[2008] Southcape Resort

[ecwinch]

Now Eric you know better than to assume. I mentioned no names and questioned no one. I simply don't want SOU giving all of his information to his opponent. It would be very hard to win a football game if one coach accidentally told the other team the plays they were going to use and the strategy they would be implementing before the game even began.

I still feel that there are a couple of more posters that were Cliff who haven't been named yet. So far my suspicions have proven 100% to be correct. If I had not questioned the others we might still be talking to Viv, Massman,weinstein, etc. as though they were real. There is no way that one couldn't have doubts since Cliff did use many different aliases that we know of. It is not unreasonable to believe that he might be using or will in the future use others.

Actually the whole "keep the game plan secret" is rarely effective. In most football games, the other side knows exactly what you are going to run and what your general strategy will be. It is more about execution. Sure you can mix it up a little, but the majority of your actions are the bread and butter plays you rely on heavily.

The same holds true in situations like this. I think we are to brainwashed by watching the legal shows where the attorney whips out some key information that was unknown to the opposition and wins the case. Real life is not like that. Cliff knowing that he failed to change the BoD directors is not a material event, and is easily corrected. It is not the magic bullet that would cause him to change.

Who cares under what alias Cliff posts under. You evaluate each post based on the merits of the content, not who it is from. Cliff just as easily could have all the NEVS employees post here. Lets not begin presuming facts that are not in evidence.

 

[Fig]

Cliff basically did himself in here

I dunno, I kinda feel sorry for him. He used to say "Google me" when I was posting all this unflattering stuff I was finding about Festiva and Outfield on the thread. I did and I did not find anything negative. Now he has a lasting testimony sitting on the web that puts him right in with the most deplorable tactics of Festiva and Outfield Marketing. Anyone who Googles "Cliff Hagberg" is likely to find this thread...no doubt the story has been circulated among the Southcape and Sandcastle e-lists and will be passed to owners who do not yet know Cliff---his friends in the industry will have access to it. People who try to buy real esate through IVS will have access to it. I am glad he came here to answer questions...gave folks an opportunity to get a larger picture. Just sad that he had to resort to contradictions and fake identities to explain himself...but I guess that is part of the picture. If he wants to waste time with more fake identities, let him. He's done far more damage to his rep and cause than a boatload of identies could prop up. Just my silly opinion.

Cathy

 

[tombo]

Actually the whole "keep the game plan secret" is rarely effective. In most football games, the other side knows exactly what you are going to run and what your general strategy will be. It is more about execution. Sure you can mix it up a little, but the majority of your actions are the bread and butter plays you rely on heavily.



Who cares under what alias Cliff posts under. You evaluate each post based on the merits of the content, not who it is from. Cliff just as easily could have all the NEVS employees post here. Lets not begin presuming facts that are not in evidence.

My team led every regular season game in the first half by a large margin because none were prepared for the surprises thrown their way. After half time we were outscored by several teams because they adjusted to the game plan we were running, but they didn't have time to adjust and win. We won all of our close games by outscoring opponents in the first half. Had they have been prepared for our game plan in the first half as they were in the second, we would have had several victories turned into losses. The legal analogy might not work exactly, but in Football often times the surprise strategies make the difference.

You want to evaluate each post based on the merits of it's content? If the post is made by Cliff the developer pretending to be a happy owner, what merit does that content have? If the content of a post is lies with no substance, what points are worth discussing? If Cliff got employees to post lies here, it would still be deceitful posts made under false pretenses with bogus content. What could totally false posts possibly add to the thread or to anyone's understanding except to let everyone understand that there is little if anything that they won't do or say to sell timeshare points. I guess at least the understanding we can all come to is that the combination of NEVS/Outfield/Festiva/Cliff can not be believed no matter what you are told because they lie.These are not presumptions, the lies he got caught in have been documented as facts beyond any reasonable doubt.

If Cliff came here tomorrow and apologized for each and every lie, I could not possibly believe that his apology was sincere. Now even after being caught red handed, no apologies so far. My opinion is that he doesn't feel bad about a single lie he has perpetrated on TUG or anywhere else, all he feels bad about is getting caught.

