[2016] Account review email [Accts. suspended]

[Roger830]

As I said earlier, it was tried it works and Wyndham has even incorporates it into their presentations. It is new, in that it is made under the discount window, just not the first time. By the way nice picture. Apparently when you bought, you did not do enough homework, or enough presentations to understand the full program, or you would have had knowledge of all this. If you did buy direct, the good news is it's not too late for you to enjoy the same benifits.

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Believe me when I tell you I knew what benefits were available to retail and resale buyers before I bought. I lurked here for years before I became a member, plus I've been a timeshare owner since 2000.

I have met disgruntled members at resorts. A vip that I met week 3 was upset because he wasn't able to book week 4, which I knew was available at 7AM 10 months prior but I didn't tell him.

It's bad for the system if the owners that paid $30,000 for a week are excluded from booking a prime week because others have more than their fair share.

So far I've been pleased with my reservations. I have a fixed week 7 in Pompano and enough low cost points for about another 2 weeks. I had a January week in Florida and 4 days in San Diego. I have 1 day next week in NY, then a day the following week in Newport.

 

[Bigrob]

Show the page in the manual where the benefit cancel and rebook is stated.

I have the 2013-1014 manual.
Page 332 states Price discounts within 60 days of checkin
Receive discounts on NEW reservations only

I see nothing about canceling a reservation made 8 months prior and rebooking.

If the canceled reservation comes back the next day or some random day at 7AM, you would still have a better than average shot of rebooking it because you know where to look. That's fair and in the rules.

I believe it used to work like this in the past. Wyndham has experimented with differing times for the cancellations to come back. And as you may know, some of them never come back for various reasons. Since the VCs see these reservations come back immediately, and they do work with owners to get reservations and upgrades, that has been the backup plan when it becomes riskier to cancel/rebook.

The problem here is, mega renters know those risks and therefore book MORE units as a result (at least until the Nightly Unit Limit was put into effect). My concern is that if it is made into a riskier proposition, the result will be even more prime inventory tied up to "manage the risk".

So I don't think this is the answer. However, my guess is that Wyndham is working on other things to address the cancel/rebook "trick". It could even be something that would be viewed as a benefit to many owners, such as implementing a waitlist like Worldmark has, or automating upgrades so you don't have to keep looking for them. Either of these would address and essentially eliminate cancel/rebook (the exception is that huge points managers with hundreds of accounts will still find ways to "work" the system by immediately adding dozens of requests into the waitlist from multiple accounts). The other thing is it would at least reduce, if not eliminate, the "excess" bookings for "risk mitigation" of the cancel/rebook process.

This would negatively impact a small segment of owners that Wyndham likes - VIP owners that use cancel/rebook for personal use only - while negatively impacting the target group of VIP owners that they don't like that participate in rental activity. But most VIP owners don't use cancel/rebook and would simply notice that there is more inventory to book, and if what they want isn't immediately available they can put themselves on the waitlist and have a fair chance to get their wanted reservation, and they don't have to keep looking for an upgrade. Given these factors, if I were a betting man, that is what I would put money on that Wyndham is working on, since it addresses the "megarenter" problem and improves the ownership experience for "Joe Average" VIP owner simultaneously.

 

[Braindead]

The big problem is the combination cancel rebook upgrade. That's what causes units not to be available to the rest of us. Units are held to be cacelled to upgrade. That's where everythings not equal VIPs cancel wait for it to comeback in a couple of minutes. It's a stroke of luck if someone else grabs it before the VIP that cancelled it grabs it back.

 

[Sandi Bo]

The big problem is the combination cancel rebook upgrade. That's what causes units not to be available to the rest of us. Units are held to be cacelled to upgrade. That's where everythings not equal VIPs cancel wait for it to comeback in a couple of minutes. It's a stroke of luck if someone else grabs it before the VIP that cancelled it grabs it back.

Actually, it may be what makes the units available to us. Careful what you wish for!!!

