You're Being Lied to About Electric Cars

[buzglyd]

There is a reason Teslas are called the California Camry.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Tesla's are getting popular in our subdivision. The neighbor across the street recently purchased a Model Y. All of them are charged in the garage from what I can tell.

Notifying the home owners insurance company of adding an EV charging in the garage is a requirement from what I read. I'm not sure if the premium goes up but it probably does.

Bill

I didn't see any increase in my homeowners insurance rate when adding a TWC. This is no different than adding any other 30-60amp dedicated circuit to your home really. The requirement for notification is typically more for power management for the area - insurance companies and power companies want to know about wall chargers to better plan for increases in net power metering during off hours when most EVs charge (overnight) - as sometimes equipment upgrades for the main feeds become necessary - not that they can't determine this from usage - but the preference is to be informed proactively whenever possible. Some insurance companies will ask if it's acceptable to disclose to your local power company that you're adding a wall charger or a dedicated NEMA14-50 circuit to your home for this very reason given there’s a high likelihood whenever a customer adds a BEV to their auto insurance policy and they own their own home that a dedicated circuit/charger is likely to also be installed soon after.

 

[easyrider]

I doubt that most EV buyers tell their insurance companies anything. For the most part, I think most EV chargers in garages escape electrical permitting because owners use existing circuits.

Bill

 

[HitchHiker71]

I doubt that most EV buyers tell their insurance companies anything. For the most part, I think most EV chargers in garages escape electrical permitting because owners use existing circuits.

Bill

If they add a BEV to their insurance policy - that triggers this process. So unless they are driving uninsured, the insurance company knows by design. When I added our first BEV to our State Farm policy I was informed this data would be shared with our local power company unless I chose to opt-out.


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[emeryjre]

In California, a person has 30 days to notify their insurance company of a change in vehicles
If you do not notify the insurance company within this time frame, you could end up not being covered

 

[PigsDad]

If they add a BEV to their insurance policy - that triggers this process. So unless they are driving uninsured, the insurance company knows by design. When I added our first BEV to our State Farm policy I was informed this data would be shared with our local power company unless I chose to opt-out.

You are assuming they use the same insurance company for both home and auto insurance. Do you know if there is any notification when that is not the case?

Kurt

 

[Rjbeach2003]

I'm thinking the EV drivers sit in their EV to charge because it takes a bit of time to charge which is one of the big reason ev's aren't that popular.

Bill

I am an EV owner. While my circumstances aren't universal. I will give you my experience. I have a VW ID.4 purchased in 2024. Received 3 years of free, 30 minute charging. For the first year we charged up to 80% (recommended) which most of the time took 15-20 minutes depending on how low we were. I thought I would wait for home charging until I put an accessible 220 outlet. I changed in early July and began to plug into a regular outlet every time the car was going to sit for at least several hours and over night. That meant going to a fast charger in the next 1 3/4 months, maybe 3 times. Last week we took a trip of about 750 miles. Charged to 100% at home, then charged once about 200 miles in, took 20 minutes, I had an ice cream cone at DQ and my wife had a coffee drink from Starbucks. Then at the house we stayed at I plugged in over night. Charged up to 90% at the same charger on the way home. We used more battery on the trip as it was near 100 the whole time and I drove between 65-70 on the freeway. Both take a lot more energy than normal driving conditions. Gas cars do much better at the higher speeds and are tremendous gas hogs at slower speeds. BTW my display shows that our average speed over nearly 17,000 miles is 29 mph. No one is making customers buy EV's but facts are needed to make an informed decision. Facts are not being used in Washington DC today.

 

[HitchHiker71]

You are assuming they use the same insurance company for both home and auto insurance. Do you know if there is any notification when that is not the case?

Kurt

Again, when they add a BEV to their auto-insurance policy, the process I indicated kicks off. It doesn’t matter if you hold home insurance with the same company. In our case we did, but this process is something that the power companies and insurance companies are collaborating on at least in some states and in some cases. I’d imagine this doesn’t occur in all states and with all insurance companies for various legitimate reasons.


