[2008] Southcape Resort

[vivmarch]

Members should not be satisfied with a mere Owners ''Advisory'' Committee. They should be controlling the board, not a purchaser or unsold developer inventory who is not even paying his rightful m/f's on that inventory and is therefore a deadbeat.

I have a question which might be stupid and obvious, but perhaps someone could answer it for me.

If a developer didn't come it and buy up the unsold weeks in order to sell them on (and presumably to make money, otherwise why would they bother), what would happen to these unsold weeks? Who would own them and who would be paying MFs on them?

Does anyone know?

 

[CIC3]

Hi Cliff,

Thank you for responding to my concerns. As I mentioned in my post, we stayed in Unit 14, not 18 as you stated in your reply. You mentioned that exterior work on Units 1-24 was completed, so I'm puzzled how the exterior door of Unit 14 got passed by? The wood on the bottom of the door is shredding and peeling. Also, the past newsletter says the interior of Unit 14 was updated 3 years ago. I'll be happy to send you a copy of the newsletter if you're unable to locate one. Or are you implying that although the newsletter indicates the work was done, it never was? If that's the case, there should be in place some system where owners can verify whether or not the work took place that was communicated in the newsletter. Owners should not have to take what was communicated in a newsletter as face value. We have been receiving annual reports with our maintenance fee bills right along, so the cost for those updates three years ago were listed. But everything is included in one lump category. Perhaps going forward a line item accounting system can be used so owners can see exactly how much is spent on upgrades and repairs per unit or item.

 

[NEVMSLLC]

Hi CIC3

Sorry about the mistake in the unit number but they're all in basically the same condition. The doors, etc. are part of the interior work we're going to be doing. We only had a few weeks before the start of the summer season so we concentrated on roofs, siding, trim boards and painting which was about all we could get done in the short time frame.

As I said, I haven't seen a copy of that newsletter, but basically, no work was done on units 1 - 24. We've discovered a number of items not done by the previous trustees that we were uncomfortable with.

Owners will be able to see for themselves the work that was done anytime they visit with us. Resort management will be happy to meet with any owner that would like more details, all we ask is that you make an appointment so we can reserve time to answer your questions.

Cliff

 

[Sou13]

Another legal question?

Quote:
Originally Posted by vivmarch
I have a question which might be stupid and obvious, but perhaps someone could answer it for me.

If a developer didn't come it and buy up the unsold weeks in order to sell them on (and presumably to make money, otherwise why would they bother), what would happen to these unsold weeks? Who would own them and who would be paying MFs on them?

Does anyone know?​

This may be one of those legal questions that NEVMSLLC refuses to answer.

 

[NEVMSLLC]

I'm not sure she was asking it of me.

 

[Sou13]

Who is she?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NEVMSLLC
I'm not sure she was asking it of me.​

Who is "she"? You know that I am a "she" but if you were referring to vivmarch how did you know what gender this new poster is?

 

[Sou13]

Addendum to above

Oh and BTW I am a Southcape owner and that was not a legal question.

 

[london]

Resort Improvements & Management

I have been timesharing since 1991.

The upkeep of the units and grounds are important to all owners.

Sometimes assessments are needed to complete renovations.

It appears that this resort will be in a much better condition in a year or two.

I suspect the majority of owners use the weeks, rather than trade them.

I think this resort will continue for many years to come.

 

[NEVMSLLC]

Quote:
Originally Posted by NEVMSLLC
I'm not sure she was asking it of me.​

Who is "she"? You know that I am a "she" but if you were referring to vivmarch how did you know what gender this new poster is?

Sou, you are absolutely correct here. When I saw the "viv" I assumed it was for Vivian and referred to the poster as "she". I stand corrected and hereby apologize to vivmarch for my sexist assumption.

 

[tombo]

Quote:
Originally Posted by NEVMSLLC
I'm not sure she was asking it of me.​

Who is "she"? You know that I am a "she" but if you were referring to vivmarch how did you know what gender this new poster is?

