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2024 Maintenance Fees DISCUSSION THREAD

dioxide45

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I think they'd have a few options. For enrolled owners they'd likely just terminate them from Abound. For the trust all they'd have to do would be to swap out with another location. I suspect they'd have to give the NJ owner the option to terminate their enrollment. I am told that for the first round of resort terminations early on, they gave those owners who'd bought directly a reasonable option to swap out. This did not happen with the last round (Spicebush, etc) even though some owners pushed for it.
I would think that unless a timeshare is sunsetting, any kind of swapout would be detrimental to the timeshare? What does a swap out even look like? Who takes the deeds at the resort that is on the way out?
 

Dean

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I would think that unless a timeshare is sunsetting, any kind of swapout would be detrimental to the timeshare? What does a swap out even look like? Who takes the deeds at the resort that is on the way out?
Certainly it would be detrimental to the resort but it could be beneficial for the system and the rest of the owners. It is more complicated in some ways with the trust but actually should be easier in others. The owners there would lose their II trading preference and their enrollment options for that ownership. Obviously were discussing hypotheticals at this point.
 

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cubigbird

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Looking at the DVC forum it looks like they are coming in mostly increases around 2% with the highest around 6-7% even with heavy Florida exposure. Marriott still seems to be the anomaly for 2024 increases. Something has to be going on….
 

Superchief

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Looking at the DVC forum it looks like they are coming in mostly increases around 2% with the highest around 6-7% even with heavy Florida exposure. Marriott still seems to be the anomaly for 2024 increases. Something has to be going on….
Corporate greed and dominance!
 

DanCali

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Corporate greed and dominance!

Well, the stock price is down about 45% in the past 12 months so something much be done about the management fees line item. We'll see how the sales line item works out for them with those increases.

At this rate they'll definitely be dominating the timeshare exit radio commercials and junk mail brochures!
 
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SueDonJ

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Aren't the resort management agreements time limited and have to be renewed periodically? I was thinking they were on a 5 year cycle.
Each resort's Management Agreement can differ in minor details but I'd expect them all to be similar in regards to renewals. From SurfWatch docs:

"... The term of this Agreement (the "Term") shall be for a period of ten (10) years commencing on the Effective Date. [Note: I believe SW was 2006] The Term may thereafter be renewed by Manager, at its option (on the same terms and conditions contained in this Agreement) for each of five (5) successive periods of ten (10) Fiscal Years each ("Renewal Terms").

All they'd have to do would be to either let it expire or sell the management rights to another company such as Bluegreen, Hilton or Wyndham. I also suspect there are for cause terminations built in which they could work from if they truly wantee to.
But can they sell a Management Agreement? I'm seeing language that says the Manager can assign some management responsibilities to third parties (and not surprisingly, that ongoing/additional costs for such assigns would fall on the owners) but nothing to say that the Agreement can be sold outright. Instead it would require a separation of Marriott and the resort, whether initiated by Marriott or the Board/owners, followed by the Board then entering into a new Management Agreement with a non-Marriott entity.

I'm sure that just as the terms of the Management Agreement might differ among the resorts' individual docs, so would the separation allowances. Meaning, the legalities wouldn't substantially differ but minor details may. Again from the SurfWatch docs:

"... If the Board does not approve the estimated Common Expenses and Time Share Expenses for a Fiscal Year (hereinafter referred to as "Estimated Operating Budget" pursuant to Sec 6.03 of this Agreement or any special assessments proposed by Manager, and Manager believes that the reduced Estimated Operating Budget that is approved or the failure to implement needed special assessments will cause the Association resources to be inadequate to operate the Time Sharing Plan and the Condominium Property to MVCI Brand Standards or, if the Board takes any action that, in Manager's sole, but reasonable opinion, undermines or detracts from MVCI's Brand Standards, then Manager may terminate this agreement upon ninety (90) days prior written notice to the Association.

"Further, Manager may terminate this Agreement at any time and for any reason upon one hundred eighty (180) days written notice to the Association. Likewise, the Association may terminate this Agreement at any time and for any reason upon one hundred eighty (180) days written notice to Manager, provided that prior to such notice, the decision to terminate was supported by the affirmative vote of at least seventy-five percent (75%) of all votes in the Association.
"

I think they'd have a few options. For enrolled owners they'd likely just terminate them from Abound. For the trust all they'd have to do would be to swap out with another location. I suspect they'd have to give the NJ owner the option to terminate their enrollment. I am told that for the first round of resort terminations early on, they gave those owners who'd bought directly a reasonable option to swap out. This did not happen with the last round (Spicebush, etc) even though some owners pushed for it.
Like you I vaguely remember swaps happening in the early days, among separated resorts but also specifically among HHI owners who were given the option to swap out of older unseparated resorts for the newer resorts as they were built (example, Harbour Point owners could swap for GO, Barony or SurfWatch as each came online.) I thought all of those involved selling the old back and buying the new with every transaction subject to the prices current at the time. So, not equal 2BR swaps, for example.

