[2016] Account review email [Accts. suspended]

[CO skier]

This has been a spirited debate, but I'm ready to move on to another topic. Nothing will be accomplished by beating a dead horse.

Five days into this, I do not know that we are any closer to knowing why so many owners were caught in the round-up, or when they may regain account access.

In the meantime, at least a few reasonable people are starting to understand how a few thousand Platinum owners manipulating the system to bring billions of points into reservations that would not be there without Cancel-Rebook-Upgrade, unfairly increases competition for reservations at 10 months.

That is something worth the time spent, even if Wyndham chooses to do nothing about it as a result of the current investigation.

 

[CO skier]

The only way Wyndham can stop what is going on in regards to cancel rebook upgrade is to give VIP a smaller discount and allocate a number of upgrade levels per year.

Eliminating VIP discounts as a good, but failed idea would end all flavors of cancel-rebook. (I would not put any money on this transpiring).

Owner-to-owner transfer of credits was a good, but failed idea that is with us no more, so there is precedent and offers something to think about.

 

[ronparise]

Five days into this, I do not know that we are any closer to knowing why so many owners were caught in the round-up, or when they may regain account access.

In the meantime, at least a few reasonable people are starting to understand how a few thousand Platinum owners manipulating the system to bring billions of points into reservations that would not be there without Cancel-Rebook-Upgrade, unfairly increases competition for reservations at 10 months.

That is something worth the time spent, even if Wyndham chooses to do nothing about it as a result of the current investigation.

We know exactly why the suspensions are happening. At least those of us that have talked with their lawyers know

And it has nothing to do with cancel and re book and nothing to do with renting

It more of a mega owner thing than mega renter and not even mega. Some pretty small accounts are involved

Although my idea of small may be different than yours

 

[raygo123]

Reasonable? I wonder how reasonable one would be if the shoe is on the other foot. I like it and hope it stays.
If you are not willing to be ready to book at exactly 10 months to the minute, the good will be gone Inca NY second. Has nothing to do with discounts. It is a totally new ballgame as deeds converted to points, and non access points hit at 10 months. The only thing that will change are the people's name on the reservation.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

[ronparise]

Reasonable? I wonder how reasonable one would be if the shoe is on the other foot. I like it and hope it stays.
If you are not willing to be ready to book at exactly 10 months to the minute, the good will be gone Inca NY second. Has nothing to do with discounts. It is a totally new ballgame as deeds converted to points, and non access points hit at 10 months. The only thing that will change are the people's name on the reservation.

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Not even the names will change. Discount or not I'm still going to be making my rervations at 13 or 10 months

There are only a finite number of high value reservations and a whole lot of owners. My point is that there will be a large number of points chasing a small number of reservations with or with out the discounts. In fact there may me more points chasing the high value reservations because without the discounts I'm gonna need more

 

[vacationhopeful]

Reasonable? I wonder how reasonable one would be if the shoe is on the other foot. I like it and hope it stays.
If you are not willing to be ready to book at exactly 10 months to the minute, the good will be gone Inca NY second. Has nothing to do with discounts. It is a totally new ballgame as deeds converted to points, and non access points hit at 10 months. The only thing that will change are the people's name on the reservation.

I won't feel sorry for you when IF YOUR WORLD VISION is the outcome of Wyndham' actions. The resorts/HOAs will have to foreclose on deeds with the HOAs RAISING MFs to cover those COSTS for legal and nonpayments. Fewer upgrading or improvements will be done to resorts ...or take way longer. Staff and services will be cut back ... as FEWER dollars are following into the HOAs. Costs for lawyers and court fees will all be part of the HOAs costs....NOT Wyndham's bill.

Sure .... you may be able to BOOK Prime time at your resort but the resort will be laying off staff and closing down buildings/pools due to lack of operating funds in the LOW seasons. And as for NEW sofas or beds ... or planting seasonal flowers ... NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. 25% fewer owners .... 40%+ fewer staff ... 75% fewer VARIABLE costs are like staff, repairs, and improvements. No new painting projects, no front desk after 8PM of before 7AM, no activities staff, no midweek clean & tidy, no new furniture, no new mattresses, fees for internet service, fewer TVs and cable channels.

And YOUR MFs will climb way faster than you can image ... still got to pay 100% the property taxes, the water & sewer bills, the insurance bills, electric bill, mow the grass, etc. And services will drop quickly.

