You're Being Lied to About Electric Cars

[HitchHiker71]

People pay 80K to 100K for Ford and GM pickups all day
Every day
Ford and GM had a small group that were enthusiasts about EVs
This included some dealers
Overall Ford and GM dealers never got behind them

The Ford Dealer I went to has over 200 new pickups on the ground
The GMC Dealer I went to has over 60 new pickups on the ground

I came on the lot in a GMC Denali Pickup owned by my BIL
These dealers displayed disdain for the EV versions when I went in to talk with them

Elon is liked by many pickup owners

Tesla narrowed the field of potential truck buyers with the design
I do not believe the price was the major issue for a truck buyer

Yes but if you look at the average selling price of new pickups, the more expensive models are very much in the minority of sales volume. These are termed the luxury models. The mid-level and lower level trims are where the sales volume comes from. The ATP for the F150 was around $67k in 2024, but the median price when taking into account volumes is around $52.5k. That’s a far cry from the CT starting price of $80k, so yes price is a bigger factor than many think. Yes the design is undoubtedly polarizing, but price is also a significant barrier. It is for me as well. If I could obtain a wrapped CT for $50-55k, it would be something I would consider, which is why I’m waiting a few years for used prices to come down.


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[Ralph Sir Edward]

RE: FSD

I have to stick my cynical oar in on this. Question: Who is actually deciding where the car is going? You or the FSD?

 

[HitchHiker71]

Maybe. My bet is it gets kicked back a year, then given an arrival date, then get kicked back another year.

Bill

The production factory is being built now and will be complete by early next year. Tesla doesn’t build large factories until the vehicle is ready for mass production. Dozens of businesses have been testing Semi for the past two years, Fortune 500 businesses, and these were real world pre-production tests making real world deliveries on real world routes every day.

That phase is over, mass production starts in 2026, after which the entire trucking industry will be disrupted moving into 2027 and beyond.


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[HitchHiker71]

RE: FSD

I have to stick my cynical oar in on this. Question: Who is actually deciding where the car is going? You or the FSD?

The Tesla navigation system of course. FSD requires route navigation. You simply talk to the car and tell it where you want to go - simple as that - or you can use the screen to provide the destination(s), whichever you prefer - you can also use the Tesla mobile app to plan and choose various destinations and send them to your car OTA - or you can use mobile map apps such as Apple Maps or Google Maps and then send those pins/destinations to the Tesla app via the "Share" function within your preferred map app, which in turn sends them to your Tesla.

Watch the video in this link for a real-world example of how easy it is to use Grok to create your routes - and then either drive yourself - or have FSD drive you to the destination(s):

https://twitter.com/x/status/1999742756730925184

Again, this is real world, here in every Tesla today. This is how every Tesla owner with FSD routes their car today. Yes, it is this easy. Yes, this is using Grok AI to listen and understand the human and input navigation routes on the fly in real time.


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[Cornell]

The Tesla navigation system of course. FSD requires route navigation. You simply talk to the car and tell it where you want to go - simple as that - or you can use the screen to provide the destination(s), whichever you prefer - you can also use the Tesla mobile app to plan and choose various destinations and send them to your car OTA - or you can use mobile map apps such as Apple Maps or Google Maps and then send those pins/destinations to the Tesla app via the "Share" function within your preferred map app, which in turn sends them to your Tesla.

Watch the video in this link for a real-world example of how easy it is to use Grok to create your routes - and then either drive yourself - or have FSD drive you to the destination(s):

https://twitter.com/x/status/1999742756730925184

Again, this is real world, here in every Tesla today. This is how every Tesla owner with FSD routes their car today. Yes, it is this easy. Yes, this is using Grok AI to listen and understand the human and input navigation routes on the fly in real time.


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You can also search for a destination on your phone while not in the car, then send that destination to your Tesla. When you get in your car, you are ready to go.

