You're Being Lied to About Electric Cars

[emeryjre]

Undoubtedly costs are a part of it, perhaps even the biggest part of it, but not the entire story as the statistics continue to show a downward trend (shared above), especially in urban and heavily suburban areas where ridesharing is readily available at all times of day or night. Transportation is being automated, that's the big message, it's simply a question of when, the democratization of ridesharing was but phase one (as opposed to taxis of the olden days). If people can get where they want to go for 25% of the cost of owning their own transportation, in a safer manner, and with zero worries about vehicle ownerships, repairs, maintenance, etc., why wouldn't they? I realize it sounds like sci-fi - but this is all closer than many would like to think IMHO. As Tesla recently posted on X, slow at first, then all at once:

https://twitter.com/x/status/2000368582988021886

I understand the statistics and numbers

In a relatively small town (100K) with no strong transportation system

Uber, Lyft, and Taxi service is very limited

These are high school Juniors, Seniors, HS Grads in tech school

They would prefer to be at the same level as their peer group of "haves"

At least that is my experience when I am around them
Football booster rallies
Birthday Parties at Sky Zone

The future is not here yet
It will probably not be here for a while
Nobody is testing Autonomous Driving in the wilds of the Northern Farm States

These people are living in today and they would like to be driving themselves
They are priced out of the market by cost of a vehicle, maintenance, insurance, and gas

 

[HitchHiker71]

Mostly because they don't want to.

They won't want to pay 75% more for the same commoditized transportation just to "own their own vehicle." Right now that doesn't exist, because humans are required to drive the vehicles, and humans have to be paid. Robotaxi's cost on average 50% of the cost of Uber/Lyft, sometimes less, because you don't have to pay a human at all. When costs become so low that consumers save on what is the second most expensive cost throughout their lives, vehicles, then people won't buy personally owned vehicles, or if they do, it will be like people who own horses today. They do so only because they want to, for leisure, or for investments, not for transportation.

It doesn't sound sci fi . It sounds more like a centralized control over the population which is basically Communism.

Bill

Please explain how democratizing/commoditizing transportation and lowering costs for all consumers, while saving tens of thousands of lives every year that currently die in human traffic accidents, is communist? You're running out of logical arguments, so you're resorting to non-sensical arguments now. Are passenger jets communist? Rich people own private planes, but the vast majority of consumers use commercial passenger jets because they commoditize air travel. How is commoditizing road travel any different? Please explain in rational terms, while not resorting to using sensationalist claims. Tesla is a publicly held company for crying out loud, not a government owned entity by any measure. At most, one could argue we're in a monopolized economy that is increasingly consolidated, which is true, but communism just doesn't pass muster given that by definition means a state owned economies/industries/companies.

 

[geist1223]

I read an article online in which Ford said it would cease production of the Lightening Pickup Truck and would focus on Hybrids.

 

[easyrider]

They won't want to pay 75% more for the same commoditized transportation just to "own their own vehicle." Right now that doesn't exist, because humans are required to drive the vehicles, and humans have to be paid. Robotaxi's cost on average 50% of the cost of Uber/Lyft, sometimes less, because you don't have to pay a human at all. When costs become so low that consumers save on what is the second most expensive cost throughout their lives, vehicles, then people won't buy personally owned vehicles, or if they do, it will be like people who own horses today. They do so only because they want to, for leisure, or for investments, not for transportation.

Vehicles aren't the second most costly thing in a persons life. Most people, including me, buy used vehicles. The reason most people , including you, want a vehicle is the freedom it provides. On a whim you are free to go where ever.

You are assuming too much regarding fully self driving vehicles. These are probably workable in locations that already rely on taxi's , ride share and public transportation but that would be all, imo.

Please explain how democratizing/commoditizing transportation and lowering costs for all consumers, while saving tens of thousands of lives every year that currently die in human traffic accidents, is communist? You're running out of logical arguments, so you're resorting to non-sensical arguments now. Are passenger jets communist? Rich people own private planes, but the vast majority of consumers use commercial passenger jets because they commoditize air travel. How is commoditizing road travel any different? Please explain in rational terms, while not resorting to using sensationalist claims.

What you are talking about is taking away a privileged freedom and replacing it with a product that is no longer a privileged freedom. What you are talking about strips away a persons freedom of anonymity while traveling because of the data collected. The data collected can be used against the individual. This is considered a centralized control measure.

Communist country's use centralized control measures. In China, all ev's provide data to a centralized data collection which the government can use to punish behavior it doesn't like. Why don't you ask grok how data can be used against a person in China.

