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[2008] Southcape Resort

NEVMSLLC

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I'm no longer answering questions on TUG. Every time I do, I'm vilified and flamed. I get called a "thief", a "liar", a "crook", etc. I'm told that people won't believe me no matter what I say, even if it's the truth. I've even been accused of committing crimes by people who don't know what they're talking about, do not have any facts to back up their accusations and don't realized the implications of their statements. I've been accused of pretending to be other people when I'm not and there's no way I can prove I'm not someone any more than someone can prove they're not a child molester. I don't know how to prove a negative. I've been personally attacked and libeled. I've had private communications from me published on TUG. I've seen confidential resort information published on TUG.

There is no point in my answering questions when I'm told I won't be believed no matter what I say. I will always respond to owners and answer their questions. As I've said, I do expect that confidential communications remain confidential. I don't think that's too much to ask.

What we have here is not reasonable discourse between people who may have opposing viewpoints. What we have here is diatribe and vitriol of the basest sort and I choose not to participate in it any longer.

Any Southcape owner that has questions can reach me at nevmsllc@gmail.com

Cliff
 

timeos2

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A strong, owner controlled Board is always the best

The more members you get the cheaper the cost per member. If you don't hire a lawyer and fight it will cost you more assessments and MF increases in the future.

100 owners at $200 each would give you $20,000 to put in a retainer. 50 owners at $400 each would do the same thing. The lawsuit we filed against our board at a resort on the Gulf Coast cost our plaintiff group about $20,000, but we did prevail in court and stopped the board from rebuilding against the owners wishes. If we had not hired an attorney we would have been paying estimated 6000 per week in assessments. We had to pay $500 per week owned to fight the board with the few owners we could assemble to join our plaintiff group. We could have lowered the cost drastically if we could have contacted all of the owners, but the board refused to release the owner's list to us just as Cliff refuses to give it to you.The HOA's and developers don't ever want you to be able to contact all the owners to tell them what is going on because they know that they would have major problems if all owners were told the true situation rather than the lies told by the developers in the "newsletters" and in the annual meeting. You must fight this thing and you can't hire a lawyer for free.

To save your resort many of you are going to have to contribute some of your own money to a legal fund, and some of you are going to have to contribute a lot of personal time and effort in addition to money. To do anything less is to surrender and let Cliff/Outfield/Festiva/NEVMS do what ever they want at your resort including frequent assessments and large annual MF increases. You can pay the lawyer now or pay the crooks at NEVMS/Cliff/Festiva for as long as you own at your resort.

Using two resorts I'm very familiar with, both of which have had experience with Developer issues of management and control as well as Bankruptcies, the power and ability of a strong owners BOD to prevail against even the largest developers is always there. You need individuals who are willing to put the resort operation at a level of their own home, put aside internal issues and unite to gain the owners trust as well as critical financial support.

At one it occurred long before the Internet was king. Thankfully much of the ownership was basically local and could attend meetings, see the resort first hand and understood what was at stake. They were also blessed with a great developer who themselves were hurt by banks and rival developers that forced things into a bankruptcy. The resort suffered for 5 years and spent plenty of legal fees but that dedicated group (there was always a majority of Owners on the Board) fought it out, got things back on track and ultimately turned it around. Two special assessments later the resort is financially solid but unbelievably is STILL working to settle on a block of ownership that remains in question nearly 15 years from when it started! To say it takes time is putting it mildly. Now the annual meeting draws less than 500 people - used to be well over 1000 - due to the improvements made and an aging base of ownership. Everyone appreciates what that Board and the management has done there and it will never be allowed to return to the bad times from what I see.

The other was more recent - 2001 - and it too has a happy ending. Thankfully despite attempts for the developer to maintain control and management they had correctly turned the Board majority to the owners in 1998. They had made moves they felt would keep them in an unassailable spot as management through contracts signed by the outgoing, Developer controlled Board that basically tied the hands of the new Board to make changes. They also handled legal interpretations for the Board, had the Auditors, who appeared independent on the surface, tied to multiple long term agreements at many resorts to "simplify" reporting, had an unbelievable web of associated companies supplying services such as phone, cable TV, laundry, insurance, etc that all carried a significant yet buried commission as well as management fees of over $1 million/year! It was a sweet deal and took years to unravel.

