[ 2021 ] Major Change to Wyndham VIP Program in Email 7/19/2021 [MERGED]

[Sandy VDH]

The program fee is charged based upon the contracts in your account and the points values tied to each contract. Since all PIC contracts contain points values (whether converted for use or simply used for account status), the program fee applies AFAIK. I know it does for my two PIC Plus contracts - regardless of whether I convert the points or not.

Yes I was aware, I was just saying that Wyndham you have to buy developer to PIC, and pay the Program fee every year, even if you don't convert the PIC points to Wyndham points every year. However on the HICV Global Choice you pay $75 for any week you want to convert to HICV points. NO developer purchase. and you only pay when you convert. So HICV has a simpler and cheaper implementation of a similar concept.

 

[HitchHiker71]

To offer something such as suggested here, Wyndham will have to do a serious cost/benefit analysis.

With a 1 to 1 conversion, Wyndham would be charging about $100,000 for a 1 million point purchase to convert the 1 million resale points. That would certainly be too steep for me.

Secondly, why would someone do this if the resulting 2 million points cannot be rented?

I think that it is a really hard sales job to get owners to convert resale points.

I think an alternative is what we will see. The resale market will soon be flooded with owners dumping points contracts. Many of the new owners, who will get these points dirt cheap, may not be as diligent at paying the maintenance fees as the previous owners, say mega renters who needed to keep current with maintenance payments.

I think that Wyndham still has more shoes to drop, however with yet to be realized unintended consequences.

People who hold million dollar contracts are rare - million plus point contracts in and of themselves are rare. Let's use a real world example of an average VIP Silver owner who may hold resale contracts in the 105k-300k range at most. Let's assume a sliding scale for the x:x requirement. For a small contract like 105k resale - a 1:1 makes perfect sense. A VIPS owner at 500k points - converting a 105k resale - would get 210k points closer to VIPG - and could up the retail points to 195k to move up to VIPG with a 105k resale conversion. Would that be worth 25-30k to an owner? Not here on TUG - but TUG is the exception - not the rule. A VIPG owner like me - I could convert my 689k resale contract with a 344k retail contract purchase. That would put me up to Founders level. Would that be worth 40-50k? It might be to some - which is the entire point. Make the offer - I think Wyndham could generate quite a few resale to retail conversions between now and year end with a limited time program along this line for many VIPB, VIPS and VIPG or even VIPP owners looking to level up that currently hold resale.

 

[Jimag]

Deleted - just need to make a couple more changes and validations prior to republishing the answers received to date.

I've been following this thread on and off for several days. I think something has been missed. I have checked the last two editions of the Owners' Handbook/Directory regarding VIP eligibility. The language is inartfully drafted, but both iterations state that a member may achieve VIP STATUS only by: (1) purchasing Club Wyndham Plus points directly through Wyndham Vacation Resorts or its affiliates; (2) inheriting ownership interests (the language does not specify the inheritance must be from an immediate relative or that the inherited points must have been purchased directly from Wyndham); (3) acquiring ownership interests that were previously acquired by an immediate relative (the language does not specify such points must have been acquired by the relative through direct Wyndham purchase); and (4) making use of the PIC program (resale ownerships are not precluded from the PIC program because the ownership interests enrolled in the PIC program are non-Wyndham ownerships).

The important take away is that Wyndham has established a program whereby Club Wyndham Plus Members may receive certain additional benefits by achieving VIP STATUS. Once such status is achieved the terms established by Wyndham do not distinguish between points owned by a VIP member. Wyndham is changing the rules of the game by inventing the term "non-VIP eligible points." Previously the eligibility criteria only counted in conferring status not program benefits once status is achieved. This is not a loophole or a scam. All points entail the same maintenance fees. Wyndham wrote the original VIP program terms. For whatever reason, Wyndham did not restrict VIP program benefits to directly purchased points. Doing so now is tantamount to acting in bad faith.

The VIP program changes announced by Wyndham are significant not only for those members who have VIP status and own points that do not count toward such status, but also for all Club Wyndham Plus members.

Let me explain. What we purchased directly from Wyndham was conveyed without any limitation on our conveying it to a third party. I know that Wyndham ownership interests have a pitiful resale value in the current market. However, the possibility that a contract can be resold for something greater than what Wyndham offers through Ovation or otherwise adds more than de minimis value to the contract. A member with VIP status, who is not concerned with achieving higher VIP status, presently may very well place a higher value on a resale contract than such member will under the new VIP program terms. Everyone should understand that it is not just VIP members with resale points that are losing something under the new VIP program terms.

