[ 2021 ] Major Change to Wyndham VIP Program in Email 7/19/2021 [MERGED]

[Eric B]

Also, I believe it's 1 HK per 70K and 1 RT per 77K - I chose numbers so that it didn't matter.

 

[Manzana]

I wonder how this will affect privileges to the account when some members are on resale contracts and some are on retail accounts. Will the account as a whole still have privileges or will those on resale only have resale privileges

 

[troy12n]

It just occurred to me that one of the reasons they may be disallowing VIP benefits at all on "mixed" reservations is to prevent another loophole.

We don't know exactly how they will implement the new reservation system, but playing devils advocate.

One could potentially make a reservation using 10k retail points and 200k resale points to attempt to "piggyback" their VIP benefits onto the reservation.

In a perfect world, one would (or should) be able to use mixed retail/resale points to complete a reservation. When one bucket is too low. But maybe that would be too difficult to implement...

But you see where i'm going with this.

There are definitely ways to work around these problems, such as, if, when making a reservation, 51% (or some other, arbitrary number) of the reservation is made with retail points, VIP benefits will attach. But this may be too difficult / costly / cumbersome to implement...

If there's one thing we can all agree on, if there's a loophole to exploit, it will be exploited to the extreme degree... and Wyndham may be taking this angle to just stay out of the business of arbitrating these details...

I don't own any resale points, but even I am surprised they are not having something in place to accommodate scenarios like end of year reservations where you need to borrow a point or two. Maybe it may be a scenario where owner care can step in, in niche circumstances to override this?

 

[cbyrne1174]

This connects to something I think about a lot, and have said more than once: Timeshare is a product that is sold rather than bought. Almost no one wakes up in the morning thinking: "Today I'm going to go out and obligate myself to a lifetime of the maintenance and upkeep of (a part of) a luxury condo that I can't easily divest myself from." But, that's exactly what a resale buyer is doing: they made the decision to buy and went out looking for something, found it, and bought it.

If you hang around TUG, you'd think that all kinds of people wake up with exactly this thought. After all, I have--more than once now--and so have most of the rest of you. But, we are "timeshare enthusiasts," and one definition of enthusiast is: someone who is not at all representative of the average customer.

Instead, nearly all timeshares are sold to people who are on vacation. They are having the time of their lives, and while they are there a helpful sales agent explains how they can bottle that magical feeling and experience it again every year for what can be very affordable monthly payments when compared to what they "ordinarily" spend on travel. That sales process is remarkably sophisticated, and it works so well that about half of TUGgers have bought that way--usually before they found their way here, but still.

I knew all of this, but I didn't realize just how "not at all representative" I was (and we are). Because that quoted statistic means that more than 99% of all "owner families" were sold a Wyndham timeshare, and just 0.8% of us bought one. It also explains why the market for a Wyndham timeshare is so favorable to buyers: there are hardly any of us compared to the pool of potential sellers.

IMO resale ownership is the cheapest possible way you can afford the lifestyle. Renting is usually more expensive, especially now that they closed the VIP/resale loophole. 100% resale ownership is the lowest cost and most logical choice, so it's frugal people that do their research who are attracted to resale ownership. I spent about 3 months researching every single major timeshare system (Marriott, Hilton, DVC, Bluegreen, Wastegate, Diamond, Vistana, Wyndham) before I picked Wyndham resale, then spent my sweet time waiting for low MF deeds to pop up that weren't expensive. I mostly found good all my good deals in the winter time. I only picked up what I could use for the next 40+ years.