By 2001 the Board had waited out the worst of the agreements (the overall management contract) and both openly and behind the scenes worked to find out what the options were to the current situation before simply moving ahead with a renewal of the contract as the Developer had assumed. At the same moment in time the Developer went into self inflicted bankruptcy and tried to separate the management side from the sales side to their benefit. They also sued Association over any change and pulled out all the stops to make it hard to defend against them by holding cases in other state and even Federal courts, using the shield of bankruptcy to eliminate possible changes, etc.

By then the Internet was a strong presence and thanks to that - using email, web sites, users groups and more - the HOA Board was able to stir up interest and inform owners as to what was happening. Plus having the Board majority allowed them to put out sanctioned newsletters not of the usual fluff but serious missives about the need to fight and why there was a BIG special assessment to support it. But even then the Developer withheld the owners list and had to be forced by the Courts to mail the newsletter. It was a really intense period that ended only when the Board used over $200,000 of Association money to make it clear they would not back down. A settlement was reached and today there are few if any resorts with a stronger bottom line, a better ongoing working relationship with the Developer or an owner base more involved or well informed. Again it was the efforts of a strong owner BOD - in this case with members spread all over the country - that placed the good of the resort FAR above their personal views and gave freely of their time and effort to make it happen. These are after all volunteers - they cannot be paid - and they fought it like they were being threatened with the loss of their home.

I know John Cummings had a similar group of dedicated Board members at his southern California resort(s) that also beat back some of the largest developers not once but twice! That doesn't happen by accident or by wringing your hands in defeat but by rallying owners anyway possible and showing results. We also met 5 Boards in Arizona who did the same, there were the folks at Bluebeards - the list goes on. You don't always hear about the successes here and there are many others that have simply and understandably given up in the face of the Developer onslaught, but it can and has been done with enough effort.

I really hope this group has a strong BOD and will do what is necessary to regain control and make the resort work for the owners. The very fact that it is a lively thread here and that things are happening means they have the chance to succeed. Keep it alive and best of luck to you all.
 
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AwayWeGo

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[triennial - points]
Whoa -- Sounds Like We Missed Out On Plenty Of Excitement.

A settlement was reached and today there are few if any resorts with a stronger bottom line, a better ongoing working relationship with the Developer or an owner base more involved or well informed.
Shux, we didn't get into timesharing till a year or so after the dust settled from all that.

We obviously missed out on a major serious timeshare management fuss & kerfuffle.

Hats off to the HOA-BOD members who hung in & prevailed.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

tombo

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. I'm told that people won't believe me no matter what I say, even if it's the truth.

Cliff

If only people knew when it was the truth. Are you talking about telling the truth like when you posted I am not Capeguitarguy, Outfield doesn't have an address in Texas, I don't do business with Outfield because it would be innappropriate, I have been an owner at Southscape for decades, if Outfield is using deceptive sales tecniques I will handle it, Outfield is selling the unsold inventory, I am selling the unsold inventory, no one is selling the unsold inventory because of restraints placed by the mtge holder, and other truths that are similar to those truths? After those and many other truths it is hard to evaluate what is true, even if it's the truth.

You will be missed. I will say Hi every now and then in case you are among us. :wave:
 

ecwinch

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Not necessarily. A lower court order will be enforced unless it is stayed pending appeal. The issue, in most courts, at least, should be so clear cut that there would be no stay and the court order to turn over the lists would be enforced pending the appeal.

Secondly, the governance of these resorts is so murky that there may be an opportunty to sue Cliff or NEVS without naming the HOA as a defendant, and if so the money issue changes dramatically.

It has been stayed pending appeal. The case is Worldmark v Miller in Superior Court - County of Sacramento. Case # 2008-00025130.

Anything is possible. Meaningful action is another thing.

And you know that BoD/Trustees are protected from suit in most cases like this. Courts have recognized that service on a BoD of a non-profit affords greater legal protection due to the voluntary nature of the service.