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[DrQ]

Tesla said it didn’t have key data in a fatal crash. Then a hacker found it.​

Years after a Tesla driver using Autopilot plowed into a young Florida couple in 2019, crucial electronic data detailing how the fatal wreck unfolded was missing. The information was key for a wrongful death case the survivor and the victim’s family were building against Tesla, but the company said it didn’t have the data.​

...​

Then a self-described hacker, enlisted by the plaintiffs to decode the contents of a chip they recovered from the vehicle, found it while sipping a Venti-size hot chocolate at a South Florida Starbucks. Tesla later said in court that it had the data on its own servers all along.​

https://archive.ph/s1psp

 

[emeryjre]

Tesla said it didn’t have key data in a fatal crash. Then a hacker found it.​

Years after a Tesla driver using Autopilot plowed into a young Florida couple in 2019, crucial electronic data detailing how the fatal wreck unfolded was missing. The information was key for a wrongful death case the survivor and the victim’s family were building against Tesla, but the company said it didn’t have the data.​

...​

Then a self-described hacker, enlisted by the plaintiffs to decode the contents of a chip they recovered from the vehicle, found it while sipping a Venti-size hot chocolate at a South Florida Starbucks. Tesla later said in court that it had the data on its own servers all along.​

https://archive.ph/s1psp

This type of deceptive behavior on the part of Tesla has led to the lack of confidence in the technology
At this point, FSD has improved dramatically
But these stories from the past have made people skeptical of when Tesla is being truthful

Large survey of shows people put off by FSD when thinking of a Tesla

https://www.techspot.com/news/109263-survey-finds-tesla-full-self-driving-puts-buyers.html

 

[easyrider]

This type of deceptive behavior on the part of Tesla has led to the lack of confidence in the technology
At this point, FSD has improved dramatically
But these stories from the past have made people skeptical of when Tesla is being truthful

Large survey of shows people put off by FSD when thinking of a Tesla

https://www.techspot.com/news/109263-survey-finds-tesla-full-self-driving-puts-buyers.html

It's interesting that consumers might think Tesla is any more dishonest than any other product. For some, Tesla has become a political thing and we all know how honesty and truth become victim to political zealots.

Talking about EV's and Tesla with others I'm thinking that after Sept 30 Tesla sales will increase and all of the other ev sales will decrease without huge discounts. The only way the other EV Manufacturers can be viable are through incentives. I think Tesla can get by without EV incentives.

Bill

 

[Ken555]

Tesla said it didn’t have key data in a fatal crash. Then a hacker found it.​

Years after a Tesla driver using Autopilot plowed into a young Florida couple in 2019, crucial electronic data detailing how the fatal wreck unfolded was missing. The information was key for a wrongful death case the survivor and the victim’s family were building against Tesla, but the company said it didn’t have the data.​

...​

Then a self-described hacker, enlisted by the plaintiffs to decode the contents of a chip they recovered from the vehicle, found it while sipping a Venti-size hot chocolate at a South Florida Starbucks. Tesla later said in court that it had the data on its own servers all along.​

https://archive.ph/s1psp

Tesla withheld data, lied, and misdirected police and plaintiffs to avoid blame in Autopilot crash

Tesla was caught withholding data, lying about it, and misdirecting authorities in the wrongful death case involving Autopilot that it...

electrek.co

 

[emeryjre]

Tesla introduced the Model S for sale in late June 2012
Long before Elon Musk was associated with any political controversy
The problems around Musk and Full Self Driving (FSD) started when Elon embellished the effectiveness of FSD
There have been claims (well founded) that FSD statistics were being hid from the public and regulatory agencies
The latest story just fuels the fire of controversy over FSD effectiveness and Musk's claims
The story was around long before Musk's association with Trump and the election of 2024

 

[easyrider]

The story was around long before Musk's association with Trump and the election of 2024

I guess that's the point. No one really cared about Tesla's problems until Elon joined a political party.

Bill

 

[DrQ]

I guess that's the point. No one really cared about Tesla's problems until Elon joined a political party.

Not so, the NTSB was investigating, but then Tesla DOGE'd the bullet when Elon was granted access to which government programs to cut. Funny that.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Not so, the NTSB was investigating, but then Tesla DOGE'd the bullet when Elon was granted access to which government programs to cut. Funny that.

Elon was conflicted out of anything related to his companies while at DOGE. Nice try though.


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[HitchHiker71]

Tesla introduced the Model S for sale in late June 2012
Long before Elon Musk was associated with any political controversy
The problems around Musk and Full Self Driving (FSD) started when Elon embellished the effectiveness of FSD
There have been claims (well founded) that FSD statistics were being hid from the public and regulatory agencies
The latest story just fuels the fire of controversy over FSD effectiveness and Musk's claims
The story was around long before Musk's association with Trump and the election of 2024

The court processes will ultimately work themselves out - but Tesla is by far exhibiting very similar behavior to all other major companies on cases like this.

