ha Ha Ha

 

[mbstn6254]

My point in this area is it doesn't matter what they tell you. What matters is what's in the paperwork. Even when what they say is completely accurate sometimes people hear or interpret things differently. Specific to this area I think it's unlikely anyone would say the points can't be reallocated if specifically asked though I could see sales not understanding this themselves. The situation of specifically lying about it can happen but is less likely for MVC.

I don't mean to hog the conversation, and maybe I drew three of the most dishonest reps Marriott has ever hired, but during the presentation, when I asked about how get out of this if I wanted to it was told to me that MVC would buy back my points at the prevailing retail cost minus a bunch of fees to equal about 50% of the price of points. So if the price per point was $14 I would net about $7. The intimation being that as the price for points keep rising in a few years time I could recoup more than the 50% of my purchase. I asked if that was in writing. He pulled out an I Pad and showed me what purportedly was a digital version of the offering documents that said exactly what he described. I later discovered that was not the case at all. Out of curiosity, because so much of the presentation turned out to be false, I made in inquiry to have MVC buy back my points. The offer MVC made to me was $1.67 per point. There were other representations regarding VIP treatment and other things that also turned out false. This group in Orlando even told me they were not even salespeople but customer service managers looking to make sure I was satisfied with my original purpose. So out of 3 major benefits to me purchasing points...all were false. The biggest one being the one I just discovered. The point values to the resorts can be changed.

So as not be deemed just a crank, my wife and I have enjoyed the vacations we have taken with MVC. The places are OK the staffs are trained well and are pleasant. But this doesn't take away the fact that representations made to secure the sale were false...and I believe knowingly so.

 

[bazzap]

I can state without equivocation, had I been told what you described I would never have laid out $45,000. Why would I give a hoot about how many points it takes for the year when all I am interested in is when I want to go and the cost of that. This can be twisted with a hundred different explanations. That's not what was sold....and yes, if the same week costs me 15% more, my points are devalued. And yes....that does make it fraud.

I understand that you may well have been told that, my point was that you should not have been told that.
I can guarantee that this would not have been in the contract you signed.
Sadly some rogue sale people will say almost anything to close a deal.
They should be reprimanded, disciplined, perhaps fired if there is proof of them telling lies.
Unless they put this in writing though or you have a voice recording of them saying this, as others have mentioned the only thing that counts is the contract and this will not be fraudulent.
Were you misled, yes.
Is this wrong, yes it is totally unacceptable and IF MVC management knew it was happening that could be cause for legal action.
Without evidence though, there is really little one can do unfortunately.

 

[JIMinNC]

In all fairness, sales reps have never been known to be all that knowledgeable about some of the more subtle nuances of the MVC program that are buried in the Program Docs. I suspect many TUGgers know more about the detailed T&Cs than the average sales rep does. What the Sales folks know is likely based on the Sales Training they get, and I suspect that doesn't get into a lot of the legal nitty gritty and focuses mainly on the big picture. While I do suspect the fact that the charts can be tweaked with limitations may be mentioned somewhere in the training, I doubt its a big focus, and since the points charts HAVE, in fact, been very stable over the last 10 years, that "big picture" is what the sales reps latch on to.

There no question some reps stretch the truth and some may outright misrepresent things, but in other cases, the factual errors may just reflect that the MVC system is fairly complex and their training doesn't drill into some of the gory details to the same extent that TUGgers drill into those details. I'm not defending the sales team or their practices, just pointing out that not every misstatement or omission is intentional. Sometimes it is just lack of detailed knowledge.

 

[jmhpsu93]

The reps called it a 401v.....v for vacation.

I dunno - I kind of treat it that way as part of my retirement and snowbird planning, so I'm not going to call them out on that one. Now if they're saying it's an appreciable asset, then that's another story.

 

[Dean]

With this, I wholeheartedly agree. People don’t read what they have signed and then complain. Once you sign, you are responsible for your purchase. You also have a 5 day rescission period to review the contract and to review the rules and policies.

However Dean, I must admit that even Marriott salespeople outright lie. Think about it. They say things like your elected points from your week is not as viable as the Destination trust points. Some have been on the brink of lying with the whole sale of Vistana, Westin, etc. trying to entice people to buy points now. They definitely can mislead you like the salesman who told me this summer that I needed to buy a Custom House week because my portfolio needed more Bonvoy Points. Ha Ha Ha

It does happen and likely more than it did a few years ago but IMO it's not the majority to the time even when issues arrive. To be a lie it'd have to be purposeful and blatantly false. I think the majority of the time they make relatively general statements that a given individual may personalize and get the wrong impression, often that's often not intended. Also, I do think that the sales force is often not nearly as knowledgeable about the rules and how the system actually works as the people here are. Here's an example, I wanted to get a specific answer to what days are given to the DC side at a floating week resort when a member elects points. They really didn't have a clue and it was funny seeing them scramble to give an explanation when they clearly didn't know.

