You're Being Lied to About Electric Cars

[Superchief]

Excellent article. I think for people who are still in the rat race BEVs make a lot more sense for daily driving - i.e. for commuting - which makes up 90%+ of our vehicle usage - along with a few longer trips made throughout the year that may require the charging networks. For many of the TUG folks - a strong subset of which are retired and living "the good life" in their golden years - with much more of a focus on leisure travel with much higher frequencies in their lives - EVs may not be as good a fit in comparison. Still doable without a doubt - but I'm not surprised to see many TUGGERs with little to no interest in BEVs with this in mind. BEVs also cost more than ICE vehicles - at least initial cost - though an argument could be made that the long term maintenance costs are much lower for BEVs - so for those that can afford the cost differential yet may still be concerned about ongoing maintenance costs due to being on more of a fixed income - BEVs still may be worthy of consideration. Every person would need to run their own numbers based upon their lifestyle choices and requirements and see what makes the most sense.

I think another factor is the geographic location/climate and sources of electricity. If I lived in CA or a desert area, I would invest in solar energy for my house. This, combined with a milder climate, would make an EV much more appealing. There is also a greater need in these areas to reduce carbon emissions due to stagnate air and fewer forests.

 

[Carolinian]

Infographic: Where Electric Cars Are (Not) Being Considered

This chart shows the share of U.S. respondents that said they consider the propulsion type 'electric' when buying a car, by state.

www.statista.com

 

[emeryjre]

Infographic: Where Electric Cars Are (Not) Being Considered

This chart shows the share of U.S. respondents that said they consider the propulsion type 'electric' when buying a car, by state.

www.statista.com

Any polls on the number of people considering a used Rolls Royce for their next car purchase. Asking for a friend.

 

[Carolinian]

Used electric car prices plunge in March - some EVs are down 30%

EXCLUSIVE: New data for second-hand car prices in March reveals that electric vehicles make up the 20 biggest value fallers compared to the same month a year ago. See which motors are up most.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Brett]

Electric Cars Are Starting to Reshape Jobs and Companies​

The state, heavily dependent on the auto industry, is a case study in whether electric vehicles will create or destroy jobs.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/05/business/energy-environment/ohio-electric-vehicles-jobs.html


Mr. Belmer says he is excited. G.M. is converting his factory to produce electric motors, part of an industrial transformation that will redefine manufacturing regions and jobs around the world.
G.M., Ford Motor and other carmakers announced investments of more than $50 billion in new factories in the United States last year, according to the Center for Automotive Research in Ann Arbor, Mich. All but a small fraction of that money was to build and retool plants for electric vehicles and batteries.
Mr. Belmer is one of thousands of people who will also have to pick up new skills. “It’s going to be a little bit of a learning curve,” he said at the Toledo factory. “But our guys are well equipped to handle this.”

Volkswagen Will Invest $193 Billion in Electric Cars and Software​

The German automaker announced a plan to accelerate its transition to battery-powered vehicles and bolster operations in China and North America.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/14/...IN_CONTENT_1&block=storyline_top_links_recirc

 

[Carolinian]

Quebec man says he's lucky to be alive after fire erupts in his Tesla

A Sherbrooke man says he barely escaped with his life after his car mysteriously erupted into flames while driving earlier this month. The incident occurred in Montreal on March 5 at around 1 a.m. Sacha De Santis says he had just stepped into his high-end Tesla, the Model X, when smoke began to...

montreal.ctvnews.ca

 

[Rjbeach2003]

I'm 76, just bought a gas powered pickup. It'll probably last 20 years. I couldn't give a rat's behind what you people drive 20 years from now, I don't care what gender you want to be associated with, I don't care what wars you think are necessary, I don't care if you ponder if peanut butter is healthy or not. I'm retired and I'm going to enjoy the next 20 no matter what issue you think is going to save the planet from destruction.

Summer is coming, it's nearly gin and tonic season. How to make a proper one is something to ponder and discuss.