However, the general population are too stupid to make smart and responsible decisions. [Covid comment redacted]

I think that's why Wyndham has been reducing VIP benefits because they don't want retail purchases to be an educated decision. They want impulse buyers only. That's the type of customer they make the most profit from. There are a decent amount of people who make decent money because they are good at 1 thing, but lack critical thinking skills. All of the active VIPs on this forum bought when it made sense to and are getting their money's worth, even with the new restrictions. I know @Jan M. bought when it was Fairfield, uses almost all of her points 60 days out, and is passing on her PR deed at a low MF resort to her only child and @HitchHiker71 PIC'd to Gold and had a plan to break even in 10 years. Most who bought had a plan to get their money's worth when they bought. However, those deals don't exist anymore because Wyndham canned unlimited HK, making a new VIP purchase useless to the educated buyer, which isn't their target customer because they are the minority of people.

 

[Eric B]

It just occurred to me that one of the reasons they may be disallowing VIP benefits at all on "mixed" reservations is to prevent another loophole.

We don't know exactly how they will implement the new reservation system, but playing devils advocate.

One could potentially make a reservation using 10k retail points and 200k resale points to attempt to "piggyback" their VIP benefits onto the reservation.

In a perfect world, one would (or should) be able to use mixed retail/resale points to complete a reservation. When one bucket is too low. But maybe that would be too difficult to implement...

But you see where i'm going with this.

There are definitely ways to work around these problems, such as, if, when making a reservation, 51% (or some other, arbitrary number) of the reservation is made with retail points, VIP benefits will attach. But this may be too difficult / costly / cumbersome to implement...

If there's one thing we can all agree on, if there's a loophole to exploit, it will be exploited to the extreme degree... and Wyndham may be taking this angle to just stay out of the business of arbitrating these details...

I don't own any resale points, but even I am surprised they are not having something in place to accommodate scenarios like end of year reservations where you need to borrow a point or two. Maybe it may be a scenario where owner care can step in, in niche circumstances to override this?

To an extent, I agree with you. Clearly setting up a system that has loopholes to exploit will result in them being exploited, but I don't view the potential to use the RTs and HKs that someone is paying for as being akin to using what I would view as truly being VIP benefits - the discounts, upgrades, RARP, Margaritaville access, and extra HKs and unlimited RTs that are being paid for out of the VIP program. No doubt it's something that Owner Care could make adjustments for, should they be so inclined, but it would strike me as odd to set up a system where letting someone use what they have already paid for (the RTs/HKs) has to be an exception rather than the rule. If you look at it from the perspective of "I've paid for 10 HKs and 9 RTs in the program fees for my 700,000 VIP-eligible points, but I can't use any of them for this stay because I've also used 5,000 non-VIP-eligible points to book that stay, so I have to pay for an extra HK and RT" it seems like a bad idea. It may be that they aren't setting it up that way and will allow use of the underlying paid-for HKs and RTs, but it's not terribly clear that it will be the case and seems as though it might not work that way based on the posts from @HitchHiker71. It could be that they aren't looking at it all that closely and this is an unintended consequence because hybrid-VIP owners are very much in the minority, but I'm willing to bet that they won't fix it if we don't ask.

 

[Eric B]

One could potentially make a reservation using 10k retail points and 200k resale points to attempt to "piggyback" their VIP benefits onto the reservation.

Specifically to this point - between the 10K retail points and the 200K resale points, the owner has paid for 3 HKs and between 2 and 3 RTs. Having the 10K retail points credited for their 1/7th HK and 10/77th RT wouldn't be piggybacking VIP benefits - piggybacking VIP benefits would be allowing unlimited HKs and RTs because there's some retail in there. That's not going to happen.

 

[HitchHiker71]

It wouldn't surprise me entirely if that's how it gets implemented.

That is how it's being implemented. I verified this on Monday.

