[2008] Southcape Resort

[TUGBrian]

Perhaps all this means is that they are investigating a way to answer all of your questions legally with the advice and help of the resorts' atty.

I certainly would think that any time, effort and money put into pulling lawyers into the situation would result in clearing up all of the questions and concerns voiced by owners.

 

[tombo]

Since NEVMSLLC is no longer replying to concerns raised here, even by Southcape owners, I emailed him mine. His reply to me is that, given the fact that I have publicly and privately accused the trustees of criminal activity, the matter has been turned over to legal counsel.

Now whose attorney is providing this legal counsel? If it's the resort's attorney, we deeded owners are paying for it!

His legal counsel is probably your legal counsel since I would bet that his legal counsel is being paid for by Southscape. Rather than representing the owners, that lawyer will be defending the developers and trustees using the owner's money. Been there, done that. It sucks.

As we left the courtroom one time the HOA's attorney asked me for some information and I told him to get it from our lawyer. He asked our lawyer and our lawyer told him to get it himself. He said kind of sarcastically "ya'll have a good attorney". In front of the Resort's board members and our lawyer and the court bailiff, I blew up. I said which attorney of ours are you talking about? I said are you talking about the one we hired to protect us from the board's actions using our own personal money, or you who was hired by the board to protect themselves while also using our money? I said hell we are paying for the lawyer that is fighting for us and you who is fighting against us. I had to walk away because I was so mad there was no telling what i would have said.

Perhaps the Resort's attorney will answer some of your questions, but I doubt it. Somehow the Board/trustees seems to always have the resort's attorney looking out for them instead of having the resort's attorney looking out for the owners. It isn't fair, but it is one of the battles you face.

 

[Sou13]

IP address

The IP address for the reply from NEVMSLLC was [209.85.210.204]. Is that the Sandcastle IP?

 

[w.bob]

The IP address for the reply from NEVMSLLC was [209.85.210.204]. Is that the Sandcastle IP?

found the following by putting 209.85.210.204 in the address bar.

IP Address: 209.85.210.204
Hostname: mail-yx0-f204.google.com

Location Information

City: Mountain View
Region: California
Country: United States
Postal: 94043
Lat/Long: 37.4192 -122.0574

ISP Registry Information

Organization: Google Inc.
NetHandle: NET-209-85-128-0-1
NetName: GOOGLE
NetRange: 209.85.128.0 - 209.85.255.255
Designation: ARIN
Country: United States
IP Range: 209.85.128.0 - 209.85.255.255
Allocated: 2006-01-13

BGP Routing Information

Network: 209.85.210.0/24
Origin: AS15169
Organization: Google Inc.

 

[Carolinian]

Perhaps all this means is that they are investigating a way to answer all of your questions legally with the advice and help of the resorts' atty.

I certainly would think that any time, effort and money put into pulling lawyers into the situation would result in clearing up all of the questions and concerns voiced by owners.

The problem is that developer attorneys are just about quaranteed to come up with a load of crap as excuses for the illegal behavior of their client, excuses that would not fly in court.

This ''privacy'' crap that NEVS keeping spewing as his excuse to blatantly violate the corporate laws of his state is a good example. The membership list is the voting list for corporate meetings like the HOA annual meeting. To have a democratic meeting one has to be able to communicate with the voters. In the election process for government posts, any voter can go down and obtain the list of registered votes, with addresses and often phone numbers from the Board of Elections. The voting list for corporate elections is exactly the same. No ''privacy laws'' are going to prevail over the necessities of democracy.

Cliff is stonewalling and it is all about iron-fisted dictatorial control of the HOA, not about privacy. All a developer attorney would do is try to muddy the water to help him continue to stonewall.

 

[ecwinch]

found the following by putting 209.85.210.204 in the address bar.

IP Address: 209.85.210.204
Hostname: mail-yx0-f204.google.com

Location Information

City: Mountain View
Region: California
Country: United States
Postal: 94043
Lat/Long: 37.4192 -122.0574

ISP Registry Information

Organization: Google Inc.
NetHandle: NET-209-85-128-0-1
NetName: GOOGLE
NetRange: 209.85.128.0 - 209.85.255.255
Designation: ARIN
Country: United States
IP Range: 209.85.128.0 - 209.85.255.255
Allocated: 2006-01-13

BGP Routing Information

Network: 209.85.210.0/24
Origin: AS15169
Organization: Google Inc.

Sou13 - I am assuming that you obtained the IP address from the internet header from an e-mail that you received. That is just telling you the IP address of the originating e-mail server. In this case a Google server for gmail.

 

[Sou13]

So which is the IP

You are correct. I don't know how to find the IP address! Please advise!