Sou I referred to you as "he" for a long time after you started posting. I couldn't pssibly know which sex you were, or which sex a poster named vivmarch was either. One always uses "he" if not sure.

I remain amazed by all of the new posters who are not mad at Cliff, Outfield, or Festiva. For over 6 months few if any new guests who liked NEVS, Outfield, or Festiva found their way to this board. Now it is a daily occurence. It is funny how virtually all of the new posters who are all "guests" seem to feel the way Cliff would like all owners to feel.

I am glad that new "guests" can point out that the resort is being renovated for the good of all.

It does make one curious wondering where the new guests are that are mad about the assessments that have been levied with no vote or input from owner's? Where are the new guests wanting accountability for how the money is being spent? Do none of the new "guests" care about how contractors were chosen (closed bids, brother-in-laws), where the material was purchased, if all scheduled repairs needed to be done right now or could have waited, who is doing the accounting for the expenditures and when they will be available for owners to examine, and if any upcoming asessments will be levied to finish the current upgrades if the money runs out before updates are finished, or if any future assessments are in the plans for future upgrades. I am surprised with the influx of new "guests" on this thread that none of those who feel this way have found their way here after talking to owners at the resort who were mad about the assessments. Apparently only happy owners are inviting people to visit TUG.



It is also great for new "guests" to bring up the question of what would happen if a developer hadn't bought those unsold weeks as they said "to make money or why bother" (that sounds like something a developer would say). It is good to remind everyone that if the developer didn't buy them that nobody would be paying MF's on them.

Where are the new "guests" concerned that the unsold weeks are owned by the new developer and THE NEW DEVELOPER IS CONTROLLING THOSE UNSOLD WEEKS AND APPOINTING TRUSTEES TO RULE THE RESORT WHILE PAYING NO MF'S OR ASSESSMENTS ON THOSE WEEKS? Where are the "guests who are mad that the developer is not paying a penny to renovate the resort but reaping the benefit by selling their upgraded weeks they don't pay MF's on or assessments on at the upgraded resort they didn't have to pay to upgrade or maintain? How about "guests who are mad that Outfield never even mentions the availability of unsold inventory as they try to get them to swap to points for $3000 and their "worthless" deeded week? Where are the new "guests" concerned that the developer can always keep enough unsold inventory to remain forever in control of the resort?

I am surprised that we recently have seen so many new "guests" who are happy with the situation at Southscape apearing on this thread, but that we have almost zero new "guests" finding this thread who are upset with the situation at Southscape. The new happy "guests seem to be finding out about this thread while at the resort. Apparently only happy owners are discussing TUG by the pool. That is very surprising since most of the posters here on TUG are very unhappy about the situation at the resort. You would think that the people who are actually posting on TUG would be the ones discussing TUG at the resort. If TUGGERS were inviting owners to this thread, you would expect new "guests" would enter the site looking to see what problems are occuring at the resort, rather than making their first posts praising upgrades and actions taken by mgt.

I think every owner here who is upset about the situation at Southscape and Sandcastle needs to be more vocal by the pool, at the owner's meetings, and as you pass people in the parking lot. Tell everyone you see at the resort about the situation and invite them to join TUG. Soon we might start seeing new "guests" who don't agree with Cliff, and you might save some owners from giving up their deeded week for "worthless" Festiva points. On your next trip to your resort, spread the word about TUG to all you see, not just the happy owners.

 

[JackB62]

We need to get together!

Tombo,

Thanks for your rallying post. You have spoken the truth again.

To Southcape Interval owners: note that two things have happened
that you should be aware of.

1- An assessment of over $1.2 million. In the Master Deed, SA work is not supposed to start until most of the money is collected. The work started before virtually any money was collected.

2- While there is a new coat of paint and a roof (much of which didn't need to be replaced because it already had been), don't let the "look" make you feel comfortable. Many of the interiors are in great disrepair and yet work has stopped. I bet a lot of the money hasn't been collected.

Under the old owners, another building may have been completed in time for this summer season. That last building was done under the old management
and was completely refurbished inside and out without a special assessment.