 

[ecwinch]

My team led every regular season game in the first half by a large margin because none were prepared for the surprises thrown their way. After half time we were outscored by several teams because they adjusted to the game plan we were running, but they didn't have time to adjust and win. We won all of our close games by outscoring opponents in the first half. Had they have been prepared for our game plan in the first half as they were in the second, we would have had several victories turned into losses. The legal analogy might not work exactly, but in Football often times the surprise strategies make the difference.

You want to evaluate each post based on the merits of it's content? If the post is made by Cliff the developer pretending to be a happy owner, what merit does that content have? If the content of a post is lies with no substance, what points are worth discussing? If Cliff got employees to post lies here, it would still be deceitful posts made under false pretenses with bogus content. What could totally false posts possibly add to the thread or to anyone's understanding except to let everyone understand that there is little if anything that they won't do or say to sell timeshare points. I guess at least the understanding we can all come to is that the combination of NEVS/Outfield/Festiva/Cliff can not be believed no matter what you are told because they lie.These are not presumptions, the lies he got caught in have been documented as facts beyond any reasonable doubt.

If Cliff came here tomorrow and apologized for each and every lie, I could not possibly believe that his apology was sincere. Now even after being caught red handed, no apologies so far. My opinion is that he doesn't feel bad about a single lie he has perpetrated on TUG or anywhere else, all he feels bad about is getting caught.

I think we are digressing, but until Cliff returns, I am not sure what else there is to discuss. So....

I evaluate the post on the content. A million fake or real owners could have appeared here with glowing stories of the changes made. It would not have changed my opinion of the situation.

And while you were correct about Viv, I think you have to admit that you just as easily could have been wrong. And in the scheme of things, what would have been the consequences of you being wrong? Alienating another owner? Turning someone off to TUG completely? Someone who could in turn have turned numerous other people off to TUG? And think of all the people who might have read your posts to his aliases. How do you think they viewed them? Do the potential consequences of your actions outweigh the benefit realized by exposing the deception? And keep in mind it was Cliff that caused the deception to be revealed.

But, that is a decision for you to make. Having been burnt once in a similar situation, I prefer to give a "suspect" poster the benefit of the doubt, until they clearly show themselves. In the interim I internally discount their posts unless they contain some material new information.

Secondly, I do not follow Bama football. But I doubt that your team's game plan was drastically different from game to game. Yes, all teams tailor their plan to exploit the perceived weaknesses of the other team. And at half-time, most teams make adjustments based on what is effective. But a running team is generally a running team, and they usually run the same plays. Same with a passing team.

Rarely do you see a team come out and adopt a completely different strategy, and win. I mean where a wishbone team suddenly adopts a pro-style passing game. Strategy is more about what area of your strengths are you going to emphasize. How many times do you hear opposing coaches say that they just could not stop a certain play? It was not that they did not know it was coming, but that they could execute properly to stop something.
I think most competent coaches know what the other team is going to do.

Tombo - we have both posted enough to know that none of this personal. I get a kick out of your sense of humor. Sorry if this seems preachy....

 

[tombo]

I agree that we are just posting our opinions and it is nothing personal. Where I disagree is that it doesn't hurt for numerous fake posters to be posting lies here and acting like they are owners when they are in fact the developer. If an owner finds this thread and starts reading and finds that 6 owners (real) are upset about what the developer is doing at their resort, and they also read posts from 5 owners (fake) who are very pleased with the way everything is going, many owners will assume that the 6 upset owners are a digruntled few. A new guest can't know about trolls unless they are told that they exist.

The reality that they will never know is that not one single real owner is posting here that they are happy with what is going on at the resort. If the new guests who are actually owners were informed that all owners on the thread who are upset about what is happening at their resort were really owners, and that the "happy owners" posting here were in fact the developer posting fake posts acting like he was a happy owner, the new real guests could make a much more informed decision about the situation at their resort. If I joined this thread and found out that the developer couldn't find a single real owner to post here who was happy, so he had to invent happy owners and post fake posts himself, I would be very worried about what I owned and I would join the legal action to protect what I own. If I was new and thought that some like the new mgt, and some disliked it, I would be a lot less inclined to consider becoming a plaintiff.

