You're Being Lied to About Electric Cars

[DrQ]

Ever owned a Tesla or any of the products that Musk’s companies have made?

As you can see from my response, I DON'T TRUST him. Apart from using his customers as test subjects for FSD and Autopilot, he has chosen marketing names which imply more capability than what 'da masses fully understand. While the members of TUGG may be fully aware of what the limitations are constraining the current state of the art, the name evokes other capabilities which are more aspirational than actual capabilities.

I think the comparison to P.T. Barnum, both personally and professionally is spot on,

Tesla is "building the plane as they are flying it". I have worked at several start-up companies and am familiar with what goes on. I don't have to own one to be able to make an informed decision. To offhandedly reject an opposing opinion just because someone has not purchased the product sounds more like a zealot rather than an advocate. For the record, I do own an EV and was an early adopter (2018).

Are you speaking from actual real world experience, or just another internet talking points based keyboard warrior?

My ICE (fully decked out Genesis GV70) car has Hyundai's SmartSense HDA, which is not as advanced as FSD, but does utilize GPS and digital mapping in addition to sensors to assist in semi-autonomous driving and parking. Given my choice of systems, I would choose GM's Super Cruise technology.

I’ve made my determination. Placed on ignore.

I don't place anyone on ignore, I don't feel like running off with my fingers in my ears shouting "LA LA LA LA LA" like a petulant child helps me broaden my horizons. YMMV

 

[Beefnot]

List of predictions for autonomous Tesla vehicles by Elon Musk - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Legal and ethical are two distinct concepts.

 

[Beefnot]

As you can see from my response, I DON'T TRUST him. Apart from using his customers as test subjects for FSD and Autopilot, he has chosen marketing names which imply more capability than what 'da masses fully understand. While the members of TUGG may be fully aware of what the limitations are constraining the current state of the art, the name evokes other capabilities which are more aspirational than actual capabilities.

I think the comparison to P.T. Barnum, both personally and professionally is spot on,

Tesla is "building the plane as they are flying it". I have worked at several start-up companies and am familiar with what goes on. I don't have to own one to be able to make an informed decision. To offhandedly reject an opposing opinion just because someone has not purchased the product sounds more like a zealot rather than an advocate. For the record, I do own an EV and was an early adopter (2018).

My ICE (fully decked out Genesis GV70) car has Hyundai's SmartSense HDA, which is not as advanced as FSD, but does utilize GPS and digital mapping in addition to sensors to assist in semi-autonomous driving and parking. Given my choice of systems, I would choose GM's Super Cruise technology.


I don't place anyone on ignore, I don't feel like running off with my fingers in my ears shouting "LA LA LA LA LA" like a petulant child helps me broaden my horizons. YMMV

That's how he rolls, either you accept baptism into the Church of Tesla or you are dead to him.

 

[emeryjre]

Equating Musk’s behavior as ethical because the timeshare industry follows a similar model
Not a real strong argument where people’s life’s are at stake

 

[HitchHiker71]

Equating Musk’s behavior as ethical because the timeshare industry follows a similar model
Not a real strong argument where people’s life’s are at stake

I watch what people do not what they say. No one can argue that the leader of Tesla isn’t changing the world and moving the world toward renewable energy on a mass scale, unlike anyone else before him. No one can argue that Neuralink isn’t changing the lives of paralyzed individuals by using technology that actually interprets thought, which is pretty incredible on many levels. No one can argue that SpaceX is the undisputed leader in rocket technology and pioneered reusable rockets that have dramatically decreased the cost of going into earth orbit. No one can argue that X has not become one of the largest and most influential social media companies on earth. No one can argue that xAI has not become one of the leading AI companies on earth in a very narrow period of time having only been created recently when compared to its competition.

Yet the naysayers will argue that the leader is incompetent, or a huckster, a liar, and the list goes on. The logic used is that all of these companies succeed despite Musk and not because of him. The fact is that every single one of the companies he leads is exceptional from any rational analytical perspective, yet the guy gets no credit. What kind of logical sense does this make?

The answer is it’s not logic being used, it’s emotion coupled with other predispositions not based on logic that are preventing basic logic from being applied. It’s a demonstrated inability to look at the situation rationally and objectively. Sure the guy is controversial without a doubt, no one would argue otherwise, but Musk is a genius, and no one that objectively looks at what has been done, what has actually been accomplished, as opposed to what has been said, mostly in sound bites, can really argue otherwise. It’s amazing to me the blindness displayed in this thread with these facts in mind. @emeryjre this is not aimed at you per se, just making macro observations.

