How are TX Tuggers making out?

[dagger1]

Riddle me this Batman:
With wholesale electric prices going through the roof, don't you think that any natural gas fired electricity provider would have spun up for the cash grab? Why is that?

Ok Robin. Many of the gas processing plants that feed the power plants were offline for maintenance or other issue (they don’t start up like a car), and many of these gas plants were froze up because they were subject to the rolling blackouts that were being used to protect the grid. Only in Gotham City does a person give 40% of their business to one entity (a “maybe” source like windmills/solar) AND expect another entity (that provides a guaranteed source) to “stand by” (at zero revenue) and be ready in case the unreliable source fails. And then think that these plants fire up like a car.

 

[dagger1]

With the exception of solar in space, I don't think anyone has said green sources of power should be 100%. Should be AND not OR. The problem is that Texas didn't plan for the AND. Their backup failed miserably.

Here we agree. Absolutely poor planning. Over schooled under educated morons with no “real” world experience. Utility providers have warned about this for several years.

 

[dagger1]

Not at all relevant to the point I was making, but nice try at changing the topic.

Why thank you!! No change of topic, just riffing on your point. I guess your point, that windmills can work in winter climates means they can and should have worked in Texas. My point was that it doesn’t matter what season it is, if the wind isnt blowing, the windmills aren’t producing electricity, no matter how winterized they are. Which means unreliable.

 

[geist1223]

Their backup failed miserably.

Texas had a backup?

 

[SmithOp]

Texas had a backup?

Well they have a self contained grid, so if the whole state had not froze up... Regional outages could be handled by transfers from other parts of the state. Being off the national grid stung them in the bee-hind.

 

[geist1223]

Well they have a self contained grid, so if the whole state had not froze up... Regional outages could be handled by transfers from other parts of the state. Being off the national grid stung them in the bee-hind.

Ah but they have their independence. Don't need no stinkin National grid to help.

 

[DrQ]

Texas had a backup?

Yes, wind and solar are intermittent sources, there is natural gas reserve capacity at the ready or that was the plan until ERCOT turned off power to the production wells and pipeline compressors.

 

[DrQ]

Ok Robin. Many of the gas processing plants that feed the power plants were offline for maintenance or other issue (they don’t start up like a car), and many of these gas plants were froze up because they were subject to the rolling blackouts that were being used to protect the grid.

BINGO!

An inherently unstable system. The natural gas production was not categorized as CRITICAL. It may not have needed outside power at one point, but when the two became interdependent, it looks as if the plan was not updated.

• Left hand - ERCOT
• Right hand - TRRC

I bet the two don't communicate well.

It would have fallen over with or without green energy. Demand went up faster than the loss of wind energy.

-Edward, not robin

 

[bbodb1]

BINGO!

An inherently unstable system. The natural gas production was not categorized as CRITICAL. It may not have needed outside power at one point, but when the two became interdependent, it looks as if the plan was not updated.

• Left hand - ERCOT
• Right hand - TRRC

I bet the two don't communicate well.

It would have fallen over with or without green energy. Demand went up faster than the loss of wind energy.

-Edward, not robin

Perhaps you should have signed this Alfred!

 

[DrQ]

Perhaps you should have signed this Alfred!

I prefer Edward

 

[dagger1]

BINGO!

An inherently unstable system. The natural gas production was not categorized as CRITICAL. It may not have needed outside power at one point, but when the two became interdependent, it looks as if the plan was not updated.

• Left hand - ERCOT
• Right hand - TRRC

I bet the two don't communicate well.

It would have fallen over with or without green energy. Demand went up faster than the loss of wind energy.

-Edward, not robin

I guess we will have to disagree. There would have been no failure or danger to the grid if natural gas was the primary source (thus all the gas plants would have been running suppling fuel to the electric producers) and the wind turbines were the back up source. There would have been no fiasco trying to bring gas plants online, they would have all been online.

 

[Ken555]

Why thank you!! No change of topic, just riffing on your point. I guess your point, that windmills can work in winter climates means they can and should have worked in Texas. My point was that it doesn’t matter what season it is, if the wind isnt blowing, the windmills aren’t producing electricity, no matter how winterized they are. Which means unreliable.

Windmills are a proven energy source. Your continuing attempt to change the discussion from a failure to winterize their equipment to dispute the ability for windmills to work is not going to fly. For grins, here are a few links to support these facts. Face it, Texas utterly failed, from top to bottom - didn't spend the money as per recommendations and prioritized profits over infrastructure (which, fwiw, is a problem in many regions and not just in Texas).