People need to learn the system. Time put in pays off. Do your homework! I have spent hours and hours, made mistakes along the way, and figured out how to use our ownership and make a little money on the way. That using a 1.5M VIP account. I could be the Wyndham sales poster child.

The megarenters provide last minute reservations. If it weren't for them, how would we ever get reservations after the 10 month mark? It's really anyone cancelling, but surely megarenters more than others. If I want a reservation, I watch that particular resort. I watch the patterns for how the reservations come back in, do they come back in? I do my homework.

For example, when my son in law's family wanted to go to New Orleans for the Final Four a few years back. I had never booked a room in New Orleans. So I started watching how reservations were coming back into inventory. Based on patterns I was seeing, told them I thought I could do it (also suggesting they book a cancellable backup). They stayed in a presidential unit. I've gotten my brother bike week at Daytona Beach (more than once). As a rule (there are exceptions), anything is possible if you are willing to put the time/effort into.

Those rooms aren't there the first time I look, or the second time... It does take some work.

Those reservations are available to anyone. You do have to work for it.

Friends and family laugh, they know me. When my alarm goes off, there's something I need to check on Wyndham. 5:55am at the gym this morning (so I wouldn't forget to be checking something at 6am CT when the system's online). There's nothing VIP about that!

 

[ronparise]

Ron,

I've read most of your post over the years and know that you are reasonable and fair in your approach to using the system. You are making the best use of what Wyndham has been available and promoted by the sales staff.

I am under no delusion that everyone can get what they what from the system. As you and others have stated in the past, the basic timeshare model is flawed, whether points or fixed weeks. Perhaps it's works well in a state like Hawaii that has a 12 month season, most resorts have much shorter seasons, but 52 weeks of owners.

If Wyndham wanted to correct the perceived injustice of the cancel-rebook tactic, all that they would have to do is have canceled reservations come back the next morning. If everyone has the same change of booking a prime reservation at 10 months, surely nobody could disagree that is equally fair to give everybody a shot at booking canceled reservations at 7AM.

That's an excellent proposal and I often do just that. I cancel at 11:44 pm and do my rebooking at 7 am the next day.

It doesn't matter whether I do it that way or not. There is always the chance someone will beat me to it and I'll lose it but because I know when it's coming back my chances are better than even that I'll get it

Remember (as has been said) I make more reservations at 13 months or 10 months than I expect to end up with. I fully expect to lose some. No matter; there are other reservations for other events that I can make with the cancelled points

And if it turns out that Wyndham institutes a waiting list I'll just not cancel unless I know I'm at the top of the list. I'll make less on each reservation I make so to make up for it I'll buy more points and make more reservations. And I guess according to you , because I get more than my fair share I'll be screwing the little guy


Be careful what you ask for. Because you might get it and if you do my guess is that the megarenters will get bigger. And concentrate their activity at the highest of the high demand events The regular guy will never get a weekend at glacier canyon or Christmas at bonnet creek or Mardi Gras

FYI there are only about 300 Wyndham and Worldmark units in New Orleans I get about 50 a year now for Mardi Gras . Anticipating anti renter changes by both clubs to attack my profits ,(I anticipate an end to cancel and rebook with wyndham) I'm making adjustments to what I do, to double that number by 2020. ( and none of this has anything to do with the recent suspensions) By the way Worldmark has no discount program but we hear the same kinds of complaints about large scale renting there as in club Wyndham

 

[Braindead]

Actually, it may be what makes the units available to us. Careful what you wish for!!!

People need to learn the system. Time put in pays off. Do your homework! I have spent hours and hours, made mistakes along the way, and figured out how to use our ownership and make a little money on the way. That using a 1.5M VIP account. I could be the Wyndham sales poster child.

The megarenters provide last minute reservations. If it weren't for them, how would we ever get reservations after the 10 month mark? It's really anyone cancelling, but surely megarenters more than others. If I want a reservation, I watch that particular resort. I watch the patterns for how the reservations come back in, do they come back in? I do my homework.