See Wixon v Wyndham Resorts in 3rd US District court, where the WorldMark BoD has been brought into the case. Again the HOA is paying the BoD legal fees, though the BoD members were brought into the case individually.
 

ecwinch

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I really hope this group has a strong BOD and will do what is necessary to regain control and make the resort work for the owners. The very fact that it is a lively thread here and that things are happening means they have the chance to succeed. Keep it alive and best of luck to you all.

I agree and definitely believe that a strong group of dedicated owners that are able to mobilize the dis-interested majority and are willing to see things through will prevail in the end. But those efforts typically span years, rather than weeks or months.

So a group of like minded owners should have realistic expectations on the potential duration and effort required to see it through.

I have not seen a quick victory in any of the mentioned cases of which I have studied. Nor one that overturns a pending assessment or spike in m/f.
 

ecwinch

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I'm no longer answering questions on TUG. Every time I do, I'm vilified and flamed. I get called a "thief", a "liar", a "crook", etc. I'm told that people won't believe me no matter what I say, even if it's the truth. I've even been accused of committing crimes by people who don't know what they're talking about, do not have any facts to back up their accusations and don't realized the implications of their statements. I've been accused of pretending to be other people when I'm not and there's no way I can prove I'm not someone any more than someone can prove they're not a child molester. I don't know how to prove a negative. I've been personally attacked and libeled. I've had private communications from me published on TUG. I've seen confidential resort information published on TUG.

There is no point in my answering questions when I'm told I won't be believed no matter what I say. I will always respond to owners and answer their questions. As I've said, I do expect that confidential communications remain confidential. I don't think that's too much to ask.

What we have here is not reasonable discourse between people who may have opposing viewpoints. What we have here is diatribe and vitriol of the basest sort and I choose not to participate in it any longer.

Any Southcape owner that has questions can reach me at nevmsllc@gmail.com

Cliff

I think you have finally said something that I agree with. But in defense of the spewers of diatribe and vitriol, that condition was borne from frustration of the answers and non-answers you provided.

You cannot have reasonable discourse, when one party picks and choses which points they wish to have discourse on, to the exclusion of topics that are of the most concern.

That is not discourse, that is you using this platform to make speeches and disseminate propaganda.
 

e.bram

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Hopefully the next chance Cliff will get to answer questions will be interrogatories, depositions and on the witness stand. If he dissembles there he will be in deep doo doo.
 

tombo

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Hopefully the next chance Cliff will get to answer questions will be interrogatories, depositions and on the witness stand. If he dissembles there he will be in deep doo doo.

Cliff will subpoena Cape, Viv, MFweinstein, and Massman to be character witnesses. They love him and the job he is doing.
 
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Carolinian

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Any protection for BoD members does not extend to selfdealing and conflict of interest. Indeed, every HOA I am aware of carries Directors Liability insurance for this very reason. From what I read on these boards, for Cliff's sake, I hope his policy is paid up. Most Directors Liablility policies include coverage for legal fees. It is negligent for a BoD to use HOA funds for legal fees when they could be paid by insurance. I suspect that a developer would try to keep insurance attorneys out of it, because attorneys paid by an insurance company would be looking to setttle and give up Worldmark's totally assinine position.


It has been stayed pending appeal. The case is Worldmark v Miller in Superior Court - County of Sacramento. Case # 2008-00025130.

Anything is possible. Meaningful action is another thing.

And you know that BoD/Trustees are protected from suit in most cases like this. Courts have recognized that service on a BoD of a non-profit affords greater legal protection due to the voluntary nature of the service.

See Wixon v Wyndham Resorts in 3rd US District court, where the WorldMark BoD has been brought into the case. Again the HOA is paying the BoD legal fees, though the BoD members were brought into the case individually.
 

Carolinian

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On the NC Outer Banks, the First Flight cases varied. The Dunes South case went all the way to the state Supreme Court, with the owners whipping the developer in court at every stage. The Ocean Villas II case was filed at the trail court level, but settled by total surrender of the developer before it ever went to trial. Ocean Villas I and Hatteras High settled with total developer surrender before the cases were even filed.

