[ 2021 ] Major Change to Wyndham VIP Program in Email 7/19/2021 [MERGED]

[chapjim]

Many thanks to HitchHiker71 and Richelle for their uncompensated hard work on our behalf!

 

[HitchHiker71]

Has any date or date range been published for when exactly this new system will be released? I haven't seen a concrete date yet.

Nothing other than mid-August at this time. I'll make the ask as to whether they will send another email communication when we get closer to the actual release date - or otherwise. If any issue occurs that would delay the feature release - it could easily slide to late August for example. The sprint release date won't change - but what is actually released into production for that specific sprint would change. If there's any delay during final QA - the entire feature release could be delayed until the next regularly scheduled sprint. It all depends on how they are using agile.

 

[rickandcindy23]

I hope this is going to be true. I can get out gracefully, if this is the case.

• Will more detailed information be provided on the rulesets used for the current use year audits?
  • No fees will be charged due to retroactive changes from any audits. For future use years - if you have already used what would normally have been allotted - you will not be charged fees for using beyond those allotments - however you will have zero balances for those allotments for the current and/or future use years in scope.

 

[keno999]

Thanks! Truly appreciate the extra effort you make.

@TUGBrian, not sure what the criteria is for lifetime membership, but if it’s value added….

Agree with that! Heck, I'd pay for an extra year of HitchHiker71's TUG dues myself.

 

[snickers104]

"actually only 4000 owner accounts out of"


Maybe 4000 VIP owners with resale points....but I would think there are many more resale owners than that.

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[ausman]

Case in point - one thing we learned in our travels during this latest review process - we were able to determine that there are actually only 4000 owner accounts out of 500k Wyndham CWP accounts total that hold resale contracts and the resale contracts only number in the low 2xk range at present. That means less than 1% of Wyndham owners own resale, and VIP is only a subset of that number. This change was very targeted in other words - and while many TUG owners seem to care a great deal about this change - the vast majority of Wyndham owners could care less - and actually see this all as a very positive development as some here on TUG have argued - and they are in point of fact correct - based upon the numbers at least.

I'd like to understand this correctly, but am uncertain as to what 2xk means.

Is it 20,000? which would mean there are only 4,000 resale owners who hold 20,000 contracts or something else.

 

[SueDonJ]

Answers from Wyndham on our outstanding list of questions below. The answers provided have been officially reviewed and approved by Wyndham for public consumption:

• If you need to combine both VIP eligible and non eligible points for a large reservation and thus book using non-VIP eligible and borrow some of your VIP-eligible points, will the points used from both buckets combine for ARP purposes (e.g. if you own both retail and resale CWA contracts)?
  • Yes, whether with CWS or CWA and across both the developer and resale points buckets - same ARP contract combination rules as are in place today.

• Will Wyndham require a separate Points Deposit Fee for VIP and non-VIP points in different buckets?
  • No, but resale will be prioritized over retail for PDF transactions. Just like today - separate PDF transactions will result in separate fees.

• If you are short points on a VIP reservation could you choose to borrow points from the next Use Year even when you have resale points available in same use year?
  • Yes, normal borrowing should apply but if any amount of resale points are borrowed the reservation will be considered a resale reservation and VIP benefits will not apply.

• Are Wyndham Owner Care reps being trained in advance on how to answer inquiries related to these somewhat complex changes?
  • Yes they are.

• Will more detailed information be provided on the rulesets used for the current use year audits?
  • No fees will be charged due to retroactive changes from any audits. For future use years - if you have already used what would normally have been allotted - you will not be charged fees for using beyond those allotments - however you will have zero balances for those allotments for the current and/or future use years in scope.

• Will Wyndham publish recommended best practices for how to utilize the different points buckets for the impacted VIP owners?
  • No - because the variety of use cases and the minority of owners impacted (only 4000 owners currently hold resale contracts consisting of roughly 2xk contracts).

• Will Wyndham be making any changes to how resale contracts function for reservations? For example, will resale contracts still support ARP reservations for the home resort(s)?
  • No, no additional changes for resale are in scope for this planned change other than what has already been announced to VIP owners.

• Statement: “Non-VIP Eligible Points will follow the standard booking timeline and VIP Eligible Points will have an extended booking timeline for reservations and transactions, in accordance with existing VIP guidelines.” What extended timeline do VIP eligible points have (other than RARP or Margaritaville, which are mentioned elsewhere)?
  • The statement was meant to address VIP privileges such as RARP, MVC booking windows, etc. No changes to resale contracts are planned.