 

[emeryjre]

Yes but if you look at the average selling price of new pickups, the more expensive models are very much in the minority of sales volume. These are termed the luxury models. The mid-level and lower level trims are where the sales volume comes from. The ATP for the F150 was around $67k in 2024, but the median price when taking into account volumes is around $52.5k. That’s a far cry from the CT starting price of $80k, so yes price is a bigger factor than many think. Yes the design is undoubtedly polarizing, but price is also a significant barrier. It is for me as well. If I could obtain a wrapped CT for $50-55k, it would be something I would consider, which is why I’m waiting a few years for used prices to come down.


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You are correct about your numbers

My location of second home skews my view

Everyone I know in this area has paid at least 80K or more for their pickup
Nobody goes with the small engines
They are all 4 Doors
They all have 4WD

Median price is far lower because of fleet and commercial sales (IMHO)
The Utility Company drives Standard Cab 4WD with V8s
Same for the City/County

I have never seen a CT with ND plates though

 

[HitchHiker71]

You are correct about your numbers

My location of second home skews my view

Everyone I know in this area has paid at least 80K or more for their pickup
Nobody goes with the small engines
They are all 4 Doors
They all have 4WD

Median price is far lower because of fleet and commercial sales (IMHO)
The Utility Company drives Standard Cab 4WD with V8s
Same for the City/County

I have never seen a CT with ND plates though

Actually the median price is lower because the best-selling F150 trim is the mid-level XLT trim at around 40% of all F-series sales. Fleet comes in second between 30-40% with the lower trim XL and STX models across the entirety of the F-series pickups. The Lariat and higher models make up the remaining 25-35% of sales volume. The trim volume sales numbers decrease with each higher time - from Lariat on up. The King Ranch and other high end models comprise a very small amount of the overall volume of F-series sales given their very high price points, which reinforces the same challenges that the F150L faced on some level, along with the CT and the GM EV pickups. I'm sure there's a dealer component as mentioned as well, however the pure EV companies don't leverage the legacy dealership models, so that's not in play for companies like Tesla or Rivian for example.

Rivian is actually another good example, the primary limiting factor for Rivian volume sales is price. The vehicles look pretty normal - the R1T is actually a mid-sized EV pickup, and the R1S is a three row SUV. Both start around $80k though, and therefore Rivian continues to see relatively low sales volumes for both models, which is why they are pushing as quickly as they can to bring the R2 to market, which supposedly will start around $45k if the initial prices hold - though the initial models released will likely be the higher end models that are priced in the $55-60k range, which is certainly better than $80k+, but not $45k as initially promised. Tesla took a similar approach with the M3, releasing the higher trim models first, and then gradually working toward cheaper trims in the $35k range.

 

[emeryjre]

Ok
But is the CT a consideration for those upper end buyers
They are spending the money
But not on CT

We do have Rivians in ND

 

[Ralph Sir Edward]

The Tesla navigation system of course. FSD requires route navigation. You simply talk to the car and tell it where you want to go - simple as that - or you can use the screen to provide the destination(s), whichever you prefer - you can also use the Tesla mobile app to plan and choose various destinations and send them to your car OTA - or you can use mobile map apps such as Apple Maps or Google Maps and then send those pins/destinations to the Tesla app via the "Share" function within your preferred map app, which in turn sends them to your Tesla.

Watch the video in this link for a real-world example of how easy it is to use Grok to create your routes - and then either drive yourself - or have FSD drive you to the destination(s):

https://twitter.com/x/status/1999742756730925184

Again, this is real world, here in every Tesla today. This is how every Tesla owner with FSD routes their car today. Yes, it is this easy. Yes, this is using Grok AI to listen and understand the human and input navigation routes on the fly in real time.


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You're missing my point. What stops the main computer complex from directing your car to where it want you to go, instead of where you want it to go? After all, there has been a lot of . . .ahem. . . overriding in other general centralized computer systems, for the benefit of other people than the user of those systems. . .

I guess I'm just not too trusting. . .

 

[davidvel]

You're missing my point. What stops the main computer complex from directing your car to where it want you to go, instead of where you want it to go? After all, there has been a lot of . . .ahem. . . overriding in other general centralized computer systems, for the benefit of other people than the user of those systems. . .

I guess I'm just not too trusting. . .

Not trusting or paranoid? Not sure what your reference it to. Hacking?