The Trust and Enrollment docs have terms regarding separations of Management Agreements which pretty much say that Trust intervals "may" be removed from the Trust upon separation. I wouldn't think that any swaps would have to be made in individual Club Points deeds (or certificates, or whatever the mechanism of purchase,) though, because those don't stipulate certain resorts tied to the purchase. Do they?

As for Enrolled Members, the docs state that they could lose their associated enrollment status and Abound Points allocations upon separation. So if somebody owns one enrolled Week and that resort separates, they could be terminated from Abound and the allotments would end. But somebody who owns other Abound-related products, either enrolled Weeks at other resorts or purchased Club Points, would retain their Abound membership with their Abound status and Club Points allotments decreased accordingly by the separation. I think I said, though, in an earlier post that the Trust set-up appears to allow non-Marriott-branded resorts to be included, so it's possible that Weeks from later-separated resorts could theoretically remain conveyed, and owners of Enrolled Weeks in later-separated resorts could remain enrolled - all at Marriott's discretion if they see value in those Weeks??
 
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jpc763

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All 3 of my weeks maintenance fees are now posted and I have some observations. I do not own any points but all 3 weeks are enrolled.

I have:
Imperial Palms Villas - 3BR - Special Season - Converts to 2425 DP - 2024 Maintenance Fees - 2220.41 - per DP $0.92
Ko Olina EOY Even - 2BR MV - Platinum Season - Converts to 4025 DP - 2024 Maintenance Fees - $1567.38 - per DP $0.78
Shadow Ridge Villas - 2BR - Gold Season - Converts to 2325 DP - 2024 Maintenance Fees - $1065.54 - per DP $0.92

Now my understanding is that that maintenance fees per point is $0.79

So it looks like both Imperial Palms and Shadow Ridge are not a value to convert to points.

That is OK for Shadow Ridge because we always book the highest point week in our season (Thanksgiving) which is 4225 DP for that week so it is a better value (roughly $0.50 per point).

The one that seems to make the least sense is Imperial Palms. We rarely go and usually trade for points or trade in Interval International. It is a good trader but seems that we would be much better off with 2500 points instead.

Seems I should be looking to dump imperial palms in favor of points. Probably going to be difficult.

Am I doing the analysis wrong?
 

VacationForever

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I usually use II to trade instead of converting to DC points. There is much more value in II than booking MVC point system. You should not dump Imperial Palms in favor of points because when you buy those (resale) points, it is another cash outlay. No use throwing good money into an expensive system. Keep using II! :)
 

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Over the last 5 years or so, my Big Island Bay Club 2 BDRs (HGVC) have run around $400 more than Grand Vista 2 BDR. With Grand Vista being up to $1895/week; I am waiting to get my Bay Club bill and see if it is still greater. . . (2023 Bay Club was $1843. If it goes up by the same 5% as last year, that would put at $1935)
 
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dioxide45

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All 3 of my weeks maintenance fees are now posted and I have some observations. I do not own any points but all 3 weeks are enrolled.

I have:
Imperial Palms Villas - 3BR - Special Season - Converts to 2425 DP - 2024 Maintenance Fees - 2220.41 - per DP $0.92
Ko Olina EOY Even - 2BR MV - Platinum Season - Converts to 4025 DP - 2024 Maintenance Fees - $1567.38 - per DP $0.78
Shadow Ridge Villas - 2BR - Gold Season - Converts to 2325 DP - 2024 Maintenance Fees - $1065.54 - per DP $0.92

Now my understanding is that that maintenance fees per point is $0.79

So it looks like both Imperial Palms and Shadow Ridge are not a value to convert to points.

That is OK for Shadow Ridge because we always book the highest point week in our season (Thanksgiving) which is 4225 DP for that week so it is a better value (roughly $0.50 per point).

The one that seems to make the least sense is Imperial Palms. We rarely go and usually trade for points or trade in Interval International. It is a good trader but seems that we would be much better off with 2500 points instead.

Seems I should be looking to dump imperial palms in favor of points. Probably going to be difficult.

Am I doing the analysis wrong?
Do you have a typo in the MFs for Shadow Ridge? Or is that an EOY?
 

DanCali

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I think it is a typo, $2,065.54, to get to 89 cents per point.