• How will this change impact reservations made already in future use years?
  • It won't. For resale transactions - if your allotments of GCs/HKs/RTs have already been used - a zero balance will show post system change - no negative balances and/or additional fees will be charged retroactively.

• For hybrid VIP owners that hold both retail and resale contracts. Will we receive separate dedicated GCs, HKs, and RTs for our resale contract points? For example, as a VIPG owner, I receive 10 complimentary GCs today. Will I receive the traditional two GCs and associated amount of HKs and RTs for my resale bucket points, in addition to the complimentary VIPG GCs I already am entitled to? Will the HKs and RTs round up or down if the points don't exactly match the 77k and 70k thresholds?
  • Yes. Resale contracts will hold their own dedicated GCs, HKs, and RTs for usage, following the standard Club allocations.

• When borrowing points from future use years for reservations, will you be able to choose from developer/resale points buckets? Or will the system automatically make that determination somehow?
  • Yes you will choose which points bucket from which to borrow.

• If an owner does not agree with any of the audit changes, will Wyndham work with them or are the allocation decisions final?
  • Please contact Owner Resolution with any questions or concerns.

• Will Wyndham offer free transactions for any reservations that need to be canceled/rebooked/changed based on the new system?
  • Please contact Owner Resolution with any questions or concerns.

• Will there be any additional HK credits and/or RTs allotted to owners to ensure account wholeness through the rest of the current use year?
  • At most the balances would be zero'd out - no negative balances will exist. Please contact Owner Resolution with any questions or concerns.

• When does Wyndham recommend owners reach out for help? Before or after the go-live date?
  • The best practice is to wait until go-live before contacting Owner Resolution as many of the answers won't really make sense until you see the system changes for yourself.

• When will the member directory be updated to reflect these changes?
  • Sometime between Q3 and Q4 is the expected release date for the updated member directory.

• What, if any effect, does this change have for things like using outrigger banked points in future years to book longer stays at outrigger locations? So e.g. if you bank all outrigger account points from 2021 to 2022 can you book ALL those points at outrigger in 2022?
  • Yes all points should be useable in future use years - no changes are taking place that would impact this use case scenario.

• Do the points buckets remain segregated when banking into future use years?
  • Yes. When performing PDFs you should be able to choose from All Points, Developer Points, or Resale points buckets. If you choose All points, resale points will transfer automatically before Developer points. If you choose more points than your resale bucket has available, then the remainder of the points will be taken from your Developer points bucket. Separate transactions will warrant separate fees - just as they do today.

As someone who tries to use Marriott contacts sparingly but when necessary in order to flesh out corporate policy that vexes even knowledgeable TUGgers, I know that success is never guaranteed, the answers usually aren't as comprehensive as we would like, and they don't easily give permission for public consumption. Whatever your connection might be, obviously it's VERY appreciated by all those affected. I don't own Wyndham, don't understand half of this info, but still I say THANK YOU for your contributions. VERY NICE!

 

[troy12n]

I'd like to understand this correctly, but am uncertain as to what 2xk means.

Is it 20,000? which would mean there are only 4,000 resale owners who hold 20,000 contracts or something else.

My translation of that is "20 something thousand"... between 20k-30k. He's using tech or math lingo where x is a variable

So 4000 something owners own 20 something thousand resale contracts, out of 500,000 something owners.

In other words, a drop in the bucket, a very minority ownership percentage, that can apparently make quite a buttload of reservations and really tip the apple cart

 

[HitchHiker71]

I'd like to understand this correctly, but am uncertain as to what 2xk means.

Is it 20,000? which would mean there are only 4,000 resale owners who hold 20,000 contracts or something else.

Correct. Roughly 4000 owners that collectively hold a total of roughly 2x,000 resale contracts. What I cannot ascertain is if that number represents resale only owners, as opposed to hybrid owners for example. Many on the FB groups have responded to this number surmising it represents only the number of VIP resale owners impacted. Your guess is as good as mine. Honestly it’s not easy to get detailed answers on these data points, so I take what I can get when I can get it. I've made the ask for clarification - but no promises of course.


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[kaljor]

Wow. I am shocked that only 4000 owners hold resale points,

 

[raygo123]

Wow. I am shocked that only 4000 owners hold resale points,

That's 3,000,000,000 AT THE LEAST! Now with VIP benefits, 6 billion points!.
Then if you book again, 9 billion.