 

[CO skier]

I think an alternative is what we will see. The resale market will soon be flooded with owners dumping points contracts. Many of the new owners, who will get these points dirt cheap, may not be as diligent at paying the maintenance fees as the previous owners, say mega renters who needed to keep current with maintenance payments.

This same fear (a "flood" of resale contracts) was suggested when auto-upgrades were introduced that did away with predictable cancel/rebook for 50% discounts (or more) of premium 13-month reservations. The "flood" never arrived -- at least not on Ebay or the TUG Marketplace.

At my home resort (and probably many other Wyndham resorts) it does not matter, because now like then, Wyndham pays up to $2,000 toward any foreclosures and pays the delinquent maintenance fees for any owners "not as diligent at paying the maintenance fees as the previous owners."

One of the HOAs at my home resort recently reported that the Wyndham program has reduced bad debt to 4%. There are many independent timeshares that would be envious of this low amount of bad debt.

 

[CO skier]

People who hold million dollar contracts are rare - million plus point contracts in and of themselves are rare. Let's use a real world example of an average VIP Silver owner who may hold resale contracts in the 105k-300k range at most. Let's assume a sliding scale for the x:x requirement. For a small contract like 105k resale - a 1:1 makes perfect sense. A VIPS owner at 500k points - converting a 105k resale - would get 210k points closer to VIPG - and could up the retail points to 195k to move up to VIPG with a 105k resale conversion. Would that be worth 25-30k to an owner? Not here on TUG - but TUG is the exception - not the rule. A VIPG owner like me - I could convert my 689k resale contract with a 344k retail contract purchase. That would put me up to Founders level. Would that be worth 40-50k? It might be to some - which is the entire point. Make the offer - I think Wyndham could generate quite a few resale to retail conversions between now and year end with a limited time program along this line for many VIPB, VIPS and VIPG or even VIPP owners looking to level up that currently hold resale.

Would a program like that be fair to pure VIPs who do not have any resale contracts, and could not complete any resale additions before the end of the year with a resale purchase now?

 

[Eric B]

I've been following this thread on and off for several days. I think something has been missed. I have checked the last two editions of the Owners' Handbook/Directory regarding VIP eligibility. The language is inartfully drafted, but both iterations state that a member may achieve VIP STATUS only by: (1) purchasing Club Wyndham Plus points directly through Wyndham Vacation Resorts or its affiliates; (2) inheriting ownership interests (the language does not specify the inheritance must be from an immediate relative or that the inherited points must have been purchased directly from Wyndham); (3) acquiring ownership interests that were previously acquired by an immediate relative (the language does not specify such points must have been acquired by the relative through direct Wyndham purchase); and (4) making use of the PIC program (resale ownerships are not precluded from the PIC program because the ownership interests enrolled in the PIC program are non-Wyndham ownerships).

The important take away is that Wyndham has established a program whereby Club Wyndham Plus Members may receive certain additional benefits by achieving VIP STATUS. Once such status is achieved the terms established by Wyndham do not distinguish between points owned by a VIP member. Wyndham is changing the rules of the game by inventing the term "non-VIP eligible points." Previously the eligibility criteria only counted in conferring status not program benefits once status is achieved. This is not a loophole or a scam. All points entail the same maintenance fees. Wyndham wrote the original VIP program terms. For whatever reason, Wyndham did not restrict VIP program benefits to directly purchased points. Doing so now is tantamount to acting in bad faith.

The VIP program changes announced by Wyndham are significant not only for those members who have VIP status and own points that do not count toward such status, but also for all Club Wyndham Plus members.

Let me explain. What we purchased directly from Wyndham was conveyed without any limitation on our conveying it to a third party. I know that Wyndham ownership interests have a pitiful resale value in the current market. However, the possibility that a contract can be resold for something greater than what Wyndham offers through Ovation or otherwise adds more than de minimis value to the contract. A member with VIP status, who is not concerned with achieving higher VIP status, presently may very well place a higher value on a resale contract than such member will under the new VIP program terms. Everyone should understand that it is not just VIP members with resale points that are losing something under the new VIP program terms.