A later situation at Dunes South, where a management company got a subsequnet board under its thumb, took several years to get a board majority to kick the management company out. The key was getting the membership list to run proxy campaigns. Getting the list was not that difficult. A lawyer who was a member of the Concerned Owners Group made a formal demand for it, the management company tried to stonewall, so he directed his demand again at the management company's attorney, who knew they did not have a leg to stand on in court and so turned it over.

In two of the First Flight cases, they concerned owners did not know initially that they could get the list by demanding it. They got it through a disgruntled employee of the developer who copied it and gave it to them. That was enought to organize and take over the HOA boards.

Sometimes, getting state regulatory authorities involved can work. Usually, as in North Carolina, it is the Real Estate Commission. Bodie Island Beach Club had an original developer who had sold his remaining inventory, ''developer rights'', and management contract to a subsequnet developer. Among things the subsequnet developer was claiming was that the did not have to pay m/f's on his weeks. The Real Estate Commission opened a formal investigatoin on Bodie Island Beach Club, and when the smoke cleared, the subsequnet developer had lost his management contract, timeshare weeks, and even his real estate license. In that situation, the Real Estate Commission compelled the subsequent developer to turn over the membership list durng the early stages of the investigation.


I agree and definitely believe that a strong group of dedicated owners that are able to mobilize the dis-interested majority and are willing to see things through will prevail in the end. But those efforts typically span years, rather than weeks or months.

So a group of like minded owners should have realistic expectations on the potential duration and effort required to see it through.

I have not seen a quick victory in any of the mentioned cases of which I have studied. Nor one that overturns a pending assessment or spike in m/f.
 
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tombo

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I agree and definitely believe that a strong group of dedicated owners that are able to mobilize the dis-interested majority and are willing to see things through will prevail in the end. But those efforts typically span years, rather than weeks or months.

So a group of like minded owners should have realistic expectations on the potential duration and effort required to see it through.

I have not seen a quick victory in any of the mentioned cases of which I have studied. Nor one that overturns a pending assessment or spike in m/f.

Our case against the board at our timeshare resort took about a year and a half from when we hired our attorney to where they settled in court. There were times of activity just before court and when they took depositions and contacted us with questions and strategies, and then there were long periods of nothing happening. It was the only law suit experience I have ever had and it can get frustrating. The board fought us all the way with their attorney's fees paid from the resort's funds. It is very maddening to pay your own money for legal fees to fight them while they pay nothing personally to defend themselves, but you have no choice. Was it fun, no. Would I do it again? You bet your sweet aXX!

Win or lose you won't be just laying down and taking it. Fight them in court, using the AG, using the state real estate commisssion. Use everything you can and you will win. If you don't hire an attorney and just sit back hoping things will get better, you have already lost.
 

tombo

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Post 748 from July 13th

Hi CiC3

5. Wireless internet is installed but not working throughout the resort. We are still waiting for Comcast to update their wiring and are chasing them every week. Other than that, it's all set and I apologize for not having it ready for you.

Cliff

As of July 13th the wireless internet wasn't working yet at the resort per Cliff. The new fake posters are claiming that all who joined TUG with the same IP as Cliff di so because the wireless internet router would have given all the same IP addrees. Well MFwienstin, Vivmarch, Massman, and Capeguitarguy all joined tug using the same IP address as Cliff. That means that they were in Cliff's home using Cliff's cmputer. Even more amazing is that when Vivmarch joined tug as a guest she had the same IP address as Cliff even though she states that she didn't use the internet the whole time she was on vacation because she has a family rule against it.

Cliff, the more you spin tales, the more you get caught. Are you not embarassed yet?

Post number 701 posted Jly 8th as a new Guest:

I have just returned from a great week at Southcape (even though the weather didn't always cooperate!) and discovered this site.

What are you all going on about??

I have been staying at Southcape for the last nine years and this year noticed that the place was in a much better condition than it has been in all those years. And I understand from the staff that there are some further upgrades still in progress. I think it's great as any improvements to Southcape protect my initial investment. I've seen several timeshare resorts in other parts of the country that have been allowed to fall into disrepair and I would be very upset if I owned one of them!

So what's going on?