For example, when my son in law's family wanted to go to New Orleans for the Final Four a few years back. I had never booked a room in New Orleans. So I started watching how reservations were coming back into inventory. Based on patterns I was seeing, told them I thought I could do it (also suggesting they book a cancellable backup). They stayed in a presidential unit. I've gotten my brother bike week at Daytona Beach (more than once). As a rule (there are exceptions), anything is possible if you are willing to put the time/effort into.

Those rooms aren't there the first time I look, or the second time... It does take some work.

Those reservations are available to anyone. You do have to work for it.

Friends and family laugh, they know me. When my alarm goes off, there's something I need to check on Wyndham. 5:55am at the gym this morning (so I wouldn't forget to be checking something at 6am CT when the system's online). There's nothing VIP about that!

You are tieing up a high point unit keeping it from the rest of us. Hoping to get it for a 1/4 or less of the origanal point value.

 

[Braindead]

And if Wyndham grabs it none of us get it

 

[outofthewoodwork]

Ron,

I've read most of your post over the years and know that you are reasonable and fair in your approach to using the system. You are making the best use of what Wyndham has been available and promoted by the sales staff.

I am under no delusion that everyone can get what they what from the system. As you and others have stated in the past, the basic timeshare model is flawed, whether points or fixed weeks. Perhaps it's works well in a state like Hawaii that has a 12 month season, most resorts have much shorter seasons, but 52 weeks of owners.

If Wyndham wanted to correct the perceived injustice of the cancel-rebook tactic, all that they would have to do is have canceled reservations come back the next morning. If everyone has the same change of booking a prime reservation at 10 months, surely nobody could disagree that is equally fair to give everybody a shot at booking canceled reservations at 7AM.

That is exactly how the system used to work years ago. Cancellations were not available until the opening of business the next day.

 

[Sandi Bo]

You are tieing up a high point unit keeping it from the rest of us. Hoping to get it for a 1/4 or less of the origanal point value.

I'm booking a last minute reservation. It was available to you, too. Thankful that someone (not me) cancelled it. I got it cheaper, why do you care? Pay for VIP Platinum if you want a VIP Platinum discount.

And if Wyndham grabs it none of us get it

And that's my fault?

 

[Braindead]

I'm booking a last minute reservation. It was available to you, too. Thankful that someone (not me) cancelled it. I got it cheaper, why do you care? Pay for VIP Platinum if you want a VIP Platinum discount.

If you know the system you can create your upgrade. You need help from someone else cancelling

 

[uscav8r]

Show the page in the manual where the benefit cancel and rebook is stated.



I have the 2013-1014 manual.

Page 332 states Price discounts within 60 days of checkin

Receive discounts on NEW reservations only



I see nothing about canceling a reservation made 8 months prior and rebooking.



If the canceled reservation comes back the next day or some random day at 7AM, you would still have a better than average shot of rebooking it because you know where to look. That's fair and in the rules.

Cancel-rebook is not explicitly stated, but it does not need to be. The policies for cancellation and for booking are explicitly stated, and there is no explicit BAN of sequential use of either reservation feature. You can tilt at this particular windmill all you want, but you won't convince many that the technique is outside of guidelines. I am not even a megarenter, and I don't see how this technique is "illegal." The room has come back into the system, and several posters have mentioned how they have NOT been able to rebook on an increasing basis in recent years. In other words, there are no guarantees the technique will work.


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[ronparise]

You are tieing up a high point unit keeping it from the rest of us. Hoping to get it for a 1/4 or less of the origanal point value.

Thats exactly right, and every other owner that makes a reservation does the same. Everyone that makes a reservation (high point value or not) is selfishly keeping that reservation from the rest of us.