 

[TUGBrian]

its not something you can readily obtain from an email.

 

[Sou13]

Untruths and misrepresentations

Then all the IP addresses I've posted are "untruths" and "misrepresentations"!

 

[Sou13]

Only 8 "gold" weeks?

On April 24, 2009, NEVMSLLC posted this (#494):

If you own a week 26 - 34 at Southcape, you come every year. If you're a member of a regular exchange, you never really know. It depends on what's deposited at the time you make your request. There are too many variables to give definitive answers. The advantage with point is that there is a set value for weeks 26 -34 and, when you make your exchange request, if one is available and you have enough points, your exchange is confirmed instantly. Even if you don't have enough points, you can usually rent extra points for a nominal fee to use to make an exchange. With points, the guess work and mystery is taken out of the exchange. If you have the points needed, you're going, if you don't you're not. What points does is commoditize the timeshare market so that relative values of weeks are exposed and transparent to everyone. No more "well, some red time is more valuable than other red time". Every week at every resort has a fixed value which makes the exchange much easier and harder for salespeople to mislead you.

I love points!

Just remember, no exchange can give you a week unless and until an owner deposits that week with the exchange company!​

This means that only 8 weeks are fixed "gold" weeks at Southcape Resort. Which means that all the remaining weeks are "float" weeks and can be reserved for the following year only when the float week owner has used the week reserved in any given year.

I took NEVMSLLC at his word on this one but that means that the Labor Day weekend is a "float" week which is a complete surprise to me.

My point in bringing this up is that I went through all the Southcape weeks that have been converted to Festiva points and found only 30 fixed summer weeks out of 200 converted weeks as of 7/07/09.

I am concerned that Festiva Adventure Club members may not be held to the same rules of reserving "float" weeks that we deeded float week owners must observe. Every owner who converted to Festiva points would have reserved a week for 2009 which is the actual week that should be available for Festiva points if FAC members are held to the same rules as deeded "float" week owners.

I have before me the FAC points chart for Southcape Resort and see that weeks 27-36 (10 weeks) are "gold" weeks requiring 4800 points, which is all that deeded owners of weeks 27-36 are being offered in exchange for $3185, and instead of paying MF of $593.88 to Southcape Resort, they have to pay more than $700 MF to Festiva Adventure Club!

Furthermore, there is no guarantee that the MFs for FAC members won't go up, or that the # of points needed to stay at a Festiva Resort won't increase. I was told that the MF for 3500 FAC points would be $575 but it turned out to be $602 for 2009.

I'm posting this because I had a telephone message today from a Southcape owner who is upset about being asked to convert deeded Southcape weeks to FAC points. I have yet to return her call but hope that she will read this post.

 

[Classylassy523]

MF?

When you use MF ... does that mean membership fee or maintenance fee?

 

[Sou13]

MF = Maintenance Fee, SA = Special Assessment

 

[ecwinch]

On April 24, 2009, NEVMSLLC posted this (#494):

This means that only 8 weeks are fixed "gold" weeks at Southcape Resort. Which means that all the remaining weeks are "float" weeks and can be reserved for the following year only when the float week owner has used the week reserved in any given year.

I took NEVMSLLC at his word on this one but that means that the Labor Day weekend is a "float" week which is a complete surprise to me.

My point in bringing this up is that I went through all the Southcape weeks that have been converted to Festiva points and found only 30 fixed summer weeks out of 200 converted weeks as of 7/07/09.

I am concerned that Festiva Adventure Club members may not be held to the same rules of reserving "float" weeks that we deeded float week owners must observe. Every owner who converted to Festiva points would have reserved a week for 2009 which is the actual week that should be available for Festiva points if FAC members are held to the same rules as deeded "float" week owners.

Furthermore, there is no guarantee that the MFs for FAC members won't go up, or that the # of points needed to stay at a Festiva Resort won't increase.

I do not have the Festiva membership documents, but all the documents for points based systems that I have seen, have a provision that the number of points allocated for a week or season cannot change. Most state regulations require similar protections.

For instance for my WorldMark membership, the number of credits required for a 2BR summer week at x resort will always be x credits.

It should be checked, but I would speculate that Festiva has something similar.

And anything is possible, but I do not see how FAC pts would have an advantage over weeks owners. The only advantage might be that FAC could be more aggressive in reserving inventory. They might be more systematic about it. FAC can still only reserve only the number of float weeks that are deeded over to them.

And the number of gold weeks is 9, BTW. While 34-26 = 8, you need to count each week. The mathematical concept is called fence-posting.