Yes, I know people with private jets and they can fly anonymous. It's one of the privileges of owning or renting space on a private jet.

I'm not sure why you are hyperbolizing my statements as sensationalist. It doesn't make your arguments any stronger.

Bill

 

[emeryjre]

They won't want to pay 75% more for the same commoditized transportation just to "own their own vehicle." Right now that doesn't exist, because humans are required to drive the vehicles, and humans have to be paid. Robotaxi's cost on average 50% of the cost of Uber/Lyft, sometimes less, because you don't have to pay a human at all. When costs become so low that consumers save on what is the second most expensive cost throughout their lives, vehicles, then people won't buy personally owned vehicles, or if they do, it will be like people who own horses today. They do so only because they want to, for leisure, or for investments, not for transportation.

Please explain how democratizing/commoditizing transportation and lowering costs for all consumers, while saving tens of thousands of lives every year that currently die in human traffic accidents, is communist? You're running out of logical arguments, so you're resorting to non-sensical arguments now. Are passenger jets communist? Rich people own private planes, but the vast majority of consumers use commercial passenger jets because they commoditize air travel. How is commoditizing road travel any different? Please explain in rational terms, while not resorting to using sensationalist claims. Tesla is a publicly held company for crying out loud, not a government owned entity by any measure. At most, one could argue we're in a monopolized economy that is increasingly consolidated, which is true, but communism just doesn't pass muster given that by definition means a state owned economies/industries/companies.

Liberal Commie Plot for sure

We are sometime away from people no longer cruising A1A in their truly fast and exotic cars
Doing the loop from Las Olas Ave to Sunrise Blvd in Fort Lauderdale
Popping off the turbos wastegate between the high rises on the inland waterway side of A1A
The sound echoing up and down the street and into the thousands of condos

A pastime for a couple of hours watching the cruisers on a Sunday afternoon
Watching from a bar fronting the beach at Beach Place Towers drinking Coronas

The love of driving for fun and sport is not going to disappear overnight
The sound of an F1 car at 10K RPM is unmatched

Most people do not even know there is an electric car series
Or care at this point

 

[Brett]

Liberal Commie Plot for sure

We are sometime away from people no longer cruising A1A in their truly fast and exotic cars
Doing the loop from Las Olas Ave to Sunrise Blvd in Fort Lauderdale
Popping off the turbos wastegate between the high rises on the inland waterway side of A1A
The sound echoing up and down the street and into the thousands of condos

A pastime for a couple of hours watching the cruisers on a Sunday afternoon
Watching from a bar fronting the beach at Beach Place Towers drinking Coronas

The love of driving for fun and sport is not going to disappear overnight
The sound of an F1 car at 10K RPM is unmatched

Most people do not even know there is an electric car series
Or care at this point

Alex, I'll take "Liberal Commie Plot" for $200

 

[Ken555]

Alex, I'll take "Liberal Commie Plot" for $200

Answer: “Despite conspiracy theories, this Republican-led state leads the nation in EV charging stations and has attracted over $10 billion in EV manufacturing investments.”

 

[davidvel]

Hacking is one way. Great way to kidnap somebody.The government (at any level) could make certain areas "no go" zones, or could "request" you presence. Or lots of other things.

One thing is certain, every movement of the car will be tracked, for good or ill. That's what you are signing on for with full FSD convenience. I've watched the human race over many years - one thing I have determined - they're not all goody two shoes. . .

Most new ICE vehicles are connected and can be tracked, and hacked. You can also place a real tracker on any type of vehicle.

You have completely made up that a Tesla or other fully autonomous vehicle can be hacked to drive it somewhere, seems like you think TV crime episodes are reality. No evidence of this to date. Sounds like more paranoia here.

 

[Ralph Sir Edward]

One man's prudence is another man's paranoia. I merely note that with Tesla's FSD, you are ceded all control to the central computer net. If you are happy with that, OK by me. No skin off my nose. I merely want you to be aware of that.

I'm still driving a 2012 Hundai, pre tracker, I believe

 

[buzglyd]

One man's prudence is another man's paranoia. I merely note that with Tesla's FSD, you are ceded all control to the central computer net. If you are happy with that, OK by me. No skin off my nose. I merely want you to be aware of that.

I'm still driving a 2012 Hundai, pre tracker, I believe

It’s called the “take my wife, please” mode.

