Change in SVN ELITE benefits

[Ekaaj]

First, it should hardly surprise you to be accused of being rude - I am not the first person on this board to assert that your words are less than kind. A look at your previous posts is quite enlightening.

Second, I am a lady, not a sir.

Thirdly, the reason we did not like waiting on certain "Presidential Big Spenders" was not at all because of how much money they had, but rather that they were often very rude and demanding, and took away some of our ability to properly serve other guests. This was in direct response to your assertion that those who are spending more money should, therefore, get better treatment and service than those who spend less.

And finally, I see no more need to argue with someone who will never understand that what they accuse others of is, in fact, what they are doing themselves.

 

[LisaRex]

A strong case can be made that allowing requalifications to gain elite status is profoundly unfair without bringing socioeconomic circumstances into the equation. The simple fact of the matter is that some owners paid a huge premium for the same benefits that others who paid significantly less are (in theory) allowed to enjoy. That is unfair whether you have $14,000 or $140 in monthly disposable income.

If I'd have become an elite member via the developer only to find out that I could have attained the same status via buying resale at half the price, instead of feeling like a first class guest of Starwood, I'd feel like a first class sucker. And when I received the insulting "Let's reward you for being our most valued member by removing your best benefit" letter, I'd be a royally pissed first class sucker.

At the end of the day, I believe that ALL "elite" members have been victims of a smartly executed marketing scheme. No matter how you got there, you paid significant amounts of money for benefits that have been removed with no notice, no apology, and no attempt at restitution. And that is not the how a first class operation treats its customers.

 

[Ekaaj]

And that is not the how a first class operation treats its customers.

I agree wholeheartedly. The interesting thing is, I have been dealing with the Starwood hotels dept. during the last few days, making plans for some upcoming trips, and have received outstanding service. That's one of the things we like about the Starwood hotels brand - they really seem committed to their guests' satisfaction. I wonder why it does not seem to be translating to their owners....

 

[KOR5Star]

I apologize for using ridicule to make my point. But, given the structure of most Starwood resorts (with Harborside being an obvious exception due to the plethora of expensive restaurants and services), it's just not logical to believe they're using the Elite Program to draw owners who will spend big $ at the resort.

Even at Harborside/Atlantis, I would guess that the really big $ is spent by those with the yachts in the Harbor and those staying in the $10000/night suites in the Royal Towers. Spending by Harborside guests probably represents a minor blip on their radar screen, if that.

I've been at this timeshare game for quite a few years now. In fact, the very first purchase I considered was a developer purchase from Starwood when SVN was brand new. I resisted the urge to sign on the dotted line while at the resort, went home and started researching. TUG was full of stories of people who bought A and ended up with B. It continues to this day. Read the Marriott boards -- you'll find tons of people who have found that the ability to exchange for Marriott points every other year isn't worth much at all. And, many single week owners who weren't told about the fact that multi-week owners have a considerable advantage when it comes to booking prime weeks. I could go on and on. But, I learned really quickly that there were better ways to build a great portfolio of timeshares than buying from the developer.

The bottom line is that you may have been "taken" just a little bit by paying full price for enough developer units to get to 5 Star. The consolation is that you own some great units/weeks. But, it really doesn't speak kindly to work toward denying benefits to those who did their research and found a way to buy the same thing for less. Or, to assume that those people are lower class, spend less money while on vacation, etc. As my mother would say, "that behavior doesn't become you." I never really understood the grammatical structure of phrase, but I knew exactly what she meant everytime she said it. (And, she would say it now if she read my post about the dinner menu, so I will once again apologize.)

Another rational, measured response that I've come to enjoy and expect from you.

I'd like to make it clear that I never referred to anyone as high class or low class. As you can read from my recent posts, I used the phrase "class distinctions" to differentiate between people of differing wealth and spending habits.

I must admit, I predicted the term "class" might be misinterpreted. That's why I spoke of the potential flaming and tried to carefully qualify what I was saying with the paragraph that started "Please..." in that same post. Alas, those efforts were in vein. I'm not sure many got past the word "class" and still tried to understand what I was saying. I'm not sure what other word or phrase I should have used. "Class" was the proper one. ...but I probably should have tried harder.