If you need to build a 8 ft fence, with a post every foot, how many posts do you need? 9 - otherwise your fence does not have enough posts.

 

[Classylassy523]

How come you have to maintain something you no longer own?

MF = Maintenance Fee, SA = Special Assessment

How come a person who gives up his/her deeded week has to pay a Maintenance Fee? If they don't own anything to maintain, then why a fee?

Do these same people who have to maintain something they don't own also have to pay annual membership fees to Festiva, along with all the other fees they have to pay when they book a stay? Or does the maintenance fee for something they don't own cover the annual membership fee?

Are these maintenance fees directed to the resort where these people originally had deeded property, or is all the money thrown into one big pot and it is spent at any of the resorts that Festiva owns?

Is there a length of time that these people are required to belong to this points club? And, if they don't use the points do they still have to pay the maintenance fees on something that they don't own? Is there a contract for a specified length of time that they are required to pay fees?

I know that the resorts that Festiva actually own are few, so these same people who pay maintenance fees for something they don't own will have to pay membership fees to another entity like II or RCI if they want to trade their points for something else besides their resort ... and they will also have to pay additional fees for trading ... am I understanding this all correctly?

It just boggles my mind that people willingly GIVE away their deeded property, and on top of that, they willingly PAY to give it away, and then they are CHARGED maintenance fees for something that they no longer own. Sounds something like adding insult to injury from my standpoint.

But maybe I am confused and don't really have a clear picture of how all this works and what the advantages are over owning a deeded piece of property. Are there any guarantees? Are these people guaranteed that they will have a place to stay the week they want to stay somewhere, or is it 'first come, first serve'? And, God forbid, if Festiva goes belly up (when they get done paying court fees, fines and settlements, they just might drain the well dry) then what do these people have?

The more I think about this, the more questions I come up with. The whole thing is scary when you think about all the money people have committed themselves to and have nothing to show for it.

 

[e.bram]

Question:
Does the money Festiva collects go into a general account to pay their legal fees and the cost of fines. Someone should ask the Outfield rep when approached to convert.,

 

[ecwinch]

How come a person who gives up his/her deeded week has to pay a Maintenance Fee? If they don't own anything to maintain, then why a fee?

Do these same people who have to maintain something they don't own also have to pay annual membership fees to Festiva, along with all the other fees they have to pay when they book a stay? Or does the maintenance fee for something they don't own cover the annual membership fee?

Are these maintenance fees directed to the resort where these people originally had deeded property, or is all the money thrown into one big pot and it is spent at any of the resorts that Festiva owns?

The more I think about this, the more questions I come up with. The whole thing is scary when you think about all the money people have committed themselves to and have nothing to show for it.

Again speaking in generalitities, some else can fill in the specifics on Festiva.

When you deed your week over to Festiva it is placed into a trust for the beneficial use of all members of the FAC. FAC in turns then becomes responsible for paying the m/f to the resort for that week every year. To the resort, the fact that the week is in Festiva is really immaterial. Festiva just becomes a weeks owner at that point.

At the beginning of the year, FAC adds up all the m/f and special assessments for the weeks that are in the trust, and calculates what the membership fee will be for FAC members. In doing so it tacks on the fees for running FAC. Which is one problem, as you now are double-paying for administration - FAC admin and the Resort admin.

Yes, you will need to have an II or RCI membership to exchange with them. This is no change, as you would need the same if you were in FAC or just owned a week.

In terms of reservations, it typically is first come first served. Though you might have a priority window at your home resort that gives you a slight edge. Depends on how Festiva operates.

Since the deeded weeks are held in Trust, there is protection from Festiva going bankrupt. They do not own those weeks, the Trust does. They just administer the Trust.

Same on the duration of the program. Perhaps someone else will those parts in.

 

[Classylassy523]

Thanks

Thanks for the information Eric.

As it has been described ... these points systems are just another way to squeeze more money out of the pockets of people who have bought into the timeshare industry. No wonder there is such a bad taste for some people when you bring up timesharing in conversation.

Jean

 

[ecwinch]

Thanks for the information Eric.

As it has been described ... these points systems are just another way to squeeze more money out of the pockets of people who have bought into the timeshare industry. No wonder there is such a bad taste for some people when you bring up timesharing in conversation.

Jean

Well like most things, it is not as good or as bad as they seem.

I belong to two points systems (WorldMark and Wyndham). I think they are good products.

But no, I do not think the same about these mini-systems where developer is basically building a system out of deeds that are redeemed by weeks owners. Beyond the cost issues, I think they prey on scaring owners with desirable weeks to converting.