And the worst the resorts look and feel ... less people will buy into your timeshare place. But those older owners will continue to die or become disable to travel, or the raising costs will force them to turn back their deeds.

Resorts will have to file bankruptcy .... after all Wyndham is just an independent management company running a reservation system & computer .. US (as in YOU and me) are the owners.

 

[Jan M.]

Cancel and rebook

First of all when a VIP owner books, cancels and rebooks, only the amount of points actually used is returned to their account. Points don't somehow magically multiply themselves when they go back into your account. Yes VIP owners are eligible for discounts and upgrades and they paid for these benefits. But you still only have what you own to work with unless you rent or buy more points.

I keep seeing posts from an individual or individuals who are crying about the VIP owner's ability to cancel and rebook. First of all let me say that every single Platinum Presidential Reserve point we own was purchased directly through Wyndham and we paid dearly for those VIP benefits. To those of you who seemingly advocate striping these benefits from those of us who paid for them, why are you advocating what amounts to THEFT of something we paid for? If you did not spend the money to receive those same benefits or choose not to use the benefits you paid for, STOP POSTING YOUR BIGOTED, SELF SERVING RANTS!

And while I am on my high horse, to those of you are complaining about mega-renters hogging all the good inventory, if you would SHUT YOUR MOUTHS AND OPEN YOUR EYES you would see that Wyndham is manipulating the inventory. We should all be extremely concerned about this but certain people continually posting about mega renters and the cancel/rebook privilege deflects the attention away from this very real and troubling issue. Makes me wonder if they aren't Wyndham spies trying confuse and obstruct while something HUGE is happening right under our noses!

 

[bobbyoc23]

I keep seeing posts from an individual or individuals who are crying about the VIP owner's ability to cancel and rebook. First of all let me say that every single Platinum Presidential Reserve point we own was purchased directly through Wyndham and we paid dearly for those VIP benefits. To those of you who seemingly advocate striping these benefits from those of us who paid for them, why are you advocating what amounts to THEFT of something we paid for? If you did not spend the money to receive those same benefits or choose not to use the benefits you paid for, STOP POSTING YOUR BIGOTED, SELF SERVING RANTS!

I don't think people want VIP benefits removed from the system, I think they are saying that the "cancel-rebook" method was an unintended outcome of the different VIP benefits, and was not the original intent/spirit of the benefits. Someone said something to the effect that the benefits are so VIPs can make last minute reservations cheaply. Cancelling and rebooking that reservation cheaply was not the original intent.

At least that's how I read the argument. And it seems to have strayed from the original theme of this thread.

 

[CO skier]

Then there are the unreasonable people who post in all caps and exclamation points.

When a owner uses Cancel-Rebook-Upgrade to book a 3 bedroom Presidential unit for 90,000 points 385,000 points are returned to the account and only 90,000 points are deducted from the account. The owner now has 295,000 more points in reservations-plus-points than they did before the cancel-rebook-upgrade.

But that 3 bedroom Presidential unit still must come off the books for the full 385,000 points.

Where do other 295,000 points come from?

This is how someone with only 2 million points can control 6.72 million points or more worth of reservations.

 

[raygo123]

I won't feel sorry for you when IF YOUR WORLD VISION is the outcome of Wyndham' actions. The resorts/HOAs will have to foreclose on deeds with the HOAs RAISING MFs to cover those COSTS for legal and nonpayments. Fewer upgrading or improvements will be done to resorts ...or take way longer. Staff and services will be cut back ... as FEWER dollars are following into the HOAs. Costs for lawyers and court fees will all be part of the HOAs costs....NOT Wyndham's bill.

Sure .... you may be able to BOOK Prime time at your resort but the resort will be laying off staff and closing down buildings/pools due to lack of operating funds in the LOW seasons. And as for NEW sofas or beds ... or planting seasonal flowers ... NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. 25% fewer owners .... 40%+ fewer staff ... 75% fewer VARIABLE costs are like staff, repairs, and improvements. No new painting projects, no front desk after 8PM of before 7AM, no activities staff, no midweek clean & tidy, no new furniture, no new mattresses, fees for internet service, fewer TVs and cable channels.

And YOUR MFs will climb way faster than you can image ... still got to pay 100% the property taxes, the water & sewer bills, the insurance bills, electric bill, mow the grass, etc. And services will drop quickly.

And the worst the resorts look and feel ... less people will buy into your timeshare place. But those older owners will continue to die or become disable to travel, or the raising costs will force them to turn back their deeds.