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[paxsarah]

That's 3,000,000,000 AT THE LEAST! Now with VIP benefits, 6 billion points!.
Then if you book again, 9 billion.

Sent from my Lenovo TB-X606F using Tapatalk

Not all of those 4,000 resale owners have been using their resale points with VIP benefits. Some (probably plenty) of them are nobodies like me. Others are retail owners who may have added resale before ever reaching VIP. Others may, yes, be VIPs who added a small resale contract or few to supplement their retail ownership. Only a very small percentage of resale owners would be VIPs who own at least an equivalent number of resale points. They may have a disproportionate impact, but they exist in very small numbers.

 

[bnoble]

Wow. I am shocked that only 4000 owners hold resale points,

This connects to something I think about a lot, and have said more than once: Timeshare is a product that is sold rather than bought. Almost no one wakes up in the morning thinking: "Today I'm going to go out and obligate myself to a lifetime of the maintenance and upkeep of (a part of) a luxury condo that I can't easily divest myself from." But, that's exactly what a resale buyer is doing: they made the decision to buy and went out looking for something, found it, and bought it.

If you hang around TUG, you'd think that all kinds of people wake up with exactly this thought. After all, I have--more than once now--and so have most of the rest of you. But, we are "timeshare enthusiasts," and one definition of enthusiast is: someone who is not at all representative of the average customer.

Instead, nearly all timeshares are sold to people who are on vacation. They are having the time of their lives, and while they are there a helpful sales agent explains how they can bottle that magical feeling and experience it again every year for what can be very affordable monthly payments when compared to what they "ordinarily" spend on travel. That sales process is remarkably sophisticated, and it works so well that about half of TUGgers have bought that way--usually before they found their way here, but still.

I knew all of this, but I didn't realize just how "not at all representative" I was (and we are). Because that quoted statistic means that more than 99% of all "owner families" were sold a Wyndham timeshare, and just 0.8% of us bought one. It also explains why the market for a Wyndham timeshare is so favorable to buyers: there are hardly any of us compared to the pool of potential sellers.

 

[HitchHiker71]

This connects to something I think about a lot, and have said more than once: Timeshare is a product that is sold rather than bought. Almost no one wakes up in the morning thinking: "Today I'm going to go out and obligate myself to a lifetime of the maintenance and upkeep of (a part of) a luxury condo that I can't easily divest myself from." But, that's exactly what a resale buyer is doing: they made the decision to buy and went out looking for something, found it, and bought it.

If you hang around TUG, you'd think that all kinds of people wake up with exactly this thought. After all, I have--more than once now--and so have most of the rest of you. But, we are "timeshare enthusiasts," and one definition of enthusiast is: someone who is not at all representative of the average customer.

Instead, nearly all timeshares are sold to people who are on vacation. They are having the time of their lives, and while they are there a helpful sales agent explains how they can bottle that magical feeling and experience it again every year for what can be very affordable monthly payments when compared to what they "ordinarily" spend on travel. That sales process is remarkably sophisticated, and it works so well that about half of TUGgers have bought that way--usually before they found their way here, but still.

I knew all of this, but I didn't realize just how "not at all representative" I was (and we are). Because that quoted statistic means that more than 99% of all "owner families" were sold a Wyndham timeshare, and just 0.8% of us bought one. It also explains why the market for a Wyndham timeshare is so favorable to buyers: there are hardly any of us compared to the pool of potential sellers.

Wyndham just published their Q2 2021 earnings results, here's an excerpt that reinforces what you're saying here:

Business Segment Results

The results of operations during the second quarter of 2021 and 2020 include impacts related to the
COVID-19 global pandemic, which have been significantly negative to the travel industry, the Company, its
customers and employees. Refer to Table 8 for a breakout of COVID-19 related impacts.

Vacation Ownership $ in millions	Q2 2021	Q2 2020	% change
Revenue	$599	$238	152%
Adjusted EBITDA	$133	($12)	1208%

Vacation Ownership revenue increased 152% to $599 million in the second quarter of 2021 compared to
the same period in the prior year. Gross vacation ownership interest (VOI) sales were $383 million
compared to $18 million in the prior year and tours were 117,000 during the quarter compared to 6,000 in
the same period last year. Volume Per Guest (VPG) was $3,151 due to strong close rates and higher
quality tours.