Wind is a growing part of the electricity mix in Texas - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

www.eia.gov

- in 2019 "Texas had more wind capacity than any other U.S. state. If Texas were a country, it would have had the fifth-highest installed wind capacity in the world"

U.S. Energy Information Administration - EIA - Independent Statistics and Analysis

www.eia.gov

- "Texas also has abundant renewable energy resources and is first in the nation in wind-generated electricity."
- "Wind-powered generation in Texas has rapidly increased during the past two decades. In 2019, wind energy provided more than one-sixth of Texas' generation."
- "Texas leads the nation in wind-powered electricity generation, producing almost three-tenths of the U.S. total in 2019."

Wind power in Texas - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

- "Wind power in Texas, a portion of total energy in Texas, consists of over 150 wind farms, which together have a total nameplate capacity of over 30,000 MW (as of 2020)."

WINDExchange: Wind Energy in Texas

- shows wind power generates 17.41% of power in Texas

WINDExchange: Texas 80-Meter Wind Resource Map

- this map shows the annual average wind speed at 80m in Texas.
- "Areas with annual average wind speeds around 6.5 meters per second and greater at 80-m height are generally considered to have a resource suitable for wind development. Utility-scale, land-based wind turbines are typically installed between 80- and 100-m high although tower heights for new installations are increasing—up to 140 m—to gain access to better wind resources higher aloft."

So I'm confused, tell us again how wind power just doesn't work. Are you sure you aren't a lobbyist for the oil industry?

 

[T-Dot-Traveller]

Well, as others have pointed out, if windmills (and more) work in winter climates, it can work in Texas, too.

Windmills never work when the wind isn’t blowing. Nowhere in the world. To rely on them during critical times of the year (anytime electric outages can risk lives) is the height of folly.

Windmills work fine in an Ontario Canada winter.

HOWEVER - this can also cost you money. Windmills make power , even when your public utility does not need it.
There are times when Ontario pays the windmill farms AND also PAYS $$$ Michigan to take the excess power.

[Ontario electric power is about 61 % Nuclear , and you cannot turn that off easily]
About 10+years ago those in charge heavily promoted growth in wind & solar so we could (and did) close all remaining coal fuelled power plants.
It works fine and costs everyone more - especially when we have to pay to give it away.
[ sort of like getting rid of a time share you don’t need ]

********
Regardless of the worldwide location - there is always plenty of hot air coming from leaders who promote solutions that they don’t fully understand. / as we say on TUG - if their lips are moving ..........

 

[Ken555]

Windmills work fine in an Ontario Canada winter.

'nuf said. This really isn't a discussion about costs, though of course that's part of it. I don't recall a similar catastrophe in Canada, and it's my understanding Canada regulates the utility providers much more than the profits-first mentality in Texas.

 

[T-Dot-Traveller]

'nuf said. This really isn't a discussion about costs, though of course that's part of it. I don't recall a similar catastrophe in Canada, and it's my understanding Canada regulates the utility providers much more than the profits-first mentality in Texas.

True - but there are estimates that it costs Ontario taxpayers one billion dollars a year to export excess power to Michigan below cost . I have read estimates that this is an extra $ 220 dollars per year per household.

We have our poor planning too.

 

[Ken555]

True - but there are estimates that it costs Ontario taxpayers one billion dollars a year to export excess power to Michigan below cost . I have read estimates that this is an extra $ 220 dollars per year per household.

We have our poor planning too.

Sorry, I’m still not done with accepting that because of profit taking and poor infrastructure investments, people have died in Texas. Naturally costs are a factor, but speaking for myself I’m not yet ready to discuss it. We have this tendency to quickly skip over the reality of how these types of decisions impact people. I will be shocked if anyone is held accountable in Texas for these mistakes.

And fwiw, I would have no problem whatsoever paying an extra $220 per year for a utility system that is prepared for extreme weather events so that others don’t die.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Ralph Sir Edward]

I could make the same comment when the next "big" earthquake occurs in Southern California. But then again, I am a wag. . . .

 

[Talent312]

There would have been no failure or danger to the grid if natural gas was the primary source (thus all the gas plants would have been running suppling fuel to the electric producers)...

If wishes were horses, beggars would ride...
And if - if’s and an’s were pots and pans, the tinker would never work!
-- English Nursery Rhyme

 

[DrQ]

I guess we will have to disagree. There would have been no failure or danger to the grid if natural gas was the primary source (thus all the gas plants would have been running suppling fuel to the electric producers) and the wind turbines were the back up source. There would have been no fiasco trying to bring gas plants online, they would have all been online.

I don't think so, Tim:

“Power companies get exactly what they want”: How Texas repeatedly failed to protect its power grid against extreme weather
Texas regulators and lawmakers knew about the grid’s vulnerabilities for years, but time and again they furthered the interests of large electricity providers.