BTW there are 2 more "guests" who have posted that I feel are Cliff. Of course I can't be sure, but I am as sure as I was about Massman, Viv, and MFweinstein (and capeguitarguy thanks to SOU). If we all ignore the elephant in the forum, we will do a disservice to real owners who have no clue that such dishonesty has occurred in the past, and is still possibly occuring.

As far as football wins and losses having nothing to do with strategies that must be kept secret from other teams, I disagree completely. I played football, my father coached football, and this fall I will live, eat,sleep, and breathe college football. Before the game you study films of the other teams for weeks looking for weaknesses. You formulate a game plan to beat this specific team and their individual players. Their safety is slow, throw the ball deep up the middle. The linebacker is injured, run it right at him. Their kickoff return team is not alert about onsides kicks, do an onside kick during your first kickoff. Their quarterback looks at his primary receiver as soon as the ball is snapped, defensive backs key on the QB's eyes. The QB is more emphatic with his signal when it is time to snap the ball, defensive lineman can jump the snap quicker. The running back looks at the hole he is going to hit before the ball is snapped, defensive linemen cheat towards that hole. The variables are endless, the game plan is often the difference between winning and losing. If the other team knew your plans they would practice onside kicks, get the quarterback to be more emphatic prior to the actual snap, get the running back to look at holes he isn't going to hit, cheat the safety really deep in coverage,and negate all the advantages you had picked up from the films. The reason the college coaches are paid the big bucks is because the best coaches formulate game plans which make their teams win, just like the best lawyers formulate a legal strategy to win their legal cases.

 

[NEVMSLLC]

Southcape Owners

Any owners wishing to speak with me directly may contact me at nevmsllc@gmail.com

Cliff

 

[Sou13]

Football?

Hey guys, this is about Southcape Resort!

I'm having so much trouble keeping up with unhappy owners and keeping up with all the silliness that I don't have time to post here!

I have a suggestion for NEVMSLLC: Update your Profile and Signature so that owners know how to get in touch with you.

I've had some trouble updating mine since the Master Deed was removed from the Southcape Resort website. I can't remove the link to the introductory letter from NEVS because I referenced it in the Sandcastle discussion. The second link wouldn't work until I figured out how to fix it, but it's to only the first of a succession of posts. The savvy TUG user knows how to proceed from there, but at least I'm trying to get the word out!

So now can we get back to my question to bhound54?

 

[tombo]

Hey guys, this is about Southcape Resort!

I'm having so much trouble keeping up with unhappy owners and keeping up with all the silliness that I don't have time to post here!



So now can we get back to my question to bhound54?

Sorry. My analogy sent Eric and myself off on a tangent. I will try to remain more focused on the subject at hand in the future.

 

[ecwinch]

What else is there to talk about? Actually I think the time for talking has come and gone....

 

[e.bram]

Ich bein ain Sandcastler and Southcaper(even if I don't own there). All TS owners(myself included) should contribute to a legal fund. We are all vulnerable to the problems facing the above owners unless TS grabs can be stopped in court.

 

[tombo]

Ich bein ain Sandcastler and Southcaper(even if I don't own there). All TS owners(myself included) should contribute to a legal fund. We are all vulnerable to the problems facing the above owners unless TS grabs can be stopped in court.

I will contribute. Someone start a fund. SOU, how about you?

 

[Sou13]

Contact JackB62

Quote:
Originally Posted by tombo

Quote:
Originally Posted by e.bram

Ich bein ain Sandcastler and Southcaper(even if I don't own there). All TS owners(myself included) should contribute to a legal fund. We are all vulnerable to the problems facing the above owners unless TS grabs can be stopped in court.​

I will contribute. Someone start a fund. SOU, how about you?​

JackB62 is handling that. I'm still working on my complaints to the AG and FTC!

 

[ecwinch]

JMO - but I would exhaust all avenues of due process before I engaged a lawyer. The first thing the lawyer is going to do is send a demand letter to the resort. This is something that you can do yourself.

Now the game would change if you can find an attorney willing to do this on a contingency basis.

I am not saying that retaining a lawyer is a bad idea. I think you will eventually probably end up their anyway. It is more a cost-containment strategy, allowing any dollars you raise to go further. Do as much as you can on your own, and bring the attorney in when you need to go to court. As I said, JMO.