So last quarter, Wyndham sold $383mm in gross VOIs. If we assume an average sale of $25,000, that's 15,320 net new ownerships. Compare that to how often we see rescission posts here on TUG. It's a drop in the bucket in other words. That certainly doesn't mean we don't continue to preach the resale message here on TUG - but it reinforces your point - that resale is still a relative unknown to the vast majority of timeshare purchasers. It also reinforces the fact that the representative user base here on TUG is very much the exception, not the rule.

 

[dioxide45]

Are Wyndham Owner Care reps being trained in advance on how to answer inquiries related to these somewhat complex changes?

• Yes they are.

This may amount to a mass email being sent out to Owner Care reps. Half of which won't even read it.

 

[HitchHiker71]

This may amount to a mass email being sent out to Owner Care reps. Half of which won't even read it.

One of the two individuals Richelle and I worked with on our Zoom meeting on Monday is a manager in Owner Resolution (Owner Care) - the other was in Wyndham education and will be running the upcoming webinar education sessions that have been published. The Owner Resolution manager was instrumental in providing us the Q&A guidance I shared for public consumption. Granted, he's only one manager - but he was very knowledgeable about the upcoming changes and had ready access to the test systems with the new functionality. I'm sure not everyone in OR will be as knowledgeable as he was, but the fact that he has the knowledge - shows that people in that division have been included and are quite knowledgeable about the upcoming changes.

 

[bnoble]

Compare that to how often we see rescission posts here on TUG. It's a drop in the bucket in other words.

I've thought about this a lot too, and it is tied into the same line of thinking.

Put yourself for a moment in the position of that vacationer who liked what they heard about bottling that magical vacation feeling "at today's prices," or what have you. If you've been to a presentation (or even heard from someone else who has) you know that the math behind the sales pitch is at best dubious. For example, they typically use straight-line depreciation to account for the annual cost of the purchase price. However, anyone who paid attention in high school economics knows about the time-value of money; if they remember that lesson, they should immediately balk.

My brother is a good example. He and his partner were consultants for many years, and concentrated their hotel spend at Hilton. Along the way, HGVC talked them into one of their marketing trips, and the agent did exactly this. Now, my brother is a smart guy with an MBA from a school very comfortably in the top 20. He knows his way around a financial disclosure, and he called the agent on this maneuver. Later in the presentation, the agent did it again. At that point, my brother stood up, and said: "It's clear that either you're stupid, or you think I am. Either way, this discussion is over." He walked out.

But, lots of people still buy. Is that because they never learned high school economics? Probably not, because they also have mortgages, loans, investments in stock market indexes, etc. all of which are critically dependent on the time value of money. Instead, I think it is because in this case, they do not want to think about it. They are making an aspirational purchase to improve their family's lives and make vacation a priority. The (bogus!) financial argument is just a fig leaf that let's them tell themselves that they are saving money, and not spending money.

When that person gets home, they do not go looking for reasons why the financial argument was wrong because again they don't want it to be. So, they never find TUG until years later, if at all. Heck, we even see people who come here to ask if they should rescind, being told unequivocally "Yes!" and then arguing about it; that in their case, really it was a good idea, wasn't it?

 

[Eric B]

For hybrid VIP owners that hold both retail and resale contracts. Will we receive separate dedicated GCs, HKs, and RTs for our resale contract points? For example, as a VIPG owner, I receive 10 complimentary GCs today. Will I receive the traditional two GCs and associated amount of HKs and RTs for my resale bucket points, in addition to the complimentary VIPG GCs I already am entitled to? Will the HKs and RTs round up or down if the points don't exactly match the 77k and 70k thresholds?

• Yes. Resale contracts will hold their own dedicated GCs, HKs, and RTs for usage, following the standard Club allocations.

The answer they provided to this question still leaves me wondering what the implementation will be. Could you ask a follow up question on what the outcome will be for the example that was provided in the original question - for a VIPG with resale contracts would it be 10 VIP GCs and 2 non-VIP GCs or will it be 8 VIP GCs and 2 non-VIP GCs? I could make a case for either one, while the first (10 + 2) seems more appropriate because it gives the proper number of VIP GCs to use with the VIP-eligible points there could be hesitancy in giving an extra 2 GCs.

