[ 2021 ] Major Change to Wyndham VIP Program in Email 7/19/2021 [MERGED]

[learnalot]

I had already bought all my resale points when I was offered twice at two,different location to buy a small VIP contract and my resale points will be given VIP benefits. And as you have read those benefits were given to resale points to VIP owners in the past. Those who bought and have used those benefits in the past should be grandfathered.

In this scenario it would depend on how the sale was written and whether they incorporated your resale points into the purchase or just made verbal statements about your VIP benefits applying to them. Others have reported having resale fixed weeks incorporated into a new points purchase (not talking PIC weeks). I'm not aware of anyone making that happen with resale points vs fixed weeks but it would depend on what your sales contract says.

 

[learnalot]

In signing into my account, I notice there is now a "Switch Memberships" selection under the drop-down menu for My Account. When I click on it, it shows my VIP Gold account and each of two resale accounts. Point balances are zero since I have no points remaining this year. I guess you will have to switch among the accounts to book, although I'm not sure why they didn't just group the non-VIP accounts together. This really adds a level of complexity that is not appealing.
Also, we are already not getting VIP upgrades, as discussed in another thread. You'd think they'd maybe focus on fixing existing problems before adding potential new ones that will result in more dissatisfaction with the broken booking system.

I'm just catching up on this thread so someone else may have pointed this out already, but having the contracts listed separately should increase your ability to designate from which account you are making a particular reservation. This can matter because you might want to preserve the points from a particular contract for an ARP reservation at that resort.

 

[learnalot]

Yeah, that was a weird addition to the email. No way will I get any points. I think they will be charging me for past reservations booked at discounts and upgrades.

When I read "complimentary points" I took it as the bonus points that they would often give with developer sales that would temporarily boost people to a particular VIP level. I don't know if that's what they were talking about, but that's how I took it.

 

[tschwa2]

In this scenario your benefits might remain the same - because when you made the new purchase, they probably brought your resale points in as part of the sale. It's a strategic calculation on their part that allows them to make a new sale. It's the opposite scenario that will be a problem - people who had VIP status through developer purchases and then acquired additional resale points which, up until this change, behaved like their developer purchased points. (I believe that Presidential Reserve points have always been tracked separately - only PR points were eligible for PR benefits). We probably won't know for sure until the new system actually rolls out. Hopefully it will work out for you.

Wyndham hasn't "brought resale" in as part of the sale for 20+ years. The hjsweet probably had several hundred thousand resale points but was talked into buying retail up to silver to get the free HK on all of the points or gold to get the free HK, transactions and either for the upgrades and discounted reservations. So yes it will effect him, it's pretty much the same as the people who already had the status. But if you already had VIP, sales wouldn't be suggesting you buy resale because that doesn't benefit them at all.

 

[paxsarah]

I've personally never come across another resale only owner during hot tub talks. I really do think it's only like 5% of owners.

I think we’re disproportionately represented here, but pretty rare in the wild.

 

[learnalot]

So the second question which may or may not be related is this. Near the bottom under "Important Information" (which why does that have to be expanded? Just make all of the information immediately viewable!) is this bullet point:

• Non-VIP Eligible Points will follow the standard booking timeline and VIP Eligible Points will have an extended booking timeline for reservations and transactions, in accordance with existing VIP guidelines.

What in the world does this mean? The only extended booking available to VIPs would be RARP and Margaritaville, which are already mentioned earlier on the page. I'm hoping that this is just some kind of weird confusion written by a marketing person, and not some limitation in booking window on resale points. Should this bullet point mean something obvious/benign that I'm missing?

Another question I'm just curious about although it doesn't pertain to me - for owners who own some developer and some resale points but are not VIP, are they going to be forced to distinguish between their VIP-eligible and resale contracts when booking? I'm thinking of the short video with the drop-down on the vacation search screen. As of now, all of the differences between non-VIP retail accounts and all-resale accounts are things that have to be called in (Club Pass, Plus Partners, etc.), so their online booking process could be essentially the same as mine (as an all-resale owner). It would be a pain for them to have to make choices between different types of points every time they book.

Hi Sarah,
I agree that the reference to the standard and extended windows was confusing because you're correct that it's essentially a non-issue in terms of reservations. I think it must have had more to do with the extended timeline for miscellaneous transactions like rolling points to a future year, depositing them with RCI, converting to maintenance fees, etc.