 

[HitchHiker71]

One man's prudence is another man's paranoia. I merely note that with Tesla's FSD, you are ceded all control to the central computer net. If you are happy with that, OK by me. No skin off my nose. I merely want you to be aware of that.

I'm still driving a 2012 Hundai, pre tracker, I believe

Uh, you just basically described how every computer network on earth works LOL. Ever heard of big data? The MAG7 companies run the world via big data. Data is already largely "centralized" whether you realize it or not - though it's really distributed not centralized - it's just tied together using advanced indexing technologies that allow us all to search "the cloud" via various search engines. That said, technically what you said, today, doesn't hold water, as FSD is only a L2 ADAS system that you control, turn on/off, at your discretion, so no control is in point of fact ceded, given the human is always responsible for paying attention and is fully liable for whatever occurs when using the L2 ADAS system.

Once FSD gets up to L3/L4 level, then your point holds water, however even then, you still have control over whether you want to drive your personally owned vehicle or have FSD drive on your behalf, the primary difference being you will no longer be held liable if the vehicle gets into an accident when the L4 (not sure on L3 - depends on how liability is worked out) system is in control of the vehicle. This is where it's prudent to point out the fact that FSD is already 7x safer, right now today, than a human driver, going to 10x in 2026 and 20x+ into 2027. That should matter to us all, given none of us should want people dying unnecessarily in traffic accidents to the tune of 40-50k people per year, with 10x that amount in non-fatal injuries that often take months or years to fully heal from, if ever. I'm all for personal freedoms, but at the same time, the greater good cannot simply be ignored in the process.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Alex, I'll take "Liberal Commie Plot" for $200

It's simply a "move the goal posts" type response, because he doesn't have a cogent argument otherwise.

 

[Ralph Sir Edward]

Uh, you just basically described how every computer network on earth works LOL. Ever heard of big data? The MAG7 companies run the world via big data. Data is already largely "centralized" whether you realize it or not - though it's really distributed not centralized - it's just tied together using advanced indexing technologies that allow us all to search "the cloud" via various search engines. That said, technically what you said, today, doesn't hold water, as FSD is only a L2 ADAS system that you control, turn on/off, at your discretion, so no control is in point of fact ceded, given the human is always responsible for paying attention and is fully liable for whatever occurs when using the L2 ADAS system.

Once FSD gets up to L3/L4 level, then your point holds water, however even then, you still have control over whether you want to drive your personally owned vehicle or have FSD drive on your behalf, the primary difference being you will no longer be held liable if the vehicle gets into an accident when the L4 (not sure on L3 - depends on how liability is worked out) system is in control of the vehicle. This is where it's prudent to point out the fact that FSD is already 7x safer, right now today, than a human driver, going to 10x in 2026 and 20x+ into 2027. That should matter to us all, given none of us should want people dying unnecessarily in traffic accidents to the tune of 40-50k people per year, with 10x that amount in non-fatal injuries that often take months or years to fully heal from, if ever. I'm all for personal freedoms, but at the same time, the greater good cannot simply be ignored in the process.

HitchHiker71, I was a professional computer programmer for nearly 40 years. I am very aware of "big data". But I don't see the need to add my personal data to it indiscriminately, obviously you don't care. To each their own.

 

[easyrider]

Most new ICE vehicles are connected and can be tracked, and hacked. You can also place a real tracker on any type of vehicle.

You have completely made up that a Tesla or other fully autonomous vehicle can be hacked to drive it somewhere, seems like you think TV crime episodes are reality. No evidence of this to date. Sounds like more paranoia here.

It's simply a "move the goal posts" type response, because he doesn't have a cogent argument otherwise.

What I said about ev's tracking data and mandatory data tracking is a fact in China. In China, the government has a kill switch that can turn off many electronic devices.

Certainly, any vehicle can be tracked in the USA but supposedly our government only allows this with a court order for it to be legal or if it's a non-owned vehicle used for business. Private vehicles fall under the 4th Amendment protections.

The earlier scenario I postulated was how does a vehicle determined who lives in an unavoidable accident that results in a loss of human life ? It is morally unethical to allow a machine to make this decision and any decision that does allow AI to decide this opens the door for AI to decide everything. With the new quantum chips , AI could decide these types of situations based on programming in a fraction of a second. Is the decision based on net worth, employment status or whatever AI decides ?

These are just the tip of the legal arguments that will hamper how AI is used. Self driving cars are a form of AI so expect these to be included in the USA.

Bill

 

[HitchHiker71]

HitchHiker71, I was a professional computer programmer for nearly 40 years. I am very aware of "big data". But I don't see the need to add my personal data to it indiscriminately, obviously you don't care. To each their own.