I don't feel "taken". I feel betrayed by Starwood. I bought into something that I thought had a particular threshold and therefore exclusivity, only to find it had no such thing.

Our disagreement is about whether requal bargain seekers spend less as a group. I'm absolutely sure there are many that have the money, but enjoy the challenge of it all. My premise is those type of people don't change their spots. Finding bargains is what they do... all the time. And if IIRC, some people have stated they would only be able to afford 5* by doing the requal thing.

So we have two types of requal 5 Stars.... one's with plenty of money that enjoy the challenge of getting the best bargains they can find and those that could not have been 5 Star otherwise. The assumption that these requal 5 Stars would have the same spending patterns and offer Starwood similar revenue streams as the ones who impetuously bought in at full price is, IMHO, false.

 

[KOR5Star]

And finally, I see no more need to argue with someone who will never understand that what they accuse others of is, in fact, what they are doing themselves.

At last, we agree!

 

[KOR5Star]

A strong case can be made that allowing requalifications to gain elite status is profoundly unfair without bringing socioeconomic circumstances into the equation. The simple fact of the matter is that some owners paid a huge premium for the same benefits that others who paid significantly less are (in theory) allowed to enjoy. That is unfair whether you have $14,000 or $140 in monthly disposable income.

If I'd have become an elite member via the developer only to find out that I could have attained the same status via buying resale at half the price, instead of feeling like a first class guest of Starwood, I'd feel like a first class sucker. And when I received the insulting "Let's reward you for being our most valued member by removing your best benefit" letter, I'd be a royally pissed first class sucker.

At the end of the day, I believe that ALL "elite" members have been victims of a smartly executed marketing scheme. No matter how you got there, you paid significant amounts of money for benefits that have been removed with no notice, no apology, and no attempt at restitution. And that is not the how a first class operation treats its customers.

Well put.

I'd add that this makes a "sucker" out of no one. If I promise you something and that promise is reasonable to believe due to my reputation and your experience in the market (such as staying in my hotels), then you find out I've betrayed you, I am the one tarnished as a liar and a cheat. YOU are not a "sucker".

It's a subtle difference, but feeling like a sucker or a fool implies there is anger at oneself for being naive. My anger is clearly with Starwood. I entered into an agreement with what I thought was a trusted partner.

It's like saying a wife is a fool or a sucker because her husband cheated on her. The only fool is the betrayer.

 

[LisaRex]

The assumption that these requal 5 Stars would have the same spending patterns and offer Starwood similar revenue streams as the ones who impetuously bought in at full price is, IMHO, false.

I don't think a person can reasonably draw any conclusions on the spending patterns of 5* Requal Owners vs. 5* Retail Owners based on anectodal evidence. Starwood might track this data but I doubt they'll share.

 

[Westin5Star]

Response Via MyStarCentral

Thank you for contacting Westin Vacation Ownership.

We thank you for taking the time to express your concern today. Our goal is to enhance the Elite program benefits and consistently deliver on each of the benefits. Through an Elite owner survey conducted in 2006 to obtain voice of the customer, members responses indicated that the Villa Upgrade benefit was more of a dis-satisfier than a satisfier due to lack of fulfillment. In addition, after thorough internal evaluation of actual fulfillment we confirmed that owner occupancy has increased thus drastically limiting our ability to extend the Villa Upgrade benefit. We have therefore chosen to replace this benefit with benefits that are more likely to be fulfilled. We anticipate that owner occupancy will continue to increase as we will continue to expand our resort locations in the most sought out destinations. In order to maintain consistency in the Elite program, we will not be extending this benefit at any specific occupancy rate.

Our goal is to continue to survey Elite members, review our internal fulfillment of benefits and continue to research ways to enhance the program. We will conduct at minimum, a yearly review of the programs benefits and services in an effort to keep the program fresh and exciting for our owners.

We would like to take this opportunity to announce a new and exciting personalized feature just for you! Starwood Vacation Network Elite Member Travel Services was designed to assist with all of your additional travel needs, whether its a family gathering, a romantic getaway or a dream vacation. They offer customized travel planning, including air and car reservations. You may contact the Starwood Vacation Network Elite Member Travel Services toll free at 888-229-4258 or direct at 941-536-0321.