Resorts will have to file bankruptcy .... after all Wyndham is just an independent management company running a reservation system & computer .. US (as in YOU and me) are the owners.

Umm, so you want to see it go? Or stay the same?
Which makes that happen?

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[CO skier]

it seems to have strayed from the original theme of this thread.

I thought I was done at about post 152, but then it continued.

I thought I was done at post 226.

Now it seems the topic is receiving more interest than the OP. Maybe it needs its own thread if people want to work it over some more.

 

[Bigrob]

I don't think people want VIP benefits removed from the system, I think they are saying that the "cancel-rebook" method was an unintended outcome of the different VIP benefits, and was not the original intent/spirit of the benefits. Someone said something to the effect that the benefits are so VIPs can make last minute reservations cheaply. Cancelling and rebooking that reservation cheaply was not the original intent.

At least that's how I read the argument. And it seems to have strayed from the original theme of this thread.

Whether intended or not, it has certainly been a major selling theme for Wyndham Sales. I imagine there are many owners just like Jan M. who are following an approach described to them by their helpful sales staff to "maximize the value of their VIP ownership." And were it not for that benefit, "intended" or not, they would not have made the purchase they made.

Closing the loophole that has been included as a part of the sales process for years will have a cost to Wyndham. Owners like Jan M. are not going to be candidates for upsell, and current owners comprise a significant percentage of Wyndham Sales volume. Think about it... if you are a current silver owner, and you're no longer able to get discounted or upgraded reservations, what motivation do you have to reach for gold or platinum?

 

[bnoble]

I'm not worried about Wyndham Sales losing the ability to upsell someone. Even if this specific mechanism goes away, the longer discount window and deeper discount %-age will still be flogged as a reason to buy. The fact that the discounted inventory could truly be leftovers (vs. what happens now) will conveniently be unmentioned. Remember: timeshare is a product that is sold, not bought.

 

[Bigrob]

I'm not worried about Wyndham Sales losing the ability to upsell someone. Even if this specific mechanism goes away, the longer discount window and deeper discount %-age will still be flogged as a reason to buy. The fact that the discounted inventory could truly be leftovers (vs. what happens now) will conveniently be unmentioned. Remember: timeshare is a product that is sold, not bought.

I'm not worried about it either. But I'm pretty sure some folks at Wyndham are, otherwise the changes being discussed would have been implemented already. It probably wouldn't impact sales to new owners much. But it would impact sales to existing owners who are temporary silver, silver, and gold, as they will see firsthand the erosion of the benefit being touted.

 

[Braindead]

The only way Wyndham can stop what is going on in regards to cancel rebook upgrade is to give VIP a smaller discount and allocate a number of upgrade levels per year. All to be done at original booking. Anything short of doing it all at ounce will be worked around as Bigrob pointed out. You can't stop people with access to more than one account from going around the system.

I never said to take away VIP discount and upgrades!! I tried to make it simple for you and do it all at one time. Just a smaller discount maybe 25-30 percent on all reservations and you don't have to worry about losing your vacation later

 

[Braindead]

My idea is to get you the unit you want the first time. One unit is spoken for and the rest are left for everyone else.

 

[CO skier]

Whether intended or not, it has certainly been a major selling theme for Wyndham Sales. I imagine there are many owners just like Jan M. who are following an approach described to them by their helpful sales staff to "maximize the value of their VIP ownership." And were it not for that benefit, "intended" or not, they would not have made the purchase they made.

Closing the loophole that has been included as a part of the sales process for years will have a cost to Wyndham. Owners like Jan M. are not going to be candidates for upsell, and current owners comprise a significant percentage of Wyndham Sales volume. Think about it... if you are a current silver owner, and you're no longer able to get discounted or upgraded reservations, what motivation do you have to reach for gold or platinum?

The sales department on the WorldMark side of Wyndham used a loophole to sell additional credits to owners for 10 years or more. They would explain why the prospect needed more credits to book throwaway days and get a jump ahead of the line for "regular Joes" who were waiting for the 13 month booking window to open.

That loophole was closed on January 1 this year, and I think that experience led to the "manipulation" part of the Unacceptable Behavior guideline.

Owners who were sold additional credits based on the throwaway days loophole were understandably upset, but the WorldMark Board of Directors did the right thing for the majority of the membership by closing the loophole.

 

[Bigrob]

The sales department on the WorldMark side of Wyndham used a loophole to sell additional credits to owners for 10 years or more. They would explain why the prospect needed more credits to book throwaway days and get a jump ahead of the line for "regular Joes" who were waiting for the 13 month booking window to open.