Post 784 from july 16th:
I have no idea as I didn't think to ask. The woman in the unit next to us originally asked me if I'd heard of the site, which I hadn't. A day or so later when we bumped into her and her husband in the parking lot her husband mentioned if we'd looked at the site yet. I told him we hadn't because we were on vacation with the kids and we have the rule of no video games, computer or tv whilst on vacation (which I could enforce that the rest of the year too), but I'd probably take look when we got home. The rest is history.



Vivmarch joined on July 8th using the same IP address as Cliff (post 701). Cliff hoped smetime after the 13th of July that the wireless internet would be working. Viv says she waited till she got home to respond because she has a rule of no computers while on vacation. There is no way she could have gone home, joined TUG as a guest, and had the same IP address as Cliff. What is being explained here is implausible if not impossible. The only believable explanation is the posts are Cliff.
 
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tombo

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BHOUND54 joined July 10 in post 714

MFWEINSTEIN joined July 10th in post 719

VIVMARCH loined July 8th

MASSMAN joined on Feb 16th

All joined TUG before the 13th when Cliff posted that the internet wasn't working yet. All used one of Cliff's IP addresses, and all did so before the wireless internet was working, and one (Viv) used Cliff's IP address after she returned home.

What a tangled web we weave when first we begin to deceive.
 
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TUGBrian

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Just to clarify, as I understood it the internet access provided at this resort is claimed to be comcast no?

there have only been 4 different blocks of ip addresses used by all of the posters here.

173. - comcast
24. - comcast
72. - verizon
68. - verizon


im not sure if the little computer icon shows up at the bottom left hand corner of each post for regular users as it does for administrators, but if so its an easy way to check who posted what and when.

I want to settle this once and for all since my "ethics" have now been brought into question, and I dont care for that much.
 

Fig

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Just to clarify, as I understood it the internet access provided at this resort is claimed to be comcast no?

there have only been 4 different blocks of ip addresses used by all of the posters here.

173. - comcast
24. - comcast
72. - verizon
68. - verizon


im not sure if the little computer icon shows up at the bottom left hand corner of each post for regular users as it does for administrators, but if so its an easy way to check who posted what and when.

I want to settle this once and for all since my "ethics" have now been brought into question, and I dont care for that much.

Can't seem to see what you are referring to...can you provide a screen shot?
 

TUGBrian

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probably not available to regular users, its right next tot he orange "report this post" triangle at the bottom left hand corner of each post.

see attachment
 

Attachments

  • ip.jpg
    ip.jpg
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Fig

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Question for Brian

If Vivmarch were "home' posting as she claims after vacationing at the resort...how close would home have to be? A few hundred feet away from the resort at most?

Thanks!
 

TUGBrian

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I have just returned from a great week at Southcape (even though the weather didn't always cooperate!) and discovered this site.

What are you all going on about??

I have been staying at Southcape for the last nine years and this year noticed that the place was in a much better condition than it has been in all those years. And I understand from the staff that there are some further upgrades still in progress. I think it's great as any improvements to Southcape protect my initial investment. I've seen several timeshare resorts in other parts of the country that have been allowed to fall into disrepair and I would be very upset if I owned one of them!

So what's going on?


so according to this post, the poster is not in the resort but instead returned home. this post was recieved from a 72.85.x.x verizon ip.

this ip has been used to post by:

nevmsllc
ginnyb60
wfeinstien

this ip address is also the registration ip address of:

ginnyb60
wfweinstein


hope this clears my name and or "ethics" issues.
 

ecwinch

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Our case against the board at our timeshare resort took about a year and a half from when we hired our attorney to where they settled in court. There were times of activity just before court and when they took depositions and contacted us with questions and strategies, and then there were long periods of nothing happening. It was the only law suit experience I have ever had and it can get frustrating. The board fought us all the way with their attorney's fees paid from the resort's funds. It is very maddening to pay your own money for legal fees to fight them while they pay nothing personally to defend themselves, but you have no choice. Was it fun, no. Would I do it again? You bet your sweet aXX!