Don’t forget that Wyndham reserves the right to change the VIP program at their sole discretion. I agree with you that the last iterations of the program were quite inartfully drafted and plainly read as developer purchases, etc., are only necessary to achieve VIP status. I looked at the 2014 version and it was pretty explicit that resale points were also ineligible for use with VIP benefits. Neither really matters except to the extent that we characterize this as a change or starting to enforce a formerly explicit program rule. Starting in August, the rule will be that resale points are separate. IMHO, Wyndham has done a horrible job of managing the messaging here, glossing over the fact that the 2018-19 directory or earlier changed the program to make resale points eligible and not admitting that they are changing the rules back to what they were. They also have what appears to be serious execution problems with establishing and running their systems that resulted in actual performance not matching their rules likely for decades.

I’m not sure it would be reasonable to expect much better from an organization that gets such a high proportion of its income from sales as opposed to from actually managing what it sells access to. In the end, though, I don’t think it will really effect my usage given what I own and how I’ve been using it. It does complicate what I have to track in parallel with their systems because of past indications that they can’t really be trusted.

 

[paxsarah]

Wyndham is changing the rules of the game

Exactly. And it’s within their purview to do so.

No matter how someone interprets the fact that the policy Wyndham is now moving to enforce was spelled out in the 2014-15 directory, then was removed (but not explicitly reversed) from the 2018-19 directory, in the end it doesn’t matter. Wyndham makes the rules. Wyndham can change the rules. I understand being frustrated, mad, disappointed, but it doesn’t change the fact that they can do what they did. Whether they’re only now enforcing a policy that always existed but wasn’t (able to be) enforced, or whether they’re reversing a previously held policy, they can do either or both.

 

[raygo123]

Exactly. And it’s within their purview to do so.

No matter how someone interprets the fact that the policy Wyndham is now moving to enforce was spelled out in the 2014-15 directory, then was removed (but not explicitly reversed) from the 2018-19 directory, in the end it doesn’t matter. Wyndham makes the rules. Wyndham can change the rules. I understand being frustrated, mad, disappointed, but it doesn’t change the fact that they can do what they did. Whether they’re only now enforcing a policy that always existed but wasn’t (able to be) enforced, or whether they’re reversing a previously held policy, they can do either or both.

It is real easy. If it is either the thirteen to ten month window, or sixty day window. If you read your original contract with Wyndham. Wyndham cannot do anything for an VIP owners during the ten month window, other than trinkets like presidential reserve.

Wyndham during the sixty day window Wyndham has access to all unused points. The one that really hurt Wyndham was cancel and rebook. The whole VIP program is based on breakage. Unused points and points Wyndham owns. Every point Wyndham can keep is money in their pocket.

These latest changes are all oriented to the individual owner. Over memorial day weekend 98% of the resort was rental. Most of us know the answers, ARP is not a VIP benefit and any of the resorts can be booked with points from the trust. RARP is so no you can't use resale anymore. You can deposit forward.

It may be in the best interest of a resale owner to not sell but to pull your deeds out of club Wyndham. There is a member that owns quite a few Sea Gardens deeds. The deeds have no affiliation with "Club Wyndham". No club fees etc.

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[Jimag]

Exactly. And it’s within their purview to do so.

No matter how someone interprets the fact that the policy Wyndham is now moving to enforce was spelled out in the 2014-15 directory, then was removed (but not explicitly reversed) from the 2018-19 directory, in the end it doesn’t matter. Wyndham makes the rules. Wyndham can change the rules. I understand being frustrated, mad, disappointed, but it doesn’t change the fact that they can do what they did. Whether they’re only now enforcing a policy that always existed but wasn’t (able to be) enforced, or whether they’re reversing a previously held policy, they can do either or both.

Please note that nothing I wrote claims that Wyndham cannot change the rules. Wyndham established the VIP program and Wyndham can disestablish the VIP program. I'm not suggesting that Wyndham would abolish the program, only that it could. It clearly serves a business purpose.

The question is whether members who have played by the rules of the game as established by Wyndham and who will experience a loss because of a change in the rules should be made whole in some manner. In this regard, please remember that my original comment illustrated how it is not just VIP members who have ownership interests not acquired through Wyndham who will lose something of value. All ownership interests will lose some incremental value in the resale market by this change in the rules.

It's a matter of fairness and equity that some may think is actionable.

 

[55plus]

It may be in the best interest of a resale owner to not sell but to pull your deeds out of club Wyndham. There is a member that owns quite a few Sea Gardens deeds. The deeds have no affiliation with "Club Wyndham". No club fees etc.
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How does one pull their deeds out of Club Wyndham? How does one reserve a timeframe (reservation) without access to the reservation? I can see problems....

