You're Being Lied to About Electric Cars

[HitchHiker71]

I thought it was funny is all. Now I wonder if it's doable. I think it is doable but probably illegal.

Bill

Currently outside of the immediate Austin area and Palo Alto area, Tesla doesn't hold licensing for self-driving. The rumor is that next month (June), Tesla will start up a robotaxi service using a small fleet of the newly introduced Model Y that debuted in January in these two areas, and is seeking licensing in other urban areas for later this year. The CT won't support this feature this year most likely, as robotaxi services is largely based on the volume of data from each specific vehicle type - that's why the Model Y is being used initially - Tesla has the most FSD data captured from the MY fleet by far, following by the M3, MS, MX, and lastly the CT. We'll also start to see the actual Robotaxi vehicle this year, but we won't see any real production ramp for the Robotaxi variant until 2026 timeframe.

I could get into nitty gritty details on what FSD in the CT does and does not have compared to the MY and M3, but will defer unless someone explicitly wants to know. Suffice it to say it's a level below the other more mainstream vehicles in overall FSD capabilities at this time. What that video shows as funny, will become reality for future models though, once true self driving via FSD is rolled out - at least for AI4 equipped Tesla vehicles.

 

[Brett]

I thought it was funny is all. Now I wonder if it's doable. I think it is doable but probably illegal.

Bill

.
But someday they will phone home

https://archive.md/5O6iw
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https://www.wsj.com/business/autos/what-a-15-000-electric-suv-says-about-u-s-china-car-rivalry-43cd564e

 

[easyrider]

Its a mad, mad world that never ends.

When people run in circles it's a very very mad world........... Tears for Fears

Bill

 

[emeryjre]

Next Level Automated Driving powered by new AI chip from..............a Chinese Company
No surprise it is from China
The surprise is the company
Not BYD

Goodbye to self-driving ― The future is AI-driving and comes from China, but is not from BYD

Besides, it's important to note that XPeng’s AI system was designed to learn from traffic data across many Chinese cities, where driving conditions can be far

www.coachesdatabase.com

 

[emeryjre]

Innovative way Pacific Gas and Electric is helping EV owners charge at home when they have older wiring panels
The utility is keeping the cost of upgrades to a minimum while providing 240 volt charging for faster overnight charging

How PG&E Is Supporting EV Growth Without Expensive Grid and Home Upgrades

As EVs gain popularity, aging electrical infrastructure in older homes poses a challenge for convenient home charging, but innovative solutions are emerging.

www.powermag.com

 

[easyrider]

Innovative way Pacific Gas and Electric is helping EV owners charge at home when they have older wiring panels
The utility is keeping the cost of upgrades to a minimum while providing 240 volt charging for faster overnight charging

How PG&E Is Supporting EV Growth Without Expensive Grid and Home Upgrades

As EVs gain popularity, aging electrical infrastructure in older homes poses a challenge for convenient home charging, but innovative solutions are emerging.

www.powermag.com

Interesting. I wonder how this works with old meter bases serviced with wire sized for the 100 amp panel. The service wire size in old 100 amp service panels is often #4 copper or #2 aluminum which is the right size for a 85 amp draw. Adding an additional breaker through a socket adapter should mean that the service wire to the meter is rated higher.

So the run of wire going to meter in many cases would be undersized is what I think.

Bill

 

[davidvel]

Interesting. I wonder how this works with old meter bases serviced with wire sized for the 100 amp panel. The service wire size in old 100 amp service panels is often #4 copper or #2 aluminum which is the right size for a 85 amp draw. Adding an additional breaker through a socket adapter should mean that the service wire to the meter is rated higher.

So the run of wire going to meter in many cases would be undersized is what I think.

Bill

I am certain Bill "the licensed electrical engineer" knows more than PG&E and Itron.

I can almost, practically, just about, guarantee it.

 

[easyrider]

I am certain Bill "the licensed electrical engineer" knows more than PG&E and Itron.

I can almost, practically, just about, guarantee it.

My posts, like chum in the water, bring about that hunger for you. In your case, the hunger to be perversely inclined to spout off, lol. It's ok.