That loophole was closed on January 1 this year, and I think that experience led to the "manipulation" part of the Unacceptable Behavior guideline.

Owners who were sold additional credits based on the throwaway days loophole were understandably upset, but the WorldMark Board of Directors did the right thing for the majority of the membership by closing the loophole.

Maybe that will be the test case? I would guess the sales organization would look closely at what impact, if any, that had on sales to existing owners within the Worldmark system.

I'm not as familiar with Worldmark as Wyndham, but I seem to recall that owners had more representation on the Board than they do at Wyndham. If so, it would be more likely that a change could be implemented for the benefit of the majority of owners, even if it adversely impacts sales.

Like Worldmark, the provision already exists within the Wyndham Trust Agreement for a "wait list". It simply hasn't been executed.

 

[ronparise]

Then there are the unreasonable people who post in all caps and exclamation points.

When a owner uses Cancel-Rebook-Upgrade to book a 3 bedroom Presidential unit for 90,000 points 385,000 points are returned to the account and only 90,000 points are deducted from the account. The owner now has 295,000 more points in reservations-plus-points than they did before the cancel-rebook-upgrade.

But that 3 bedroom Presidential unit still must come off the books for the full 385,000 points.

Where do other 295,000 points come from?

This is how someone with only 2 million points can control 6.72 million points or more worth of reservations.

They don't have 295000 more points after the cancel and rebook they have 90000 points in a reservation and they have 295000 still available to make another reservation. That still adds up to your starting point of 385000 there is no manufacture of points

I'm tempted to use all caps too but I don't think that will help you see through the fog machine you are running

 

[ronparise]

The sales department on the WorldMark side of Wyndham used a loophole to sell additional credits to owners for 10 years or more. They would explain why the prospect needed more credits to book throwaway days and get a jump ahead of the line for "regular Joes" who were waiting for the 13 month booking window to open.

That loophole was closed on January 1 this year, and I think that experience led to the "manipulation" part of the Unacceptable Behavior guideline.

Owners who were sold additional credits based on the throwaway days loophole were understandably upset, but the WorldMark Board of Directors did the right thing for the majority of the membership by closing the loophole.

Yes that loophole was closed. They picked a date in the future to make the change effective. But that's not what they are doing here

here and now in club Wyndham they are not proposing a rule change. they are threatening to go into our accounts, cancel reservations and take points out

 

[travelwyndham]

Thank you. Well said. Applause!!!!

 

[chapjim]

The big problem is the combination cancel rebook upgrade. That's what causes units not to be available to the rest of us. Units are held to be cacelled to upgrade. That's where everythings not equal VIPs cancel wait for it to comeback in a couple of minutes. It's a stroke of luck if someone else grabs it before the VIP that cancelled it grabs it back.

If I didn't do the cancel-rebook-upgrade, it still wouldn't be available to you.

Why should things be equal? If you spent the same amount of money I did, you would have the same opportunities I have. Unequal purchases = unequal status.

 

[CO skier]

They don't have 295000 more points after the cancel and rebook they have 90000 points in a reservation and they have 295000 still available to make another reservation. That still adds up to your starting point of 385000 there is no manufacture of points

I'm tempted to use all caps too but I don't think that will help you see through the fog machine you are running

One of my deeds reads, “A 210,000/17,743,000 undivided fee simple absolute interest in Units xxxx to xxxx …”


An owner reserves a 385,000 3 bedroom Presidential. They cancel-rebook-upgrade with the net effect of still having the 3 bedroom Presidential that cost 90,000 points plus the 295,000 points leftover after the upgrade.

Right?

The owner then reserves a 2 bedroom Presidential for 295,000 points.

Wyndham cannot change my deed to read, “A 210,000/17,448,000 fee simple absolute interest … just because someone booked a 385,000 unit in my complex for 90,000 points. Wyndham must account for all 17,743,000 points. When the owner stays in the 3 bedroom unit, 385,000 (not 90,000) points must be deducted from Wyndham’s accounting for my complex.

When the owner stays in the 2 bedroom, 295,000 points must be deducted from Wyndham’s accounting for my complex.

The owner was charged 90,000 points for the 3 bedroom plus 295,000 points for the 2 bedroom equals 385,000 points.

Wyndham deducted 385,000 points for the 3 bedroom and 295,000 points for the 2 bedroom from my complex equals 630,000 points.

