You're Being Lied to About Electric Cars

[Passepartout]

What are the advantages and disadvantages of plug-in hybrids compared to traditional hybrids?

The advantage is that the car plugs into household current at home and then can run a certain number of miles as a pure EV. Our Honda Clarity goes 35-45 miles depending on the usual variables- speed, temperature, load- then automatically (or by driver choice) starts it's ICE motor and continues on as a traditional hybrid, using some electric boost and getting reclaimed power from braking.

The only disadvantage I can see is there is some weight involved in toting around the larger battery pack. The car draws about the same power as a toaster. It's 17kWh battery takes up to 10 hours to charge from 0%.

Our car easily handles our day-to-day, around town driving 100% on electrons and the only time we burn any gas is when we take a highway trip. If we wish, we can charge at a commercial charger, but we don't need to. It can also charge the hybrid battery from the ICE, but it really sucks the gas if we select this.

Overall, from new, almost 5 years (60,000 mi) it has come in at 60 mpg average.

Jim

 

[HitchHiker71]

The only disadvantage I can see is there is some weight involved in toting around the larger battery pack. The car draws about the same power as a toaster. It's 17kWh battery takes up to 10 hours to charge from 0%.

Our car easily handles our day-to-day, around town driving 100% on electrons and the only time we burn any gas is when we take a highway trip.

Overall, from new, almost 5 years (60,000 mi) it has come in at 60 mpg average.

Jim

Your example is exactly why PHEVs are good options for many who aren't ready to dive into a BEV outright. It's also worth mentioning that PHEVs are included in the IRA legislation for tax credits - so you can drive down the net price of the vehicle further if your PHEV qualifies. The daily driving is largely covered by the battery propulsion, and a 17kwh battery can be charged on a normal 120v outlet in roughly 10-12 hours even fully depleted - figure 2-3 miles per hour from a 110v outlet on average. My Tesla MY LR in comparison has a 81kwh battery pack - so we need a dedicated 60amp home charging circuit that can recharge up to 44 miles per hour in comparison.

For those interested in which PHEVs currently qualify for the federal tax credit - you can go here and make your selections and see the list of qualifying PHEVs:

Federal Tax Credits for Plug-in Electric and Fuel Cell Electric Vehicles Purchased in 2023 or After

Save up to $7,500 on qualifying vehicles!

fueleconomy.gov

 

[DRIless]

Benita Kayembe takes hard look at hidden human cost of electric cars

Graduating Chan School student Benita Kayembe is examining the vast hazardous, informal mining sector in the DRC, which accounts for 20 percent of that nation’s cobalt, a key element fueling the planet’s surge toward a fossil fuel free future.

news.harvard.edu

 

[Brett]

Your example is exactly why PHEVs are good options for many who aren't ready to dive into a BEV outright. It's also worth mentioning that PHEVs are included in the IRA legislation for tax credits - so you can drive down the net price of the vehicle further if your PHEV qualifies. The daily driving is largely covered by the battery propulsion, and a 17kwh battery can be charged on a normal 110v outlet in roughly 10-12 hours even fully depleted - figure 2-3 miles per hour from a 110v outlet on average. My Tesla MY LR in comparison has a 81kwh battery pack - so we need a dedicated 60amp home charging circuit that can recharge up to 44 miles per hour in comparison.

For those interested in which PHEVs currently qualify for the federal tax credit - you can go here and make your selections and see the list of qualifying PHEVs:

Federal Tax Credits for Plug-in Electric and Fuel Cell Electric Vehicles Purchased in 2023 or After

Save up to $7,500 on qualifying vehicles!

fueleconomy.gov

I plan on buying a plug-in hybrid in a couple of years.


"Toyota is looking for 70% of its sales to be electrified by 2030, of which the majority will be hybrids - a significant portion” will be plug-in hybrids."

 

[Superchief]

I plan on buying a plug-in hybrid in a couple of years.


"Toyota is looking for 70% of its sales to be electrified by 2030, of which the majority will be hybrids - a significant portion” will be plug-in hybrids."

If this administration would focus more on transitioning people to plug-in hybrids they could save billions of tax dollars that are being used for charging stations. This could then be pursued by the private sector and inflation and taxes could be reduced.

