[2016] Account review email [Accts. suspended]

[Roger830]

Hello @Roger 830,
I am not a mega renter, but I wanted to comment that I actually prefer the cancel/credit pool change. It is not easy to find availability or even personal availability for traveling on the the rule of use cancelled points by end of use year. Imagine having an end of use year of Sept. and you have to cancel your reservation in August. What's the possibility of getting a reservation for Sept at a decent place? Very slim...it's hard to do now with your regular points if you don't book at a Year or 13months in advance. It does open up the opportunity for someone to rent a good place at the last minute also on the flip side.

I also like it, but it does have a negative side in allowing aggressive members to secure more prime reservations then entitled to with their regular use year points.

I own weeks 4,5,6 at Hollywood Beach Resort. If I cancel my reservation, I get nothing that year or any other year in return.

I read in the Wyndham manual that the credit pool allows the members the opportunity to secure reservations in the future if they can't travel in the regular use year. That's fine, as was pointed out on other threads, it's similar to banking units and trading. Perhaps when a reservation is made in the credit pool, then canceled, the points should go back to from where they originally came. 2017 canceled points would go back to 2014, 2018 back to 2015. This solves both the credit pool and cancel-rebook problem.

 

[CO skier]

Wyndham revised the Guidelines for WorldMark last January and added a section, Unacceptable Behavior. While it may not directly relate to this discussion, because WorldMark is a different system, it might provide some insight as to how Wyndham currently views timeshare management.


8. Unacceptable Behavior. The Club’s Manager, at its sole and reasonable discretion, may restrict Club services and/or access to an Owner who engages in behaviors that negatively impact the WorldMark program, other Owners and Guests, resort properties and/or Manager’s employees. Such behaviors include, but are not limited to, the use of verbally threatening language, profanity, inflammatory statements, unrestrained emotional outbursts, manipulation of the Club’s Governing Documents and/or Manager’s employees to gain an unfair advantage, and acts of physical harm or malice toward other Owners and Guests, resort properties and/or Manager’s employees. Such restrictions may include, but are not limited to, refusal to provide services and/or access to owner service center, reservation center, front desk, website, and any telephone communications with Manager’s employees. The Club’s Manager may enforce such restriction for such periods of time as it determines in its sole and reasonable discretion. The Manager shall exercise its discretion under this Section consistent with applicable provisions of the Club's Bylaws, Communication Policy, and any other applicable statutes, policies, or guidelines.

 

[Sandi Bo]

I also like it, but it does have a negative side in allowing aggressive members to secure more prime reservations then entitled to with their regular use year points.

I own weeks 4,5,6 at Hollywood Beach Resort. If I cancel my reservation, I get nothing that year or any other year in return.

I read in the Wyndham manual that the credit pool allows the members the opportunity to secure reservations in the future if they can't travel in the regular use year. That's fine, as was pointed out on other threads, it's similar to banking units and trading. Perhaps when a reservation is made in the credit pool, then canceled, the points should go back to from where they originally came. 2017 canceled points would go back to 2014, 2018 back to 2015. This solves both the credit pool and cancel-rebook problem.

The Wyndham system is not able to keep track of points today.

One would think that what they've recently put in place (elimination of cancelled points) would have been simpler and doable. It has proven not to be.

I cannot call and ask a VC what use year points were used for a particular reservation.

Your suggestion would be more challenging logic, I'd like to see them get the current stuff working first.

 

[ronparise]

Consolidating into the following categories, I think this covers it. Copied from earlier post by Roger830 and modified/added to.

POOLING. Canceled points not returning to the credit pool make current year points more than the amount owned.
STRIPPING. Points from stripped contracts left in the account don't equate to amount now owned.
ROLLING. Points rolled over from year to year by canceling into a different use year accumulate.
ACCOUNTING. Accounting discrepancies. Duplication of reservations when purchasing contracts and other system issues.

Whether we like any of these scenarios, think they are ethical, etc, or not is irrelevant. The effect, IMO:

POOLING – This is a Wyndham system issue. Isn’t this in effect Wyndham charging owners to extend the life of their points, then expiring them early (kind of a reverse ROLLING effect). Only person benefiting here is Wyndham. We pay to pool our points, only to have them expire 2 years earlier than they should.