I don't mean to hog the conversation, and maybe I drew three of the most dishonest reps Marriott has ever hired, but during the presentation, when I asked about how get out of this if I wanted to it was told to me that MVC would buy back my points at the prevailing retail cost minus a bunch of fees to equal about 50% of the price of points. So if the price per point was $14 I would net about $7. The intimation being that as the price for points keep rising in a few years time I could recoup more than the 50% of my purchase. I asked if that was in writing. He pulled out an I Pad and showed me what purportedly was a digital version of the offering documents that said exactly what he described. I later discovered that was not the case at all. Out of curiosity, because so much of the presentation turned out to be false, I made in inquiry to have MVC buy back my points. The offer MVC made to me was $1.67 per point. There were other representations regarding VIP treatment and other things that also turned out false. This group in Orlando even told me they were not even salespeople but customer service managers looking to make sure I was satisfied with my original purpose. So out of 3 major benefits to me purchasing points...all were false. The biggest one being the one I just discovered. The point values to the resorts can be changed.

So as not be deemed just a crank, my wife and I have enjoyed the vacations we have taken with MVC. The places are OK the staffs are trained well and are pleasant. But this doesn't take away the fact that representations made to secure the sale were false...and I believe knowingly so.

Intimation and lying are different things. I've probably done 30 to 35 sales tours with Marriott over the years as well as that many or more with other companies. And that doesn't include informal sit downs which are likely another 30 roughly. I can only think of a couple of times when what they told me was blantantly false but even then and given some of the issues, it's likely they were ill informed rather than purposeful in most cases. I realize at the end of the day it may not matter to a given individual if they make a decision based on incorrect information but it's important to this discussion. Still, one has the responsibility to understand what they're paying this much money for including reading the legal documents and if not, it's really on them IMO. It is not the responsibility of the sales person to make sure it's a good choice for you, that's your and my job. Their job is to sell.

 

[Mr. Vker]

Oh, and wasn't trying to stir up a riot here, just noting what I saw when skimming HHI in January 2021.

THUNDERDOME!

 

[dgf15215]

I am having an issue following this with regard to what I was told.

For example: When I purchased my points if a resort in Hawaii posted rates of 500 points per night for weekdays and 1,200 points per night on the weekends during a week in August, are you telling me they can now change that to 600 points a night during the week and 1,500 points per night for the same week, but decrease the points for an off period?

Yes. Absolutely. That happened to us a number of years back and the net effect was that one of our owned weeks (from pre-DP days) went down 100 points which dropped our ownership stake to just below CC level. To their credit, they guaranteed our CC membership on an ongoing basis but we do have 100 fewer points to use every year. Of course, we still have the use of the week that took the hit although we covert everything to points, far more advantageous IMHO.

 

[Steve Fatula]

We like the model of weekend costing more as we get to save a few points staying for 12 or 10 nights as opposed to 2 full weeks. For this year, we have booked 10 nights in Jan in Palm Desert, 10 nights in April at Ko Olina and 10 nights at Newport Coast in Sept.

We always do that as well! Makes for great cheap vacations for longer than a week, and, allows for cheaper flights often as well.

 

[StevenTing]

From post #12 above:
"In my admittedly very small sample of the HHI resorts January 2021, that was what I saw. Early January is less points than 2020 while the end of January is more."

Sample: Harbour Point 2 BR

2020 Week 1 Sat check-in: 400 DC points
2021 Week 1 Sat check-in: 370 DC points

2020 Week 3 Sat check-in: 400 DC points
2021 Week 3 Sat check-in: 400 DC points

2020 Week 4 Sat check-in: 400 DC points
2021 Week 4 Sat check-in: 470 DC points

Similar experience across all of the HHI resorts where I can see availability.

So you picked one specific day. What do the points look like for a 1 week stay?

 

[Fasttr]

So you picked one specific day. What do the points look like for a 1 week stay?

I believe those are full week point needs. HHI in January is pretty cheap from a points perspective.

 

[jmhpsu93]

I believe those are full week point needs. HHI in January is pretty cheap from a points perspective.

Yes, those are for Sat-Sat one-week reservations.

 

[dioxide45]

Disney Vacation Club has done similar readjustments over the years to their point allocations.