It does seem as though it will cause some problems, though, and isn't entirely fair (not that fairness matters all that much). The problem I see is that the VIP program provides benefits that are an increment above what you are already paying for - VIPG gets you 4 extra HKs and 8 extra GCs plus unlimited RTs. If you own X number of points of any kind, you are paying for X/70K HKs, X/77K RTs, and 2 GCs - those are paid for out of the ordinary program fees and aren't really attributable to VIP benefits. It only makes a difference at the margin - there is unlikely to be a case where a hybrid VIP owner makes more than one mixed stay in a year, though that could happen in unusual circumstances. I've got a couple of small resale biennial contracts and a small annual one, which will result in a single HK and RT each year (assuming it's round down - which I believe is the case for the calculation). I'm paying program fees on those plus program fees on my VIPG points, which would in the ordinary course of business get me a certain number of HKs and RTs (GCs won't be limiting as I don't use near my allocation yearly as it is and don't plan on going into the rental business, though I've rented some as a favor to folks). At the margin, I expect that every other year I could be put in the position of needing more RTs and HKs for non-VIP stays; the silly thing about how they account for RTs is they come out of the allocation for the year in which the reservation is made, not when the stay is, so if you have an EOY contract, the RTs can be limiting or you have to fork over an extra $19 because of the potential for making reservations in the off year for stays in the year you have the points in. It's clearly something I can plan around or pay the extra fees for, but seems as though there should be some recognition that what my program fees pay for (i.e., the X/70K HKs and X/77K RTs) aren't VIP benefits, but instead are appurtenant to those points regardless of where they are used, while the extra 4 HKs for being VIPG are clearly VIP benefits as are the additional 8 GCs. That's how the logic works if you follow the money and attribute the status of those things as being VIP benefits to those things the VIP program pays for and at the same time attribute non-VIP status to those things that are paid for annually by the owner through the program fees. If I were writing the rule sets, I would allow for allocation of additional HKs and RTs to the non-VIP usage to the extent that VIP-eligible points are used in mixed reservations; set up that way it wouldn't have the effect of "stripping" the HKs and RTs from those points used in mixed reservations despite the owner paying for them. Might be worth seeking clarification in that vein in the event they haven't thought of that before the program gets implemented.

Thanks for taking the time to type out such a detailed explanation. Unfortunately the use case you're outlining here is likely an outlier case - the above might serve as a good example of what I mean with regard to TUG representing a very small minority of power owners - and Wyndham isn't making these changes based upon the less than 1% that this change impacts. The system coding for the announced changes is complete - I saw a subset of the changes in the devtest system with my own eyes on Monday. I would recommend to wait until after the changes have been released - per the recommendations already shared - and then post actual experiences here after the fact - while also sharing feedback via the website feedback mechanism and/or contacting Owner Resolution to share feedback. Nothing we bring up now will in any way impact the rollout coming in mid-August timeframe. It's already set in stone given we're only a couple weeks away now.

If we want to attempt to provide any feedback on your particular use case - we need to boil it down to something simpler and easier to absorb and understand. If you can boil this down to something that can be captured in 1-2 sentences in a a question format - then we can re-evaluate submission.

 

[HitchHiker71]

But consider someone with a 105K annual contract and a 210K EOYE contract. They would get:

Even year
GCs: 2
HKs: 4
RTs: 4

Odd year
GCs: 2
HKs: 1
RTs: 1

If they use their ARP for an even year stay by making a reservation in the odd year, they use up their allocated non-VIP RTs, but haven't made a reservation for their odd year points. If they were to try to book a mixed stay using the 105K non-VIP plus 255K from VIP, which isn't unreasonable, despite the fact that they've paid for 3 more RTs in the program fee for those 255K VIP points, because it's a mixed stay they wouldn't be able to use them for the transaction unless the RTs that are paid for out of the program fee are not considered VIP RTs.

Think more in terms of developer vs resale benefits - not VIP vs resale. Developer bucket points benefits will not apply to any transaction that contains any resale bucket points. This will apply equally whether the owner is a non-VIP hybrid owner or a VIP hybrid owner.