STRIPPING. Allowed by Wyndham policies. We can borrow 2 years in advance and use the points. This has always happened. What I am seeing here is buyer beware. And for Wyndham to agree to take back stripped accounts is their own fault and they need to own that. We call it stripping if someone sells the account, but credit pooling and using the points is okay? Book wise isn’t it the same? As long as someone pays the maintenance, what’s the difference (again, buyer beware).

ROLLING. Rolling occurred for years. Wyndham was fully aware, it’s been discussed openly on tug . Sales used that it as a selling point to market a contract with a different use year to you for that purpose. Rolled points are paid for yet not yet used . Perhaps rolled points were somewhat offsetting stripping and/or pooling. Maybe we need to bring it back?

ACCOUNTING. Wyndham has struggled systematically as long as I’ve been associated with them. Our banks wouldn’t get away with making us liable if they were unable to balance our accounts. Wyndham has yet to be able to resolve very significant issues around point management/points accounting.

I am not justifying the suspension of accounts in any way shape or form. This sucks. However, auditing a moving target is a challenge. Perhaps suspending accounts gives Wyndham a little help in that area? That said, their track record is not good. If they can’t manage our points correctly, where’s the credibility of an audit?

With most things Wyndham, system issues are significant, changes are not well tested, process changes do not seem well thought out nor implemented across the board, and reactions are knee-jerk. The suspension of accounts appears to be a knee-jerk reaction to some very deep rooted, significant, long occurring issues at Wyndham.

Wyndham is the one changing the rules, we adapt. They shouldn’t be able to retroactively change the rules (keeping up moving forward is challenging enough). If I thought I thought I bought something for a $1, sold it for $2, you can’t go back and change my purchase price to $3.

They need a group of well-versed owner/users to help them out of this hole! They need to fix their systems. Policies and processes need to be implemented across the board and communicated to all departments.

In summary, my finger of shame points directly back Wyndham. They need to own up to their own inadequacies and stop trying to blame the owners. Buck up and take responsibility Wyndham.

I always saw myself as one of those well versed owners that knows the tricks and the loopholes and the problems and that has told Wyndham (either on this forum, or directly) Tthey didn't ask for my advice but I gave it to them

**********************

Years ago, when banks employed people to balance the books instead of computers, I made a $1000 deposit to my account and was credited with $10000. The first I knew of the mistake was at the end of the month when I got my statement. And the bank didn't catch it until I told them about it.

That money was not mine. I could have spent it but the bank would have caught their mistake sooner or later. And I would have to give it back or be treated as a thief.

So Wyndham has finally found some accounts that have a large number of points unsupported by large ownerships. I think they will find some that are the result of wyndham errors, either poor programming or outright mistakes. (Kinda like the mistake my bank made) In these cases Wyndham will I think, take the points back. And I think they will find some cases where the imbalance is easily explained and absolutely legitimate and the points will, in those cases, stay. At least that's what I I think now

Bottom line is that if the maintenance fees have been paid or will be paid for every point they ought to stay. And if not, not


And then once this mess is behind us, we ought to see some changes. Better computer systems, and some new rules

 

[Roger830]

The Wyndham system is not able to keep track of points today.

One would think that what they've recently put in place (elimination of cancelled points) would have been simpler and doable. It has proven not to be.

I cannot call and ask a VC what use year points were used for a particular reservation.

Your suggestion would be more challenging logic, I'd like to see them get the current stuff working first.

My system is very simple and will work.

Let me preface my remarks with my background. I had two careers, engineering and IT where I ran a department of two on Honeywell and IBM AS/400 systems and I know that I would have been able to program a system that could keep track of points.

My system takes the expiration date of the credit pooled points and subtracts 3 years, then assigns that year to the points. Points that expire in 2016, 2017, 2018 would be lost. Those credit pooled in 2016 and expire in 2019 would return back to 2016 where they could once again be credit pooled.