Or rather $2131 (the full year MFs for an EOY week) to get to the stated $0.92 per point.
 

vacationtime1

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Dean

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Like you I vaguely remember swaps happening in the early days, among separated resorts but also specifically among HHI owners who were given the option to swap out of older unseparated resorts for the newer resorts as they were built (example, Harbour Point owners could swap for GO, Barony or SurfWatch as each came online.) I thought all of those involved selling the old back and buying the new with every transaction subject to the prices current at the time. So, not equal 2BR swaps, for example.
I don't have any direct knowledge, only what I've seen posted many years ago. It is my understanding that no one received a deed swap when spicebush, etc exited the system. At least I've never seen anyone post that they did. I do know a number who asked and were told no. When MVC dropped the resorts years before, I am told that owners who had bought from MVC were offered a deed swap though I don't have specifics.
 

jpc763

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Do these numbers include property taxes (billed separately)? If not, the total cost per point is about 5-8% higher.
They do not include property taxes so you are correct. Thanks for pointing that out.

With property tax, the maintenance fee is $1130.18 for EOY or $2260.39 for EY. Cost per point is $0.97
 
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WBP

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What is wrong with each of them?

They were disasters for MVC. Defective merchandise. So bad, that MVC bailed on development/sales of Doral and Legend's Edge, and, if it were not for a large population base in the vicinity of Fairway Villas, who MVC could sell "the dream" to, NOT the destination, MVC would have bailed on Fairway Villas, as well.
 

WBP

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I am giving an educated guess. In the 1991, I had a staff job at IBM in NYC and was asked (told) to be part of a team putting together a multi day management meeting for the sales executives and management teams in the tristate area. It was my last activity before before I was allowed to accept a role as a sales manager. The event was held at the the Marriott Seaview Resort in Absecon NY. The Marriott was picked because of the golfing and easy access (we provided transportation) to Atlantic City. At that time, Atlantic City boardwalk and the immediate surrounding area was a thriving area for gambling, shows, a lot very good restaurants and of course the beach. I was not aware of timeshares at the time but had to stay there 4 days before in preparation and there was no Fairway Villas kind of complex.

Fast forward to the summer of 2013. My wife and I stayed at the Fairway. I knew the allure of Atlantic City had faded but was shocked at the extent it had deteriorated. We actually took a 1 hour drive to Philly a couple of the days to enjoy our stay. I do not know when Fairways construction started and completed, but I can only guess that it was when the allure of AC was on the upswing before the peak and subsequent down turn. The complex is okay at best, the golf good but other than that nothing in the immediate area or the surrounding proximity.
Fairway Villas was another MVC Disaster. The Development Team that conceived the trifecta of Fairway Villas, MVC Villas at Doral, and Legend's Edge, BLEW IT.
 

Ralph Sir Edward

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Over the last 5 years or so, my Big Island Bay Club 2 BDRs (HGVC) have run around $400 more than Grand Vista 2 BDR. With Grand Vista being up to $1895/week; I am waiting to get my Bay Club bill and see if it is still greater. . . (2023 Bay Club was $1843. If it goes up by the same 5% as last year, that would put at $1935)

Some comparisons:

Kohala Suites 2 BDR - $1985
Kingsland Small 2 BDR - $1877 (!)
Kingsland Large 2BDR = $2117

Hawaii for less than MGV?

Marriott is starting to price itself out compared to its next biggest competitor.
 

AlmostRetired

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To come full circle to the MF of trust points.

I started a few FB groups, a Marriott's on for HHI group, Grand Chateau group and a Hilton Head foodie group to name a few. There are a few board members across the groups, some of which were members before HOA members. I know (defined loosely) a couple of them. I decided to reach out to one via FB messenger and ask a few questions, which I do on occasion. One was on foreclosures. Which resort doesn't matter because this could apply to almost any Marriott USA. Anyone can reach out to their HOA and ask what happens to foreclosures at the resort because all owners pay for it. They should answer this question so I am not sharing insider or confidential info. A few caveats. HOA members are not as knowledgeable about the Point system as you might expect because they go year after year to the resort. As such their focus is on the resort and the resort owners. Rarely is there expertise on what got them elected in timeshare or Marriott. It is there past business experience. Their opinions are no more accurate then anyone else.


Q - I have a question on foreclosures. As the MF continues to go up, some owners have to stop paying and you foreclose. Do those weeks get bundled and given to MVCI and if so, why would Marriott take it when the cost per point is so high and burdens the trust?