We hope this information was helpful. Westin Vacation Ownership looks forward to assisting you in the near future. Should you need further assistance, please contact Owner Services at 800.847.8262 in the U.S., Canada and Puerto Rico, 0.800.89.5065 in the United Kingdom, 001.800.847.8262 from Mexico and 407.903.4640 for all other areas. Owner Services is available Monday through Friday, 9 a.m. to 9 p.m. and Saturday through Sunday, 9 a.m. to 6 p.m. Eastern time.

Kevin Johnston
E-Communications Specialist
SVO Management Inc.
Fax: 407-903-4641
Website: www.mystarcentral.com

 

[Ekaaj]

At last, we agree!

Thank you for admitting it. That was gracious of you.

 

[Fredm]

The Up Side

This has been a very long run on the negative changes to the Elite program, and several side bars along the way about who's who in the Starwood circus.
Believe it or not, there was some very good news in the restructured benefit plan, if I understand it correctly. Again, just a perspective. I do not intend to imply it is a net benefit overall. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, for sure. Nonetheless, the window for StarPoints election was significantly expanded. You may not think it a big deal if you would not elect StarPoints as an alternative use with premeditation. Prior to this change, you almost had to. No longer. Those Elites faced with an 11th hour cancellation of travel plans can now at least take StarPoints as a back-up source of value at almost any time. (certainly for 5 *). That was not possible before. When confronted with the real possibility of losing use, this becomes a major benefit. In contrast, Marriott owners must declare their intention to take Marriott Rewards by mid-December of the prior year. It must be premeditated or the alternative is lost to them.
It is one of those flexible uses that means nothing until you have occasion to take advantage of it. When you do, it adds more value than an upgrade will by a long shot.
Just an observation. (if my understanding of the newly announced plan is accurate). If it is not, well, there is a benefit worth pursuing with the Powers- That- Be, IMHO. It is the flaw that makes Marriott Rewards inconsequential in a purchase decision. Back- up value when you need it is a gem.

 

[LisaRex]

FredM,

You are correct about the StarPoints window, and that is, indeed a positive change. However, given that Starwood has recently increased the number of StarPoints needed for award stays without adjusting the StarOption conversion rate to keep up with inflation, the whole StarPoints program has become yet another sore point with owners.

An owner who converts 148,100 StarOptions (which is the weekly conversion for a 2 bdrm unit during high season in Maui) to StarPoints will not have sufficient points for a week stay at a Cat. 7 hotel. Nor will it be enough for a suite upgrade for a week at a Cat. 5. An owner who uses their studio week and converts their 1 bdrm week will only have 81,000 StarPoints, which may not even buy them a week at a Cat. 5 hotel.

Once again, the salesmen sold them on what a great feature the StarPoint conversion option was without disclosing that they wouldn't adjust for inflation. And what seemed like a really great feature at the time has been signicantly devalued. So the owners paid a +20% premium to the developer for a feature that will allow them to exchange their spacious 1 bdrm condo at a prime beachfront location for....a 600 foot hotel room in a Category 4 hotel?

http://www.starwoodhotels.com/preferredguest/starpoints/redeem/point_comparison.html

 

[tomandrobin]

FredM,

You are correct about the StarPoints window, and that is, indeed a positive change. However, given that Starwood has recently increased the number of StarPoints needed for award stays without adjusting the StarOption conversion rate to keep up with inflation, the whole StarPoints program has become yet another sore point with owners.

An owner who converts 148,100 StarOptions (which is the weekly conversion for a 2 bdrm unit during high season in Maui) to StarPoints will not have sufficient points for a week stay at a Cat. 7 hotel. Nor will it be enough for a suite upgrade for a week at a Cat. 5. An owner who uses their studio week and converts their 1 bdrm week will only have 81,000 StarPoints, which may not even buy them a week at a Cat. 5 hotel.

Once again, the salesmen sold them on what a great feature the StarPoint conversion option was without disclosing that they wouldn't adjust for inflation. And what seemed like a really great feature at the time has been signicantly devalued. So the owners paid a +20% premium to the developer for a feature that will allow them to exchange their spacious 1 bdrm condo at a prime beachfront location for....a 600 foot hotel room in a Category 4 hotel?

http://www.starwoodhotels.com/preferredguest/starpoints/redeem/point_comparison.html

Lisa

To use the Staroptions to Starpoints for hotels it would not be 81k Starpoints, it would be 81k staroptions. The Starpoints for a one bedroom conversion will be about half of that for use at hotels. Which makes the situation even worse.