I think it is a just a gimmick designed to allow Cliff to convert his undesirable weeks into points that can be sold. He knows he cannot sell those weeks, but he can sure sell the points with the illusion of being able to reserve a prime summer week. But once people start realizing that it is impossible to exchange the points into a desirable week, then the fecal matter will hit the oscillating cooling device.

 

[Sou13]

I stand corrected

I stand corrected, Eric. Weeks 26-34 would be 9 weeks, not 8.

I hope everyone has noticed that I've provided a link to the points chart, but if you missed it, here it is again: Adventure Club Points Charts

Go to the chart for Southcape Resort and you will see that week 26 requires more than 4800 points. Week 26 in 2009 actually ENDED with the July 4th holiday (check-out time 10 a.m.)! As for NEVMSLLC's post that only weeks 26-34 are fixed weeks, that is truly an "untruth" and "misrepresentation" for Southcape Resort. There is some confusion over which weeks are "float" weeks and I hope to be able to clear this up.

Eric, I hope you're right about the Trust protecting owners' deeds if Festiva goes belly-up. My understanding is that Festiva can take over a week held in trust as soon as a member fails to pay MF for the year. http://www.festivaresorts.com/rules.pdf This may take a few months to accomplish but membership is for 40 years, not for life, and renewable in 10-year increments for which renewal has to be requested before the 40 years are up.

I don't know anything about RCI points or any other points systems but Festiva's is based on preying on ignorance and fear. I hope the AG can do something to put an end to it!

 

[Fig]

I stand corrected, Eric. Weeks 26-34 would be 9 weeks, not 8.

I hope everyone has noticed that I've provided a link to the points chart, but if you missed it, here it is again: Adventure Club Points Charts

Go to the chart for Southcape Resort and you will see that week 26 requires more than 4800 points. Week 26 in 2009 actually ENDED with the July 4th holiday (check-out time 10 a.m.)! As for NEVMSLLC's post that only weeks 26-34 are fixed weeks, that is truly an "untruth" and "misrepresentation" for Southcape Resort. There is some confusion over which weeks are "float" weeks and I hope to be able to clear this up.

Eric, I hope you're right about the Trust protecting owners' deeds if Festiva goes belly-up. My understanding is that Festiva can take over a week held in trust as soon as a member fails to pay MF for the year. http://www.festivaresorts.com/rules.pdf This may take a few months to accomplish but membership is for 40 years, not for life, and renewable in 10-year increments for which renewal has to be requested before the 40 years are up.

I don't know anything about RCI points or any other points systems but Festiva's is based on preying on ignorance and fear. I hope the AG can do something to put an end to it!

Sou13, you have been tireless in your efforts. Many of us have added a some research here and there, but you were the one that got this ball rolling. It looks like many owners have joined you in your efforts. May truth and ethics win out for all those involved,

 

[jannibaby]

The treatment of new posters with different opinions

I have been the owner of a week 27 unit at Southcape since 1983. My husband and I bought at Southcape to own a little piece of the Cape. We did not buy it to trade and have used it virtually every year since. I have not posted but have followed the discussion since the annual meeting. I have been hesitant to post for fear of being accused of being a shill for Cliff or being Cliff himself. I have corresponded privately with Sou13 and told her these concerns as well.

The last few pages of this thread have put me over the edge. The manner in which you are treating new posters who might have a different opinion is deplorable and is NOT helping your cause. Just because someone might have a different opinion than you or might be on the fence regarding posting a complaint to the attorney general does not make them villains.

For the record when we went to Southcape this year, we did see visible signs of improvement at Southcape for the first time in a number of years. The fact that this management is attempting to go after delinquent owners is more than what was done with the previous management. Sure I think something shady is going on. Yes, I am concerned that there are no "real owners" as trustees. But, I also feel that having this public an argument will only harm Southcape’s reputation for future traders or sellers.

I am sure that because of this post, I will now be labeled one of “them”. I am sure you will request to have my ip address confirmed. You will probably check out my facebook page to see if I’m friends with Cliff too. I just wanted you to know that there might be more people like me out there than you think, who might be so turned off by this that they will never support your cause. Heck, it's too bad because we might even have some valid and helpful ideas too.

Janice

 

[e.bram]

Janice: If you are OK with the developer using your MFs and SAs to fix up their units without contributing, that is your business, But you have aprime season week. Others will bail out if the costs get to high for off season weeks, especially with Festiva taking the pinker weeks for their points owners at he expence of the floating off season week owners(leaving the real dogs for these weesk owners). the managment along with Festiva have their fingers on the computer keyboard which assigns the weeks(non fixed). You will have to pick up the slack for the unpaid MFs and SAs. Good Luck.