The program fee doesn't cover the cost of the entire VIP program - it only covers a subset of the basic benefits - the rest is covered by the Sales & Marketing division. I've never seen a detailed breakdown of how the VIP program costs are divided up, but I have heard from multiple folks over time that the way the costs break down is that the program fees cover the costs of benefits that are inclusive to non-VIP ownerships. So for example, the program fees cover the standard contract benefits that any non-VIP retail owner is entitled to - the standard number of GCs/HKs/RTs. My current understanding is that the Sales & Marketing division then pays for any VIP program costs beyond that - so if the VIP owner uses GCs/HKs/RTs beyond what a non-VIP retail owner is entitled to via the standard program fees - then the Sales & Marketing division pays for the difference. With this in mind, why would the Sales & Marketing team continue to pay for any aspect of VIP benefits applied toward resale points? Especially given the announced changes and the separation of developer and resale points buckets. That's essentially the ask if I'm understanding it correctly.

 

[HitchHiker71]

I wonder how this will affect privileges to the account when some members are on resale contracts and some are on retail accounts. Will the account as a whole still have privileges or will those on resale only have resale privileges

That's a good question - I'll add this to our Q&A list.

 

[paxsarah]

so if you have an EOY contract, the RTs can be limiting or you have to fork over an extra $19 because of the potential for making reservations in the off year for stays in the year you have the points in.

Just to correct a misconception, biennial owners receive the same number of RTs every calendar year, based on half the points. I own one odd year contract and two annual contracts. I receive 4 RTs every calendar year. I receive 3 HK in even use years and 5 HK in odd use years. The real issue now is HK in terms of points management vs expense. They spread out the RTs evenly apparently to acknowledge you could book your biennial points in advance during the off year, or during the use year.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Specifically to this point - between the 10K retail points and the 200K resale points, the owner has paid for 3 HKs and between 2 and 3 RTs. Having the 10K retail points credited for their 1/7th HK and 10/77th RT wouldn't be piggybacking VIP benefits - piggybacking VIP benefits would be allowing unlimited HKs and RTs because there's some retail in there. That's not going to happen.

Owners will be able to choose from one of two points buckets when making each reservation. Developer or resale. Owners will have no ability to choose how many points to pull from each bucket. You can simply choose the bucket - one bucket - for one reservation transaction. Per the guidance we've already received - if you choose your resale bucket - and that bucket doesn't have enough points to cover the reservation in scope - then you can either borrow from a future use year bucket, or borrow from the CUY developer bucket - however the entire transaction is still considered a resale transaction at that point for the purposes of GC/HK/RT allotments - because when any resale points are included in the transaction - it will always be considered a resale transaction. If you choose your developer bucket - and that bucket doesn't have enough points to cover the reservation in scope - then you can either borrow from a future use year developer bucket (if in the express window) - or rent points from Wyndham - to complete the developer points transaction - you can never borrow from a resale bucket based upon the guidance we have received.

With all of this in mind, I don't really see how VIP owners could game the new system - but I'll admit I haven't thought through various use cases either.

 

[troy12n]

Something maybe Wyndham should start considering is allowing unused RT and HK roll over year to year...

 

[paxsarah]

Per the guidance we've already received - if you choose your resale bucket - and that bucket doesn't have enough points to cover the reservation in scope - then you can either borrow from a future use year bucket, or borrow from the CUY developer bucket - at which point the entire transaction shifts to a developer bucket transaction for the purposes of GC/HK/RT allotments.

This sounds different from what it says on the website: “When booking using Non-VIP Eligible Points, VIP Eligible Points may be borrowed and any such reservation or transaction will not be eligible for VIP benefits,” and I would assume VIP benefits would include the unlimited/extra GC/HK/RT, or am I wrong?

 

[HitchHiker71]

This sounds different from what it says on the website: “When booking using Non-VIP Eligible Points, VIP Eligible Points may be borrowed and any such reservation or transaction will not be eligible for VIP benefits,” and I would assume VIP benefits would include the unlimited/extra GC/HK/RT, or am I wrong?

Yes - I already corrected my wording - I'm multi-tasking while working so I often end up having to go back and edit after reading my own posts since I'm unable to dedicate most of my thought process to non-work related items during normal business hours.