Win or lose you won't be just laying down and taking it. Fight them in court, using the AG, using the state real estate commisssion. Use everything you can and you will win. If you don't hire an attorney and just sit back hoping things will get better, you have already lost.

We can disagree. I do not see going to court or just lying down as being the only options.

I think a concerned owner group can accomplish a lot without having to go to court. And then if you do end up in court, and you have crossed your tees/dotted your i's, then you should have a pretty good case file to establish a pattern of actions.

JMO - rushing to the courthouse without such documentation would be problematic.
 

ecwinch

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so according to this post, the poster is not in the resort but instead returned home. this post was recieved from a 72.85.x.x verizon ip.

this ip has been used to post by:

nevmsllc
ginnyb60
wfeinstien

this ip address is also the registration ip address of:

ginnyb60
wfweinstein


hope this clears my name and or "ethics" issues.

Probably just neighbors or roommates. Or maybe they all hang out at the same Starbux....
 

Carolinian

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Just noticed in your list of resorts that you own one that has been a victim of a similar scam outfit, Club Leisure Group of ''Froggy'' Lamont in South Africa. I was sorry to see what happened at The Seapointer. Of course, Lamont is currently going after Dikhololo.

I agree with you about research. It is better for owners to do as much of that as they can to keep their legal costs down. Some background legal advice, even before the lawyer gets openly involved will be helpful.

You need to formally organize your group and build your membership. Take your core groups and have them solicit others to join when they are at the resort for their week. Have them go around and get contact info from other like minded owners.


We can disagree. I do not see going to court or just lying down as being the only options.

I think a concerned owner group can accomplish a lot without having to go to court. And then if you do end up in court, and you have crossed your tees/dotted your i's, then you should have a pretty good case file to establish a pattern of actions.

JMO - rushing to the courthouse without such documentation would be problematic.
 

tombo

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so according to this post, the poster is not in the resort but instead returned home. this post was recieved from a 72.85.x.x verizon ip.

this ip has been used to post by:

nevmsllc
ginnyb60
wfeinstien

this ip address is also the registration ip address of:

ginnyb60
wfweinstein


hope this clears my name and or "ethics" issues.

Thanks Brian!

Vimarch said in her post that she didn't make a post or join while she was at the resort. However the same IP address she used has been used by NEVSMLLC,Ginnyb60,MFweinstein, and herself. This means that Cliff (NEVMSLLC), Ginnyb60 (also Cliff), and WFweinstein (once again Cliff) all went to Viv's house to post comments, and ginny and MFwienstein went to Viv's house to register as TUG guests.

It gets even more ridiculous for Cliff to defend himself or defend a fake owner using one of his many aliases. Ginnyb60 joined on july 8th, and so did Vivmarch. Since Vivmarch in her post said that she didn't log onto TUG to join or post until she returned home from her vacation, and she joined on July 8th, Ginnyb60 would have had to have joined at Vivmarch's house because they both posted from the same IP address. I am sure that we are about to get a post saying they are both friends because the lies and excuses just keep on coming. Before you know it they will all live next door to each other and use Viv's wireless.

We have educated Cliff a lot. I doubt that he will stop making fake posts, but he will probably find new IP addresses to post from. Nobody can believe anything he says or does, and after all of the bogus activity perpetrated by him here on TUG I would have a hard time ever believing anyone who defended Cliff (other than his spouse) after they had read these threads. In fact I bet Festiva and Outfield are having a fit if they have been following his posts because he is making himself seem crazy IMO.

I will say this, whether it is drugs, ego, or pathological lying, these threads (Southscape, Sandcastle) have become threads unlike any threads I have read before here on TUG. I doubt any future threads could compare to these with regards to bizarre actions from a developer. It has been educational, entertaining, and extremelly scary for the owners at these resorts since they have gotten a glimpse of what they are dealing with.
 
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Sou13

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My concerns

Since NEVMSLLC is no longer replying to concerns raised here, even by Southcape owners, I emailed him mine. His reply to me is that, given the fact that I have publicly and privately accused the trustees of criminal activity, the matter has been turned over to legal counsel.

Now whose attorney is providing this legal counsel? If it's the resort's attorney, we deeded owners are paying for it!
 
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