I also get that it might seem a pain to have to choose between different types of points every time you book, however, it makes sense in terms of being able to access (or preserve) ARP for different sets of points. People who have Daytona points that they want to use for bike week reservations wouldn't want to have the points for a reservation at a location or time that's easier to get come out of their Daytona bucket, for example.

 

[paxsarah]

I also get that it might seem a pain to have to choose between different types of points every time you book, however, it makes sense in terms of being able to access (or preserve) ARP for different sets of points.

It’s already preserved and we don’t have to choose. Basically, if we haven’t used ARP at a particular location, then it’s preserved. We don’t have to choose location if ARP isn’t being used. I’ll be disappointed if this changes.

 

[ilya]

If you watch the video provided, the points buckets are for Developer and Resale - there’s no reference to VIP or non-VIP anywhere in the buckets. Based upon what I’ve seen, I think any owner who has a hybrid account - whether VIP or non-VIP - the points buckets will exist - and any associated fee structure changes will apply equally to all hybrid accounts. I don’t believe we will see differences in how VIP vs non-VIP accounts will be managed.


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What will happen to the PIC contracts? I've read on here many people became Platinum VIP with very little developer purchased points... The theory was to buy resale fixed weeks then turn them into Wyndham with a small purchase to gain VIP level... Since these are resale contracts , maybe not Wyndham properties, will these contracts also be classified as non VIP and therefore reduce the status of that owner? Seems like they would have to eliminate that loophole as well.. Another thing that was allowed and promoted ... I would think that all resale contracts should be treated the same or else it would seem like unfair treatment...

 

[paxsarah]

Seems like they would have to eliminate that loophole as well

PIC is not a loophole - it's codified, and the points are specifically designated as VIP-eligible. If they were to change that, that would be a true change to an existing program - not that they couldn't do that (as they did with housekeeping recently, VIP point levels, etc.), but it's different than closing a loophole.

From the directory: "Once you enroll your non-Wyndham week in PIC Plus, your week will be allocated a point value based on the unit size. Please refer to the PIC Plus Allocations chart below. The point value of your enrolled week(s) counts toward CLUB WYNDHAM Plus VIP eligibility."

 

[ilya]

PIC is not a loophole - it's codified, and the points are specifically designated as VIP-eligible. If they were to change that, that would be a true change to an existing program - not that they couldn't do that (as they did with housekeeping recently, VIP point levels, etc.), but it's different than closing a loophole.

From the directory: "Once you enroll your non-Wyndham week in PIC Plus, your week will be allocated a point value based on the unit size. Please refer to the PIC Plus Allocations chart below. The point value of your enrolled week(s) counts toward CLUB WYNDHAM Plus VIP eligibility."

Yes, I understand it states in the contract but as with everything Wyndham is doing seems to be to eliminate a cheap way of obtaining VIP.

 

[paxsarah]

Yes, I understand it states in the contract but as with everything Wyndham is doing seems to be to eliminate a cheap way of obtaining VIP.

As I said, they can do anything. They write the rules. I was just taking issue with the term "loophole." In this case, it's not closing a backdoor way to get something - it's a codified program.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Yes, I understand it states in the contract but as with everything Wyndham is doing seems to be to eliminate a cheap way of obtaining VIP.

When Privileges was first being formed - we were given explicit guidance from several senior Wyndham leaders that discussion was had specifically surrounding whether PIC contracts would still enjoy developer points status - the consensus at that time was nearly universal from the Sales & Marketing team that PIC should be left alone - as it is one of the key programs still in existence that results in a significant subset of revenue that outweighs the associated program costs. As long as there's a significant revenue component that is profitable - I would be surprised if Wyndham were to make a decision to forgo a program that generates good revenue and profits. That said, anything is possible as we all well know. The decision points seems to be attached to major changes to the VIP program itself - so it's anyone's guess as to when the VIP program itself will be revisited - since the current VIP program rollout was just completed in Nov 2020.

 

[Mongoose]

Yes, I understand it states in the contract but as with everything Wyndham is doing seems to be to eliminate a cheap way of obtaining VIP.

That's not surprising. Resale owners only pay MF's. That keeps the units operating, maintained and renovated. All the profit for them is in the developer sales. Not much reason for them to reward resale. That being said, how do Wyndham resale limitations compare to other brands?