I do agree that the old management may have tried to save us too much money, but eventually things got done.

 

[vivmarch]

Sou I referred to you as "he" for a long time after you started posting. I couldn't pssibly know which sex you were, or which sex a poster named vivmarch was either. One always uses "he" if not sure.

I remain amazed by all of the new posters who are not mad at Cliff, Outfield, or Festiva. For over 6 months few if any new guests who liked NEVS, Outfield, or Festiva found their way to this board. Now it is a daily occurence. It is funny how virtually all of the new posters who are all "guests" seem to feel the way Cliff would like all owners to feel.

I am glad that new "guests" can point out that the resort is being renovated for the good of all.

It does make one curious wondering where the new guests are that are mad about the assessments that have been levied with no vote or input from owner's? Where are the new guests wanting accountability for how the money is being spent? Do none of the new "guests" care about how contractors were chosen (closed bids, brother-in-laws), where the material was purchased, if all scheduled repairs needed to be done right now or could have waited, who is doing the accounting for the expenditures and when they will be available for owners to examine, and if any upcoming asessments will be levied to finish the current upgrades if the money runs out before updates are finished, or if any future assessments are in the plans for future upgrades. I am surprised with the influx of new "guests" on this thread that none of those who feel this way have found their way here after talking to owners at the resort who were mad about the assessments. Apparently only happy owners are inviting people to visit TUG.



It is also great for new "guests" to bring up the question of what would happen if a developer hadn't bought those unsold weeks as they said "to make money or why bother" (that sounds like something a developer would say). It is good to remind everyone that if the developer didn't buy them that nobody would be paying MF's on them.

Where are the new "guests" concerned that the unsold weeks are owned by the new developer and THE NEW DEVELOPER IS CONTROLLING THOSE UNSOLD WEEKS AND APPOINTING TRUSTEES TO RULE THE RESORT WHILE PAYING NO MF'S OR ASSESSMENTS ON THOSE WEEKS? Where are the "guests who are mad that the developer is not paying a penny to renovate the resort but reaping the benefit by selling their upgraded weeks they don't pay MF's on or assessments on at the upgraded resort they didn't have to pay to upgrade or maintain? How about "guests who are mad that Outfield never even mentions the availability of unsold inventory as they try to get them to swap to points for $3000 and their "worthless" deeded week? Where are the new "guests" concerned that the developer can always keep enough unsold inventory to remain forever in control of the resort?

I am surprised that we recently have seen so many new "guests" who are happy with the situation at Southscape apearing on this thread, but that we have almost zero new "guests" finding this thread who are upset with the situation at Southscape. The new happy "guests seem to be finding out about this thread while at the resort. Apparently only happy owners are discussing TUG by the pool. That is very surprising since most of the posters here on TUG are very unhappy about the situation at the resort. You would think that the people who are actually posting on TUG would be the ones discussing TUG at the resort. If TUGGERS were inviting owners to this thread, you would expect new "guests" would enter the site looking to see what problems are occuring at the resort, rather than making their first posts praising upgrades and actions taken by mgt.

I think every owner here who is upset about the situation at Southscape and Sandcastle needs to be more vocal by the pool, at the owner's meetings, and as you pass people in the parking lot. Tell everyone you see at the resort about the situation and invite them to join TUG. Soon we might start seeing new "guests" who don't agree with Cliff, and you might save some owners from giving up their deeded week for "worthless" Festiva points. On your next trip to your resort, spread the word about TUG to all you see, not just the happy owners.

You make an excellent point. To me it suggests that there are perhaps not as many unhappy owners as there are made out to be?

FYI: the other owner who put me on to this site wasn't unhappy. He just mentioned the site because it had been pointed out to him and he was passing it on.

 

[Fig]

You make an excellent point. To me it suggests that there are perhaps not as many unhappy owners as there are made out to be?

FYI: the other owner who put me on to this site wasn't unhappy. He just mentioned the site because it had been pointed out to him and he was passing it on.