 

[dgalati]

It is real easy. If it is either the thirteen to ten month window, or sixty day window. If you read your original contract with Wyndham. Wyndham cannot do anything for an VIP owners during the ten month window, other than trinkets like presidential reserve.

Wyndham during the sixty day window Wyndham has access to all unused points. The one that really hurt Wyndham was cancel and rebook. The whole VIP program is based on breakage. Unused points and points Wyndham owns. Every point Wyndham can keep is money in their pocket.

These latest changes are all oriented to the individual owner. Over memorial day weekend 98% of the resort was rental. Most of us know the answers, ARP is not a VIP benefit and any of the resorts can be booked with points from the trust. RARP is so no you can't use resale anymore. You can deposit forward.

It may be in the best interest of a resale owner to not sell but to pull your deeds out of club Wyndham. There is a member that owns quite a few Sea Gardens deeds. The deeds have no affiliation with "Club Wyndham". No club fees etc.

Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk

Tell me more about pulling deeds out of the Club Wyndham and how this works.

 

[Ty1on]

Tell me more about pulling deeds out of the Club Wyndham and how this works.

If you have a fixed week conversion in Club Wyndham, you can simply unconvert it, revert it back to its original Fixed (or float) week.

 

[bnoble]

Please note that nothing I wrote claims that Wyndham cannot change the rules. Wyndham established the VIP program and Wyndham can disestablish the VIP program.
[...]
The question is whether members who have played by the rules of the game as established by Wyndham and who will experience a loss because of a change in the rules should be made whole in some manner.

I am having trouble following you. If Wyndham is allowed to change the rules, why would they owe something to owners when they change them? If seems that the first two sentences I quoted provide a direct answer to the third one: "No."

 

[dgalati]

If you have a fixed week conversion in Club Wyndham, you can simply unconvert it, revert it back to its original Fixed (or float) week.

Limits the use.

 

[rickandcindy23]

Limits the use.

I might do that with my Bali Hai weeks.

 

[Ty1on]

I might do that with my Bali Hai weeks.

Dang it. I was going to help you offload those.

 

[Jimag]

I am having trouble following you. If Wyndham is allowed to change the rules, why would they owe something to owners when they change them? If seems that the first two sentences I quoted provide a direct answer to the third one: "No."

It's not a matter of owe in a narrow sense. It's a matter of running the program (maintaining a relationship) in good faith.

When Wyndham recently changed the rules regarding VIP levels existing VIP members were grandfathered under the new rules. Apply the reasoning that Wyndham has absolute authority to change VIP program terms by fiat at any time means they did not need to grandfather existing VIP members under the new rules. Think about this and what it means if Wyndham were to add additional VIP levels and juggle VIP benefits sometime in the future and decided not to grandfather existing VIP members to preserve their status and benefits.

What is the real value in purchasing ownership interests that confer VIP status, if it is a purchase that can be reneged at any time?

Once again, I say it is a matter of fairness and equity.

 

[Eric B]

Please note that nothing I wrote claims that Wyndham cannot change the rules. Wyndham established the VIP program and Wyndham can disestablish the VIP program. I'm not suggesting that Wyndham would abolish the program, only that it could. It clearly serves a business purpose.

The question is whether members who have played by the rules of the game as established by Wyndham and who will experience a loss because of a change in the rules should be made whole in some manner. In this regard, please remember that my original comment illustrated how it is not just VIP members who have ownership interests not acquired through Wyndham who will lose something of value. All ownership interests will lose some incremental value in the resale market by this change in the rules.

It's a matter of fairness and equity that some may think is actionable.

It's not a matter of owe in a narrow sense. It's a matter of running the program (maintaining a relationship) in good faith.

When Wyndham recently changed the rules regarding VIP levels existing VIP members were grandfathered under the new rules. Apply the reasoning that Wyndham has absolute authority to change VIP program terms by fiat at any time means they did not need to grandfather existing VIP members under the new rules. Think about this and what it means if Wyndham were to add additional VIP levels and juggle VIP benefits sometime in the future and decided not to grandfather existing VIP members to preserve their status and benefits.

What is the real value in purchasing ownership interests that confer VIP status, if it is a purchase that can be reneged at any time?

Once again, I say it is a matter of fairness and equity.

I believe that the complimentary points in the next use year that Wyndham promised is their way of addressing the fairness and equity issues. We don’t have to like it, but it’s their sandbox. One positive though - this gives you a fabulous thing to say at your next update about why you won’t buy any more from them.