Dave, every 60 or 100 service I have seen uses the same size wire from the meter to the service connection. The rating of the service wire connected to the meter, extending through the service wire mast to the power connection, isn't rated to add additional loads for the most part. The old meter base , mast and service wire would probably need to be changed on anything manufactured before the mid 60's even if it were a 200 amp service.

The socket adapter is a decent idea for a 200 amp service but not so much for a 60 or 100 amp service unless it's free. Why would anyone pay for this instead of just installing a new 200 amp service ?

Bill

 

[emeryjre]

The device throttles the power output to the charger to keep the load below a certain level
The article discusses the fact that in many cases of upgrading the house to a higher service level requires expensive and time-consuming upgrades to the local grid
The cost of upgrading service goes beyond just changing the wire size from the grid to the house
I am familiar with all of these issues because the local grid in my area has these exact problems
Underground wiring, small transformers, undersized wiring, and lack of two-way power movement (in the case of selling excess power from solar panels back to the utility company)
These devices and implementation by the utility company is a win win for all involved

 

[easyrider]

These devices and implementation by the utility company is a win win for all involved

Only if they are free, imo. Free meaning 100% subsidized. Most people owning a home with a 60 to 100 amp service probably can't afford an EV let alone a meter socket outlet unless they are an investor owner who wouldn't want to pay for it. I don't think it's going to catch on in these groups. Where I see it being useful is on a commercial building with a 200 amp service needing to add an EV charger because of code requirements.

Bill

 

[emeryjre]

Stick to what you know
California Real Estate Values, EV and PHEV ownership, and the Grid limitations exceed your knowledge base

 

[easyrider]

Stick to what you know
California Real Estate Values, EV and PHEV ownership, and the Grid limitations exceed your knowledge base

What do you mean exactly by grid limitations exceed my knowledge base, lol.

What makes sense to me is a business being required to install an EV charger because of new codes utilizing a meter socket outlet and not so much a low income household.

Bill

 

[davidvel]

What do you mean exactly by grid limitations exceed my knowledge base, lol.

What makes sense to me is a business being required to install an EV charger because of new codes utilizing a meter socket outlet and not so much a low income household.

Bill

They probably mean, stick to what you know, which your prior posts show is not much beyond wild speculation and opinion.

I am certain you know far less than PG&E and Itron.

I can absolutely, totally, 100% guarantee it.

 

[easyrider]

They probably mean, stick to what you know, which your prior posts show is not much beyond wild speculation and opinion.

I am certain you know far less than PG&E and Itron.

I can absolutely, totally, 100% guarantee it.

"You don't need to be an expert to know SWA delivers drinks on trays and snacks from baskets or bags."

So you are saying in this other thread that you don't need to be an expert to know what you know because you know it by observation. You didn't need to know SWA's exact policies on snacks or beverages.

How is what I posted any different ?

I don't need to know what PG&E and ITRON know to tell you why it doesn't make financial sense for those people living in older homes or how it does make sense to meet requirements placed on building permits for commercial renovations.

You seem to keep spouting off your sillyness like the chump you sound like.

Bill

 

[Chrispee]

Took one of the newest transportation modes to pick up some fuel for one of the oldest. Can confirm that charging an electric truck is a lot easier (and less costly) than feeding a horse.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Time for an upgrade for my wife's daily driver - new 2026 Model Y Long Range - the recently released new model rides much nicer, much quieter, nicer sound system, better FSD (AI4 vs the HW3 we have today), upgraded interior and color, better efficiency, etc. Basically an all-around upgrade compared to our current 2023 MY LR in almost every respect. We're taking advantage of the special loyalty discounts and promotional financing before month end. We may or may not trade our existing 2023 MY LR depending on the trade value.

 

[emeryjre]

Time for an upgrade for my wife's daily driver - new 2026 Model Y Long Range - the recently released new model rides much nicer, much quieter, nicer sound system, better FSD (AI4 vs the HW3 we have today), upgraded interior and color, better efficiency, etc. Basically an all-around upgrade compared to our current 2023 MY LR in almost every respect. We're taking advantage of the special loyalty discounts and promotional financing before month end. We may or may not trade our existing 2023 MY LR depending on the trade value.