 

[Superchief]

Your example is exactly why PHEVs are good options for many who aren't ready to dive into a BEV outright. It's also worth mentioning that PHEVs are included in the IRA legislation for tax credits - so you can drive down the net price of the vehicle further if your PHEV qualifies. The daily driving is largely covered by the battery propulsion, and a 17kwh battery can be charged on a normal 110v outlet in roughly 10-12 hours even fully depleted - figure 2-3 miles per hour from a 110v outlet on average. My Tesla MY LR in comparison has a 81kwh battery pack - so we need a dedicated 60amp home charging circuit that can recharge up to 44 miles per hour in comparison.

For those interested in which PHEVs currently qualify for the federal tax credit - you can go here and make your selections and see the list of qualifying PHEVs:

Federal Tax Credits for Plug-in Electric and Fuel Cell Electric Vehicles Purchased in 2023 or After

Save up to $7,500 on qualifying vehicles!

fueleconomy.gov

Would the batteries last longer and be less expensive than for EV's?

 

[HitchHiker71]

If this administration would focus more on transitioning people to plug-in hybrids they could save billions of tax dollars that are being used for charging stations. This could then be pursued by the private sector and inflation and taxes could be reduced.

The Tesla Supercharger network is 100% funded by Tesla, always has been. Tesla walked away from public funding due to the integration requirements: https://electrek.co/2023/03/14/tesl...hargers because of payment system integration

 

[Passepartout]

Would the batteries last longer and be less expensive than for EV's?

I don't think it makes much difference. After nearly 20 years experience with hybrids, 5 of those with a plug-in, we see some degradation in the battery 'longevity'. That said, because the hybrid battery is smaller (less capacity) and the car is not fully dependent on it, like an BEV is, it's cheaper and easier to replace/service. OTOH, there is also an ICE and all it's attendant stuff that a BEV doesn't have. Like oil changes, a cooling system, it's own 12v electrical system, etc. that are subject to breakdown just like your current ICE vehicle.

Our plug-in came with (they advertised) 47 miles of EV range- that depends on conditions- now, after 5 years, it only charges to the mid- 30's. That number will go up as summer and higher temps help the battery accept more charge, and we don't use the cabin heat. But then again as we use the a/c, it'll go down again. Climate control is handled by the hybrid battery.

In either case, I think any hybrid will give at least 10 years of reliable service before any battery service should be indicated. I think all of the makers are warranting the hybrid system that long.

Jim

 

[HitchHiker71]

Would the batteries last longer and be less expensive than for EV's?

They would likely be less expensive because these batteries are only a fraction of the size of a BEV battery, but the battery chemistry is essentially or in many cases literally the same - so they wouldn't last any longer. The primary factors for battery longevity are battery chemistry and BMS - Battery Management Software. This is where Tesla has a marked advantage over any other BEV manufacturer given all Tesla BEVs provide OTA battery usage data back to Tesla, and there are far more Tesla BEVs on the road today than any other manufacturer - so Tesla has a TON more battery usage data at its disposal to improve BMS and chemistry using real world data. This is in part why Tesla BEVs are more efficient than other BEVs - and why other BEVs are using larger battery packs to deliver the same range - because their BMS is not nearly as mature and efficient as the Tesla BMS.

If I were to consider buying a HEV or PHEV - I'd almost assuredly go with a Toyota Prius or Prius Prime - again because Toyota has decades of real world experience building HEVs, and their PHEVs are essentially HEVs with a plug-in option in most respects.

 

[Superchief]

Our plug-in came with (they advertised) 47 miles of EV range- that depends on conditions- now, after 5 years, it only charges to the mid- 30's. That number will go up as summer and higher temps help the battery accept more charge, and we don't use the cabin heat. But then again as we use the a/c, it'll go down again. Climate control is handled by the hybrid battery.

In either case, I think any hybrid will give at least 10 years of reliable service before any battery service should be indicated. I think all of the makers are warranting the hybrid system that long.

Jim

Does the climate control still work if only the gas power is available?

 

[HitchHiker71]

Does the climate control still work if only the gas power is available?