A - As for the foreclosures, yes, as of right now, Marriott buys those weeks back and issues them to the trust. They stopped this briefly during the pandemic, but have since restarted. When I asked this question, the Marriott director stated that Marriott is desperate for additional inventory. As more people buy points, more points usages need to be available for them to use. It is one reason why they have been acquiring other groups like Westin. They need the inventory, since they can't build fast enough to meet the demand. Yes, this does burden the trust, but the trust makes up for it in volume at the moment, and is the primary driver in the rise in MF costs for the Trust. It’s just a matter of time before Marriott will be majority owner and can make decisions on their own. Hope that helps

Q - Buys them or gets them for free

A - The ‘buy’ is that they pay the association for the owed MF
 
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Fasttr

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To come full circle to the MF of trust points.

I started a few FB groups, a Marriott's on for HHI group, Grand Chateau group and a Hilton Head foodie group to name a few. There are a few board members across the groups, some of which were members before HOA members. I know (defined loosely) a couple of them. I decided to reach out to one via FB messenger and ask a few questions, which I do on occasion. One was on foreclosures. Which resort doesn't matter because this could apply to almost any Marriott USA. Anyone can reach out to their HOA and ask what happens to foreclosures at the resort because all owners pay for it. They should answer this question so I am not sharing insider or confidential info. A few caveats. HOA members are not as knowledgeable about the Point system as you might expect because they go year after year to the resort. As such their focus is on the resort and the resort owners. Rarely is there expertise on what got them elected on timeshare or Marriott. It is there past business experience. Their opinions are no more accurate then anyone else.


Q - I have a question on foreclosures. As the MF continues to go up, some owners have to stop paying and you foreclose. Do those weeks get bundled and given to MVCI and if so, why would Marriott take it when the cost per point is so high and burdens the trust?

A - As for the foreclosures, yes, as of right now, Marriott buys those weeks back and issues them to the trust. They stopped this briefly during the pandemic, but have since restarted. When I asked this question, the Marriott director stated that Marriott is desperate for additional inventory. As more people buy points, more points usages need to be available for them to use. It is one reason why they have been acquiring other groups like Westin. They need the inventory, since they can't build fast enough to meet the demand. Yes, this does burden the trust, but the trust makes up for it in volume at the moment, and is the primary driver in the rise in MF costs for the Trust. It’s just a matter of time before Marriott will be majority owner and can make decisions on their own. Hope that helps

Q - Buys them or gets them for free

A - The ‘buy’ is that they pay the association for the owed MF
Its likely these agreements can be tracked by reading your resort board minutes, posted on the MVC site. I know they have been posted there for MGO. For MGO, the original current buyback agreement was signed in 2018, suspended by an amendment in May 2020 (Covid), and then reinstated with a second amendment in 2021 to start back up in Q2 2022 (but paying retroactive past due MF's on those assets from the suspension date of the first amendment (less any rental fees earned on them by the HOA).)

If you sign into MVC, click Account, then Overview, then on that page, click View Owner Association Documents, you can start reading. Lots of good, detailed info on lots of resort topics can be found there. I no longer can see the original document from 2018, as the archive for MGO only goes back to 2021, but it was there when they signed in back in 2018. The 2021 reinstatement agreement is there.
 
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AlmostRetired

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Its likely these agreements can be tracked by reading your resort board minutes, posted on the MVC site. I know they have been posted there for MGO. For MGO, the original current buyback agreement was signed in 2018, suspended by an amendment in May 2020 (Covid), and then reinstated with a second amendment in 2021 to start back up in Q2 2022 (but paying retroactive past due MF's on those assets from the suspension date of the first amendment (less any rental fees earned on them by the HOA).)

If you sign into MVC, click Account, then Overview, then on that page, click View Owner Association Documents, you can start reading. Lots of good, detailed info on lots of resort topics can be found there. I no longer can see the original document from 2018, as the archive for MGO only goes back to 2021, but it was there when they signed in back in 2018. The 2021 reinstatement agreement is there.
I do not own at the resort of this HOA member. We got to know each other through the group.
 

DanCali

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It’s just a matter of time before Marriott will be majority owner and can make decisions on their own. Hope that helps

This is the scariest part.

I never realized that if you buy Trust points it's "taxation without representation" - you own a sliver of all the resorts but one other entity, which doesn't pay MFs and may have completely different priorities, gets all the voting power. This can't end well for owners.
 

dioxide45

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This is the scariest part.

I never realized that if you buy Trust points it's "taxation without representation" - you own a sliver of all the resorts but one other entity, which doesn't pay MFs and may have completely different priorities, gets all the voting power. This can't end well for owners.
Given that some resorts are at 30% ownership by the trust, we are probably already at this tipping point given the number of owners that vote/don't vote their proxies. Owners also split their vote, MVC trust will always vote theirs in a block.
 
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