Your data is likely already there, that’s kinda my point, whether you realize it or not. Companies sell data constantly - it’s buried in small print in the dozens of pages of T&Cs that almost everyone just clicks “agree” to when signing up for any online access.

The only exceptions are certain regulated industries such as fiserv or healthcare - and even those have loopholes that the big firms use to their advantage. The only difference between the two of us is I already know this, however you seem to believe otherwise. As you say, to each their own.


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[easyrider]

It's simply a "move the goal posts" type response, because he doesn't have a cogent argument otherwise.

Maybe the biggest problem facing mass deployment of fully self driving vehicles is the electricity needed. AI has hit a power ceiling. Every AI break through requires more data servers, computational resources and infrastructure. The solution could be quantum computing but the problem with this is quantum computing is way beyond human intelligence, imo.

It could come down to a persons ability to use electricity over mass AI driven ev's because currently there isn't enough electricity for both.

Bill

 

[HitchHiker71]

Maybe the biggest problem facing mass deployment of fully self driving vehicles is the electricity needed. AI has hit a power ceiling. Every AI break through requires more data servers, computational resources and infrastructure. The solution could be quantum computing but the problem with this is quantum computing is way beyond human intelligence, imo.

It could come down to a persons ability to use electricity over mass AI driven ev's because currently there isn't enough electricity for both.

Bill

If you're paying attention at all to where AI datacenters are headed - the answer is into space via orbital satellites that are powered 100% via solar and battery. SpaceX and xAI already have a leadership position in deployment of satellite networks for data and compute - there are 9400 of them orbiting earth today for Starlink, roughly 8100 of which are providing live service at any one moment in time. This is the easy solution for the NIMBY issue, since there's plenty of room in space and endless power from the sun. All 9400 of the Starlink satellites are 100% solar/battery powered, so the proof is right there since this and many other satellite networks deployed for various purposes already exist and have proven very reliable over the long term (satellite TV is another example) - 9400 of them for Starlink alone already in place providing worldwide data access from virtually anywhere on the planet. All of the MAG7 companies are spending billions to deploy space-based datacenters now. This is the future for space travel as well, to enable large scale interplanetary data transmissions - to/from the moon and Mars.

 

[Ralph Sir Edward]

Your data is likely already there, that’s kinda my point, whether you realize it or not. Companies sell data constantly - it’s buried in small print in the dozens of pages of T&Cs that almost everyone just clicks “agree” to when signing up for any online access.

The only exceptions are certain regulated industries such as fiserv or healthcare - and even those have loopholes that the big firms use to their advantage. The only difference between the two of us is I already know this, however you seem to believe otherwise. As you say, to each their own.


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Which data and how much? Yes, there is a lot of data on me out there. But not everything. Example - what music I listen to, where and when. I don't listen to music except on non-connected devices. I don't stream, I own CDs, which I rip down to my "sterile" computer. (Sterile, no external communication devices other than occasional USB drives.) I run twin computers, one dirty (connected - the one I'm writing with right now), and one sterile - with a keyboard, mouse and video switcher, and a separate audio switcher to a class D amp and speakers. Much of my personal entertainment is done in the same manner. I don't "live my life" on a smart phone. I run Linux on both computers, with no "phone home" software. Paranoid? Shrug. It suits me. . .

 

[dagger1]

Very interesting thread. Can the Tesla FSD system be licensed by a competitor, say Toyota, and ice or hev vehicles be equipped with this? Don’t think available now, but could this be a possibility in the future? Huge income stream for Tesla…

 

[easyrider]

the answer is into space

Your post reminded me of the Vidanta presentation where I was offered a pre-construction unit on the Space Luxxe.

Bill

 

[emeryjre]

Very interesting thread. Can the Tesla FSD system be licensed by a competitor, say Toyota, and ice or hev vehicles be equipped with this? Don’t think available now, but could this be a possibility in the future? Huge income stream for Tesla…

The licensing of Full Self Driving Technology is a target market for several large corporations
The two largest planning entry into this market
Nvidia (you probably have heard of them)

Waymo (Which is Google, another company you have probably heard off)

Then there is Tesla, the current leader

If you read some prior posts, you will see some debate about which company is leading the pack and who will be the leader in licensing the technology

Some here believe it will be a Tesla dominated market forever

 

[Carolinian]

Ford's $35.1 Billion EV Fiasco

Felony stupid in Dearborn.

robertbryce.substack.com

 