I would rather go into an attorney's office with a well documented and highlighted file with all the pertinent information (governing documents, statements that Cliff has made here, financial statements, copies of Mass timeshare law, etc.). Otherwise the first big chunk of your budget is going to be consumed by the lawyer obtaining, preparing, and reviewing the same.

 

[Sou13]

That's what I've been trying to do

All of my time and effort has been directed toward obtaining as much info as possible before retaining a lawyer. And I still have a long way to go!

 

[vivmarch]

Who I am not, but not who I am.

Just in case Cliff tries to get rid of these priceless fake posts, here is one one saved in my post.

CliffViv said "the rest is history". What is history is anyone here believing anything Cliff says if he even has the guts to post here again after being exposed. Of course from now on we will never know for sure if any new poster is Cliff sneaking back into the thread under a new and improved alias. I think every now and then I will just say Hi to Cliff in case he is amongst us,


Hi CliffVivMassCapeStein, etc.

I return after a few days away to discover that I am now famous - or rather "infamous"... for being someone else!!??

Whilst I can't vouch for the other names on your list, I can assure you that I am not Cliff Hagberg, nor am I the King of Spain, or Angelina Jolie (though I wouldn't mind being that last one!)

As for the person (Sou-something) who looked me up on the deeds: given that I am so concerned about keeping my personal information private, why in the world would you expect me to post here under my real name??

I would like to thank those of you who have been kind enough to answer my questions in the past, and I wish any new posters good luck.

I don't feel comfortable posting here, so this will be my last.

 

[Fig]

I return after a few days away to discover that I am now famous - or rather "infamous"... for being someone else!!??

Whilst I can't vouch for the other names on your list, I can assure you that I am not Cliff Hagberg, nor am I the King of Spain, or Angelina Jolie (though I wouldn't mind being that last one!)

As for the person (Sou-something) who looked me up on the deeds: given that I am so concerned about keeping my personal information private, why in the world would you expect me to post here under my real name??

I would like to thank those of you who have been kind enough to answer my questions in the past, and I wish any new posters good luck.

I don't feel comfortable posting here, so this will be my last.

Good luck, Southcape and Sandcastle folks...you appear to be up against something that will stop at nothing. May the force be with you!

 

[Carolinian]

I totally agree with you. Why pay the hourly rate a lawyer would charge for research you can do yourself?

However, the initial issue of getting the membership list is extremely important and is a simple issue that involves little research.

JMO - but I would exhaust all avenues of due process before I engaged a lawyer. The first thing the lawyer is going to do is send a demand letter to the resort. This is something that you can do yourself.

Now the game would change if you can find an attorney willing to do this on a contingency basis.

I am not saying that retaining a lawyer is a bad idea. I think you will eventually probably end up their anyway. It is more a cost-containment strategy, allowing any dollars you raise to go further. Do as much as you can on your own, and bring the attorney in when you need to go to court. As I said, JMO.

I would rather go into an attorney's office with a well documented and highlighted file with all the pertinent information (governing documents, statements that Cliff has made here, financial statements, copies of Mass timeshare law, etc.). Otherwise the first big chunk of your budget is going to be consumed by the lawyer obtaining, preparing, and reviewing the same.

 

[ecwinch]

I totally agree with you. Why pay the hourly rate a lawyer would charge for research you can do yourself?

However, the initial issue of getting the membership list is extremely important and is a simple issue that involves little research.

In the WorldMark case, which is in California court, the members won the first round, but the BoD took the next step, which was to tie it up on appeal. Almost a year later, still no resolution or mailing list. But the meter is running for the appeal, for which the members are paying. As of six months ago, I think the total bill to the HOA was 15k and counting.

And since you are essentially suing yourself (BoD expenses are paid by the HOA), it just becomes a question of how much money the HOA is willing to spend to resist you. In that regard I think you get out-monied.

And I would not expect this case to proceed any faster than the California case.

 

[Sou13]

Eric, I'm afraid you're right!

I have to admit that Eric is probably right. We can't get legal help for ourselves without putting out the money, and the developers have deeper pockets.