 

[Pathways]

To an extent, I agree with you. Clearly setting up a system that has loopholes to exploit will result in them being exploited, but I don't view the potential to use the RTs and HKs that someone is paying for as being akin to using what I would view as truly being VIP benefits - the discounts, upgrades, RARP, Margaritaville access, and extra HKs and unlimited RTs that are being paid for out of the VIP program. No doubt it's something that Owner Care could make adjustments for, should they be so inclined, but it would strike me as odd to set up a system where letting someone use what they have already paid for (the RTs/HKs) has to be an exception rather than the rule. If you look at it from the perspective of "I've paid for 10 HKs and 9 RTs in the program fees for my 700,000 VIP-eligible points, but I can't use any of them for this stay because I've also used 5,000 non-VIP-eligible points to book that stay, so I have to pay for an extra HK and RT" it seems like a bad idea. It may be that they aren't setting it up that way and will allow use of the underlying paid-for HKs and RTs, but it's not terribly clear that it will be the case and seems as though it might not work that way based on the posts from @HitchHiker71. It could be that they aren't looking at it all that closely and this is an unintended consequence because hybrid-VIP owners are very much in the minority, but I'm willing to bet that they won't fix it if we don't ask.

Eric - You're not a newbie here

Paragraphs and spacing PLEASE

My old eyes just couldn't handle 3 or 4 of your posts!

 

[Eric B]

Eric - You're not a newbie here

Paragraphs and spacing PLEASE

My old eyes just couldn't handle 3 or 4 of your posts!

Well, I'll take that as a compliment - it was engaging enough that you wanted to read it!

Just to correct a misconception, biennial owners receive the same number of RTs every calendar year, based on half the points. I own one odd year contract and two annual contracts. I receive 4 RTs every calendar year. I receive 3 HK in even use years and 5 HK in odd use years. The real issue now is HK in terms of points management vs expense. They spread out the RTs evenly apparently to acknowledge you could book your biennial points in advance during the off year, or during the use year.

Thanks! That will make my planning a lot easier, getting 3 RTs per year instead of 1 and 4 in alternating years.

The program fee doesn't cover the cost of the entire VIP program - it only covers a subset of the basic benefits - the rest is covered by the Sales & Marketing division. I've never seen a detailed breakdown of how the VIP program costs are divided up, but I have heard from multiple folks over time that the way the costs break down is that the program fees cover the costs of benefits that are inclusive to non-VIP ownerships. So for example, the program fees cover the standard contract benefits that any non-VIP retail owner is entitled to - the standard number of GCs/HKs/RTs. My current understanding is that the Sales & Marketing division then pays for any VIP program costs beyond that - so if the VIP owner uses GCs/HKs/RTs beyond what a non-VIP retail owner is entitled to via the standard program fees - then the Sales & Marketing division pays for the difference. With this in mind, why would the Sales & Marketing team continue to pay for any aspect of VIP benefits applied toward resale points? Especially given the announced changes and the separation of developer and resale points buckets. That's essentially the ask if I'm understanding it correctly.

That's close to the heart of the issue as I see it. Given the smoothing of the RT allocations for EOY ownerships, it might not come up except in unusual circumstances, but it's worth thinking about when you develop a complicated system like this. I would phrase the ask like this:

"The conventional wisdom amongst owners is that the program fees they pay cover the corresponding housekeeping credits and reservation transactions they are allocated. For VIP owners, this is supplemented by funding from sales and marketing for credits and transactions above the normal allocation. Because the ruleset for this update to the program does not allow use of the normal allocation of housekeeping credits and reservation transactions paid for by a VIP owner who uses a combination of developer and resale points in a stay, this has the unintended consequences of stripping the credits and transactions the owner has paid for. Would Wyndham consider establishing as a policy for Owner Care that a VIP owner making a mixed transaction could use one housekeeping credit allocated to the VIP points if there are at least 70,000 VIP-eligible points used and one reservation transaction if there are at least 77,000 VIP-eligible points used? Such a policy would act to restore the appropriate relationship between the funding source for the housekeeping credits and reservation transactions while avoiding either the potential for gaming the system or the inappropriate attribution of sales and marketing as the source of funding for them. It could also form the basis for a future revision to the Benefit Summary system."