Okay, it isn't the first time I have suggested that Cliff might be posting as Viv...and a few other names...now he seems to have lost track of what names he is posting under so the stories can be consistent post to post.

Viv is now saying a "he'' introduced her/him onto the site....her/his first post said it was the "woman next door"....gee that might be a detail I would recall if I had truly had a conversation in the first place.

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=752563&postcount=705

Poor Cliff he is spinning so much...like the tale that Outfield Marketing has an office somewhere outside of Denton, TX until I pointed out his own legal documents said it was that exact same address or that a timeshare is not real estate when his own website claims it is....he is tripping over his own yarns.

Take a nice long breath Cliff...relax and compose.

 

[tombo]

You make an excellent point. To me it suggests that there are perhaps not as many unhappy owners as there are made out to be?

FYI: the other owner who put me on to this site wasn't unhappy. He just mentioned the site because it had been pointed out to him and he was passing it on.

OMG Cliff, do you think that you are brilliant and everyone else is stupid? You can not be so blatant and still be believed. A blind man can see where this is coming from.

 

[Carolinian]

If the resort had a properly organized homeowner-run HOA, which the current developer dictatorship is thwarting, then if m/f's were not paid, the weeks would be foreclosed and would belong to the HOA, which could then sell them.

On the Outer Banks, a number of homeowner-run HOA's sued or threatened to sue developers who were not paying m/f's on their weeks and the weeks ended up owned by the HOA's which then sold them off. One HOA on the OBX also squeezed six figures in cash out of the developer in addition to the developer owned weeks. HOA's need to be firm with deadbeat developers and not let them continue stiffing the HOA and its members. If this deadbeat developer at your resort had been paying m/f's on its weeks, the resort would probably not have needed a special assessment.

I have a question which might be stupid and obvious, but perhaps someone could answer it for me.

If a developer didn't come it and buy up the unsold weeks in order to sell them on (and presumably to make money, otherwise why would they bother), what would happen to these unsold weeks? Who would own them and who would be paying MFs on them?

Does anyone know?

 

[Fig]

OMG Cliff, do you think that you are brilliant and everyone else is stupid? You can not be so blatant and still be believed. A blind man can see where this is coming from.

Tombo, I guess we should feel lucky Cliff is still talking with us in the form of "Viv" and his Viv alt is so much easier to chat with...it just gets darn hard to create a fictious poster and have all the details remain consistent...never mind when you are trying to juggle several...I'll miss you Viv if you can't 'splain your way out of this one. Give Cliff a kiss for us, will ya?

 

[Carolinian]

I have been timesharing since 1991.

The upkeep of the units and grounds are important to all owners.

Sometimes assessments are needed to complete renovations.

It appears that this resort will be in a much better condition in a year or two.

I suspect the majority of owners use the weeks, rather than trade them.

I think this resort will continue for many years to come.

Having been on an HOA board that proposed a special assessment to our members, which received the unanimous vote of the members, I agree that occaisionally such things are necessary in timesharing, although they should be rare. Our Declaration of Covenants provision that required a homeowner vote for an special assessment is a wise precaution in timesharing.

One of the major red flags on Southcape on the financial side is that the management is stonewalling members from looking at the books. Members are allowed to do that in every state I am aware of by state law. Why is this management stonewalling and violating state law? Is there something in those books they are trying to hide? Members need to be insistant, even get a court order if necessary. Management's stonewalling is way out of line.

 

[NEVMSLLC]

Tombo, I guess we should feel lucky Cliff is still talking with us in the form of "Viv" and his Viv alt is so much easier to chat with...it just gets darn hard to create a fictious poster and have all the details remain consistent...never mind when you are trying to juggle several...I'll miss you Viv if you can't 'splain your way out of this one. Give Cliff a kiss for us, will ya?

Wow, you guys are really too much!! So, everyone who doesn't agree with you must be me?

So, now I must be vivmarch, mweinberg, london, cic3, massman and a whole host of others???? What kind of time do you think I have available?

I'm just here to answer legitimate questions from legitimate owners and you guys take up a lot of space and time with a bunch of nonsense.