Also, being VIPG prior to the last change I have unlimited HKs and RTs presently and will continue to have them after the update. I only have a small number of resale points that I believe will result in only getting 1 HK and 1 RT every other year. Given the ruleset they provided, if I use my HK & RT on one stay in the year, then desire to book another stay in that year by combining my VIP-eligible and non-VIP-eligible points, it would appear that I would need to purchase another HK & RT since I can't use the unlimited HKs & RTs for the transaction. For a VIPG after the last change to the program, their account would have XXX/70K HKs plus 4 VIPG HKs (where XXX is the number of points being considered). For the purposes of the ruleset, are the HKs per 70K points for the VIP-eligible points considered VIP HKs that cannot be used when staying using mixed points or should they be considered non-VIP HKs since they do not exist as a result of VIP status but instead exist as a result of the ownership of the underlying points? Giving a number of points to illustrate this, assume a VIPG owner has 800,000 VIP-eligible points purchased after the last change and therefore has 11 HKs because of the points and 4 HKs because of being VIPG. If that owner has another 100,000 non-VIP-eligible points with the accompanying 1 HK and uses that HK for a stay using 70,000 non-VIP-eligible points, then desires to stay again using the remaining 30,000 non-VIP-eligible points plus 70,000 VIP-eligible points, could the owner use the HK that would have come with the VIP-eligible points regardless of their status or is that one considered a VIP HK that cannot be used? A similar question applies to the reservation transactions that would have come with the point ownership regardless of VIPG status with unlimited RTs - for a reservation made after using the RTs native to the non-VIP-eligible points can the owner use the RTs that would have been assigned to the VIP-eligible points if they were non-VIP-eligible points based on the fact that they are already being paid for out of the program fees on those points?

 

[HitchHiker71]

I've thought about this a lot too, and it is tied into the same line of thinking.

Put yourself for a moment in the position of that vacationer who liked what they heard about bottling that magical vacation feeling "at today's prices," or what have you. If you've been to a presentation (or even heard from someone else who has) you know that the math behind the sales pitch is at best dubious. For example, they typically use straight-line depreciation to account for the annual cost of the purchase price. However, anyone who paid attention in high school economics knows about the time-value of money; if they remember that lesson, they should immediately balk.

My brother is a good example. He and his partner were consultants for many years, and concentrated their hotel spend at Hilton. Along the way, HGVC talked them into one of their marketing trips, and the agent did exactly this. Now, my brother is a smart guy with an MBA from a school very comfortably in the top 20. He knows his way around a financial disclosure, and he called the agent on this maneuver. Later in the presentation, the agent did it again. At that point, my brother stood up, and said: "It's clear that either you're stupid, or you think I am. Either way, this discussion is over." He walked out.

But, lots of people still buy. Is that because they never learned high school economics? Probably not, because they also have mortgages, loans, investments in stock market indexes, etc. all of which are critically dependent on the time value of money. Instead, I think it is because in this case, they do not want to think about it. They are making an aspirational purchase to improve their family's lives and make vacation a priority. The (bogus!) financial argument is just a fig leaf that let's them tell themselves that they are saving money, and not spending money.

When that person gets home, they do not go looking for reasons why the financial argument was wrong because again they don't want it to be. So, they never find TUG until years later, if at all. Heck, we even see people who come here to ask if they should rescind, being told unequivocally "Yes!" and then arguing about it; that in their case, really it was a good idea, wasn't it?

The premise of the points you are outlining are in the following article under item #1:

Is timesharing right for me?

The purpose of this article is to establish what we consider to be a few hard and fast rules to live by when attempting to determine conceptually if timeshare ownership is a good match to meet your…

wyndhamexperts.org

The wording and examples used are a bit different, references to encouraging impulse buys while on vacation when your collective guard is down and so forth. We initially bought retail down in Myrtle Beach but I found TUG right after and ended up rescinding and then buying back in via PIC Plus a month or so later, and then acquiring resale after my initial PIC retail purchase. It's not what our standard recommended approach is here on TUG - resale only - or at least at first - with any retail purchase coming much later down the line if at all. The following article does a good job of portraying the timeshare acquisition pattern most folks should follow:

I did the wrong thing. What do I do now?

