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You're Being Lied to About Electric Cars

Turns out building SDVs profitably isn't nearly as easy as everyone predicted (though those of us who actually know something about this topic have been saying this all along of course). I LOL'd at all of the articles over the past few years saying how GM would take over the BEV space within a few years. How long until GM makes the same move Ford just did?

The Tesla moat indeed remains strong, again, as those of us who follow this segment closely have been saying all along. The legacy manufacturers cannot do it, at least here in the US, they gave it the old college try using the same tired old supplier based approaches for vehicle assembly, spending tens of billions in the process, only to come to the same inevitable conclusion that I've been saying on here for years now - they won't be able to do it using the same tired old engineering processes used for the past 50+ years. Building electrified vehicles using a core ICE design simply doesn't work. What Ford just announced is living proof of this fact.

IMHO the long-term impacts of these decisions will eventually result in the demise of legacy big auto here in the US, and no I'm not exaggerating, at least in their current form as those who build ever better BEVs continue to eat away at legacy auto market share. It won't happen tomorrow, but five years out from today, let's check back in and see where things stand - think back five years ago and see just how different things were in 2020 as but one real world example. Tesla is pushing ahead faster than ever now, with FSD Unsupervised in testing in Austin as we speak (several robotaxis are actively on the roads now with no safety monitor in the vehicle). Driverless vehicles are on the horizon, and the world will never be the same, not if but when they take hold. Those who argue that legacy autos can do the same thing, nope, they cannot, because of their lack of vertical integration that prevents all systems within the vehicle being homogenized and all controlled via one centralized computer via CPU/software - hence the term SDV. Ford gave up. Is GM next? Only time will tell.
If Tesl;a had built a more traditional looking vehicle to go after the truck segment
They could have really bit into the truck segment
The Cyber Truck has limited appeal because of its appearance and price
It is not a "bad" vehicle, just a love it or hate it look
 
If Tesl;a had built a more traditional looking vehicle to go after the truck segment
They could have really bit into the truck segment
The Cyber Truck has limited appeal because of its appearance and price
It is not a "bad" vehicle, just a love it or hate it look

Absolutely. What a horrible design.
 
IMHO the long-term impacts of these decisions will eventually result in the demise of legacy big auto here in the US, and no I'm not exaggerating, at least in their current form as those who build ever better BEVs continue to eat away at legacy auto market share.

Maybe. I'm thinking the USA is returning to ice vehicles in a big way for many reasons. One of those reasons is Ford and GM are legacy manufacturers in the USA and the country needs reliable vehicles for industry, war and public services.

While ev's are decent for personal travel, they really aren't there yet for many full time or heavy load uses. This could change. I read that Samsung has developed a new solid state silver anode battery that charges fast and has long range with no problems of exploding.

Even with better batteries , something has to be done with the engineering of some of these ev's. More robust wiring and electrical connections that won't short out an EV with a bottled water spill are needed for some ev's.

Bill
 
I'm thinking the USA is returning to ice vehicles in a big way for many reasons.


Nope. They're returning to ICE because they didn't learn how to make EVs efficiently, and now that they have pro-emissions governmental policies again, they don't have to.
 
If Tesl;a had built a more traditional looking vehicle to go after the truck segment
They could have really bit into the truck segment
The Cyber Truck has limited appeal because of its appearance and price
It is not a "bad" vehicle, just a love it or hate it look

I'm not a fan of the Cyber Truck design either. I'm more of a fan of the 90's box look with a diesel engine like a Cumings or 7.3 liter Ford. My favorite look for a pick up truck is the 99 Chevy Silverado 2500 4x4 extended cab with a full sized bed. I had one of those with the 7.4 liter engine back then.

Bill
 
Nope. They're returning to ICE because they didn't learn how to make EVs efficiently, and now that they have pro-emissions governmental policies again, they don't have to.

Those are valid reasons.

Bill
 
If Tesl;a had built a more traditional looking vehicle to go after the truck segment
They could have really bit into the truck segment
The Cyber Truck has limited appeal because of its appearance and price
It is not a "bad" vehicle, just a love it or hate it look
Ford just pulled the plug on the F-150. It was traditional looking and a massive money loser.
 
Ford just pulled the plug on the F-150. It was traditional looking and a massive money loser.
Ford 150 Lightning was not a Tesla
I went into a Ford Dealership to look at a Lighting
Nobody wanted to talk to me
I was finally able to get the GM to come out to the floor and open it up
He knew nothing about it
They didn't care about selling the vehicle
Period

2 weeks ago I went into a GMC dealer to see what they were doing with their Sierra EV
It was parked in the back
No charge on the battery
Couldn't find the key

There is/was no dealer support at Ford or GM for these vehicles
Without dealer support
They will NEVER sell a vehicle

I might have bought the Sierra at the right price
(I am "never a Ford" guy)
But without dealer support and there is a problem
I have a 55K giant flashlight that sits there
 
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Well I guess my lightning will be my first and last Ford. Everybody has different priorities, but a big selling point for me was not having to maintain an ICE engine (and all of the complexity/repairs that comes along with that).