View attachment 111898

Very Nice
If not too personal, what are the purchase price details

 

[HitchHiker71]

Time for an upgrade for my wife's daily driver - new 2026 Model Y Long Range - the recently released new model rides much nicer, much quieter, nicer sound system, better FSD (AI4 vs the HW3 we have today), upgraded interior and color, better efficiency, etc. Basically an all-around upgrade compared to our current 2023 MY LR in almost every respect. We're taking advantage of the special loyalty discounts and promotional financing before month end. We may or may not trade our existing 2023 MY LR depending on the trade value.

Very Nice
If not too personal, what are the purchase price details

With Tesla at present on the new model Y, the price is the price that is listed on the website - no inventory discounts (unless you can find a demo vehicle). We also received a couple more discounts that aren't reflected on the order agreement below that weren't taken off until delivery day, another $1k in discounts, plus 0.99% financing for 72 months in our region as an existing Tesla customer. We chose to purchase FSD outright, as it adds the same $100/month to the monthly payment that the FSD monthly subscription service costs, however as an informed Tesla investor I'm almost certain the subscription price will rise as FSD matures and goes unsupervised (L3) later this year, as will the purchase price, so given we're basically paying the same monthly payment on the new 2026 as we were on the 2023, we were good with trading up. We took delivery this past Monday, and we did trade in our 2023 MY LR since we had a bit of trade equity. If we kept the 2023 MY LR I would have sold my truck and paid the 2023 MY LR off to keep it. We chose to keep our 2018 RAM 1500 that mostly just sits in the driveway since I work from home. I had to submit the twice annual mileage check to State Farm for the RAM the other day and at present, I'm putting 3500 miles a year on that truck, and it only has 64k miles on it, so no reason to get rid of it any time soon. For our specific 2026 MY LR order configuration:

I'll snap a couple of pics of the new 2026 soon and post them into this thread.

 

[emeryjre]

With Tesla at present on the new model Y, the price is the price that is listed on the website - no inventory discounts (unless you can find a demo vehicle). We also received a couple more discounts that aren't reflected on the order agreement below that weren't taken off until delivery day, another $1k in discounts, plus 0.99% financing for 72 months in our region as an existing Tesla customer. We chose to purchase FSD outright, as it adds the same $100/month to the monthly payment that the FSD monthly subscription service costs, however as an informed Tesla investor I'm almost certain the subscription price will rise as FSD matures and goes unsupervised (L3) later this year. We took delivery this past Monday, and we did trade in our 2023 MY LR since we had a bit of trade equity. If we kept the 2023 MY LR I would have sold my truck and paid the 2023 MY LR off to keep it. We chose to keep our 2018 RAM 1500 that mostly just sits in the driveway since I work from home. I had to submit the twice annual mileage check to State Farm for the RAM the other day and at present, I'm putting 3500 miles a year on that truck, and it only has 64k miles on it, so no reason to get rid of it any time soon. For our specific 2026 MY LR order configuration:

View attachment 112126

Thanks for the update
One question
By purchasing FSD(supervised) now, are you entitled to all the updates to FSD over the life of the vehicle

 

[HitchHiker71]

Thanks for the update
One question
By purchasing FSD(supervised) now, are you entitled to all the updates to FSD over the life of the vehicle

That’s correct yes. In addition to all software updates and protection from price increases, if the FSD hardware ever needs to be upgraded to run future versions, that cost is also included, though you may have to wait a while for that hardware upgrade to be approved and to actually be completed. On older Tesla models with HW2 many folks that purchased FSD outright actually received free hardware and camera upgrades to HW3 for example. AI5 is likely to be released with Cybercab heading into 2026, so if that hardware platform becomes a requirement to run the future FSD versions, I want futureproofing.

The current AI4 FSD version 13.2.9 in the new Y is definitively better than the HW3 12.6.4 version we had previously. In particular it’s better at “last mile” type maneuvers like parking, backing up when needed, etc. My wife can literally use FSD door to door now in this new MY, and she does.