That said, used FSD from door to door on our trip down to OTA yesterday - literally zero interventions for almost 120 miles from our driveway at home to the resort itself. Pretty impressive really. Butter smooth the entire drive.

Mind you this was in and around the DC beltway on the edge of rush hour which is basically from 3-8pm in this area. High traffic, lots of congestion, lots of humans driving aggressively, not a single issue.

Went to the Air and Space museum from the resort today, first part of a multi-stop day trip. The museum has an unattended gated parking lot area - FSD pulled up to the unattended gate, I grabbed a parking ticket - the gate rose and FSD continued through the gate and on into the parking lot area. These are what are termed edge cases that are now being handled well. Impressive really.

I won’t post the rest of the stops but suffice it to say FSD drove us all around DC without any interventions. It cannot yet handle entering the underground parking garage here at OTA - but that will come soon. It’s only going to get better - this is the worst it will ever be.

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[DrQ]

Elon was conflicted out of anything related to his companies while at DOGE. Nice try though.

'Yeah surrre'

 

[emeryjre]

The court processes will ultimately work themselves out - but Tesla is by far exhibiting very similar behavior to all other major companies on cases like this.

That said, used FSD from door to door on our trip down to OTA yesterday - literally zero interventions for almost 120 miles from our driveway at home to the resort itself. Pretty impressive really. Butter smooth the entire drive.

View attachment 115322

Mind you this was in and around the DC beltway on the edge of rush hour which is basically from 3-8pm in this area. High traffic, lots of congestion, lots of humans driving aggressively, not a single issue.

Went to the Air and Space museum from the resort today, first part of a multi-stop day trip. The museum has an unattended gated parking lot area - FSD pulled up to the unattended gate, I grabbed a parking ticket - the gate rose and FSD continued through the gate and on into the parking lot area. These are what are termed edge cases that are now being handled well. Impressive really.

View attachment 115323

I won’t post the rest of the stops but suffice it to say FSD drove us all around DC without any interventions. It cannot yet handle entering the underground parking garage here at OTA - but that will come soon. It’s only going to get better - this is the worst it will ever be.

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The prior posts are not about the current state of FSD
The prior posts are about embellishing the status of Autopilot and FSD in prior years
Then hiding the problems and accidents that occured
FSD will happen at some point
Documented and approved by the regulators charged with the job of protecting everyone
The data acquisition from the cameras and the ability to process this data is improving with each new generation of chips
You seem to have blind spot to the fact that Elon has made plenty of mistakes getting to this stage
These mistakes have cost people’s lives
In our society leaders can be held responsible for these mistakes
He could have handed the development of self driving much differently and not had any problems or liability
He chose not to

 

[HitchHiker71]

The prior posts are not about the current state of FSD
The prior posts are about embellishing the status of Autopilot and FSD in prior years
Then hiding the problems and accidents that occured
FSD will happen at some point
Documented and approved by the regulators charged with the job of protecting everyone
The data acquisition from the cameras and the ability to process this data is improving with each new generation of chips
You seem to have blind spot to the fact that Elon has made plenty of mistakes getting to this stage
These mistakes have cost people’s lives
In our society leaders can be held responsible for these mistakes
He could have handed the development of self driving much differently and not had any problems or liability
He chose not to

It’s not that I have a blind spot, it’s that I speak from the experience of literally having tracked dozens of these exact same types of cases that attempt to somehow equate sound bites of what Musk has said in the past, which are not legally binding, and often taken out of context when you listen to the entirety of the conversation from which the sound bite was taken, and not a single one of them has ultimately come back with a verdict for the plaintiff. A few have settled out of court, and people can debate the merits of such settlements based upon their interpretations, but the fact is that not a single case has been proven yet that either FSD or Autopilot is at fault. Does that mean this case will? Who knows, only time will tell, but the facts on the ground clearly indicate my assumptions are much more likely to be accurate than what you are purporting, and no one can argue otherwise.

This is akin to saying that people listen to the timeshare salesperson and whatever excerpts were said by the timeshare salesperson somehow matter. What matters is what is in the contract, or in this case what is clearly spelled out as an L2 ADAS system in the terms and conditions that every single person agrees to when using FSD or Autopilot. The person in the drivers seat is responsible. Period, full stop. I understand that many dislike Musk for whatever reason, but that is not and cannot ever become the basis for these types of legal challenges.