 

[nodge]

Thank you for contacting Westin Vacation Ownership.

We thank you for taking the time to express your concern today. Our goal is to enhance the Elite program benefits and consistently deliver on each of the benefits. Through an Elite owner survey conducted in 2006 to obtain voice of the customer, members responses indicated that the Villa Upgrade benefit was more of a dis-satisfier than a satisfier due to lack of fulfillment. In addition, after thorough internal evaluation of actual fulfillment we confirmed that owner occupancy has increased thus drastically limiting our ability to extend the Villa Upgrade benefit. We have therefore chosen to replace this benefit with benefits that are more likely to be fulfilled. We anticipate that owner occupancy will continue to increase as we will continue to expand our resort locations in the most sought out destinations. In order to maintain consistency in the Elite program, we will not be extending this benefit at any specific occupancy rate.

Our goal is to continue to survey Elite members, review our internal fulfillment of benefits and continue to research ways to enhance the program. We will conduct at minimum, a yearly review of the programs benefits and services in an effort to keep the program fresh and exciting for our owners.

We would like to take this opportunity to announce a new and exciting personalized feature just for you! Starwood Vacation Network Elite Member Travel Services was designed to assist with all of your additional travel needs, whether its a family gathering, a romantic getaway or a dream vacation. They offer customized travel planning, including air and car reservations. You may contact the Starwood Vacation Network Elite Member Travel Services toll free at 888-229-4258 or direct at 941-536-0321.

We hope this information was helpful. Westin Vacation Ownership looks forward to assisting you in the near future. Should you need further assistance, please contact Owner Services at 800.847.8262 in the U.S., Canada and Puerto Rico, 0.800.89.5065 in the United Kingdom, 001.800.847.8262 from Mexico and 407.903.4640 for all other areas. Owner Services is available Monday through Friday, 9 a.m. to 9 p.m. and Saturday through Sunday, 9 a.m. to 6 p.m. Eastern time.

Kevin Johnston
E-Communications Specialist
SVO Management Inc.
Fax: 407-903-4641
Website: www.mystarcentral.com

Hey Gang,

I think those luggage tags are secret SVO message decoders!

If you take your SVO Elite Enrollment Form and crunch it up into the little ball that it’s worth and then balance the SVO promotional DVD on top of it with the excessive weight of the luggage tag holding down the DVD, then place the contraption in a sun beam that reflects onto the Hallmark welcome card, a code appears! The best resolution appears to come if the ink on your SVO Elite Enrollment form is still wet.

Anyway, my decoding skills are a little rusty, but here is what I’ve been able to decode so far from the above SVO message:

“Thank” = Still hazy, but it is a four letter word that starts with “F” and ends with “K”
“enhance” = “screw you and”
“deliver” = “screw you”
“assisting you” = “screwing you again”
“fresh” = “worthless”

“more of a dis-satisfier than a satisfier due to lack of fulfillment.” = “a primary benefit for elite members and their decision to become elite members.”

“In order to maintain consistency in the Elite program” = “Because we would rather give excess inventory to fresh meat off the street instead of honoring our promises to you,”

“new” = “pre-existing”
“exciting” = “worthless”

“SVO Management Inc.” = Still fuzzy, but it keeps switching between “evil doers” and “dumb asses.”

Thank God for those luggage tags, now we all can finally decode SVO’s messages to us!

Hey we can even send coded messages back to SVO. Here's one from me:

THANK YOU!!! SVO MANAGEMENT INC. for your recent and without warning changes to the SVO Elite Program, which is now rendered "fresh" and "exciting" by your actions.

-nodge

 

[saluki]

Nodge...you are really on a roll...

:rofl:

 

[skim118]

An owner who uses their studio week and converts their 1 bdrm week will only have 81,000 StarPoints, which may not even buy them a week at a Cat. 5 hotel.

TomandRobin already mentioned it, but here are the numbers and they are awful

1-bed rm week in WKORV 81,000 Staroptions converts into 43,754 Starpoints.

A Studio week in WKORV 67,100 Staroptions converts into 36,246 Starpoints.

 

[Fredm]

Not again!