 

[SueDonJ]

Yes. Absolutely. That happened to us a number of years back and the net effect was that one of our owned weeks (from pre-DP days) went down 100 points which dropped our ownership stake to just below CC level. To their credit, they guaranteed our CC membership on an ongoing basis but we do have 100 fewer points to use every year. Of course, we still have the use of the week that took the hit although we covert everything to points, far more advantageous IMHO.

I think it's important to note (in any thread about the devaluation of DC Points) that this particular instance of an enrolled Week's DC Point allotment being reduced sometime after enrollment of the Week, is the one and only single time since the DC rollout in 2010 that a report has been made to TUG about a single Week's allotment being changed. It's been previously discussed in this thread, Change in MVC ownership tiers, and neither this poster nor any other Ocean Pointe owner has been able to provide documentation supporting that this reduction happened.

dgf, I apologize if you think I'm unfairly questioning you but once more I'll say, a reduction in the DC Point allotment of an enrolled Week would be HUGE - and UNWELCOME - news for owners of enrolled Weeks. Minus documentation I still question whether you're confusing the grandfathering that happened when the DC status tier requirements were adjusted in 2015, or, the adjustments being discussed in this thread that happen routinely in the annual DC Points Charts.

 

[TimGolobic]

A whole lot of outrage over nothing. As Steven Ting pointed out, along with others, very little changes from year to year. And even those changes are almost always limited to the holiday weeks and where those fall on weekdays.

The number of points per week does not change. Some individual nights go up, and others in the same week go down, net change is zero.

A good example is the Jan 1-3, 2021 weekend. Those rates have been jacked up to tie together the premium NYE holiday on Thursday and demand to stay through the weekend. But the remaining weeknights Jan 3-8 are deeply discounted, net change for the week is zero. A lot of great deals starting Jan 3, 2021.

And the net change for the entire property will always be zero. It's tied to timeshare regulations and how the land trust works. You can't sell 10 million points out of a property and have the total of all reservations exceed that amount. For you economist types, it's like the money supply and backing it with the value of gold in reserves.

And I'm looking forward to 2021 charts being released soon, hopefully before 2022 rolls around.

 

[dgf15215]

I think it's important to note (in any thread about the devaluation of DC Points) that this particular instance of an enrolled Week's DC Point allotment being reduced sometime after enrollment of the Week, is the one and only single time since the DC rollout in 2010 that a report has been made to TUG about a single Week's allotment being changed. It's been previously discussed in this thread, Change in MVC ownership tiers, and neither this poster nor any other Ocean Pointe owner has been able to provide documentation supporting that this reduction happened.

dgf, I apologize if you think I'm unfairly questioning you but once more I'll say, a reduction in the DC Point allotment of an enrolled Week would be HUGE - and UNWELCOME - news for owners of enrolled Weeks. Minus documentation I still question whether you're confusing the grandfathering that happened when the DC status tier requirements were adjusted in 2015, or, the adjustments being discussed in this thread that happen routinely in the annual DC Points Charts.

Sue - I know you've expressed this before. I won't take particular offense at your questioning but if I go to the bother of somehow documenting this for you, you'll owe me a drink.

It's been some time ago when it happened, neither my wife nor I have any paperwork about it left, it probably went out with some old tax/bills/etc. stuff a while ago. But I will make some phone calls to customer care and track down what I can. I would sooner have the 100 points back than not, but that wasn't an option that presented itself when we challenged the change. The issue at hand was that we owned the week before and after the change, that what we purchased is exactly what we now have; that the points were assigned years after the fact. Our concern was more the CC as we had bought just enough to qualify; I can't believe that we are the only owners with grandfathered CC at 12,900 points. CC has been good to us over many years, particularly when traveling overseas.

I don't think it is particularly complicated. They have the right to reassign values within the timeshares as long as the net sum of the total value remains the same; to raise the value of one week, another week has to lose those points. Some legacy owners benefited, others lost out. If I can't get an answer on the phone, I'll try again at the sales office when we're in Aruba in a couple of weeks.

Don

 

[wmp0719]

I thought the purchase of points locked in my cost per night in points, not MF, as of the date I purchased them. So....for example if the cost per night in points at a resort was 400 at the time of purchase it would always be 400 per night. Other wise...whats the point in pwning points?

Am I wrong?

I thought the same thing. This is what we were told on multiple sales conversations. I own weeks, but was thinking of adding points. Don't think I will now after learning this.

 

[NYFLTRAVELER]

When I purchased years ago I asked the specific question and was told loud and clear that MVCI had the right to adjust the number of DC points needed for any specific night but that if there was an increase, there would be a decrease for another night to compensate for the upward adjustment as the shape of the pie will always remain the same but the size of the slices may change.