Since there are many on here who will not respect new posters or actual owners at the resort, please contact me at nevmsllc@gmail.com and I'll be happy to answer your questions. We'll let the rest of them pass their conspiracy theories back and forth to each other.

 

[Fig]

Wow, you guys are really too much!! So, everyone who doesn't agree with you must be me?

So, now I must be vivmarch, mweinberg, london, cic3, massman and a whole host of others???? What kind of time do you think I have available?

Nah, London is a real owner, as are many of the others...but Viv..I was onto her from the start. Nice lady though...you just have to get your details down a little better. You did take my suggestion not to post at the same time. However, here's another little hint , when you start a story and say that "the woman next door" introduced you to the site and then post that it was a man, you strain credibility a bit. Work on that, will ya? But then again, as I say, Cliff, you are pretty darned incredible.

So happy to be chatting again, Cliff as Cliff...I've missed our little conversations.

 

[ecwinch]

I have been timesharing since 1991.

The upkeep of the units and grounds are important to all owners.

Sometimes assessments are needed to complete renovations.

It appears that this resort will be in a much better condition in a year or two.

I suspect the majority of owners use the weeks, rather than trade them.

I think this resort will continue for many years to come.

I do not think this is being disputed. The broader question is "are you comfortable with Cliff's abuse of power and unjust enrichment, as long as the condition of the resort improves".

As previously noted, if Cliff was paying m/f on his inventory, the special assessment would obviously be far less than it is.

If the majority of owners, are comfortable with practices at the resort, then I agree, the non-owners should stand-down. There are any number of actions that Cliff has the power to take in order to settle the issue, but he has chosen a different path. While not an owner there, I think it is important for owners to be fully informed on their rights to curb unfair practices at resorts.

 

[ecwinch]

I have a question which might be stupid and obvious, but perhaps someone could answer it for me.

If a developer didn't come it and buy up the unsold weeks in order to sell them on (and presumably to make money, otherwise why would they bother), what would happen to these unsold weeks? Who would own them and who would be paying MFs on them?

Does anyone know?

The answer is that the HOA would most likely own them. The important distinction is that having the HOA own these weeks, means that the HOA benefits fully from the rental income and the revenue should any of these weeks be sold.

Would that be any different than what you have now? Yes and no.

On the m/f and special assessment side it is a wash, since Cliff does not pay m/f and assessments on his inventory. So the expenses are shared only by actual owners. This is no different then if the HOA owned the weeks.

The major difference would be when a week is sold. If the HOA owned the weeks, then the HOA would receive the proceeds from the sale. So the HOA would benefit from the sales price of the two weeks that were recently sold. Currently the HOA received nothing. And in part the special assessment has improved those units (at your expense), allowing them to be sold at a higher price. So Cliff is directly benefiting from the improvements that you, as a owner, are paying for. This is typically referred to as "unjust enrichment".

Now to give Cliff some credit, he has previously stated that he has ceded all rental revenue from his inventory to the HOA. Legally I think it would be hard for him to do otherwise, and maintain his position that he does not have pay m/f. Clearly if he is receiving beneficial use of the units, his position that he is exempt from m/f would be diminished. I think he knows that, and that it influenced his decision to do so.

So the bottom line is that you are paying to improve his property. So that can in turn sell it at a greater profit or convert into more Festiva credits for Outfield to sell. As an owner, how can you be comfortable with that arrangement?

 

[NEVMSLLC]

I do not think this is being disputed. The broader question is "are you comfortable with Cliff's abuse of power and unjust enrichment, as long as the condition of the resort improves".

OK, Eric, that's enough. "Abuse of power" and "unjust enrichment" are very serious legal accusations. Unless you are able to back your statements up with proof, I would expect and accept an apology from you. These appear to be statements of fact and they also appear to be defamatory, all of which is potentially actionable.

I will tolerate a lot of abuse on here and I have, but I will not tolerate unfounded accusations such as you have just made.

Cliff

 

[Fig]

Now to give Cliff some credit, he has previously stated that he has ceded all rental revenue from his inventory to the HOA.