That a VIP owner might be able to use their ownership to get it at a discount doesnt change that

I cant even accept your argument that the second, low value reservation ussd for the upgrade part of a cancel/rebook/cancel/upgrade strategy is being kept from the rest of the owners unfairly .Because for me the last part of the strategy is another rebook. I want that reservation too. Im certainly keeping those reservations from the rest of you, but not unfairly.

 

[Braindead]

Thats exactly right, and every other owner that makes a reservation does the same. Everyone that makes a reservation (high point value or not) is selfishly keeping that reservation from the rest of us.

That a VIP owner might be able to use their ownership to get it at a discount doesnt change that

I cant even accept your argument that the second, low value reservation ussd for the upgrade part of a cancel/rebook/cancel/upgrade strategy is being kept from the rest of the owners unfairly .Because for me the last part of the strategy is another rebook. I want that reservation too. Im certainly keeping those reservations from the rest of you, but not unfairly.

I'm saying I want the high point unit. That's what you are keeping from the rest of us. Clearly Wyndham meant for free upgrades not to be used for cancel rebook upgrade times 3 or four to get there.

 

[outofthewoodwork]

I'm saying I want the high point unit. That's what you are keeping from the rest of us. Clearly Wyndham meant for free upgrades not to be used for cancel rebook upgrade times 3 or four to get there.

I am not sure I agree that Wyndham did not mean for that to occur. Years ago the reservation system did not automatically put them back into the system. They did not return until the beginning of the next day. At that time, I believe Wyndham touted that the change was for a VIP benefit which is a tool they used to sell more. As a person who was not a VIP and was not running a rental business, I did not like the change then because at least then I knew when to go to check for a cancellation. I was on the computer early in the morning looking like everyone else. Then is like now sometimes you win and sometimes you lose when a cancellation is made.

 

[ronparise]

Show the page in the manual where the benefit cancel and rebook is stated.

I have the 2013-1014 manual.
Page 332 states Price discounts within 60 days of checkin
Receive discounts on NEW reservations only

I see nothing about canceling a reservation made 8 months prior and rebooking.

If the canceled reservation comes back the next day or some random day at 7AM, you would still have a better than average shot of rebooking it because you know where to look. That's fair and in the rules.

There is nothing in the book about cancelling and rebooking but

the cancellation policy is stated clearly. ie I can cancel up to 15 days before check in and get all my points back..

and the VIP discount policy is stated clearly.. ie a VIP owner gets a discount when making reservations inside the 60 day mark

Now you need to show me where it says I cant do those two things, one right after the other.


I agree the end result isnt what wyndham bargained for when they established these two policies,. If they want to change things, by all means do so, but for now, thats the way it is.

The easy answer is to have the cancelled reservation go to a wait list or if not that just have it return to availability at some random time, the next day

 

[Roger830]

Cancel-rebook is not explicitly stated, but it does not need to be. The policies for cancellation and for booking are explicitly stated, and there is no explicit BAN of sequential use of either reservation feature. You can tilt at this particular windmill all you want, but you won't convince many that the technique is outside of guidelines. I am not even a megarenter, and I don't see how this technique is "illegal.

I've never stated that it's illegal. I'm just saying that it's not a stated benefit. It's obvious that Wyndham is complicate in allowing the practice.

My original post here was not against cancel-rebook, but pointing out that Wyndham made the situation worse by allowing canceled credit pool points to return to the credit pool, which imo will exclude some less aggressive members from booking prime weeks that they otherwise would have obtained.

This has been a spirited debate, but I'm ready to move on to another topic. Nothing will be accomplished by beating a dead horse.

 

[ronparise]

I'm saying I want the high point unit. That's what you are keeping from the rest of us. Clearly Wyndham meant for free upgrades not to be used for cancel rebook upgrade times 3 or four to get there.

you can have that high point unit, and you can keep it from the rest of us. Just decide at 10 months or better yet 13 months ahead of your desired check in day.