Yes. Older HEVs/PHEVs used resistance heating combined with a traditional AC unit while newer models use heat pump units for all HVAC - either of which are primarily powered by the battery. As the battery drains - or it gets much colder outside and/or in the cabin - the gas engine starts up to provide auxiliary power to feed the HVAC unit and/or to recharge the battery pack. You'll never be without HVAC. One of the great features of BEVs, or at least Tesla BEVs, is that you can control/schedule the HVAC ahead of departure times - a feature called preconditioning (which on a BEV also preheats the battery pack itself). My wife absolutely loves this feature - she literally never gets into a hot/cold vehicle any longer - it's always at 70 degrees when she goes to work and leaves work for the day. It's the little creature comforts that matter in life right? I'm not sure if any PHEVS offer this capability at this time.

 

[Passepartout]

Does the climate control still work if only the gas power is available?

Climate control works fine on hybrid (gas) power. We can't pre-condition it on household current plug-in, but the heat/seat heat/or a/c is blowing heat or cold within a half block from the garage.

 

[emeryjre]

They would likely be less expensive because these batteries are only a fraction of the size of a BEV battery, but the battery chemistry is essentially or in many cases literally the same - so they wouldn't last any longer. The primary factors for battery longevity are battery chemistry and BMS - Battery Management Software. This is where Tesla has a marked advantage over any other BEV manufacturer given all Tesla BEVs provide OTA battery usage data back to Tesla, and there are far more Tesla BEVs on the road today than any other manufacturer - so Tesla has a TON more battery usage data at its disposal to improve BMS and chemistry using real world data. This is in part why Tesla BEVs are more efficient than other BEVs - and why other BEVs are using larger battery packs to deliver the same range - because their BMS is not nearly as mature and efficient as the Tesla BMS.

If I were to consider buying a HEV or PHEV - I'd almost assuredly go with a Toyota Prius or Prius Prime - again because Toyota has decades of real world experience building HEVs, and their PHEVs are essentially HEVs with a plug-in option in most respects.

Toyota has been building hybrids for longer than any other manufacturer. The Toyota way has been to make incremental improvements in existing technology. Toyota also has been very conservative with battery technology. They have used lithium batteries that are not cutting edge, but with proven track record for reliability. I currently own a Prius Plug in from 2017. Has 50K miles on it and no issues. Instead of buying a more expensive vehicle, I bought a second home and two rental properties. The income is nice in retirement.

 

[emeryjre]

An update on insurance costs for EVs and PHEVs VS ICE vehicles.

EVs still cost much more than gas cars to insure—even hybrids

Tesla is second only to Maserati in annual premium cost—a whopping $3,419 on average, annually, which is more than double the average amount for a number of mainstream brands.

www.greencarreports.com

 

[HitchHiker71]

An update on insurance costs for EVs and PHEVs VS ICE vehicles.

EVs still cost much more than gas cars to insure—even hybrids

Tesla is second only to Maserati in annual premium cost—a whopping $3,419 on average, annually, which is more than double the average amount for a number of mainstream brands.

www.greencarreports.com

We are paying $625.76 every six months on our brand new Tesla Model Y through State Farm, so the average in this article seems really high at almost $3500/year - or $1750 every six months for direct comparison. Granted this is anecdotal - and we did see an increase when comparing this amount to the 2017 Honda Accord EX-L that we replaced - which was at $450 every six months prior - so overall BEVs do seem more expensive to insure - largely due to increases in repair costs primarily due to a lack of third party part replacement options in the marketplace.

 

[HitchHiker71]

CarMax: Tesla is the most popular pre-owned brand as EV interest spikes

CarMax: Tesla is the most popular pre-owned brand as EV interest spikes

CarMax, the largest used car retailer in the US, is seeing a huge spike in electric vehicle interest. In its annual EV consumer report, CarMax found that search volume for the word “electric” doubled from February of last year to this year, when the retailer compiled data for its last EV report.

finance.yahoo.com

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[emeryjre]

We are paying $625.76 every six months on our brand new Tesla Model Y through State Farm, so the average in this article seems really high at almost $3500/year - or $1750 every six months for direct comparison. Granted this is anecdotal - and we did see an increase when comparing this amount to the 2017 Honda Accord EX-L that we replaced - which was at $450 every six months prior - so overall BEVs do seem more expensive to insure - largely due to increases in repair costs primarily due to a lack of third party part replacement options in the marketplace.