The Cape is a summer area and pretty much closed in the winter when this inventory is, as pointed out by an owner who asked about it http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=756702&postcount=102 (interesting Cliff would rather take issue with non-owners before answering that question which has been hanging out there since 10am...before all the non-owner posts he seems so wound up about.) So, isn't this claim to rental income rather moot?

 

[NEVMSLLC]

The answer is that the HOA would most likely own them. The important distinction is that having the HOA own these weeks, means that the HOA benefits fully from the rental income and the revenue should any of these weeks be sold.

Would that be any different than what you have now? Yes and no.

On the m/f and special assessment side it is a wash, since Cliff does not pay m/f and assessments on his inventory. So the expenses are shared only by actual owners. This is no different then if the HOA owned the weeks.

The major difference would be when a week is sold. If the HOA owned the weeks, then the HOA would receive the proceeds from the sale. So the HOA would benefit from the sales price of the two weeks that were recently sold. Currently the HOA received nothing. And in part the special assessment has improved those units (at your expense), allowing them to be sold at a higher price. So Cliff is directly benefiting from the improvements that you, as a owner, are paying for. This is typically referred to as "unjust enrichment".

Now to give Cliff some credit, he has previously stated that he has ceded all rental revenue from his inventory to the HOA. Legally I think it would be hard for him to do otherwise, and maintain his position that he does not have pay m/f. Clearly if he is receiving beneficial use of the units, his position that he is exempt from m/f would be diminished. I think he knows that, and that it influenced his decision to do so.

So the bottom line is that you are paying to improve his property. So that can in turn sell it at a greater profit or convert into more Festiva credits for Outfield to sell. As an owner, how can you be comfortable with that arrangement?

Your final statement here is even worse than the previous one. In all the months I've been answering questions and responding on here, this is the first time I've actually gotten angry at the half truths, innuendos and outright falsehoods being posted here on TUG.

 

[ecwinch]

OK, Eric, that's enough. "Abuse of power" and "unjust enrichment" are very serious legal accusations. Unless you are able to back your statements up with proof, I would expect and accept an apology from you. These appear to be statements of fact and they also appear to be defamatory, all of which is potentially actionable.

I will tolerate a lot of abuse on here and I have, but I will not tolerate unfounded accusations such as you have just made.

Cliff

Oh, now we have legal threat of libel. Nice.

Let me clarify my opinions, and make the following statements in the good faith and the reasonable belief that they are true. These statements form the basis for my personal opinion. By and large, as a private individual, I am relying on the statements written here on the board by you and others. Feel free to rebut any of my statements, and in regard to any facts you may present, I will gladly withdrawn my statements and issue an apology.

First, regarding your abuse of power. Here is the information that I have that support my personal opinion:

You have been unwilling to share legal opinions provided to you as a Trustee by HOA legal counsel regarding the your non-payment of m/f with regard to developer inventory.

You have refused to provide the members list to authorized members of HOA. This is in contravention of the section 32 of the Mass statute Chapter 183B.

You have refused to allow members to inspect the records of the corporation. Again in contravention of the Section 5.10 of the By-Laws and section 30 of Mass statute Chapter 183B.

Despite your illegal refusal to provide the members list, you have refused to provide an alternate procedure that would allow concerned members to communicate with each other regarding HOA business.

In regard to your unjust enrichment, you have failed to document the legality of your non-payment of m/f, which allows you to retain ownership of your inventory. Said inventory is benefiting from improvements that are being paid for by the special assessment levied on owners at the resort, and for which you claim to be exempt.

The special assessments levied on these other owners is improving the value of property that you retain ownership of. Your claim of exemption from sharing in the expense of improving said property is a result of a flawed contract, and is unconscionable. This is the basis for my statement of unjust enrichment, in that your property is being improved at the expense of other owners at the resort.

The above are personal statements made by me, a private individual, based on the information provided in this forum. They are made with no malice. They are personal opinions.

p.s. why are my opinions so important to you Cliff....