 

[paxsarah]

That's not surprising. Resale owners only pay MF's. That keeps the units operating, maintained and renovated. All the profit for them is in the developer sales. Not much reason for them to reward resale. That being said, how do Wyndham resale limitations compare to other brands?

Just to clarify, the PIC program does not involve Wyndham resale points in any way. It involves an external weeks-based timeshare (which Wyndham doesn't care how you obtained - why would they?) and a purchase of retail Wyndham points. Every PIC contract involves a retail sale by Wyndham.

 

[Mongoose]

Just to clarify, the PIC program does not involve Wyndham resale points in any way. It involves an external weeks-based timeshare (which Wyndham doesn't care how you obtained - why would they?) and a purchase of retail Wyndham points. Every PIC contract involves a retail sale by Wyndham.

I didn't know that. Thanks. Great feature. HICV was something similar called Global Choice. Just not sure all this talk of VIP status is worth the retail cost.

 

[Eric B]

That's not surprising. Resale owners only pay MF's. That keeps the units operating, maintained and renovated. All the profit for them is in the developer sales. Not much reason for them to reward resale. That being said, how do Wyndham resale limitations compare to other brands?

Actually, owners of resale Wyndham contracts pay the program fees in addition to the maintenance fees. The maintenance fees go to the HOAs to operate, maintain and renovate the specific resorts that are owned either directly or in trust, while the program fees go to Wyndham to operate the system for reservations/exchanges between the resorts.

.....
PIC contracts [are] one of the key programs still in existence that results in a significant subset of revenue that outweighs the associated program costs.
.....

That's not entirely surprising as one of the main benefits of having a PIC contract is to qualify for VIP levels whether or not you actually use the points in Club Wyndham. Someone with two 3+ BR PICs winds up paying $335 in program fees per year for the additional VIP eligibility, but might not decide to convert their other weeks to points, instead using them for stays or RCI exchanges, another revenue for Wyndham. It would be interesting to see how PIC contracts compare with actual PIC conversions to Wyndham points; most years I find other things to do with the weeks I have PIC contracts for.

 

[HitchHiker71]

That's not entirely surprising as one of the main benefits of having a PIC contract is to qualify for VIP levels whether or not you actually use the points in Club Wyndham. Someone with two 3+ BR PICs winds up paying $335 in program fees per year for the additional VIP eligibility, but might not decide to convert their other weeks to points, instead using them for stays or RCI exchanges, another revenue for Wyndham. It would be interesting to see how PIC contracts compare with actual PIC conversions to Wyndham points; most years I find other things to do with the weeks I have PIC contracts for.

Yup - this is especially the case for PIC Express contracts - which only apply to account status - yet AFAIK still pay program fees. I'm not sure of the breakdown of Express vs Plus contracts and how many total points are in each bucket - that would be an interesting data point to know. Let's not forget the $89/contract points conversion fee for PIC Plus contracts as well. I personally convert my two PIC Plus contracts almost every year currently - though in future years we may consider actually using our fall OBX week every now and again. We really like second season down in OBX. I'm actually looking for a second prime season week at the same resort at present.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Updating the list of follow up questions to send off to our Wyndham contacts, please post any additional questions in reply:

• If you need to combine both VIP eligible and non eligible points for a large reservation and thus book using non-VIP eligible and borrow some of your VIP-eligible points, will the points used from both buckets combine for ARP purposes (e.g. if you own both retail and resale CWA contracts)?
• Will Wyndham require a separate Points Deposit Fee for VIP and non-VIP points in different buckets?
• If you are short points on a VIP reservation could you choose to borrow points from the next Use Year even when you have resale points available in same use year?
• Are Wyndham Owner Care reps being trained in advance on how to answer inquiries related to these somewhat complex changes?
• Will more detailed information be provided on the rulesets used for the current use year audits?
• Will Wyndham publish recommended best practices for how to utilize the different points buckets for the impacted VIP owners?
• Will Wyndham be making any changes to how resale contracts function for reservations? For example, will resale contracts still support ARP reservations for the home resort(s)?
• Statement: “Non-VIP Eligible Points will follow the standard booking timeline and VIP Eligible Points will have an extended booking timeline for reservations and transactions, in accordance with existing VIP guidelines.” What extended timeline do VIP eligible points have (other than RARP or Margaritaville, which are mentioned elsewhere)?
• How will this change impact reservations made already in future use years?
• For hybrid VIP owners that hold both retail and resale contracts. Will we receive separate dedicated GCs, HKs, and RTs for our resale contract points? For example, as a VIPG owner, I receive 10 complimentary GCs today. Will I receive the traditional two GCs and associated amount of HKs and RTs for my resale bucket points, in addition to the complimentary VIPG GCs I already am entitled to? Will the HKs and RTs round up or down if the points don't exactly match the 77k and 70k thresholds?
• When borrowing points from future use years for reservations, will you be able to choose from developer/resale points buckets? Or will the system automatically make that determination somehow?
• If an owner does not agree with any of the audit changes, will Wyndham work with them or are the allocation decisions final?
• Will Wyndham offer free transactions for any reservations that need to be canceled/rebooked/changed based on the new system?
• Will there be any additional HK credits and/or RTs allotted to owners to ensure account wholeness through the rest of the current use year?
• When does Wyndham recommend owners reach out for help? Before or after the go-live date?
• When will the member directory be updated to reflect these changes?
• What, if any effect, does this change have for things like using outrigger banked points in future years to book longer stays at outrigger locations? So e.g. if you bank all outrigger account points from 2021 to 2022 can you book ALL those points at outrigger in 2022?
• Do the points buckets remain segregated when banking into future use years?