Remember, the primary function of the credit pool, besides profiting Wyndham, is to extend points for a member unable to use all of the points in a given year, not to provide a means of creating booking currency for VIP's.

 

[Sandi Bo]

My system is very simple and will work.

You code it, I'll test it!

 

[Ty1on]

My system is very simple and will work.

Let me preface my remarks with my background. I had two careers, engineering and IT where I ran a department of two on Honeywell and IBM AS/400 systems and I know that I would have been able to program a system that could keep track of points.

My system takes the expiration date of the credit pooled points and subtracts 3 years, then assigns that year to the points. Points that expire in 2016, 2017, 2018 would be lost. Those credit pooled in 2016 and expire in 2019 would return back to 2016 where they could once again be credit pooled.

Remember, the primary function of the credit pool, besides profiting Wyndham, is to extend points for a member unable to use all of the points in a given year, not to provide a means of creating booking currency for VIP's.

But the credit pool lasts 3 years beyond the date they are pooled. Under this system, owners could still continually extend the points by cancelling and repooling up to end of original use year. Large enough chunks of points would make it worth the fees.

 

[Roger830]

But the credit pool lasts 3 years beyond the date they are pooled. Under this system, owners could still continually extend the points by cancelling and repooling up to end of original use year. Large enough chunks of points would make it worth the fees.

Only the current year could be repooled by a vip who also pooled in that year.

When a reservation is made with points that were pooled in 2015 that expire in 2018, the reservation would tag them as 2015 points. Then if canceled they would be lost.

A vip can pool points in the current year. If a reservation is made with those points, it will be tagged as 2016. If canceled, they are still 2016. If it's before Oct 1, then the platinum vip can once again pool them.

 

[Ty1on]

Only the current year could be repooled by a vip who also pooled in that year.

When a reservation is made with points that were pooled in 2015 that expire in 2018, the reservation would tag them as 2015 points. Then if canceled they would be lost.

A vip can pool points in the current year. If a reservation is made with those points, it will be tagged as 2016. If canceled, they are still 2016. If it's before Oct 1, then the platinum vip can once again pool them.

This seems roughly the way cancelled points worked before they were ended.

I honestly think the current system could work if they could get it right.

 

[ronparise]

My system is very simple and will work.

Let me preface my remarks with my background. I had two careers, engineering and IT where I ran a department of two on Honeywell and IBM AS/400 systems and I know that I would have been able to program a system that could keep track of points.

My system takes the expiration date of the credit pooled points and subtracts 3 years, then assigns that year to the points. Points that expire in t2016, 2017, 2018 would be lost. Those credit pooled in 2016 and expire in 2019 would return back to 2016 where they could once again be credit pooled.

Remember, the primary function of the credit pool, besides profiting Wyndham, is to extend points for a member unable to use all of the points in a given year, not to provide a means of creating booking currency for VIP's.

I'm not sure what problem you are trying to solve with your new code. But I don't think it's a problem Wyndham has

The credit pool is a tool for all owners. Not just VIP owners

The credit pool has two functions 1) to extend points for a member unable to use all their points in a given year 2) to "borrow" future points for use in the current year

To my knowledge points in the pool already retain their original use year identity and their association with the contract they came from


There is no abuse with the credit pool as it exists ... Points are not created out of nothing and as long as the owner stays an owner and pays there fees there is no problem to solve

Here's what in talking about

Imagine a new owner with a 105000 point account this month . He has 2016 points he can use now and he can credit pool his 2017 and 2018 points so now he has 315000 points in the pool. In January he can credit pool his 2019 points.

Now imagine he finds a vacancy at a resort for check in March 2017 and he uses all his points for that reservation.

And when he gets home he decided Wyndham is not for him. So he stops paying mf and the account is foreclosed

What happened from the owners viewpoint is that he got the use of 4 years worth of points and only paid 8 months fees

What happened from wyndhams viewpoint is that he stole over 300000 credits


That's the potential problem Wyndham needs to solve without screwing up what's a great benefit for non stealing owners

This audit is in my opinion an attempt to find a problem that may not even exist. And if there is a problem to define it and fix it (and to recover stolen points if there are any)

 

[jjmanthei05]

Only the current year could be repooled by a vip who also pooled in that year.