Our hope may be with the AG after all. If we can show that Outfield Marketing and Festiva have engaged in deceptive sales practices the AG might take action as was done in MO.

I suspect that all of the Southcape owners who converted to points before Festiva registered to do business in MA may be able to get their deeds back if they realize they've been scammed and then complain to the AG. That's what Festiva agreed to do in MO when enough timeshare buyers complained that they'd been subject to deceptive sales practices.

There's also something going on at Equivest-Peppertree. Festiva has made some sort of settlement but there's a confidentiality clause including retractions of all negative statements about Festiva. Odd, isn't it?

 

[tombo]

Good luck, Southcape and Sandcastle folks...you appear to be up against something that will stop at nothing. May the force be with you!

This is becoming bizarre and now is bordering on absolutelly insane. There is no admission of guilt no matter how badly someone is caught. Excuses, fake posts, anything but the truth. Someone is either crazy, on drugs, without conscience, delusional, or a pathological liar IMO. What other situation could explain such lunacy?

Obviously a lawyer is the owner's only choice.

 

[e.bram]

Someone from the Boston area should thy to get one of the TV stations to do a "shame on you" expose.

 

[Sou13]

I'm still waiting for a reply from bhound54

I have yet to see a reply from bhound54. How can anyone not be concerned about the financial reports we brought back from that sham of an annual meeting?

I can't for the life of me figure out why there's a reported operating loss of $134,000 for 2008 in the breakdown of the $400 Special Assessment. And why Cliff Hagberg seems to be paying himself nearly twice what we were previously paying for "professional services" (no wonder he wants to keep his "job"!).

Is there anyone who still needs copies of these reports? Is nevmsllc@gmai.com refusing to provide them?

And Eric, what's the difference between March and January in New England when it comes to indoor pools?

 

[ecwinch]

And Eric, what's the difference between March and January in New England when it comes to indoor pools?

The day is longer.....:rofl:

 

[Carolinian]

Not necessarily. A lower court order will be enforced unless it is stayed pending appeal. The issue, in most courts, at least, should be so clear cut that there would be no stay and the court order to turn over the lists would be enforced pending the appeal.

Secondly, the governance of these resorts is so murky that there may be an opportunty to sue Cliff or NEVS without naming the HOA as a defendant, and if so the money issue changes dramatically.

In the WorldMark case, which is in California court, the members won the first round, but the BoD took the next step, which was to tie it up on appeal. Almost a year later, still no resolution or mailing list. But the meter is running for the appeal, for which the members are paying. As of six months ago, I think the total bill to the HOA was 15k and counting.

And since you are essentially suing yourself (BoD expenses are paid by the HOA), it just becomes a question of how much money the HOA is willing to spend to resist you. In that regard I think you get out-monied.

And I would not expect this case to proceed any faster than the California case.

 

[tombo]

The more members you get the cheaper the cost per member. If you don't hire a lawyer and fight it will cost you more assessments and MF increases in the future.

100 owners at $200 each would give you $20,000 to put in a retainer. 50 owners at $400 each would do the same thing. The lawsuit we filed against our board at a resort on the Gulf Coast cost our plaintiff group about $20,000, but we did prevail in court and stopped the board from rebuilding against the owners wishes. If we had not hired an attorney we would have been paying estimated 6000 per week in assessments. We had to pay $500 per week owned to fight the board with the few owners we could assemble to join our plaintiff group. We could have lowered the cost drastically if we could have contacted all of the owners, but the board refused to release the owner's list to us just as Cliff refuses to give it to you.The HOA's and developers don't ever want you to be able to contact all the owners to tell them what is going on because they know that they would have major problems if all owners were told the true situation rather than the lies told by the developers in the "newsletters" and in the annual meeting. You must fight this thing and you can't hire a lawyer for free.

To save your resort many of you are going to have to contribute some of your own money to a legal fund, and some of you are going to have to contribute a lot of personal time and effort in addition to money. To do anything less is to surrender and let Cliff/Outfield/Festiva/NEVMS do what ever they want at your resort including frequent assessments and large annual MF increases. You can pay the lawyer now or pay the crooks at NEVMS/Cliff/Festiva for as long as you own at your resort.