[emeryjre]

This is a company I have been following for a while

Direct Lithium Extraction from underground Brine is the path to low cost and environmentally friendly lithium supplies

There is no hard rock mining and the destruction of the local ecosystem

The Salton Sea area in California is a treasure trove of underground Lithium

Old gas and oil producing areas are also sources of the Lithium rich brine

Lilac Announces Successful Completion of Lithium Pilot with Neptune…

Pilot demonstrates Lilac IX technology on oil and gas brine with on-site production of battery-grade lithium carbonate OAKLAND, Calif., Dec. 18, 2025 —…

lilacsolutions.com

 

[emeryjre]

Ford's $35.1 Billion EV Fiasco

Felony stupid in Dearborn.

robertbryce.substack.com

Jim Farley (Ford CEO)
Mary Barra (GM CEO)
saw Elon Musk become the wealthiest individual in the world

Building Cars

They thought it must be easy

As has been the case for as long as I can remember

The American Car Industry was not adept or smart enough to pull it off

Watch the movie Ford Vs Ferrari for a classic example of the American Carmakers corporate ineptness

The only reason the GT40 ever won at Lemans was Carrol Shelby and Ken Miles (and they hated Ken Miles)

 

[HitchHiker71]

Very interesting thread. Can the Tesla FSD system be licensed by a competitor, say Toyota, and ice or hev vehicles be equipped with this? Don’t think available now, but could this be a possibility in the future? Huge income stream for Tesla…

Yes, Tesla is open to licensing FSD to volume players. Musk has gone on record repeatedly about the desire to do so and been in negotiations to do so however the asks coming from legacy automakers were simply out of kilter with reality and therefore those negotiations did not result in a path forward that worked well for both parties. He also recently went on record that he would only consider licensing FSD to volume players, like a Toyota or a Honda or GM or Ford, vs niche players with small production output, like Rivian today for example.

The major challenge is that FSD has to be able to control all driving systems in the vehicle via a single integrated system. Given Tesla’s vertical integration and SDV first principles design approach, this is how FSD is designed to work, but most legacy manufacturers farm out all parts builds and system designs and therefore the average ICE vehicle literally has 150 different chips in it from different suppliers each using their own firmware and programming, none of which talk to each other natively. This presents a lot of challenges when trying to adopt the FSD tech stack. My understanding is that this was the big sticking point when negotiating with legacy manufacturers and ultimately explains the failure of the negotiations. The legacy manufacturers wanted Tesla to build integration with hundreds of disparate supplier chipsets that they use for control of various driving systems. This type of vertical integration isn’t something the legacy manufacturers want to adapt to and migrate toward, and Tesla isn’t interested in “doing their jobs for them” in essence. Eventually as self driving takes over in the marketplace and traditional vehicle sales wane significantly, these legacy manufacturers may wake up to what’s actually transpiring in the marketplace, but it may be too little too late by then. Why? From what I’ve read on this topic, basically it takes 2-3 years to integrate any FSD system into an existing vehicle design and to perform the required system integrations, neural network training, etc. So even if a legacy manufacturer were to ink a deal today, it’ll likely be three years before we would see FSD become available in the next design iteration of the models they decided to offer this system on. That’s a long time when we consider FSD is likely to become L3/L4 on Tesla vehicles in 2026.

Now, as others have said, not everyone is going to run out and buy a Tesla even if this occurs in 2026, but almost assuredly a lot more folks will consider doing so than ever before when their vehicle will drive them wherever they want to go, whenever they want to go, at any time of day or night, while they do whatever they want. While detractors talk about how these systems are centralized in nature, and falsely attempt to conflate them as communistic, the reality is that what an autonomous system really delivers is the FREEDOM to do whatever you want while the vehicle transits you anywhere. FSD tech enhances individual freedoms. Want to sit in the back seat and sleep? Go ahead. Watch a movie or catch up on the latest episode of your favorite show? Go ahead. Read? Work? Be my guest. Anything really. Have your drivers license revoked for some reason? Who cares. Get too frail or too old to drive yourself? Who cares when your car, or a robotaxi, will take you anywhere you want to go. Blind or deaf? No longer an issue - you don’t lose personal mobility. Disabled in some manner? No problem. Can’t get to school to pick up your child in time? Send a driverless vehicle that will take them straight home or bring them straight to you. This is all freedom of choice to me. I get to do whatever I want to do with my time in transit, regardless of disability or age or any other category. This is the future. I see it plain as day, and it sure is attractive to me at least.

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