When a reservation is made with points that were pooled in 2015 that expire in 2018, the reservation would tag them as 2015 points. Then if canceled they would be lost.

A vip can pool points in the current year. If a reservation is made with those points, it will be tagged as 2016. If canceled, they are still 2016. If it's before Oct 1, then the platinum vip can once again pool them.

I think your looking at this backwards. Your proposed change would have a major affect on your "regular" owners versus the VIP megarenters. Most megarenters are pulling points forward so right now they would have 16, 17 and 18 year points available in the credit pool. In your scenario if they were to book something now, and cancel it. Those points would go back to 2017 making them available again. The person who would truly be affected is a resale/regular owner that pooled last year because they couldn't vacation, booked a reservation for this year and something happened they couldn't go. Under your change, they are out those points and no vacation. I think this would make many more disgruntled owners than the current system.

Jason

 

[ronparise]

But the credit pool lasts 3 years beyond the date they are pooled. Under this system, owners could still continually extend the points by cancelling and repooling up to end of original use year. Large enough chunks of points would make it worth the fees.

You can't re pool cancelled pooled points. If you cancel they are supposed go back to having their same expiration date

Now they don't and that's a problem to fix but it doesn't result in the manufacture of points

I'm with co skier. Why this obsession with the pool

 

[ronparise]

My system is very simple and will work.

Let me preface my remarks with my background. I had two careers, engineering and IT where I ran a department of two on Honeywell and IBM AS/400 systems and I know that I would have been able to program a system that could keep track of points.

My system takes the expiration date of the credit pooled points and subtracts 3 years, then assigns that year to the points. Points that expire in 2016, 2017, 2018 would be lost. Those credit pooled in 2016 and expire in 2019 would return back to 2016 where they could once again be credit pooled.

Remember, the primary function of the credit pool, besides profiting Wyndham, is to extend points for a member unable to use all of the points in a given year, not to provide a means of creating booking currency for VIP's.

Wyndham doesnt profit from the credit pool

 

[Roger830]

I'm not sure what problem you are trying to solve with your new code. But I don't think it's a problem Wyndham has

The credit pool is a tool for all owners. Not just VIP owners

The credit pool has two functions 1) to extend points for a member unable to use all their points in a given year 2) to "borrow" future points for use in the current year

To my knowledge points in the pool already retain their original use year identity and their association with the contract they came from

There is no abuse with the credit pool as it exists ...)

There are two problems that I'm solving.

Wyndham programmers need a simplar system that comforms to their ability.

The second problem is one that I foresee. When a vip books with credit pooled points, then cancels and rebooks at a discount, the points saved go back to the credit pool. These points can then be used the following year for prime bookings in addition to their regular year points. This is equvalent to rolling points forward by multiple use years, except that it's allowed by the rules, thus more members will make use of it. It's like inflation, creating currency with no increase in supply of units. This could result in more disgruntled owners not being able to book desirable units

 

[bobbyoc23]

Imagine a new owner with a 105000 point account this month . He has 2016 points he can use now and he can credit pool his 2017 and 2018 points so now he has 315000 points in the pool. In January he can credit pool his 2019 points.

Now imagine he finds a vacancy at a resort for check in March 2017 and he uses all his points for that reservation.

And when he gets home he decided Wyndham is not for him. So he stops paying mf and the account is foreclosed

What happened from the owners viewpoint is that he got the use of 4 years worth of points and only paid 8 months fees

What happened from wyndhams viewpoint is that he stole over 300000 credits


That's the potential problem Wyndham needs to solve without screwing up what's a great benefit for non stealing owners

I'm still new to Wyndham and have never credit pooled points (so I definitely haven't considered all associated consequences), but why not make owners pre-pay their maintenance fees when pooling points?

 

[ronparise]

If you are trying to help wyndham in this, what you need to do is focus on the question at hand...