With respect to people’s lives being at stake, I already posted about the reality of these claims, not going to repeat myself. Those who want to see what they want to see will continue to do so, and nothing I am going to say is going to change their predispositions with regard to the topics at hand.


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[emeryjre]

He is your hero
He is not mine
Let's agree to disagree and move on

 

[PigsDad]

He is your hero
He is not mine
Let's agree to disagree and move on

You don't need to think he is a "hero" in order to be unbiased and acknowledge his accomplishments. The simple fact is that he has been the driver for some amazing innovations in the last few decades. Other great historical innovators were not liked by all, so I guess he is in good company.

Kurt

 

[emeryjre]

I made a lot of money with Musk
I bought when he announced
Sold and shorted when he didn't meet his own projections and promises
I am well aware of his pluses and minuses

 

[HitchHiker71]

He is your hero
He is not mine
Let's agree to disagree and move on

He’s not my hero - I dislike many things about Musk and have my own issues with him - but I give credit where credit is due - and no one has formed a cogent argument otherwise to disprove what I’ve outlined. Enough said.

Moving on, today Tesla published their MP4 or Master Plan 4, having always been a mission driven company from as far back as 2006 when MP1 was published:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1962591324022153607

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[HitchHiker71]

You don't need to think he is a "hero" in order to be unbiased and acknowledge his accomplishments. The simple fact is that he has been the driver for some amazing innovations in the last few decades. Other great historical innovators were not liked by all, so I guess he is in good company.

Kurt

Exactly. Predispositions and biases appear to run deeper than many are willing to admit to themselves and to anyone else it seems.


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[easyrider]

As you can see from my response, I DON'T TRUST him.

Why would you trust anyone ? Do you think that all of the other auto manufacturers aren't misleading everyone with their data ? They absolutely are.

Bill

 

[CericRushmore]

https://www.wsj.com/business/autos/ev-deals-tax-credits-ending-7558434f?st=mwuxY5

Interesting article from the WSJ. Two interesting things to me. Leases for less than $100 a month. I don't really understand the economics of that. I guess dealers are trying to clear inventory before the tax credit expires. Two, look at the chart of the ev market share. Looks like it has plateaued or is even declining since 2024.

 

[Brett]

https://www.wsj.com/business/autos/ev-deals-tax-credits-ending-7558434f?st=mwuxY5

Interesting article from the WSJ. Two interesting things to me. Leases for less than $100 a month. I don't really understand the economics of that. I guess dealers are trying to clear inventory before the tax credit expires. Two, look at the chart of the ev market share. Looks like it has plateaued or is even declining since 2024.

Yes, it's about the disappearing EV credit.

"The final days of the $7,500 federal tax credit for electrical-vehicle purchases, which expires Sept. 30, have set off a frenzied last-ditch car-buying spree."


Meanwhile the rest of the world knows that oil will not last forever

https://www.cnbc.com/2025/08/28/aut...e-juggernaut-is-reshaping-the-car-market.html

China surpassed Japan as the world’s largest vehicle exporter. It’s domestic car sales then ballooned to a record 31.4 million units last year, with brand-new EVs accounting for roughly 41% of the total vehicles produced.

 

[Carolinian]

Electric car range almost HALVES when driving in heatwaves, test finds

A test by What Car? drove three popular EVs through the 'frying pan of Andalusia' in Spain, enduring temperatures between 32 and 44 degrees.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[HitchHiker71]

Electric car range almost HALVES when driving in heatwaves, test finds

A test by What Car? drove three popular EVs through the 'frying pan of Andalusia' in Spain, enduring temperatures between 32 and 44 degrees.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Part of the issue is the use of WLTP range ratings, which are much less realistic than EPA today for example. The Tesla M3 in this test was WLTP rated for 436 miles, yet even What Car? themselves tested this same M3 model here: https://www.whatcar.com/tesla/model-3/saloon/review/n19010 - and this M3 only achieved roughly 340 miles in the real world. That's almost exactly what the EPA rating is here in the US for this M3 model in comparison. Still 244/340 is roughly 72% of real world range, so that's a pretty big hit - moreso than the winter test they ran with the same M3 which returned around 75% of real world range. I'd be curious to have outfits like this run the same tests on ICE vehicles at the same time, just to see how much of a hit ICE vehicles take in comparison.