So, you’ve read our ‘Did I Do the Right Thing?’ blog article, and you’re pretty sure you fall into the category of ‘I did the wrong thing.’ What do you do now? B…

wyndhamexperts.org

 

[HitchHiker71]

The answer they provided to this question still leaves me wondering what the implementation will be. Could you ask a follow up question on what the outcome will be for the example that was provided in the original question - for a VIPG with resale contracts would it be 10 VIP GCs and 2 non-VIP GCs or will it be 8 VIP GCs and 2 non-VIP GCs? I could make a case for either one, while the first (10 + 2) seems more appropriate because it gives the proper number of VIP GCs to use with the VIP-eligible points there could be hesitancy in giving an extra 2 GCs.

I specifically had this conversation with the two Wyndham folks - according to my understanding the VIP complimentary GCs will stand apart from the resale GCs allocated. Essentially each points bucket will have it's own set of allocations for GC/HK/RT. If you are VIP - your developer bucket will have whatever your VIP benefits entitle you to. For me that would be 10 GCs and unlimited HK/RT since I'm grandfathered VIPG. My resale points bucket will have 2 GCs and the appropriate amount of HK/RT dependent upon the point value of the contract (rounded down).

Also, being VIPG prior to the last change I have unlimited HKs and RTs presently and will continue to have them after the update. I only have a small number of resale points that I believe will result in only getting 1 HK and 1 RT every other year. Given the ruleset they provided, if I use my HK & RT on one stay in the year, then desire to book another stay in that year by combining my VIP-eligible and non-VIP-eligible points, it would appear that I would need to purchase another HK & RT since I can't use the unlimited HKs & RTs for the transaction. For a VIPG after the last change to the program, their account would have XXX/70K HKs plus 4 VIPG HKs (where XXX is the number of points being considered). For the purposes of the ruleset, are the HKs per 70K points for the VIP-eligible points considered VIP HKs that cannot be used when staying using mixed points or should they be considered non-VIP HKs since they do not exist as a result of VIP status but instead exist as a result of the ownership of the underlying points? Giving a number of points to illustrate this, assume a VIPG owner has 800,000 VIP-eligible points purchased after the last change and therefore has 11 HKs because of the points and 4 HKs because of being VIPG. If that owner has another 100,000 non-VIP-eligible points with the accompanying 1 HK and uses that HK for a stay using 70,000 non-VIP-eligible points, then desires to stay again using the remaining 30,000 non-VIP-eligible points plus 70,000 VIP-eligible points, could the owner use the HK that would have come with the VIP-eligible points regardless of their status or is that one considered a VIP HK that cannot be used? A similar question applies to the reservation transactions that would have come with the point ownership regardless of VIPG status with unlimited RTs - for a reservation made after using the RTs native to the non-VIP-eligible points can the owner use the RTs that would have been assigned to the VIP-eligible points if they were non-VIP-eligible points based on the fact that they are already being paid for out of the program fees on those points?

My understanding is if any resale bucket points are used - VIP benefits will not apply - only resale bucket benefits will apply. Think in terms of benefits tied to each bucket - so if/when the resale bucket is used - in any capacity whatsoever - then only the allotments from the resale benefits will apply - so whatever GC/HK/RT allotments exist in your resale bucket would be used to process the reservation transaction. If you want your Developer bucket allotments to be used - the points used must only be from the Developer points bucket.

 

[troy12n]

One thing, i've never had to deal with RT/HK because i'm VIP so I don't really know how it works, but my general understanding is you get 1 RT and HK credit per ~70k points you own. Does Wyndham even sell contracts with less than that?

70K doesn't get you much these days, I think you would be hard pressed to find a location where you can get a full week somewhere for that, if you are looking to just book a weekend somewhere even. I know I just blew 78k this past weekend at Clearwater for 3 nights in a 1BR, and that was after my VIPG discount inside 60 days. Will this even be an issue?

 

[HitchHiker71]

One thing, i've never had to deal with RT/HK because i'm VIP so I don't really know how it works, but my general understanding is you get 1 RT and HK credit per ~70k points you own. Does Wyndham even sell contracts with less than that?

70K doesn't get you much these days, I think you would be hard pressed to find a location where you can get a full week somewhere for that, if you are looking to just book a weekend somewhere even. I know I just blew 78k this past weekend at Clearwater for 3 nights in a 1BR, and that was after my VIPG discount inside 60 days. Will this even be an issue?