 

[Ralph Sir Edward]

Not trusting or paranoid? Not sure what your reference it to. Hacking?

Hacking is one way. Great way to kidnap somebody.The government (at any level) could make certain areas "no go" zones, or could "request" you presence. Or lots of other things.

One thing is certain, every movement of the car will be tracked, for good or ill. That's what you are signing on for with full FSD convenience. I've watched the human race over many years - one thing I have determined - they're not all goody two shoes. . .

 

[HitchHiker71]

Ok
But is the CT a consideration for those upper end buyers
They are spending the money
But not on CT

We do have Rivians in ND

IDK - depends on the use case most likely. I doubt it though. Do most of those folks tow campers or RVs of any kind? If so, then EV pickups leave something to be desired - unless you go with the GM EV pickups - but the higher end models are $100k+ starting price basically - I wouldn't buy any other EV pickup for towing at this time. As Ford indicated, selling larger high priced EVs is inherently challenging for various reasons, at least today. I think once we see battery breakthroughs over the next several years, perhaps that may change, but in the interim, the hybrid HEV pickups or the RamCharger and emerging new F150 "long range" hybrid - which only uses the engine as a generator for the battery pack, offering up to 700 miles of range - will likely be the go to option for folks who want the advantages of a BEV, while also getting higher range when towing or traveling over longer distances.

 

[HitchHiker71]

You're missing my point. What stops the main computer complex from directing your car to where it want you to go, instead of where you want it to go? After all, there has been a lot of . . .ahem. . . overriding in other general centralized computer systems, for the benefit of other people than the user of those systems. . .

I guess I'm just not too trusting. . .

I'll tell you what - find me one real world example - not a hacking competition - where any Tesla vehicle has been hacked while driving and overridden - and I'll listen - you won't find one - so let's label this as paranoia - which is accurate in this case. You're reaching, to put it mildly. The system is very secure - and built by the guy who values freedom of speech and choice above all, do you really think that same individual would ever allow anything along this line to occur? He removed 100% of this crap at Twitter (now X). What does that tell you? He's being sued in the EU for refusing to embrace censorship. Unless our government passes legislation that requires this type of illicit access, the government will have zero access to any/all data at all companies owned by Elon Musk. Tesla has been around producing mass market vehicles since 2012 - so for the last 14 years - and not a single report of any vehicle being taken over. Theories don't add up to reality, except in your head apparently.

 

[Elan]

Ok
But is the CT a consideration for those upper end buyers
They are spending the money
But not on CT

We do have Rivians in ND

Many more R1T's than CT here as well. I'd seriously consider an R1T if they were less expensive. Would never consider a CT.

There are also a lot of R1S's on the roads here as well.

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[HitchHiker71]

Many more R1T's than CT here as well. I'd seriously consider an R1T if they were less expensive. Would never consider a CT.

There are also a lot of R1S's on the roads here as well.

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Undoubtedly having a more mainstream pickup design might help - but it's not going to produce significant sales volume for the same reasons that the MS and MX don't - they are luxury segment vehicles only - with inherently low sales volumes. The major detractor is that people expected a $40k base model CT - and instead we got a $80k base model - and for a short time a $70k base model - still $30k above the original promised pricing. I'm fairly certain we'd be seeing a LOT more CTs on the road if the base model was only $40k for example - but that's not gonna happen - in part due to the design compromises for the current iteration that drove up costs. If Tesla had focused on a more mainstream cheaper design and brought that to market, with pricing starting in the $40k range - that would see much larger sales volumes for sure. I doubt we'll see Tesla pivot now though, given their marked focus on autonomous driving and robotics moving forward.

 

[emeryjre]

IDK - depends on the use case most likely. I doubt it though. Do most of those folks tow campers or RVs of any kind? If so, then EV pickups leave something to be desired - unless you go with the GM EV pickups - but the higher end models are $100k+ starting price basically - I wouldn't buy any other EV pickup for towing at this time. As Ford indicated, selling larger high priced EVs is inherently challenging for various reasons, at least today. I think once we see battery breakthroughs over the next several years, perhaps that may change, but in the interim, the hybrid HEV pickups or the RamCharger and emerging new F150 "long range" hybrid - which only uses the engine as a generator for the battery pack, offering up to 700 miles of range - will likely be the go to option for folks who want the advantages of a BEV, while also getting higher range when towing or traveling over longer distances.