Well I am 76 as well and am planning an EV purchase for our next vehicle. It's nice you don't give a crap about the future except for your gin and tonics.

 

[Carolinian]

Well I am 76 as well and am planning an EV purchase for our next vehicle. It's nice you don't give a crap about the future except for your gin and tonics.

It is debatable whether the rise of EV's are a good or bad thing for the future. People should buy the car they want and that suits them, not try to virtue signal.

 

[Brett]

It is debatable whether the rise of EV's are a good or bad thing for the future. People should buy the car they want and that suits them, not try to virtue signal.

But it's not debatable that fossil fuels are non-renewable and will eventually run out

"virtue signal"

New Ram electric pickup truck can go up to 500 miles on a charge​

https://apnews.com/article/ram-rev-new-york-auto-show-electric-90c212695070e2947efc7ba239bf4ab7

 

[Passepartout]

But it's not debatable that fossil fuels are non-renewable and will eventually run out

"virtue signal"

New Ram electric pickup truck can go up to 500 miles on a charge​

https://apnews.com/article/ram-rev-new-york-auto-show-electric-90c212695070e2947efc7ba239bf4ab7

Key words, 'up to'. Substantial, no doubt, but over time, and under adverse conditions (high speed, cold weather, some age) this WILL drop.

 

[geist1223]

And that is without a load such as a Trailer or Camper.

 

[emeryjre]

These range estimates are as reliable as the MPG estimates on ICE vehicles.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Figured I would take a few moments and outline our Tesla Model Y Long Range BEV ownership experience after having taken delivery on 3/30/2023. We're almost 10 days into our ownership experience. The MY is my wife's daily driver now - having just sold our 2017 Honda Accord EX-L to Carvana last Thursday. Shout out to Carvana - great price and the easiest sale process I've ever been through with any "dealership" ever. Zero haggling - the person who intakes your vehicle doesn't even have any ability to talk about price or anything related to it - they are simply performing the ownership transfer and green lighting the transfer of funds after a quick inspection of your vehicle.

OK, back to the Tesla - let's do a pros/cons list - perhaps this format may help others who are considering a BEV purchase and specifically a Tesla purchase in the future:

Pros:

• Fast is an under-statement. We have the Acceleration Boost software upgrade - and this thing literally scoots to 60MPH in under four seconds and the 1/4 mile in the very low 12's at over 115MPH. That's crazy quick for a CUV no matter how you slice it. If quick acceleration is desirable - it's hard to beat a BEV - and particularly a Tesla.
• Handling is pretty sharp when in sport mode. Steering is spot on and even on the all season tires (ours has the upgraded 20" Induction wheel and tire package) - it sticks to the pavement very well - and with a lower center of gravity thanks to the heavy battery pack on the underside of the vehicle - it feels very planted overall - even when taking turns at a healthy clip.
• The full glass roof is a nice touch - makes the cabin feel more open and airy - and it's dark enough that you don't bake in the sun at the same time. This same feature is also a con - listed in the cons section below.
• One Pedal Driving - with regenerative braking to recover power back into the battery pack - there's little to no need to actually use the disc brakes unless you underestimate the distance needed for the regenerative braking to stop the vehicle or require harder braking for whatever reason. With little to no use of the actual disc brakes - changing pads and rotors is almost never needed when compared to an ICE vehicle. This same function is why BEVs have better eMPG in city driving vs highway cruising - lots more regenerative braking in stop and go traffic.
• Autopilot/Autosteer - we haven't yet purchased the Enhanced Autopilot featureset - not sure if we will - but I've been using the basic Autopilot/Autosteer and while not perfect - it's pretty useful and overall does a good job of staying in the lane on highways and managing the speed of the vehicle dynamically to stay with the flow of traffic. This same feature is also a con for other reasons.
• Home Charging - this is a key advantage of any BEV. We have the Tesla Home Connector/Charger installed in our garage. I'm not sure I would recommend owning a BEV without the ability to home charge - at least for any daily driver - given the much cheaper per kwh rates from most utility companies when compared to third party supercharging sites. Our local Tesla Supercharger Gen 3 sites charging 41 cents per kwh - our off-peak rates from Delmarva Power at home are under 12 cents per kwh in comparison.
• Scheduled Off-Peak charging - plug in your Tesla any time at home - and it will only charge during set off-peak hours - this is set within the Tesla app. Saves money while also allowing you to keep the vehicle plugged in whenever is convenient for the owner.
• Decent sound system - the MY has a 14 speaker tuned sound system installed. It's not the best system I've ever heard or owned - but it's plenty capable and sounds very good at higher volumes especially considering the reflective nature of the glass roof.
• Storage - my wife loves the frunk - she uses it for her daily work bags and such - easier to use than the trunk especially when backing into a parking space. The trunk also has a pretty deep storage well - and two decent sized storage pockets on either side of the deep well - and this is in addition to the CUV style hatchback type storage over top of the storage well - and there's a convenient storage cover to hide your valuables for inquiring minds peeking into the hatchback area.
• Folding second row seats - there's powered folding rear seats in the MY - which when combined with the previous bullet point - make for a rather voluminous storage capacity for road trips. We haven't taken a road trip just yet - our first trip will be to Wyndham Old Town Alexandria resort - so we'll get to test out the storage capacity for our typical weekend getaways next weekend.
• The vegan leatherette powered seating is pretty comfortable so far. Again, until we take a longer road trip - I won't be able to say for sure - but when selling my wife's previous daily driver - that was about an hour each way - and I was still plenty comfortable after two hours in the seat - so that's a good sign to me.
• Scheduled Departure mode - a really nice feature whereby - on a per location basis - you can have the vehicle wake up and precondition the cabin - so it's at your desired temperature when you step into the vehicle - this is especially nice during the cold winter and hot summer months - never again will wifey have to get into a cabin and wait for heat or AC. If you have the seat heaters and steering wheel heater set to "Auto" then the seats and steering wheel heating will also precondition. My wife loves this feature - at 5:15 AM when she departs our house - the car interior is at 70 degrees and the seats and steering wheel are preheated. I have this same feature enabled for her work location - so whenever she leaves work around 3:15 PM on her workdays - the same preconditioning takes place.
• Dog Mode - for those with pets - you can set this mode and safely leave your pets unattended in your vehicle - and the screen in the car indicates in big bold letters that the owner will be back soon and that the pet is safely being looked after via sentry mode and with the in-car camera - which the owner can watch via the Tesla app on demand to check on their pet while away from the vehicle. We don't currently have pets - but figured this feature is worth calling out for those who may have pets.
• Spartan interior and a single pane of glass on-center touchscreen. Some folks really like the simplicity of the Tesla M3/MY interiors - especially at night - makes for a nice dark cabin interior. Our son loves it - and my wife likes it. Others want every button lit up brightly with plenty of interior cabin ambient lighting - not going to find this in a MY however. This is also listed under cons.

Cons:

• Autopilot/Autosteer - given this model doesn't have the radar and/or the USS (Ultrasonic Sensors) - and is 100% camera bound/based - this feature can get confused and cause ghost braking events which can occur suddenly. I've not experienced a full-on emergency ghost braking event - but on two occasions now on highway trips I've had the system get confused and start slowing down for no good reason. This seems to occur when the lines on the pavement aren't clear enough - or when you are cresting a hill with an overpass not far out - or when entering a depression with an overpass not far out. I'm guessing it sees the overpass as a potential obstacle in these cases - and starts braking accordingly.
• The full glass roof makes for a boomy interior (this is the word used on the Tesla forums to describe this issue), likely due to a lot of sound reflections when navigating over bumps in the road, potholes, etc. Many Tesla MY owners end up installing sun shades that double as noise reducers to combat this reported issue.
• Lack of Apple Carplay/Android Auto support. This is likely the biggest con for me personally - as I have grown very accustomed to Apple Carplay in my RAM 1500 - I use Siri voice control for almost everything, i.e. "directions to personsnamehere house," and then Siri looks up that contact - grabs the home address - and inputs that into Apple Maps - all without me doing anything other than uttering a single command sentence. This doesn't exist in Tesla's - at least I haven't been able to find it if it does - as they have consciously chosen not to support either Apple or Google integration - Tesla seems to view these entities as competitors. Personally, I feel this is a flimsy excuse of a reason, it's more about Tesla wanting to keep control of their ecosystem and control the user experience - but in my experience to date their systems aren't nearly as mature or as easy to use as Carplay or Android Auto. I'm now using a third party app called Tessie - which does provide support for Siri - so that I can issue commands to the Telsa through shortcuts on my phone through the Tessie app - still a work in progress - but I think this is a HUGE miss on Tesla's part - and quite frankly - their UX team blows chunks compared even to the Tessie app - this is really unforgiveable for a multibillion company with 14 years of BEV production under their belts.
• The Tesla app - particularly the lack of flexibility for the Scheduling/Charging functions -and they seem to be a bit flaky - especially when multiple owners are using the same vehicle and have their own settings. Again, the Tessie app is much better and more flexible in this area and provides more configurability and is more intuitive IMHO.
• Even with the newly monikered "comfort" suspension on the MY starting in 2023 - it's still pretty stiff and doesn't have a lot of give to it - if you don't like a sporty/stiff suspension - and many folks don't especially when compared to other CUVs for example - that offer much more comfortable/cushy rides - the MY may not be for you. The MY Performance model is even worse specific to this issue.
• Spartan interior and a single pane of glass on-center touchscreen. Folks who may really want a gauge cluster for the driver aren't going to like driving the M3/MY Tesla models. There's literally almost no buttons inside the vehicle - so if you are a tactile type person who really likes buttons - the M3/MYs from Tesla aren't going to be your cup of tea. Personally I don't mind this - and neither does my wife - but it's likely not everyone's cup of tea.
• The Park Assist feature - which is still fairly new - just released last week - one of the first Tesla Vision software updates since removing the Ultrasonic Sensors and radar based features - doesn't work very well. It freaks out when attempting to enter or exit our garage doors - and the distance estimates are way off - which doesn't give confidence when attempting to determine when to stop. Fortunately the rear camera views help when backing up - as long as you have decent spatial judgment abilities. This should get better over time as the software matures - but IMHO Tesla made a big mistake removing the USS and radar equipment from recent M3/MY vehicles.

That's about it for now. Happy Easter to those who celebrate! Hope this may help - I will update this list if I have additional observations.

 

[Carolinian]

Lack of chargers, range anxiety, and reliability fears make drivers wary of EVs - Washington Examiner

Electric Vehicles Lack of chargers, range anxiety, and reliability fears make drivers wary of EVs By Breanne Deppisch, Energy and Environment Reporter April 11, 2023 05:00 AM Twitter LinkedIn Facebook Email Print Electric Vehicles Lack of chargers, range anxiety, and reliability fears make...

www.washingtonexaminer.com

 

[emeryjre]

HitchHiker71,

Thanks for update on your experience with your wife's new vehicle. Your attention to detail will help anyone contemplating the purchase of a Tesla Model Y. I appreciate your understanding of the limitations of the Tesla self-driving hardware. It has been my biggest complaint about Tesla's in general.

emeryjre

 

[HitchHiker71]

Lack of chargers, range anxiety, and reliability fears make drivers wary of EVs - Washington Examiner

Electric Vehicles Lack of chargers, range anxiety, and reliability fears make drivers wary of EVs By Breanne Deppisch, Energy and Environment Reporter April 11, 2023 05:00 AM Twitter LinkedIn Facebook Email Print Electric Vehicles Lack of chargers, range anxiety, and reliability fears make...