I'm in the same boat, I've not had to worry about HK/RT. I've got a 689k NH resale contract. I believe the math is:

HK: points/77k = HK credits (rounded down)
RT: points/70k = RT credits (rounded down)

So for my contract I'd receive:

GCs: 2
HKs: 8
RTs: 8

 

[Eric B]

My understanding is if any resale bucket points are used - VIP benefits will not apply - only resale bucket benefits will apply. Think in terms of benefits tied to each bucket - so if/when the resale bucket is used - in any capacity whatsoever - then only the allotments from the resale benefits will apply - so whatever GC/HK/RT allotments exist in your resale bucket would be used to process the reservation transaction. If you want your Developer bucket allotments to be used - the points used must only be from the Developer points bucket.

It wouldn't surprise me entirely if that's how it gets implemented. It does seem as though it will cause some problems, though, and isn't entirely fair (not that fairness matters all that much). The problem I see is that the VIP program provides benefits that are an increment above what you are already paying for - VIPG gets you 4 extra HKs and 8 extra GCs plus unlimited RTs. If you own X number of points of any kind, you are paying for X/70K HKs, X/77K RTs, and 2 GCs - those are paid for out of the ordinary program fees and aren't really attributable to VIP benefits. It only makes a difference at the margin - there is unlikely to be a case where a hybrid VIP owner makes more than one mixed stay in a year, though that could happen in unusual circumstances. I've got a couple of small resale biennial contracts and a small annual one, which will result in a single HK and RT each year (assuming it's round down - which I believe is the case for the calculation). I'm paying program fees on those plus program fees on my VIPG points, which would in the ordinary course of business get me a certain number of HKs and RTs (GCs won't be limiting as I don't use near my allocation yearly as it is and don't plan on going into the rental business, though I've rented some as a favor to folks). At the margin, I expect that every other year I could be put in the position of needing more RTs and HKs for non-VIP stays; the silly thing about how they account for RTs is they come out of the allocation for the year in which the reservation is made, not when the stay is, so if you have an EOY contract, the RTs can be limiting or you have to fork over an extra $19 because of the potential for making reservations in the off year for stays in the year you have the points in. It's clearly something I can plan around or pay the extra fees for, but seems as though there should be some recognition that what my program fees pay for (i.e., the X/70K HKs and X/77K RTs) aren't VIP benefits, but instead are appurtenant to those points regardless of where they are used, while the extra 4 HKs for being VIPG are clearly VIP benefits as are the additional 8 GCs. That's how the logic works if you follow the money and attribute the status of those things as being VIP benefits to those things the VIP program pays for and at the same time attribute non-VIP status to those things that are paid for annually by the owner through the program fees. If I were writing the rule sets, I would allow for allocation of additional HKs and RTs to the non-VIP usage to the extent that VIP-eligible points are used in mixed reservations; set up that way it wouldn't have the effect of "stripping" the HKs and RTs from those points used in mixed reservations despite the owner paying for them. Might be worth seeking clarification in that vein in the event they haven't thought of that before the program gets implemented.

 

[cbyrne1174]

Not all of those 4,000 resale owners have been using their resale points with VIP benefits. Some (probably plenty) of them are nobodies like me. Others are retail owners who may have added resale before ever reaching VIP. Others may, yes, be VIPs who added a small resale contract or few to supplement their retail ownership. Only a very small percentage of resale owners would be VIPs who own at least an equivalent number of resale points. They may have a disproportionate impact, but they exist in very small numbers.

Agreed. Most resale owners made a small developer purchase and added on resale. Very few are 100% resale or VIP/resale. Most of the people I've randomly talked to at the resorts that know about resale learned it from buying 105,000-200,000 points into Wyndham first, then added resale after.

 

[Eric B]

I'm in the same boat, I've not had to worry about HK/RT. I've got a 689k NH resale contract. I believe the math is:

HK: points/77k = HK credits (rounded down)
RT: points/70k = RT credits (rounded down)

So for my contract I'd receive:

GCs: 2
HKs: 8
RTs: 8

But consider someone with a 105K annual contract and a 210K EOYE contract. They would get:

Even year
GCs: 2
HKs: 4
RTs: 4

Odd year
GCs: 2
HKs: 1
RTs: 1

If they use their ARP for an even year stay by making a reservation in the odd year, they use up their allocated non-VIP RTs, but haven't made a reservation for their odd year points. If they were to try to book a mixed stay using the 105K non-VIP plus 255K from VIP, which isn't unreasonable, despite the fact that they've paid for 3 more RTs in the program fee for those 255K VIP points, because it's a mixed stay they wouldn't be able to use them for the transaction unless the RTs that are paid for out of the program fee are not considered VIP RTs.