Here's the three items we already sent and have answers on:

• Q: What does the "Rental Points" bucket in the graphics and videos refer to?
• A: Points Rental is referencing the number of points available to rent. Owners may rent up to the total amount of points owned when booking a reservation within the Express Booking window.
• Q: What is meant by the "complimentary points" reference?
• A: Complimentary Points – Additional one-time use points added into the next Use Year.
• Q: Will Wyndham allow VIP owners to utilize the Certified Exit program to feedback resale contracts that no longer can be used with VIP benefits?
• A: Wyndham Certified Exit- Yes, our team is committed to working with the owners on the best possible solutions based on their situation.

 

[rickandcindy23]

When it was Fairfield, new buyers could PIC many weeks, as many as they wanted. As far as I know, PIC is only two weeks per developer purchase. So even if you get 254,000 points X 2 for 3 bedroom red season units, you still would need a big purchase for a Platinum account. We converted weeks to get our platinum account. It was cheap, and I was grateful, and that is the only thing we will be keeping. I can use that platinum account.

My question is what kind of bill will I get after this audit.

 

[55plus]

What audit? If you booked a reservation at half points, you had no way of not booking at half points.

 

[55plus]

In other words, the website forced you to use your points as a VIP reservation. You had no choice.

 

[Sandy VDH]

I didn't know that. Thanks. Great feature. HICV was something similar called Global Choice. Just not sure all this talk of VIP status is worth the retail cost.

Big difference between Global Choice and PIC is that global choice is $75 IF you decide to use it. PIC requires a Developer purchases, had a Program fee to pay, and that may be even if you choose not to use it that year.

So Global Choice is great option for HICV.

 

[jebloomquist]

To make that worth it to Wyndham I think it would have to be a 1 for 1. You want to bring in a million resale points, you have to buy a million retail points. Otherwise "legitimizing" millions of points with a $20,000-40,000 purchase might give them a boost now but wouldn't accomplish what they want it to do.

To offer something such as suggested here, Wyndham will have to do a serious cost/benefit analysis.

With a 1 to 1 conversion, Wyndham would be charging about $100,000 for a 1 million point purchase to convert the 1 million resale points. That would certainly be too steep for me.

Secondly, why would someone do this if the resulting 2 million points cannot be rented?

I think that it is a really hard sales job to get owners to convert resale points.

I think an alternative is what we will see. The resale market will soon be flooded with owners dumping points contracts. Many of the new owners, who will get these points dirt cheap, may not be as diligent at paying the maintenance fees as the previous owners, say mega renters who needed to keep current with maintenance payments.

I think that Wyndham still has more shoes to drop, however with yet to be realized unintended consequences.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Deleted - just need to make a couple more changes and validations prior to republishing the answers received to date.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Big difference between Global Choice and PIC is that global choice is $75 IF you decide to use it. PIC requires a Developer purchases, had a Program fee to pay, and that may be even if you choose not to use it that year.

So Global Choice is great option for HICV.

The program fee is charged based upon the contracts in your account and the points values tied to each contract. Since all PIC contracts contain points values (whether converted for use or simply used for account status), the program fee applies AFAIK. I know it does for my two PIC Plus contracts - regardless of whether I convert the points or not.