www.washingtonexaminer.com

IME the vast majority of these complaints apply to non-Tesla BEVs - especially the lack of reliable charging stations. It is widely known that the Tesla Supercharger network is the best network out there - especially when it comes to reliability and availability. EA, Chargepoint, and other charging networks seem to suffer from frequent reliability issues and broken equipment in comparison. Tesla made all of their patents for their SC network public last year so anyone can build them identically now. I find it very interesting that for the majority of vehicle owners, range anxiety really doesn't apply to 90% of daily driving in any way, shape or form. Very few people drive more than 200 miles every day, and if they have a home charger, then this issue is really moot. On the relatively rare occasions when long distance travel comes into the picture, that's the only time the public charging networks come into play really. That's why I mentioned in my pro's list the importance of having a home charger installed and for those who live in apartments, I'd hesitate to own a BEV. But that said, if your commute is let's say 40 miles round trip each day - with our MY - you could safely charge to 90% when needed, and run down to 10% - that's roughly 250 miles between charge sessions. Let's drop that down to 200 assuming less efficiency and slight battery drain overnight each night - that's still 4-5 days between charging sessions at a public SC location. That's likely more than manageable for most folks.

 

[Carolinian]

Finally, the Europeans May Be Rejecting the EV Kool-Aid

You may not know it if you rely solely on American media, but there is a growing revolt across much of Europe against Net Zero mandates in general and electric vehicle mandates in particular. It seem

www.realclearwire.com

 

[tombanjo]

The lack of CarPlay or the android equivalent is annoying, but it does have a very good navigation system with satellite maps. If I am going to an address I do not know, I type it in before I leave. I think - believe- you can say “navigate” to use voice to do this as well. You can use Waze as well from a browser

You can play music from your phone without CarPlay too.

I am perfectly ok with the phone app. Make calls by hitting mike button and say “Call so and so” and if there are multiple numbers, it gives you a choice (like home or mobile)

 

[Brett]

China Could Dominate the Next Big Advance in Batteries​

China is far ahead of the rest of the world in the development of batteries that use sodium, which are starting to compete with ubiquitous lithium power cells.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/12/business/china-sodium-batteries.html

"China is positioning itself to command the next big innovation in rechargeable batteries: replacing lithium with sodium, a far cheaper and more abundant material.

Sodium, found all over the world as part of salt, sells for 1 to 3 percent of the price of lithium and is chemically very similar. Recent breakthroughs mean that sodium batteries can now be recharged daily for years, chipping away at a key advantage of lithium batteries. The energy capacity of sodium batteries has also increased.

sodium batteries come with a big advantage: They keep almost all of their charge when temperatures fall far below freezing, something lithium batteries typically do not do."

 

[tombanjo]

The lack of CarPlay or the android equivalent is annoying, but it does have a very good navigation system with satellite maps. If I am going to an address I do not know, I type it in before I leave. I think - believe- you can say “navigate” to use voice to do this as well.

 

[HitchHiker71]

The lack of CarPlay or the android equivalent is annoying, but it does have a very good navigation system with satellite maps. If I am going to an address I do not know, I type it in before I leave. I think - believe- you can say “navigate” to use voice to do this as well. You can use Waze as well from a browser

You can play music from your phone without CarPlay too.

I am perfectly ok with the phone app. Make calls by hitting mike button and say “Call so and so” and if there are multiple numbers, it gives you a choice (like home or mobile)

Carplay plays music at a higher fidelity than bluetooth - which matters to some. Signal to noise ratio is much higher (better) when using Carplay for example. Bluetooth also does not support the ability to navigate by contact name such as "navigate to personsnamehere's home." At least I cannot get it to work - and this is one of the primary purposes of having Carplay for navigation - I don't remember people's addresses - but my phone does. The browser is decent yes, but you also have to keep it loaded on the screen for it to work properly in most cases - if you minimize the browser into the background - most of the navigation and music apps stop working/playing. I routinely use abettertheater.com/tesla to stream Amazon music for example - but if I minimize the browser to make a configuration change in the car, it stops playing the music stream every time. There is no question that app support is better - including AC/AA. It's a compromise using simple bluetooth connectivity -and if you're going to spend 60k on a CUV - I don't expect to have to compromise.