Yes, of course Elon has made mistakes, he makes mistakes quite often, and if you knew anything about him and had listened to any of his many interviews, he says exactly that all of the time. Mistakes are progress. You learn how not to do something which puts you one step closer to doing something better. This is basic first principles engineering in action. You seem to be under the impression that Elon isn’t capable of making mistakes, why is that? What are your sources? You do realize that every single L2 ADAS system has killed people while in use because the driver wasn’t paying attention right? Go look at the stats from NHTSA. SuperCruise, BlueCruise, MobileEye, you name it, and if you look at the stats the Tesla systems have the lowest occurrences by far. What does that tell us? The leader is being attacked because Tesla has far more vehicles on the road using this type of L2 ADAS technology than any other system on the road by orders of magnitude. It’s a simple numbers game with this in mind. It is to be expected. Is Musk a polarizing person? Absolutely, and more so since he changed his political affiliations without a doubt. Again, the courts will ultimately make their legal determinations, and we shall see where all of this ends up, but exactly none of this should become lawfare in the process.


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[DrQ]

It’s not that I have a blind spot, it’s that I speak from the experience of literally having tracked dozens of these exact same types of cases that attempt to somehow equate sound bites of what Musk has said in the past, which are not legally binding, and often taken out of context when you listen to the entirety of the conversation from which the sound bite was taken, and not a single one of them has ultimately come back with a verdict for the plaintiff.

"No man ever went broke overestimating the ignorance of the American public." ~ P. T. Barnum
"The common man, no matter how sharp and tough, actually enjoys having the wool pulled over his eyes, and makes it easier for the puller." ~ P. T. Barnum
"You can fool most of the people most of the time." ~ P. T. Barnum

 

[HitchHiker71]

"No man ever went broke overestimating the ignorance of the American public." ~ P. T. Barnum
"The common man, no matter how sharp and tough, actually enjoys having the wool pulled over his eyes, and makes it easier for the puller." ~ P. T. Barnum
"You can fool most of the people most of the time." ~ P. T. Barnum

Got it - so you believe the courts and judges are ignorant, common, and can easily be fooled? Because we are talking about legal cases that have repeatedly been ruled in favor of the defendant in these cases. Facts matter.


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[Beefnot]

Got it - so you believe the courts and judges are ignorant, common, and can easily be fooled? Because we are talking about legal cases that have repeatedly been ruled in favor of the defendant in these cases. Facts matter.


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No, the courts and judges cannot be easily fooled; it's the "people" who are. Multiple things can be true at the same time: Tesla misled people on their vehicles' driving capabilities but well-papered their legal protections against these misrepresentations and made adjustments to the Autopilot and FSD systems when they knew they were overstating the capabilities, the people who bought into the misrepresentations were also grossly negligent, and Tesla retains fantastic legal talent who are eminently effective litigators.

 

[DrQ]

Got it - so you believe the courts and judges are ignorant, common, and can easily be fooled?

No, I believe that Musk is FUNDAMENTALLY a showboating huckster that revels in hype and self promotion. He called a dedicated cave diver who risked his life to save children trapped in a cave a "pedo" while sending a useless tin "cigar case" as a rescue vehicle shows that he engages his mouth before his brain. Yes, he may have prevailed in that case in court too, but I wouldn't trust him any farther than I could comfortably spit a dead rat, to paraphrase Douglas Adams.

Elon Musk calls British diver in Thai cave rescue 'pedo' in baseless attack

Accusation directed on Twitter at Vern Unsworth, who called Tesla CEO’s offer of ‘mini-sub’ to help rescuers a ‘PR stunt’

www.theguardian.com

 

[HitchHiker71]

No, I believe that Musk is FUNDAMENTALLY a showboating huckster that revels in hype and self promotion. He called a dedicated cave diver who risked his life to save children trapped in a cave a "pedo" while sending a useless tin "cigar case" as a rescue vehicle shows that he engages his mouth before his brain. Yes, he may have prevailed in that case in court too, but I wouldn't trust him any farther than I could comfortably spit a dead rat, to paraphrase Douglas Adams.

Elon Musk calls British diver in Thai cave rescue 'pedo' in baseless attack

Accusation directed on Twitter at Vern Unsworth, who called Tesla CEO’s offer of ‘mini-sub’ to help rescuers a ‘PR stunt’

www.theguardian.com

Ever owned a Tesla or any of the products that Musk’s companies have made? Driven a Tesla before? Use Starlink? Ever used FSD or Autopilot on a daily basis? In other words, are you speaking from actual real world experience, or just another internet talking points based keyboard warrior? I’ve made my determination. Placed on ignore.


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