Anybody want to speculate on what the used Lightning market will react? Probably a meaningful drop in value? I'm a switch vehicles every 2-3 years kind of guy, but I might just have to keep the Lightning until it croaks since I don't see an alternative that fits my needs.
 
Well I guess my lightning will be my first and last Ford. Everybody has different priorities, but a big selling point for me was not having to maintain an ICE engine (and all of the complexity/repairs that comes along with that).

Anybody want to speculate on what the used Lightning market will react? Probably a meaningful drop in value? I'm a switch vehicles every 2-3 years kind of guy, but I might just have to keep the Lightning until it croaks since I don't see an alternative that fits my needs.

You might be able to Lemon Law a Ford Lightning back. You wouldn't be the first one doing this.

Bill

 
Why/how would I try to lemon law a vehicle that I’ve had absolutely no problems with?

You wouldn't is the short answer.

Bill
 
If Tesl;a had built a more traditional looking vehicle to go after the truck segment
They could have really bit into the truck segment
The Cyber Truck has limited appeal because of its appearance and price
It is not a "bad" vehicle, just a love it or hate it look

- a more mainstream design would likely sell better - though the high price is also a big part of why the current version doesn’t sell. Same reason the F150L is being discontinued, price is too high. Likely the same reason GM will eventually cut their EV pickups.


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- a more mainstream design would likely sell better - though the high price is also a big part of why the current version doesn’t sell. Same reason the F150L is being discontinued, price is too high. Likely the same reason GM will eventually cut their EV pickups.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
People pay 80K to 100K for Ford and GM pickups all day
Every day
Ford and GM had a small group that were enthusiasts about EVs
This included some dealers
Overall Ford and GM dealers never got behind them

The Ford Dealer I went to has over 200 new pickups on the ground
The GMC Dealer I went to has over 60 new pickups on the ground

I came on the lot in a GMC Denali Pickup owned by my BIL
These dealers displayed disdain for the EV versions when I went in to talk with them

Elon is liked by many pickup owners

Tesla narrowed the field of potential truck buyers with the design
I do not believe the price was the major issue for a truck buyer
 
Maybe. I'm thinking the USA is returning to ice vehicles in a big way for many reasons. One of those reasons is Ford and GM are legacy manufacturers in the USA and the country needs reliable vehicles for industry, war and public services.

While ev's are decent for personal travel, they really aren't there yet for many full time or heavy load uses. This could change. I read that Samsung has developed a new solid state silver anode battery that charges fast and has long range with no problems of exploding.

Even with better batteries , something has to be done with the engineering of some of these ev's. More robust wiring and electrical connections that won't short out an EV with a bottled water spill are needed for some ev's.

Bill

Tesla vehicles excepted since the vehicles shorting out were designed and built by ICE companies trying to build BEVs, not SDVs.

So essentially, per the examples you provided, the legacy automakers will become edge case husks of what they once were. Every use case you just listed is a small minority of overall vehicle usage. 80-90% of vehicle usage is for daily commuting and errands - exactly what BEVs excel at. Like I said, five years out from today, let’s see where things stand with autonomous Tesla vehicles going wide in 2026.


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Tesla vehicles excepted since the vehicles shorting out were designed and built by ICE companies trying to build BEVs, not SDVs.

So essentially, per the examples you provided, the legacy automakers will become edge case husks of what they once were. Every use case you just listed is a small minority of overall vehicle usage. 80-90% of vehicle usage is for daily commuting and errands - exactly what BEVs excel at. Like I said, five years out from today, let’s see where things stand with autonomous Tesla vehicles going wide in 2026.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I can see your point and you could be right in regards to daily commuting but not everyone is going to want to drive the same thing in the same seven colors or just drive around the same area . Or maybe they will. It could be a generational thing that I'm not aware of.

I kind of have doubts that fully autonomous driving will ever be fully legal. One of the issues I heard , which I admit sounds sci-fi- ish, is what would a fully autonomous vehicle do in a scenario of getting into an unavoidable wreck which would kill the occupants or kill bystanders. The car makes the choice. Who would be liable ? Would it be considered manslaughter or murder ? With fully autonomous vehicles this type of scenario will eventually become a reality.

To me, using ev's for anything other than around town transportation doesn't make sense for many reasons. One big reason is it's just too much of an inconvenience to find a place to charge compared to going to a gas station, which are located on every major intersection.

Bill
 
IMG_4867.jpg

The truck Tesla got right - going into mass production in 2026. FSD autonomy coming soon for 18 wheelers as well.


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The problem with the legacy manufacturers trying to make EV is that they tried to make replacements for their comparable ICE models. Had they targeted a small 4-door and pickup with ~100 miles of range for MSRP of sub $30k, I think they could have grabbed at least a toe hold. Think Ford Maverick and/or Chevy Bolt size with smaller, less expensive battery pack. I haven't looked recently, but Ford was selling the hybrid Maverick like crazy.