 

[Ralph Sir Edward]

China Could Dominate the Next Big Advance in Batteries​

China is far ahead of the rest of the world in the development of batteries that use sodium, which are starting to compete with ubiquitous lithium power cells.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/12/business/china-sodium-batteries.html

"China is positioning itself to command the next big innovation in rechargeable batteries: replacing lithium with sodium, a far cheaper and more abundant material.

Sodium, found all over the world as part of salt, sells for 1 to 3 percent of the price of lithium and is chemically very similar. Recent breakthroughs mean that sodium batteries can now be recharged daily for years, chipping away at a key advantage of lithium batteries. The energy capacity of sodium batteries has also increased.

sodium batteries come with a big advantage: They keep almost all of their charge when temperatures fall far below freezing, something lithium batteries typically do not do."

They are supposedly much less likely to burn, as well. However, we won't know that until we have some real-world experiences with them.

 

[HitchHiker71]

China Could Dominate the Next Big Advance in Batteries​

China is far ahead of the rest of the world in the development of batteries that use sodium, which are starting to compete with ubiquitous lithium power cells.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/12/business/china-sodium-batteries.html

"China is positioning itself to command the next big innovation in rechargeable batteries: replacing lithium with sodium, a far cheaper and more abundant material.

Sodium, found all over the world as part of salt, sells for 1 to 3 percent of the price of lithium and is chemically very similar. Recent breakthroughs mean that sodium batteries can now be recharged daily for years, chipping away at a key advantage of lithium batteries. The energy capacity of sodium batteries has also increased.

sodium batteries come with a big advantage: They keep almost all of their charge when temperatures fall far below freezing, something lithium batteries typically do not do."

Sodium batteries are realistically not a replacement for LI-NMC batteries today. It's a promising technology - but as this article points out - sodium's biggest deterrent is it's not proven for durability yet, and it has less energy density than LI-NMC batteries. This doesn't matter for commercial power storage for example - they just build bigger megapacks - but in a vehicle with limited space for battery storage - it matters a lot. CATL is building hybrid packs that contain both LI based cells and sodium cells first - while producing sodium packs for non-vehicle uses such as megapacks for power storage. The US also has 90% of world reserves for soda ash - the common base for sodium mining - which means if/when this becomes feasible - we're in a good position to bring sodium batteries to market ourselves.

From the article:

Sodium batteries need to be bigger than lithium ones to hold the same electrical charge. That is a problem for cars, which have limited space, but not for electricity grid storage. Utilities that switch from lithium to sodium can simply put twice as many big batteries in an empty lot near solar panels or wind turbines.

There are also doubts about the durability of sodium batteries. Power companies want to see how sodium batteries perform for years outdoors, not just in labs, said David Fishman, a power sector consultant at Lantau Group, a consulting firm.

 

[emeryjre]

CATL, the worlds largest producer of Lithium batteries has been promising an update on Sodium Batteries this spring. CATL made some preliminary announcements in 2021 and is promising and update. Perhaps there will be an update at the auto show next week. Several smaller battery manufactures are already in full scale production of sodium batteries to be used in new inexpensive vehicles for sale in China. Sodium batteries are also used in data centers for battery backup. Density is not an issue in data centers, but their stability and lack of flammability make them the go to battery backup.

China's CATL unveils sodium-ion battery - a first for a major car battery maker

China's CATL (300750.SZ) on Thursday became the first major automotive battery maker to unveil a sodium-ion battery, saying it planned to set up a supply chain for the new technology in 2023.

www.reuters.com

 

[HitchHiker71]

The lack of CarPlay or the android equivalent is annoying, but it does have a very good navigation system with satellite maps. If I am going to an address I do not know, I type it in before I leave. I think - believe- you can say “navigate” to use voice to do this as well.

The biggest advantage of the Tesla navigation is the integration of the SC network and the system's ability to track SC usage and to route Tesla owners to SCs that have open slots. This will become less prevalent as Tesla opens up their SC network to non-Tesla vehicles however - unless Tesla is going to open up APIs to these functions so that other manufacturers can add the same functions to their respective navigation software/systems.