 

[buzglyd]

Part of the issue is the use of WLTP range ratings, which are much less realistic than EPA today for example. The Tesla M3 in this test was WLTP rated for 436 miles, yet even What Car? themselves tested this same M3 model here: https://www.whatcar.com/tesla/model-3/saloon/review/n19010 - and this M3 only achieved roughly 340 miles in the real world. That's almost exactly what the EPA rating is here in the US for this M3 model in comparison. Still 244/340 is roughly 72% of real world range, so that's a pretty big hit - moreso than the winter test they ran with the same M3 which returned around 75% of real world range. I'd be curious to have outfits like this run the same tests on ICE vehicles at the same time, just to see how much of a hit ICE vehicles take in comparison.

I think it would be minimal on a ICE vehicle since we’re running our climate control almost all the time. The AC compressor is almost always engaged unless you shut it off manually.

 

[Brett]

Those Cheap Chinese cars have only a 830 mile range !

https://www.sustainability-times.co...and-ultra-fast-12-minute-charging-revolution/

 

[HitchHiker71]

Those Cheap Chinese cars have only a 830 mile range !



View attachment 115453

https://www.sustainability-times.co...and-ultra-fast-12-minute-charging-revolution/

That 830 mile range is from a tri-motor hybrid using a 1.5L turbo engine - it's not a BEV - it's a PHEV to be clear:

The BEV offers up to 436 WLTP miles - figure about 25-30% less for EPA - or around mid-low 300 mile range - or around about what every other BEV is already offering. It's also a top-line model that costs well over $100k in USD.

That said, the ultra-fast charging capability is admirable, and certainly attractive since it directly addresses one of the key limiting factors for BEV adoption - charging times - but we just don't yet know the degradation factor for such high charging rates as yet - only time will tell.

 

[HitchHiker71]

I think it would be minimal on a ICE vehicle since we’re running our climate control almost all the time. The AC compressor is almost always engaged unless you shut it off manually.

The compressor itself typically cycles on and off dependent upon the climate demands inside the vehicle - same as with home systems - the less the compressor is working - the less parasitic drain on the engine which negatively impacts MPG.

 

[buzglyd]

The compressor itself typically cycles on and off dependent upon the climate demands inside the vehicle - same as with home systems - the less the compressor is working - the less parasitic drain on the engine which negatively impacts MPG.

True but I drive back and forth between San Diego and Scottsdale a lot and don’t notice much of a difference whether it’s mild or boiling. Driving the Tesla home in 115 degrees took the range down for sure.

 

[HitchHiker71]

True but I drive back and forth between San Diego and Scottsdale a lot and don’t notice much of a difference whether it’s mild or boiling. Driving the Tesla home in 115 degrees took the range down for sure.

The older Tesla’s with the all glass roofs without any silver lined glass coating are more prone to this. Our newer 2026 MY has this new silver-based coating and I’ve noticed the new coating makes a big difference for climate control efficiency by reflecting up to 90% of the heat and UV rays.


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[buzglyd]

The older Tesla’s with the all glass roofs without any silver lined glass coating are more prone to this. Our newer 2026 MY has this new silver-based coating and I’ve noticed the new coating makes a big difference for climate control efficiency by reflecting up to 90% of the heat and UV rays.


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I had the windows tinted on mine, even the entire back roof panel and I bought the roof liners. I just use the front one in San Diego. In the desert I might put both in. I know we live in different parts of the country. The desert heat in summer is a special level of insanity.

 

[buzglyd]

My charging saga continues. As we discussed, it's not practical or cost effective to put a 50 amp breaker in my mid-80s condo. 30 amp will be fine but my dryer plug is a 10-30 rather than a 14-30. That's a difference (according to Grok) of about 11-12 miles added per hour to 22 miles added per hour because Tesla limits the draw on a 10-30 due to a lack of ground. I'm going to pull the outlet tomorrow and pray there is an unused ground in there and hopefully go 14-30.

 

[emeryjre]

This device may not be helpful in your situation

But in some cases it can be useful

It is approved in some sections of California

EV

Plugging in an EV is easy. Connecting a charger to your home should be too. ConnectDER’s EV meter socket adapter is...

connectder.com

Good luck with your project

 

[youppi]

My charging saga continues. As we discussed, it's not practical or cost effective to put a 50 amp breaker in my mid-80s condo. 30 amp will be fine but my dryer plug is a 10-30 rather than a 14-30. That's a difference (according to Grok) of about 11-12 miles added per hour to 22 miles added per hour because Tesla limits the draw on a 10-30 due to a lack of ground. I'm going to pull the outlet tomorrow and pray there is an unused ground in there and hopefully go 14-30.

as per https://www.tesla.com/support/charging/mobile-connector the charge speed is the same for the 10-30 and the 14-30 adapter