Im trying to break it to you softly "You cant have want you want when you want it", Im not going to cancel a high value reservation (whether it was made with a discount or not) for you.. any more than you would cancel your reservation for me... To believe otherwise is really living up to your name.

 

[Ty1on]

you can have that high point unit, and you can keep it from the rest of us. Just decide at 10 months or better yet 13 months ahead of your desired check in day.


Im trying to break it to you softly "You cant have want you want when you want it", Im not going to cancel a high value reservation (whether it was made with a discount or not) for you.. any more than you would cancel your reservation for me... To believe otherwise is really living up to your name.

I agree with this point. You're going to take the high point unit, it's only a matter of how many points you'll end up paying for it.

 

[ronparise]

I've never stated that it's illegal. I'm just saying that it's not a stated benefit. It's obvious that Wyndham is complicate in allowing the practice.

My original post here was not against cancel-rebook, but pointing out that Wyndham made the situation worse by allowing canceled credit pool points to return to the credit pool, which imo will exclude some less aggressive members from booking prime weeks that they otherwise would have obtained.

This has been a spirited debate, but I'm ready to move on to another topic. Nothing will be accomplished by beating a dead horse.

good idea, Cancel and rebook isnt a part of the subject at hand anyway

 

[Braindead]

If after all of this is done and Wyndham changes nothing. I will seriously consider getting a platinum membership. As maintenance fees increase it becomes more appealing to get the discounts especially if your kids and grandkids want it in the future.

 

[Ty1on]

If after all of this is done and Wyndham changes nothing. I will seriously consider getting a platinum membership. As maintenance fees increase it becomes more appealing to get the discounts especially if your kids and grandkids want it in the future.

Now you're catching on....

Also, remember that credit pool points are excluded from any ARP. This means one can use pool points only at the same time every tom, dick, and harry can. That substantially degrades the benefit you bring up in terms of getting the most highly sought after reservations.

 

[Braindead]

The only way Wyndham can stop what is going on in regards to cancel rebook upgrade is to give VIP a smaller discount and allocate a number of upgrade levels per year. All to be done at original booking. Anything short of doing it all at ounce will be worked around as Bigrob pointed out. You can't stop people with access to more than one account from going around the system.

 

[Sandy VDH]

If after all of this is done and Wyndham changes nothing. I will seriously consider getting a platinum membership. As maintenance fees increase it becomes more appealing to get the discounts especially if your kids and grandkids want it in the future.

And remember, Wyndham can change the policy at any time. Do not buy something expecting it to stay, like cancel and rebook. Because if you buy to get VIP Platinum just for that, at some point they might pull the plug on it.

I used to have Unlimited Guest Certificates, gone. It is the one thing I really miss. But I do like the no more cancelled points categoy, which is a new change, and cancelled points just going back into the the bucket they came out of. I do like that.

So on balance I can live with the current changes, but I don't know what next change will do to that balance.

 

[Ty1on]

The only way Wyndham can stop what is going on in regards to cancel rebook upgrade is to give VIP a smaller discount and allocate a number of upgrade levels per year. All to be done at original booking. Anything short of doing it all at ounce will be worked around as Bigrob pointed out. You can't stop people with access to more than one account from going around the system.

There are some things they could do to really put a wrench in things, but I'm not going to give them any ideas.

 

[ronparise]

If after all of this is done and Wyndham changes nothing. I will seriously consider getting a platinum membership. As maintenance fees increase it becomes more appealing to get the discounts especially if your kids and grandkids want it in the future.

Wyndham is making anti renting changes on a regular basis, most recently the 10 nightly limit rule

I believe that they will continue to do this. But they have been careful to impact renting not regular owners and that includes regular platinum owners. These guys are their favorites I seriously doubt that anything will be done to hurt them

So the question is how do you stop renting without having an impact on how non renting VIPs use their accounts

If they determine that cancel and rebook is a mega renter trick and not used by the regular guy VIPs then look for some serious changes. And that's the bet I'm making.