The comments on GreenCarReports in response to the article match your response. EV's are more expensive, but not as high as claimed in the article. Your real world information of $450.00 for old vehicle vs 625.76 for new vehicle or 625-450 = $175 equals about 39%. (175/450) = 39%. With insurance inflation, it is not possible to equate the entire increase to the new vehicle. But we all agree EV's are more expensive to insure.

 

[Passepartout]

As luck would have it we got our insurance bill in the last few days. It is bundled with homeowners insurance, some jewelry and an umbrella policy. The Honda PHEV is $925 for the next year. That's for 2 seniors, clean driving record, no claims, and no minors.

 

[HitchHiker71]

The SC network is one of the primary reasons we chose Tesla for our BEV - and the stats continue to show a marked advantage for Tesla’s SC network over time:

Tesla Supercharger reliability continues to dominate industry

A new report from Rate Your Charge shows the massive gap in reliability between Tesla and its competitors.

www.teslarati.com

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Carolinian]

 

[Brett]

LOL

leaking gasoline destroys car !

Do Not use this dangerous gasoline substance !

.



(and don't me started on extremely dangerous propane tanks and natural gas, that stuff should be illegal

 

[HitchHiker71]

That video was from back in February at the Ford F150 Lightning plant that resulted in Ford shutting down F150 Lightning production for several weeks to address this defect. Just goes to show how important BMS is when it comes to BEVs. That's why I'd only buy a BEV from a manufacturer with over a decade of real world mass market experience with BEVs and particularly the battery pack and BMS under their belt. Tesla has over 4mm BEVs on the road - and hundreds of millions of miles of real world usage data - much more than any other manufacturer by far - and experience matters when it comes to newer technologies being used in BEVs today. I'm sure the legacy manufacturers will eventually catch up - but I'm not going to take any chances on an issue like this one coming up after the fact. Same thing happened with the Chevy Bolt that required all 141k Bolts to be recalled and all of their battery packs replaced after the fact. No thanks.

 

[DrQ]

... Same thing happened with the Chevy Bolt that required all 141k Bolts to be recalled and all of their battery packs replaced after the fact. No thanks.

The Bolt recall was due to a manufacturing defect from the battery supplier.

 

[HitchHiker71]

The Bolt recall was due to a manufacturing defect from the battery supplier.

Overall point being - experience matters a LOT. It's not easy to manufacture battery packs and BMS that consistently work over the long term. Tesla has more real world experience than any other legacy auto manufacturer by orders of magnitude - and works hand in hand leveraging a vertically integrated engineering team alongside their selectively chosen battery pack manufacturers from initial pack design and actual production and assembly. The battery pack and the BMS are the two single most important components of any BEV IMHO. Sure people want creature comforts and features beyond that - but when it comes to considering a BEV purchase right now - I'd recommend people seriously consider Tesla for this reason alone. They've been through the school of hard knocks with early adopter BEVs starting in 2010 and into 2012 when mass production of the MS started.

LG Chem, who manufactured the battery packs for GM for the Chevy Bolt, didn't have anywhere near as much experience manufacturing battery packs as compared to Panasonic or CATL for example. That was an expensive lesson for LG Chem - who agreed to reimburse GM some $1.9bb to replace the packs in the Chevy Bolts. GM doesn't have the vertical integration in place like Tesla does - they are leveraging the same models that legacy auto manufacturers have always used - using parts suppliers to provide the parts and then assembling the vehicle using those parts from the third party suppliers - including the battery packs. The Ford battery packs are primarily from SK On (similar to LG Chem), a Korean battery pack manufacturer. Again, no vertical engineering integration at all. This is likely why GM, Ford, and other legacy manufacturers are busily building their own battery assembly plants now - because they learned the hard way not to rely on third party battery pack suppliers without vertically integrated engineering from the initial design phases on up through mass production methods and delivery processes. Tesla does both - they are using Panasonic and CATL batteries - designed and built using vertically integrated engineering teams cross-company - and are now building and ramping up their own 4680 battery packs completely in-house.

 

[LannyPC]

What are the advantages and disadvantages of plug-in hybrids compared to traditional hybrids?

The owner of this channel is Car Help Corner. He has some good videos about buying cars.