 

[buzglyd]

Pretty amazing. I haven’t pulled the trigger on the Model 3 yet because I’ve been lazy selling cars I have. I might to to get her done though because if/when the BBB passes, the subsidy will go away.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Pretty amazing. I haven’t pulled the trigger on the Model 3 yet because I’ve been lazy selling cars I have. I might to to get her done though because if/when the BBB passes, the subsidy will go away.

Yes, that's partly why we did this now, we used the federal tax credit for part of the downpayment since it's available at POS now right away. Assuming you qualify, the $7500 federal EV tax credit will likely be around until 12/31/2025, per the original bill, however the Senate version does mess around with the timelines so be on the lookout on this item. I suspect if the bill that eventually passes expires the subsidies, we will see an artificial increase in EV demand as people "move up" their purchase that were on the fence, as $7500 is not anything to sneeze at really. Once that date is surpassed, we'll see a pretty big drop in demand after though.

 

[buzglyd]

Yes, that's partly why we did this now, we used the federal tax credit for part of the downpayment since it's available at POS now right away. Assuming you qualify, the $7500 federal EV tax credit will likely be around until 12/31/2025, per the original bill, however the Senate version does mess around with the timelines so be on the lookout on this item. I suspect if the bill that eventually passes expires the subsidies, we will see an artificial increase in EV demand as people "move up" their purchase that were on the fence, as $7500 is not anything to sneeze at really. Once that date is surpassed, we'll see a pretty big drop in demand after though.

Guess I better get a couple of cars up for sale.

 

[easyrider]

We may or may not trade our existing 2023 MY LR depending on the trade value.

I've been watching the used Model Y's being sold for under $30,000 with low miles on them. I've seen some decent prices in the mid 20's for Model Y's. Some with fairly low miles. Supposedly, Tesla prices drop 3x faster than many other vehicles.

Now that Iran is being taken out of the oil market, my thought is oil prices will increase, making gas prices increase to the point that EV's might become popular. I'm waiting to see what happens with the used Tesla Model Y's and used Lexus RX's. Interesting is the Lexus is not really depreciating fast enough to where it makes sense to buy used but the Tesla's are.

Bill

https://www.reddit.com/r/electricvehicles/comments/1jdogn0/tesla_used_car_prices_are_falling_at_3x_the_rest

 

[HitchHiker71]

I've been watching the used Model Y's being sold for under $30,000 with low miles on them. I've seen some decent prices in the mid 20's for Model Y's. Some with fairly low miles. Supposedly, Tesla prices drop 3x faster than many other vehicles.

Statements like that make it sound worse than it is. Most of the price drops were historically due to falling new car prices, which directly impact used car prices of course. We saw some of that with our 2023 MY LR trade-in, since we paid 60k for that vehicle alone (without FSD), with just one added option (an upgraded wheel/tire package). That same vehicle starts at $48k today. The challenge with statements like three times faster, is they never provide the rate of depreciation upon which that statement is based. If its 1%, then it's 3% for example.

Now that Iran is being taken out of the oil market, my thought is oil prices will increase, making gas prices increase to the point that EV's might become popular. I'm waiting to see what happens with the used Tesla Model Y's and used Lexus RX's. Interesting is the Lexus is not really depreciating fast enough to where it makes sense to buy used but the Tesla's are.

Bill

https://www.reddit.com/r/electricvehicles/comments/1jdogn0/tesla_used_car_prices_are_falling_at_3x_the_rest

I think I said this previously, but my recommendation is to find a 2023+ Model Y with AI4 FSD computer. 2023 models have the upgraded comfort suspension, the Ryzen CPU processor as opposed to the Intel processor (important for various software features), and a few other enhancements from a minor refresh in Q1 2023. AI4 came long in the second half of 2023 calendar year. If you could care less about FSD then that's not important, but word to the wise, I've had so many people who said that, and then they actually experience it, and want it, and come to find out that their HW3 computer doesn't run the current FSD versions, and while definitely worthwhile, it's not as good as AI4 FSD equipped vehicles, and the delta is likely to increase over time, not decrease.