Sent from my Pixel 9a using Tapatalk
 
GM has certainly had its' share of problems with Pickups/SUVs using the 6.2L engine

Recent GM pickups—especially 2019–2024 Silverado and Sierra models with the 6.2‑liter V8 (L87)—have been plagued by bearing failures, crankshaft defects, and connecting rod issues that can cause sudden engine seizure, loss of power, or even fires. GM has recalled nearly 600,000 trucks and SUVs, and federal investigations are ongoing.
 
GM has certainly had its' share of problems with Pickups/SUVs using the 6.2L engine

Recent GM pickups—especially 2019–2024 Silverado and Sierra models with the 6.2‑liter V8 (L87)—have been plagued by bearing failures, crankshaft defects, and connecting rod issues that can cause sudden engine seizure, loss of power, or even fires. GM has recalled nearly 600,000 trucks and SUVs, and federal investigations are ongoing.

Yup, it's a real mess. Most suv's and trucks are plagued with problems. Even Toyota is having problems. Most of these problems are due to meeting emission and mileage standards.

I did rent a new Jeep Rubicon with a turbo four cylinder engine in Moab. I didn't like it. It would accelerate as the turbo kicked in on obstacles was the main reason. It was kind of fun in the sand though. Anyway, these are plagued with problems too.

Bill
 
The truck Tesla got right - going into mass production in 2026. FSD autonomy coming soon for 18 wheelers as well.

Maybe. My bet is it gets kicked back a year, then given an arrival date, then get kicked back another year.

Bill
 
brit.jpg


https://www.nytimes.com/2025/12/17/business/britain-china-cars-byd.html


“Some people have the perception that because it's Chinese it’s going to be made cheaply,” he said. But then, he would ask them, “Where do you think your iPhone is assembled?”

Chinese cars are rapidly gaining ground in Britain, driven by a combination of factors. The lack of steep tariffs on Chinese electric vehicles — unlike in the European Union or the United States, where officials see the levies as a way to protect domestic production — means the cars can be sold in Britain at better prices. And British car buyers are not particularly loyal to brands, with no major mass-market British carmaker to support.

Last month, roughly a dozen Chinese automakers, like BYD, Chery and Geely, accounted for 13 percent of new car registrations in Britain, roughly double their market share a year ago
 
I can see your point and you could be right in regards to daily commuting but not everyone is going to want to drive the same thing in the same seven colors or just drive around the same area . Or maybe they will. It could be a generational thing that I'm not aware of.

The younger generations don’t equate driving with freedom or enjoyment nearly as much as the older generations do according to surveys. They see it as a commodity item and typically want to get from point A to point B in the least expensive option possible, especially given the rising costs of everything else in their lives that they place more importance on. There are always exceptions, for example my eldest son is a car hound, mostly because I am a car hound, so he picked that up from me during his teenage years. My younger son not so much though. Just two anecdotal examples.

I kind of have doubts that fully autonomous driving will ever be fully legal. One of the issues I heard , which I admit sounds sci-fi- ish, is what would a fully autonomous vehicle do in a scenario of getting into an unavoidable wreck which would kill the occupants or kill bystanders. The car makes the choice. Who would be liable ? Would it be considered manslaughter or murder ? With fully autonomous vehicles this type of scenario will eventually become a reality.

This is state law driven. Many states already have autonomous driving laws on the books. Tesla is already approved for autonomous driverless vehicles in the states in which they are deploying robotaxi’s. This includes but is not limited to parts of California, the entire state of Texas, Nevada, Florida (in process), and many others. The answer on liability, while nuanced as others have pointed out, has a simple answer, the owner of the autonomous software is held responsible if/when the L4/L5 system is in use.

To me, using ev's for anything other than around town transportation doesn't make sense for many reasons. One big reason is it's just too much of an inconvenience to find a place to charge compared to going to a gas station, which are located on every major intersection.

Bill

I get it. For us it’s not even an issue. We don’t drive any more when using the Tesla - the car drives itself. I just checked our FSD stats last night and since installing 14.2 a few weeks ago now, the car has driven 630 miles, 97% of which was with FSD. So 612 out of 630 miles driven. Impressive really. Many have that number at 100%, others less so. Point being, this is real world. Our car that we own drives itself almost 100% of the time. This is where we are with this tech, whether people realize it or not. If you had told me a year ago this is where we would be, I would have argued against it myself. With regard to charging, the car drives itself to the charger, why would anyone care where the charger is located? We don’t. It even backs itself into the parking space at the charger - literally zero intervention. I realize for anyone who hasn’t experienced this it’s hard to really believe, until you experience it firsthand. Next year, we will almost assuredly get L4 for robotaxi’s and L3 for consumer vehicles, then the car is literally driving itself with no need to pay attention and supervise. Again, a year ago I would have argued this wasn’t possible so soon, but looking at our own numbers at 97% in my wife’s daily driver, whom is not a Tesla aficionado like me, she’s just a normal married woman who is a nurse and literally has chosen all on her own to use FSD every day to/from work and for all errands. Again, impressive to me. This is where we are now. The world is going to change faster than many think IMHO.


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