How is it possible to seemingly manufacture points?


and is it a problem of loopholes that need to be closed, or is it a wyndham systems problem that needs to be solved

The credit pool explains some of it (maybe up to a 4:1 ratio of points in the account to points owned) But not all of it

The cancel and rebook and upgrade thing doesnt explain any of it

what else do you have???

 

[raygo123]

There are two problems that I'm solving.

Wyndham programmers need a simplar system that comforms to their ability.

The second problem is one that I foresee. When a vip books with credit pooled points, then cancels and rebooks at a discount, the points saved go back to the credit pool. These points can then be used the following year for prime bookings in addition to their regular year points. This is equvalent to rolling points forward by multiple use years, except that it's allowed by the rules, thus more members will make use of it. It's like inflation, creating currency with no increase in supply of units. This could result in more disgruntled owners not being able to book desirable units

That may be in the fix. I am doing exactly what you are saying. I am not a renter, with only 3 GC's ever usedbsince 1987. I called in and said I want to book a reservation, which I wanted to use credit pool points. I was told that the VC's can't override system any more.
That my current year points will have to be used first, with the balance coming from the credit pool.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

[ronparise]

I'm still new to Wyndham and have never credit pooled points (so I definitely haven't considered all associated consequences), but why not make owners pre-pay their maintenance fees when pooling points?

what difference does it make if I pay my maintenance fees now or later, as long as they are paid.

 

[bobbyoc23]

It doesn't make a difference as long as you pay your fees, I was trying to address the potential issue of an owner pooling points, using them, and then not paying maintenance fees after using the reservation. Not relevant to the larger questions at hand I suppose...

 

[ronparise]

There are two problems that I'm solving.

Wyndham programmers need a simplar system that comforms to their ability.

The second problem is one that I foresee. When a vip books with credit pooled points, then cancels and rebooks at a discount, the points saved go back to the credit pool. These points can then be used the following year for prime bookings in addition to their regular year points. This is equvalent to rolling points forward by multiple use years, except that it's allowed by the rules, thus more members will make use of it. It's like inflation, creating currency with no increase in supply of units. This could result in more disgruntled owners not being able to book desirable units

The cancel and rebook thing seems to creates currency, but it doesnt. In an account that does a lot of cancel and rebookings and credit pooling, you can add up all the points in reservations and available to use, and the total wont exceed 4 years of ownership

Do what you will to stop cancel an rebook and your problem is solved, good job. But thats not the problem Wyndham is working on today

 

[ronparise]

It doesn't make a difference as long as you pay your fees, I was trying to address the potential issue of an owner pooling points, using them, and then not paying maintenance fees after using the reservation. Not relevant to the larger questions at hand I suppose...

It actually is the exact problem they are trying to solve because what they see, or think they see, is a ton of points for which no maintenance fees will be paid.

 

[raygo123]

The cancel and rebook thing seems to creates currency, but it doesnt. In an account that does a lot of cancel and rebookings and credit pooling, you can add up all the points in reservations and available to use, and the total wont exceed 4 years of ownership

Do what you will to stop cancel an rebook and your problem is solved, good job. But thats not the problem Wyndham is working on today

Your opinion makes alot of sense. Probably someone saw a trend in the credit pool, or a problem with a renters account and trying to get everyone on the same page triggered all this where the account had an excessive amount of points vs points owned.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

[Ty1on]

You can't re pool cancelled pooled points. If you cancel they are supposed go back to having their same expiration date

Now they don't and that's a problem to fix but it doesn't result in the manufacture of points

I'm with co skier. Why this obsession with the pool

I agree. Under his suggestion, you could.

 

[ronparise]

Your opinion makes alot of sense. Probably someone saw a trend in the credit pool, or a problem with a renters account and trying to get everyone on the same page triggered all this where the account had an excessive amount of points vs points owned.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

exactly right... (your second guess)

 

[Ty1on]

Your opinion makes alot of sense. Probably someone saw a trend in the credit pool, or a problem with a renters account and trying to get everyone on the same page triggered all this where the account had an excessive amount of points vs points owned.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

We keep saying credit pool, but we don't know if it's a credit pool problem or not.