 

[ecwinch]

I have been the owner of a week 27 unit at Southcape since 1983. My husband and I bought at Southcape to own a little piece of the Cape. We did not buy it to trade and have used it virtually every year since. I have not posted but have followed the discussion since the annual meeting. I have been hesitant to post for fear of being accused of being a shill for Cliff or being Cliff himself. I have corresponded privately with Sou13 and told her these concerns as well.

The last few pages of this thread have put me over the edge. The manner in which you are treating new posters who might have a different opinion is deplorable and is NOT helping your cause. Just because someone might have a different opinion than you or might be on the fence regarding posting a complaint to the attorney general does not make them villains.

For the record when we went to Southcape this year, we did see visible signs of improvement at Southcape for the first time in a number of years. The fact that this management is attempting to go after delinquent owners is more than what was done with the previous management. Sure I think something shady is going on. Yes, I am concerned that there are no "real owners" as trustees. But, I also feel that having this public an argument will only harm Southcape’s reputation for future traders or sellers.

I am sure that because of this post, I will now be labeled one of “them”. I am sure you will request to have my ip address confirmed. You will probably check out my facebook page to see if I’m friends with Cliff too. I just wanted you to know that there might be more people like me out there than you think, who might be so turned off by this that they will never support your cause. Heck, it's too bad because we might even have some valid and helpful ideas too.

Janice

Janice, in principle I agree with your post, and have expressed similar opinions on this thread. I am uncomfortable how this to going also.

But it has been verified that shills are being used to support and propagate the viewpoint of the developer.

Are you comfortable with the developer using shills to give the appearance that their are owners that disagree with owners becoming more concerned about how the resort is being run? If so, how would you suggest we address that issue?

And notice, there is a big difference between the depth and quality of your post, and those of the shills. The shills tend to make very short and one-sided statements. At least you have indicated some personal information. Usually the best we get from them is "I am a long time owner"... and then some direct personal attack or statement of how great Cliff is. No questions, or opinions on the issue at hand, just vague statements. If it is not Cliff, then it likely is someone from Outfield.

I think if you stick around and participate you will find TUG to be a great resource. I do agree that it is unfortunate that we feel forced to stoop to the level of the shills. I for one will try to cease doing that.

And yes, he is improving the resort. And in turn making his inventory that much more valuable, and he is not paying for those improvements either. Would you be comfortable if you learned that Sou was exempt from m/f?

And if he was paying m/f and assessments, think of how much less you would be paying. The numbers are not insignificant.

I do not see the benefit of giving him a free pass on those glaring injustices, just because he is improving the resort. I respect that you may feel otherwise. And in that regard your opinion is more important.

 

[Sou13]

Thank you, Janice!

In defense of Janice, we have been conversing via email since she learned from TUG that I had stayed in her unit. And yes, she has expressed to me that she felt that the atmosphere at the meeting was confrontational.

Since we haven't been getting annual meeting minutes in we don't seem to be able to recall how many years, I don't know when was the last time we had anywhere near 200 owners turn out for an annual meeting. They weren't all there because of my campaign on TUG! They came because of the telephone calls from Outfield Marketing and the Special Assessment of $400 due less than a month after the annual Maintenance Fee!

I witnessed firsthand that there were owners who like Janice were glad to see that some improvements are being made. I also witnessed that there were some owners who are so upset about the new owners that they would consider paying Outfield Marketing $3185 just to be rid of their deeds!

The problem isn't with Southcape Resort itself. As far as we know there has been no skimming of our annual contributions and the resort hasn't fallen into disrepair. Some nonowners have greater expectations from an exchange but they may have paid more for wherever they own. Southcape Resort is made up of a lot of families like Janice's who have looked forward to spending a week there every year, and are disappointed if they can't.

I haven't been rushing new posters to TUG to get on my elist ever since discovering how badly NEVMSLLC wants to know what our group is doing. I have a problem with the financial reports we were given and the meeting "minutes" that owners received in the mail because they weren't bona fida minutes and the financial reports need to be questioned. The minutes never reported that the owners voted for an audit but that it was only an advisory vote because, according to Cliff Hagberg, there was no quorum present.

I'm in contact with owners privately and have some things to report but would rather see another post from Janice and am still waiting for a reply from bhound54.

 

[bhound54]

reply ? (also Janice, AG)

Hello Sou13,

I'm posting this message publicly because you don't have mailbox space for a private reply.

What kind of reply were you anticipating?

BTW, I agree with Janice's post. Also, I might consider a letter to the AG (that current management is not adhering to the master deed) but your sample related to Sandcastle, not Southcape. What are the features of the Master Deed that you would like to compel management to comply?

- bhound54