​

In January 2014, power plants owned by Texas’ largest electricity producer buckled under frigid temperatures. Its generators failed more than a dozen times in 12 hours, helping to bring the state’s electric grid to the brink of collapse.​

​

The incident was the second in three years for North Texas-based Luminant, whose equipment malfunctions during a more severe storm in 2011 resulted in a $750,000 fine from state energy regulators for failing to deliver promised power to the grid.​

...​

In May 2014, the PUC sought changes that would require energy companies to identify and address all potential failure points, including any effects of “weather design limits.”​

​

Luminant argued against the proposal.​

​

​

“Power companies get exactly what they want”: How Texas repeatedly failed to protect its power grid against extreme weather

Texas regulators and lawmakers knew about the grid’s vulnerabilities for years, but time and again they furthered the interests of large electricity providers.

www.texastribune.org

 

[DrQ]

As Texas deep freeze subsides, some households now face electricity bills as high as $10,000.

As Texas deep freeze subsides, some households now face electricity bills as high as $10,000

“The last thing an awful lot of people need right now is a higher electric bill — and that’s unfortunately something a lot of people will get stuck with."

www.nbcnews.com

.


Richard

This was the exception, not the norm:

"The Texas market has close to 7 million residential customers, and most people do not have variable-rate plans, said Catherine Webking, a partner at Austin-based law firm Scott Douglass & McConnico.

Griddy, which has 29,000 customers, according to local media reports, would account for 0.4% of the state's total residential customers.

"It's important to understand that is such a small, small sliver," Webking said."

Texas freeze raises concerns about 'ridiculous' variable rate bill

Texas homeowners who signed up for variable rate electricity are seeing bills spiral into thousands of dollars as prices rocket during a freezing storm

news.trust.org

It's like driving without insurance.

 

["Roger"]

I might just add to the discussion, that El Paso is not on the Texas grid. Ten years ago, when the last deep freeze hit, they took steps to winterize their power sources. They had no loss of electricity or water during the recent freeze. I have a friend who lives in Lubbock. Apparently, it is also off the Texas grid. (He tells me that this is true for about 10 percent of the Texans.) Same experience during this freeze. No loss of power, no loss of water.

 

[nerodog]

To all the Texans and others who may be experiencing severe cold weather; Don't forget to leave all your faucets running to help prevent frozen pipes should you lose your heat source.

Frozen pipes are not what you want to deal with if you can possibly avoid it.....


.

I used to leave my cabinet doors under the sinks in bath and kitchen so tge heat from the house could circulate as well as letting the faucet drip. Also used to never turn off the out door faucets on house.

 

[Ken555]

I could make the same comment when the next "big" earthquake occurs in Southern California. But then again, I am a wag. . . .

I'm sure many will, just like last year when Texas politicians complained about California. Still, if you're going to do this keep in mind that we have had building codes for decades to minimize earthquake damage. This would be akin to Texas having regulations for winterizing equipment...oops.

 

[DrQ]

I'm sure many will, just like last year when Texas politicians complained about California.

That person had to eat those words as well as fess up about some ill conceived vacation plans.

 

[dagger1]

Windmills are a proven energy source. Your continuing attempt to change the discussion from a failure to winterize their equipment to dispute the ability for windmills to work is not going to fly. For grins, here are a few links to support these facts. Face it, Texas utterly failed, from top to bottom - didn't spend the money as per recommendations and prioritized profits over infrastructure (which, fwiw, is a problem in many regions and not just in Texas).

Wind is a growing part of the electricity mix in Texas - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

www.eia.gov

- in 2019 "Texas had more wind capacity than any other U.S. state. If Texas were a country, it would have had the fifth-highest installed wind capacity in the world"

U.S. Energy Information Administration - EIA - Independent Statistics and Analysis

www.eia.gov

- "Texas also has abundant renewable energy resources and is first in the nation in wind-generated electricity."
- "Wind-powered generation in Texas has rapidly increased during the past two decades. In 2019, wind energy provided more than one-sixth of Texas' generation."
- "Texas leads the nation in wind-powered electricity generation, producing almost three-tenths of the U.S. total in 2019."

Wind power in Texas - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

- "Wind power in Texas, a portion of total energy in Texas, consists of over 150 wind farms, which together have a total nameplate capacity of over 30,000 MW (as of 2020)."

WINDExchange: Wind Energy in Texas

- shows wind power generates 17.41% of power in Texas

WINDExchange: Texas 80-Meter Wind Resource Map

- this map shows the annual average wind speed at 80m in Texas.
- "Areas with annual average wind speeds around 6.5 meters per second and greater at 80-m height are generally considered to have a resource suitable for wind development. Utility-scale, land-based wind turbines are typically installed between 80- and 100-m high although tower heights for new installations are increasing—up to 140 m—to gain access to better wind resources higher aloft."

So I'm confused, tell us again how wind power just doesn't work. Are you sure you aren't a lobbyist for the oil industry?