Lisa

To use the Staroptions to Starpoints for hotels it would not be 81k Starpoints, it would be 81k staroptions. The Starpoints for a one bedroom conversion will be about half of that for use at hotels. Which makes the situation even worse.

You are right about that. Again, I am not making a case for the value of StarPoints. Most would readily agree that they are a poor deal for the owner economically. Therefore, would not be selected as a preferred alternative use. But, some do. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Far be it for me to tell others what they should like. You, Lisa, and I seem to agree that they are a poor exchange of value. My point is a different one. When confronted with effectively losing the value of the use-year entirely, StarPoints represent a back-up value that is, at the very worst, some amount of future cost avoidance. Certainly not the crown jewel of Elite status, but a darn good insurance policy.

It is easy to get off on another rant about what is wrong. I think this thread has covered that territory pretty well. I certainly am not suggesting that Elites should be happy about it. But, recognizing the value of a benefit is the first step in taking advantage of it, if and when the need arises.

I am going to risk being flamed for this. My post had a simple meaning. It was not complicated. Why then do some feel compelled to resurrect complaints about the devaluation of StarPoints? I am going to weigh in with a candid, objective, response to the subject. It is not directed at you personally, but the perspective at large, and to those that hold it. My intent is not to be ornery, but to throw some cold water on a line of thinking. If a step back is possible, please take it.
The devaluation of StarPoints should not come as a surprise to anyone. No loyalty program in existence, without exception, has maintained parity with its entry value. The first day in the program represents the best case scenario. Points are devalued in varying degrees for a number of reasons. Not the least of which is inflation and cost of operations. To suggest that they should be adjusted for inflation, or indexed to some similar measure, makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. It defies the reason they were devalued in the first place. Those that whine about this are not going to change their mind. I know that. It is one of those irrational behaviors that otherwise intelligent people engage in when confronted with reason, and rather be self-righteous. It is an attitude of somehow being special, and exempt from the realities of life. No one would really expect to pay the same amount for a hotel room today then they did 10 years ago, using the same currency as payment (be it points or cash). Yet, a cause celebre among some here is that they should be entitled to exactly that proposition. Why? Because they own a timeshare? StarPoints are not connected to ownership by deed. They are not part of its "bundle of rights". They can even be completely canceled, unilaterally, at any time. Almost all know that. So, what is the basis for the position? Now, please, do not roll out the tired argument that because it is an alternative to use, it should remain consistent with the deeds entitled rights. Unless the calendar is repealed, a week will remain 7 nights, forever. The true comparison is not the week, but the maintenance fee to support the weekly use. The cost of operations will increase, and so goes the maintenance fees. Likewise, the cost of maintaining a hotel room increases. Is anyone really suggesting that timeshare maintenance fees be frozen, or Starwood rebate fees based on inflation? What is the difference? It begins to sound like the huffing and puffing of a spoiled child, who it outraged because what they want is being denied them. The child has an excuse. They do not yet know they are not the center of the universe. This'"points" issue is not an "Elite" member issue. It applies uniformly to all owners who purchased directly from Starwood.. "Elites" are the owners who have the added flexibility to take a back-up value when the real world intrudes on their travel plans. I would be somewhat comforted by that. But, my glass is not always half empty.

 

[Catazog]

I have to say that ". . . members responses indicated that the Villa Upgrade benefit was more of a dis-satisfier than a satisfier due to lack of fulfillment" is the most convoluted marketing-speak I've read in a long time!

 

[Time2Ponder]

The devaluation of StarPoints should not come as a surprise to anyone. No loyalty program in existence, without exception, has maintained parity with its entry value.

Fred, if you're going to get flamed, then I should get flamed as well: I made precisely this point earlier when I mentioned Frequent Flyer programs. I also indicated that the only thing to which owners are entitled is that which is spelled out clearly in the deed. It's fairly simple, and I suspect most people recognize and understand the issues. Comprehension, however, is not necessarily synonymous with affection. What's the old joke: "I liked you better before I got to know you...."

 

[Henry M.]

Now, please, do not roll out the tired argument that because it is an alternative to use, it should remain consistent with the deeds entitled rights. Unless the calendar is repealed, a week will remain 7 nights, forever. The true comparison is not the week, but the maintenance fee to support the weekly use. The cost of operations will increase, and so goes the maintenance fees.