 

[raygo123]

Limits the use.

Not if you have rented it every year anyway.

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[Eric B]

Limits the use.

… commensurate with the costs….

 

[Jimag]

I believe that the complimentary points in the next use year that Wyndham promised is their way of addressing the fairness and equity issues. We don’t have to like it, but it’s their sandbox. One positive though - this gives you a fabulous thing to say at your next update about why you won’t buy any more from them.

There are many reasons but this is one of the best. Maybe my next update will be the last to which I'm invited.

 

[Ty1on]

I've been following this thread on and off for several days. I think something has been missed. I have checked the last two editions of the Owners' Handbook/Directory regarding VIP eligibility. The language is inartfully drafted, but both iterations state that a member may achieve VIP STATUS only by: (1) purchasing Club Wyndham Plus points directly through Wyndham Vacation Resorts or its affiliates; (2) inheriting ownership interests (the language does not specify the inheritance must be from an immediate relative or that the inherited points must have been purchased directly from Wyndham); (3) acquiring ownership interests that were previously acquired by an immediate relative (the language does not specify such points must have been acquired by the relative through direct Wyndham purchase); and (4) making use of the PIC program (resale ownerships are not precluded from the PIC program because the ownership interests enrolled in the PIC program are non-Wyndham ownerships).

The important take away is that Wyndham has established a program whereby Club Wyndham Plus Members may receive certain additional benefits by achieving VIP STATUS. Once such status is achieved the terms established by Wyndham do not distinguish between points owned by a VIP member. Wyndham is changing the rules of the game by inventing the term "non-VIP eligible points." Previously the eligibility criteria only counted in conferring status not program benefits once status is achieved. This is not a loophole or a scam. All points entail the same maintenance fees. Wyndham wrote the original VIP program terms. For whatever reason, Wyndham did not restrict VIP program benefits to directly purchased points. Doing so now is tantamount to acting in bad faith.

The VIP program changes announced by Wyndham are significant not only for those members who have VIP status and own points that do not count toward such status, but also for all Club Wyndham Plus members.

Let me explain. What we purchased directly from Wyndham was conveyed without any limitation on our conveying it to a third party. I know that Wyndham ownership interests have a pitiful resale value in the current market. However, the possibility that a contract can be resold for something greater than what Wyndham offers through Ovation or otherwise adds more than de minimis value to the contract. A member with VIP status, who is not concerned with achieving higher VIP status, presently may very well place a higher value on a resale contract than such member will under the new VIP program terms. Everyone should understand that it is not just VIP members with resale points that are losing something under the new VIP program terms.

The error in your logic, imho, is that you assume that because Wyndham wasn't distinguishing between VIP and non VIP when applying VIP benefits, you have the contractual right to those benefits being applied to non VIP, and I don't think that is, or should be, the case.

Also, I think you are stretching to get to the change affecting VIPs with no resale and non-VIPs if you have to go to resale value to get there. Contracts have been devalued on resale for a very long time, and slightly more devaluation because of reduced demand among the handful of VIPs that would have been pursuing resales to apply VIP benefits to them hardly moves the needle.

 

[Jimag]

The error in your logic, imho, is that you assume that because Wyndham wasn't distinguishing between VIP and non VIP when applying VIP benefits, you have the contractual right to those benefits being applied to non VIP, and I don't think that is, or should be, the case.

Also, I think you are stretching to get to the change affecting VIPs with no resale and non-VIPs if you have to go to resale value to get there. Contracts have been devalued on resale for a very long time, and slightly more devaluation because of reduced demand among the handful of VIPs that would have been pursuing resales to apply VIP benefits to them hardly moves the needle.

I understand your views, but please recognize that I did not assert a contractual right. Take a look at my subsequent posts. I think I clarified my position. As for the impact on all members not just VIPs with resale points, all I said was that the negative impact on value of a contract would not be de minimis.

 

[Ty1on]

I understand your views, but please recognize that I did not assert a contractual right. Take a look at my subsequent posts. I think I clarified my position. As for the impact on all members not just VIPs with resale points, all I said was that the negative impact on value of a contract would not be de minimis.

The negative value exerted on a contract would be de minimis, in my opinion, because the value of most contracts is near zero to begin with.

 

[Jimag]

The negative value exerted on a contract would be de minimis, in my opinion, because the value of most contracts is near zero to begin with.

Ok, that's just not my opinion.