 

[Zekes]

No need to use hybrid points to complete a resale reservation. Just borrow from next year's resale bucket

 

[Pathways]

Well, I'll take that as a compliment - it was engaging enough that you wanted to read it!

Please do - always like your perspective

 

[Eric B]

No need to use hybrid points to complete a resale reservation. Just borrow from next year's resale bucket

Not sure the incentives line up for that. Borrowing from next year's resale bucket would be just in the express reservation window and the best (IMHO) use for a worthwhile resale ownership is either in ARP or at 10 months for a high cost stay. Once you get to the express window, you're probably better off using VIP points and seeking the discounts/upgrades.

 

[Zekes]

You probably right if you are in the 60 day window. If you are outside, its beneficial to borrow. VIP points are 2.5 times more valuable that Resale points (M fee wise). If I preserve my VIP points (and unlimited HK) for 60 day and upgrade window trips, we can take more 2-3 day trips to Bonnet Creek and Ocean Walk.

 

[raygo123]

Not sure the incentives line up for that. Borrowing from next year's resale bucket would be just in the express reservation window and the best (IMHO) use for a worthwhile resale ownership is either in ARP or at 10 months for a high cost stay. Once you get to the express window, you're probably better off using VIP points and seeking the discounts/upgrades.

Would that not be true for any bucket?: The VIP BUCKET as well? The last night rule as well.

Sent from my Lenovo TB-X606F using Tapatalk

 

[rickandcindy23]

This connects to something I think about a lot, and have said more than once: Timeshare is a product that is sold rather than bought. Almost no one wakes up in the morning thinking: "Today I'm going to go out and obligate myself to a lifetime of the maintenance and upkeep of (a part of) a luxury condo that I can't easily divest myself from." But, that's exactly what a resale buyer is doing: they made the decision to buy and went out looking for something, found it, and bought it.

If you hang around TUG, you'd think that all kinds of people wake up with exactly this thought. After all, I have--more than once now--and so have most of the rest of you. But, we are "timeshare enthusiasts," and one definition of enthusiast is: someone who is not at all representative of the average customer.

Instead, nearly all timeshares are sold to people who are on vacation. They are having the time of their lives, and while they are there a helpful sales agent explains how they can bottle that magical feeling and experience it again every year for what can be very affordable monthly payments when compared to what they "ordinarily" spend on travel. That sales process is remarkably sophisticated, and it works so well that about half of TUGgers have bought that way--usually before they found their way here, but still.

I knew all of this, but I didn't realize just how "not at all representative" I was (and we are). Because that quoted statistic means that more than 99% of all "owner families" were sold a Wyndham timeshare, and just 0.8% of us bought one. It also explains why the market for a Wyndham timeshare is so favorable to buyers: there are hardly any of us compared to the pool of potential sellers.

Very well thought out. I agree 100% with you. I think that is why Orlando became so inundated with timeshares. The magical Disney experience mixed with the idea of going every year and staying in a nice place over a hotel room.

I have seen timeshare salespeople take a buyer into the lockoff studio side first, then walk through the door into the big living area with the full kitchen second. They say, "This is basically what you are staying in at your hotel...(cue lockoff door opening)...and this is what timeshare is about, spreading out and really relaxing in a place that feels like home." I remember at Cypress Pointe there was a lady in the kitchen baking cookies and holding the plate out to all of us on the tour. I remember thinking it was such a clever idea. That was in 1991. 30 years ago!