Most of the people I know buying the high end models of Pickups
Treat them like creampuffs
Never off road
Never a heavy load
Never a 5th wheel
It is what makes them desirable as used


Real Truck users
All have 4WD
Pulling 5th wheels
Pulling a boat and trailer at same time (legal here)
Deer Hunter
Elk Hunter
Pulling Trailer into Montana and headed into mountains on lumber roads
have big engines and low-end packages
Do not buy a used one

 

[easyrider]

Do not buy a used one

Ford, GM, Dodge and Toyota new trucks are too unreliable. Maybe in 2026, if they go back to the older reliable engines and power train , it might be ok.

I would only consider a used truck if we were looking at buying a truck.

Bill

 

[easyrider]

The younger generations don’t equate driving with freedom or enjoyment nearly as much as the older generations do

Every one of my young family members can't wait to drive. The smiles on their faces is proof enough for me that the freedom that driving provides is desirable.

Bill

 

[HitchHiker71]

Every one of my young family members can't wait to drive. The smiles on their faces is proof enough for me that the freedom that driving provides is desirable.

Bill

Yes but you live in a rural mountainous area - kinda the exception not the rule. Let's look at the data: https://x.com/i/grok/share/zoW9llzwCLVboDRVjc8qJLya1

Q: Is it accurate that younger generations don't place the same importance on driving privileges vs older generations specifically as it relates to freedom or enjoyment? What data shows this trend?

A: Yes, it is accurate to a significant extent that younger generations (particularly Millennials and Gen Z) place less importance on driving privileges compared to older generations (Gen X and Baby Boomers), especially regarding driving as a symbol of freedom or enjoyment. This trend is supported by declining driver's license acquisition rates among youth and surveys showing reduced perceived importance of car ownership and driving.Declining Driver's License RatesHistorical data shows a clear decline in young people obtaining driver's licenses, which indirectly reflects lower prioritization of driving as a rite of passage or source of independence:

• The percentage of 16-year-olds with licenses dropped from about 46–50% in 1983 to around 25% in recent years.
• For 18-year-olds, it fell from roughly 80% to 60% over the same period.
• Overall, only about 40% of 15- to 19-year-olds were licensed in 2022, down from 48% in 2000.

This contrasts sharply with older generations, for whom getting a license at 16 was far more common and often seen as an exciting milestone of freedom.

Surveys on Importance of Car Ownership and Driving

Direct attitudinal data indicates younger generations value car ownership and driving less:

• In a 2024 survey, the percentage of U.S. residents who say owning a car is important decreases by generation: 69% of Baby Boomers, 67% of Gen X, 62% of Millennials, and 54% of Gen Z. statista.com
• Studies on Millennials highlight a redefinition of freedom through multimodal options (e.g., transit, biking, walking, ride-sharing) rather than car dependency, with many viewing flexibility in choices—not owning/driving a car—as liberating. apta.com
• For Gen Z, the driver's license has lost much of its traditional appeal as a symbol of independence, with many seeing freedom in digital connectivity, sustainability, and alternatives like Uber/Lyft instead of personal driving. calendar.com

Reasons and Nuances

Reasons often cited include economic barriers (high costs of cars, insurance, gas), urban living with better alternatives, environmental concerns, and online socialization reducing the need for physical mobility. Some analyses argue the trend is driven more by economics than a fundamental dislike of driving—young people might drive more if affordability improved. brookings.edu

Recent surveys (2024–2025) suggest Gen Z may be driving more now than a few years ago and enjoying aspects like "me time" in cars, but historical and cross-generational comparisons still show they prioritize driving less for freedom or enjoyment than older cohorts did at similar ages. enterprisemobility.com

Overall, the data substantiates a generational shift away from viewing driving privileges as centrally tied to personal freedom or enjoyment.