When you exchange a week for points you are indeed looking at an alternative to use. You give Starwood the right to use/rent your week at whatever the then current rental rates are. Starwood would always be able to recover the cost of the Starpoints since the rental rates for the villas is usually significantly higher than for an equivalent hotel room in the area near the resort. My week for a 2BR lock-off in Maui (that is really a week in a studio plus a week in a 1BR) will, over time, be rented for more money than a single room at the Sheraton Maui or Westin Maui.

If the number of days are not kept in line, and given the way hotel rental rates are going up, Starwood is getting a windfall when you exchange your week for Starpoints. If they used a local property as a comparison gauge, then the transaction would be fairer for both sides.

Having said that, I do agree with you that there is no "right" to such a benefit. If I remember the documents I read when I first purchased a unit, it is outright stated that the SPG conversion privilege could be terminated at any time. I don't feel cheated by the devaluation (I mostly like to use my weeks anyhow), but I wouldn't mind seeing the conversion ratio be maintained. I don't feel like it is an untenable proposition since Starwood is getting something of increasing value when they do the conversion. The exchange could remain even regardless of increasing costs for both types of rooms.

 

[pointsjunkie]

using the starpoints is a major value to me. we use it to go places where starwood has no timeshare. we have stayed at absolutley fabulous resorts. i convert some of my weeks every year and vacation 4-5 times a year ,using the 5th night free award. staying in NYC during christmas with the entire family with points is a benefit that we love.:whoopie:

 

[LisaRex]

FredM, I don't have a pony in this race as I'm a resale owner. But I do think that retail owners have a legitimate gripe against Starwood management for the many reasons listed in this thread. I don't think it's petulant or unreasonable to expect that the benefits touted by SVO salesmen would have an equivalent value less than a year later, especially when folks paid tens of thousands of dollars for these benefits.

 

[TheUnitrep]

...I don't think it's petulant or unreasonable to expect that the benefits touted by SVO salesmen would have an equivalent value less than a year later, especially when folks paid tens of thousands of dollars for these benefits.

Put credence in something a TIMESHARE salesman says (no offense intended Fred), now that's funny!!!:hysterical:

 

[LisaRex]

Put credence in something a TIMESHARE salesman says (no offense intended Fred), now that's funny!!!:hysterical:

It's easy for me laugh because I've never sat in front of a timeshare salesman and don't ever intend to. Hear no lies.

 

[duke]

It begins to sound like the huffing and puffing of a spoiled child, who it outraged because what they want is being denied them.

No, Fred. This is not the case.

These are comments by previously happy customers that are now, due to the changes, unsatisfied. Unsatisifed customers are not good for any vendor or manager.

To make a comparison to spoiled children is wrong. These are adults who paid for and continue paying for a superior program (including the extras).

We know what is in the deed and we know what was told to us and we know the difference. However, that does not make a satisfied customer.

SVO is quite lucky to be able to get this feedback and I hope they will make improvements. I also hope they will realize that we are not spoiled children, nor are we stupid enough to believe that it is better to have no upgrades than the chance of getting an uprade.

 

[Time2Ponder]

We know what is in the deed and we know what was told to us and we know the difference. However, that does not make a satisfied customer.

Actually, what makes a satisfied customer is a knowledgable customer, one who approaches a transaction with eyes wide open. Caveat emptor. Make sure that what is important to you (and what will keep you satisfied) appears in the legal contract that you sign. AFAIK, every single loyalty program out there indicates that terms and conditions may be changed, or that the program may be terminated at any time with no liability on the part of the company.

I'm curious: Has any Starwood TS salesperson ever *promised* that the Elite program would be around forever, with all the same benefits? Has any buyer actually even asked this question, or has s/he simply made unfounded and illogical assumptions?

(For the record: I am not an Elite customer, nor have I thought about purchasing additional TSs just for the purposes of becoming Elite.) I am fully aware of the manner in which Starwood has cut back on the Elite program. Despite this fact, however, if Starwood developed additional properties that were of interest to me (*and I received more vacation time*), I'd definitely go ahead and purchase from them. Why? Because they offer a superior TS product. Not because they have an Elite program.

Btw, I would consider some sort of country club-type plan if Starwood offered it.