 

[ronparise]

IMO resale ownership is the cheapest possible way you can afford the lifestyle. Renting is usually more expensive, especially now that they closed the VIP/resale loophole. 100% resale ownership is the lowest cost and most logical choice, so it's frugal people that do their research who are attracted to resale ownership. I spent about 3 months researching every single major timeshare system (Marriott, Hilton, DVC, Bluegreen, Wastegate, Diamond, Vistana, Wyndham) before I picked Wyndham resale, then spent my sweet time waiting for low MF deeds to pop up that weren't expensive. I mostly found good all my good deals in the winter time. I only picked up what I could use for the next 40+ years.

However, the general population (at least in FL), are too stupid to make smart and responsible decisions. [ Covid comment redacted ]

I think that's why Wyndham has been reducing VIP benefits because they don't want retail purchases to be an educated decision. They want impulse buyers only. That's the type of customer they make the most profit from. There are a decent amount of people who make decent money because they are good at 1 thing, but lack critical thinking skills. All of the active VIPs on this forum bought when it made sense to and are getting their money's worth, even with the new restrictions. I know @Jan M. bought when it was Fairfield, uses almost all of her points 60 days out, and is passing on her PR deed at a low MF resort to her only child and @HitchHiker71 PIC'd to Gold and had a plan to break even in 10 years. Most who bought had a plan to get their money's worth when they bought. However, those deals don't exist anymore because Wyndham canned unlimited HK, making a new VIP purchase useless to the educated buyer, which isn't their target customer because they are the minority of people.

i agree completely with what yousay about Covid and Floridians but let’s not talk about that, it’s a little off topic and I would end up getting political

and I agree with you about the best way, or at least the best way or at least the most financially advantageous to buy Wyndham points. Is on the secondary market

if someone buys 1 million points for $150000 with $5000 per year fees and reserves all his vacations in the discount window I would need 2 million secondary market points to match his usage. My up front costs will be something like $10000 and my annual cost twice what the other guys pays

At the end of 20 years the guy that bought from Wyndham will have paid $250,000 and the secondary market buyer will have paid $210,000

I know I didn’t account for ever increasing maintenance fees and that would probably result in the secondary market guy paying more in the 20 years I assumed. But neither did I assume interest on a loan the first guy will spend if he borrows to buy his points. And if we compare cash buyers The first guy will have nothing at the end and the second guy will have his money still in the bank

 

[cbyrne1174]

i agree completely with what yousay about Covid and Floridians but let’s not talk about that, it’s a little off topic and I would end up getting political

and I agree with you about the best way, or at least the best way or at least the most financially advantageous to buy Wyndham points. Is on the secondary market

if someone buys 1 million points for $150000 with $5000 per year fees and reserves all his vacations in the discount window I would need 2 million secondary market points to match his usage. My up front costs will be something like $10000 and my annual cost twice what the other guys pays

At the end of 20 years the guy that bought from Wyndham will have paid $250,000 and the secondary market buyer will have paid $210,000

I know I didn’t account for ever increasing maintenance fees and that would probably result in the secondary market guy paying more in the 20 years I assumed. But neither did I assume interest on a loan the first guy will spend if he borrows to buy his points. And if we compare cash buyers The first guy will have nothing at the end and the second guy will have his money still in the bank

You can also compare how much money the person could have made investing into a safe index fund (like the S&P). Does the person paying cash also max out their Roth IRA every year? That's an average of 10% tax free growth on 6k per person per year. That's 45k of tax free income over 10 years with a 10% return. So if your purchase costed you 60k, you lost out on 45k of growth if you weren't already maxing out your retirement account.

 

[cbyrne1174]

Yep, our governor is too busy sucking up to the lowest common denominator than making smart decisions. And a good percentage of our residents are following him off the cliff. I got my vaccine in March.

Well that's the customer Wyndham is trying to sell to. When I was at an update at BC this summer, I got gifted before the presentation even started lol. $150 for 10 minutes of my time!