 

[buzglyd]

The Tesla navigation system of course. FSD requires route navigation. You simply talk to the car and tell it where you want to go - simple as that - or you can use the screen to provide the destination(s), whichever you prefer - you can also use the Tesla mobile app to plan and choose various destinations and send them to your car OTA - or you can use mobile map apps such as Apple Maps or Google Maps and then send those pins/destinations to the Tesla app via the "Share" function within your preferred map app, which in turn sends them to your Tesla.

Watch the video in this link for a real-world example of how easy it is to use Grok to create your routes - and then either drive yourself - or have FSD drive you to the destination(s):

https://twitter.com/x/status/1999742756730925184

Again, this is real world, here in every Tesla today. This is how every Tesla owner with FSD routes their car today. Yes, it is this easy. Yes, this is using Grok AI to listen and understand the human and input navigation routes on the fly in real time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

He should lose his Canuck card having grok route him to Mickey D's instead of Tim Hortons.

 

[easyrider]

Yes but you live in a rural mountainous area

Not really. I'm in a subburb just outside of the city limits. You might be thinking of our cabin which is definitely beyond rural mountainous.

My grand daughter that is now driving lives in the heart of the city where she could walk to her High School but why walk when you can drive.

Maybe the main reason kids aren't driving now as they did in the past is the cost. It does cost significantly more to drive today than a decade ago according to Bill AI, lol.

Bill

 

[emeryjre]

My nieces and nephews all have DL and received a decent car to drive when they reached age
The friends of my nieces and nephews who are between 15 and 19 without Driver's Licenses
It is strictly financial
They may say it is OK
But my nieces and nephews tell me what their friends really feel

The cost of the cars and insurance is a barrier to many young people
I know what their parents are paying to keep cars running and the cost of insurance
All I can say is they are lucky the parents have above average paying jobs
Entry level vehicles are non-existent
Used Vehicles all have problems just waiting to manifest themselves

One vehicle for a nephew already blew an engine
One vehicle for a niece already lost a tranny and engine
(fortunately they had a service contract)
Another niece was rearended on Monday (No injuries, thank god)
Car is totaled

Jimmy Buffet used to say
He could remember when cars cost less than a pair of Air Jordon's

 

[HitchHiker71]

My nieces and nephews all have DL and received a decent car to drive when they reached age
The friends of my nieces and nephews who are between 15 and 19 without Driver's Licenses
It is strictly financial
They may say it is OK
But my nieces and nephews tell me what their friends really feel

The cost of the cars and insurance is a barrier to many young people
I know what their parents are paying to keep cars running and the cost of insurance
All I can say is they are lucky the parents have above average paying jobs
Entry level vehicles are non-existent
Used Vehicles all have problems just waiting to manifest themselves

One vehicle for a nephew already blew an engine
One vehicle for a niece already lost a tranny and engine
(fortunately they had a service contract)
Another niece was rearended on Monday (No injuries, thank god)
Car is totaled

Jimmy Buffet used to say
He could remember when cars cost less than a pair of Air Jordon's

Undoubtedly costs are a part of it, perhaps even the biggest part of it, but not the entire story as the statistics continue to show a downward trend (shared above), especially in urban and heavily suburban areas where ridesharing is readily available at all times of day or night. Transportation is being automated, that's the big message, it's simply a question of when, the democratization of ridesharing was but phase one (as opposed to taxis of the olden days). If people can get where they want to go for 25% of the cost of owning their own transportation, in a safer manner, and with zero worries about vehicle ownerships, repairs, maintenance, etc., why wouldn't they? I realize it sounds like sci-fi - but this is all closer than many would like to think IMHO. As Tesla recently posted on X, slow at first, then all at once:

https://twitter.com/x/status/2000368582988021886

 

[easyrider]

Entry level vehicles are non-existent

It depends where you look. The car auctions have plenty of inventory these days. It seems like a stereotypical thing to say but it's hard to go wrong with a cheap Toyota.

Bill

 

[easyrider]

why wouldn't they?

Mostly because they don't want to.

I realize it sounds like sci-fi - but this is all closer than many would like to think IMHO

It doesn't sound sci fi . It sounds more like a centralized control over the population which is basically Communism.

Bill