As for the reference to the 401-v, whenever a salesperson pulls out that nonsense, I stop them right away. A purchase of MVCI DC is in no way an “investment”. You are purchasing entry into a “lifestyle”. I look at the purchase of points as being akin to an initiation fee at certain non-equity golf or county clubs. Once you pay it, it’s gone. Thereafter, to remain a member of the club, you pay your annual dues (akin to maintenance fees).

 

[Dean]

Sue - I know you've expressed this before. I won't take particular offense at your questioning but if I go to the bother of somehow documenting this for you, you'll owe me a drink.

It's been some time ago when it happened, neither my wife nor I have any paperwork about it left, it probably went out with some old tax/bills/etc. stuff a while ago. But I will make some phone calls to customer care and track down what I can. I would sooner have the 100 points back than not, but that wasn't an option that presented itself when we challenged the change. The issue at hand was that we owned the week before and after the change, that what we purchased is exactly what we now have; that the points were assigned years after the fact. Our concern was more the CC as we had bought just enough to qualify; I can't believe that we are the only owners with grandfathered CC at 12,900 points. CC has been good to us over many years, particularly when traveling overseas.

I don't think it is particularly complicated. They have the right to reassign values within the timeshares as long as the net sum of the total value remains the same; to raise the value of one week, another week has to lose those points. Some legacy owners benefited, others lost out. If I can't get an answer on the phone, I'll try again at the sales office when we're in Aruba in a couple of weeks.

Don

Assuming accuracy, was this something that happened around the time of enrollment or much later.

 

[kds4]

In a similar vein to shifting around the number of points per night required (usually around a holiday time frame), there are also the instances of individual resorts creating 'minimum stay' requirements (effectively blocking single night points reservations). We have experienced this ourselves within the past couple of years at MVC properties on HHI that required a 2 or even 3 night stay to make a points reservation during certain 'high-demand' dates. This is never a published restriction on the MVC website, but with some creative date searches you could see changes in availability confirming the existence of these 'resort imposed restrictions'. For example, the website shows availability for a certain date range on a Thursday, Friday, and Saturday. However, when you attempt to search for just a Friday using the same date as the proposed 3 day reservation, it shows nothing available. While not a big deal to many folks, I suspect (unless they either live near a desired single-night destination or use single night stays incident to other travel), the ability to make single-night reservations was promoted as an 'ownership perk' of DC points (and is definitely being manipulated at the resort level in some locations).

 

[Beverley]

Question for the group: I own on HHI. If they raise the price of reserving a week at say the Barony from 4500 (ocean side unit) to 5000 and I only receive 4200 for my ocean side week, shouldn't they raise my point value for turning in what I own (the 4200)? I did't scrutinize the docs as I should have and I realize that in this scenario I should just book my week, but I am using this as an example to be clearer on my question.

 

[Beverley]

In a similar vein to shifting around the number of points per night required (usually around a holiday time frame), there are also the instances of individual resorts creating 'minimum stay' requirements (effectively blocking single night points reservations). We have experienced this ourselves within the past couple of years at MVC properties on HHI that required a 2 or even 3 night stay to make a points reservation during certain 'high-demand' dates. This is never a published restriction on the MVC website, but with some creative date searches you could see changes in availability confirming this 'local restriction'. For example, the website shows availability for a certain date range on a Thursday, Friday, and Saturday. However, when you attempt to search for just a Friday using the same date as the proposed 3 day reservation, it shows nothing available. While not a big deal to many folks, I suspect (unless they either live near a desired single-night destination or use single night stays incident to other travel), the ability to make single-night reservations was promoted as an 'ownership perk' of DC points.

That is very interesting!

 

[dgf15215]

Question for the group: I own on HHI. If they raise the price of reserving a week at say the Barony from 4500 (ocean side unit) to 5000 and I only receive 4200 for my ocean side week, shouldn't they raise my point value for turning in what I own (the 4200)? I did't scrutinize the docs as I should have and I realize that in this scenario I should just book my week, but I am using this as an example to be clearer on my question.

Beverly, by all rights that is exactly what should happen.

 

[Beverley]

Beverly, by all rights that is exactly what should happen.

Agreed ... i guess we will all find out soon enough )

 

[JIMinNC]

Time will tell when the 2021 points charts are finally posted, but I predict what @TimGolobic posted above will prove to be mostly true - the points cost per week will be basically the same for 2020 and 2021, but the differences will be how the cost per night is distributed between some of those weeks at certain times of the year. We'll see eventually.