630,000 points deducted minus 385,000 points collected from the owner leaves 295,000 points that need to come from somewhere.


I am sorry that I cannot make it any plainer than that.

 

[bobbyoc23]

Thank you, I had this same type of question floating around in my head while reading these posts. I'll admit that I do not know exactly how the system works (I guess I should do more reading/research), but I assumed that the number of total points in the denominator of your deed encompassed the total number of points needed to book every unit every day of the year at your home resort. And that's why the total number of points in a resort cannot increase over time (unless they build new units), but adjustments can be made for points required for week day/week end nights, unit sizes, seasons, etc. So booking two units that should require 630,000 points using 385,000 points would seem to break the system. You now have 295,000 more points to use at that resort for time that seemingly should not exist.

Do I have this wrong?

 

[travelwyndham]

I've been reading this train of posts since the beginning. And I do have an opinion...please remember it is just that, my opinion.

When my wife and I went to our presentation we were told about the benefits of VIP. One of those benefits was the ability to book reservations at a discount and possibly get a free upgrade, assuming there was availability during that window. No one said anything about cancel-rebook. And, the book says nothing about cancel-rebook as an option...for anyone.

I think the point many here are trying to make is that the VIP experience is SUPPOSED to be available based on available inventory in the system, not inventory created by someone cancelling a reservation to create said inventory. This goes against the very idea of allowing VIP owners access to "extra" inventory as a perk of ownership....becausr let's be honest, that's what you were sold, not cancel-rebook.

If anyone disagrees with the above please show where in your contract they offered cancel-rebook as an option. It's not there...and has been stated many times in other posts, if it's not in the contract it's not part of the deal.

The whole point is that VIPs getting the points discounts and upgrades is SUPPOSED to br from inventory not already reserved by all the other owners. While the system allows cancel-rebook no one can say that it is an intended consequence.

Someone made the point that the way the current system is run that a megarenter "generates " millions of additional points for them to use to rent other, high demand properties under the current system. These extra millions of points "generated" by cancel-rebook creates more competition for rooms...something, again, not intended but has been allowed. If VIPs were able to use their points for discounts and cancel-rebook according to the book, while inventory would not increase, demand would decrease allowing more owners to be happy with their purchases.

Many an argument has been made that people are unhappy with their Wyndham purchase because they aren't willing to understand the reservation timeline and process. Should they, then, not be told about megarenters in their presentation from Wyndham and told that if you really want a high demand week you better be on the phone at 7am at 13 months? No, people are not told this because the system was designed for VIPs to use the excess inventory, not create excess inventory.

VIPs are using the system, literally the technology, to their advantage. Kudos. It is technically legal. But then to turn around and tell someone they made a bad purchase because they are frustrated with available inventory knowing that, as a megarenter, you have booked a significant portion of the available rooms (in combination with other megarenters) Of a high demand week, is, well, a questionable practice at the least.

The whole Wyndham concept is designed around individuals enjoying vacations with their families...not setting up vacation businesses using the Wyndham resorts as the backbone.

If this is going to change Wyndham must make the change....i doubt megarenters are going To voluntarily leave inventory in place so I can book the vacation my family wants to take.

Just my $.02.

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Wyndham did make a change. They've made lots of changes. "Megarenters" used to book blocks of rooms, sometimes entire towers. Now they cannot have more than 10 units at a resort for the same timeframe. If someone has enough points to book 10 units at Christmas week, then good for them. However, they can't book more than those 10. Also, the guest confirmations are very expensive. For every reservation, a person has to pay $99-$129 just to add someone. That could be just to add their kids or spouse to their own reservation (when a large family needs 2 or 3 units at a resort, they have to pay so that they don't overlap). Also, it took our family years of scrimping and saving (we even took on a paper route) to get up to a platinum account. We saw the benefits and it made a lot of sense to pay the big bucks to get ourselves an account that would offer double the reservations (with a 50% discount) and more (with free upgrades) for not only us, but for our kids and for their kids and so on. It just made sense. If you can afford it, then go platinum and start enjoying the same pleasures of other VIP owners. If you can't afford it, then make it a priority (like we did, and start saving), and if you feel like its not worth it, then stick to your full price reservations and be happy with what you bought. Unfortunately, that being said, it kind of stinks that even after paying hundreds of thousands of dollars to own our now Presidential Reserve account... we don't really own anything, because Wyndham seems to be free to take it all away at their discretion, with no recourse.