You're Being Lied to About Electric Cars

[Carolinian]

just to be clear, your argument is that you survived a crash 60 years ago that you felt you would not have survived if in a modern vehicle?

very thankful you and your other passengers werent hurt, but this is the very definition of an anecdote. especially with millions, and millions of car crashes every year.

The size and the materials of a modern car would not have held up in that crash. Even with stronger materials, my 1968 MGB would also probably not have held up due to size. Cars of that era have a solid steel frame, unlike the unibody construction today, and that offered more protection in a crash from the side like that, as well as the body panels being made of thicker metal.

My personal experience in lesser wrecks I have been in is consistent. I was rear ended on Corfu in Greece when I was on a timeshare exchange. I was driving a smaller modern rental car and got rearended while I was stopped with my turn signal on by a Greek who had been drinking in a larger older vehicle. The jolt was not that bad, and if the car had airbags, they did not deploy. When I got out, I was shocked at the degree of damage to the rental car, while the damage to the Greek guy's car was minimal. The rental was barely drivable and the rental company office swapped it out for another. When I turned in the substitute rental at Athens, they told me they had totalled the car in the wreck.

My experience with being rearended in a 1965 Oldsmobile Cutlass while I was in high school, hit in the side in a 1968 GTO while in high school, and hit in the side in my current 1968 Cutlass convertible all taught me that large strongly built cars offer good protection in an accident, and the cars themselves do not sustain as much damage.

 

[Brett]

The size and the materials of a modern car would not have held up in that crash. Even with stronger materials, my 1968 MGB would also probably not have held up due to size. Cars of that era have a solid steel frame, unlike the unibody construction today, and that offered more protection in a crash from the side like that, as well as the body panels being made of thicker metal.

My personal experience in lesser wrecks I have been in is consistent. I was rear ended on Corfu in Greece when I was on a timeshare exchange. I was driving a smaller modern rental car and got rearended while I was stopped with my turn signal on by a Greek who had been drinking in a larger older vehicle. The jolt was not that bad, and if the car had airbags, they did not deploy. When I got out, I was shocked at the degree of damage to the rental car, while the damage to the Greek guy's car was minimal. The rental was barely drivable and the rental company office swapped it out for another. When I turned in the substitute rental at Athens, they told me they had totalled the car in the wreck.

My experience with being rearended in a 1965 Oldsmobile Cutlass while I was in high school, hit in the side in a 1968 GTO while in high school, and hit in the side in my current 1968 Cutlass convertible all taught me that large strongly built cars offer good protection in an accident, and the cars themselves do not sustain as much damage.

seat belts, airbags, anti-lock braking systems, etc. have made modern cars more safer than older cars

 

[DrQ]

I have seen the results of several actual crashes, where the classic car was barely damaged and the modern car had severe damage. Also, a lot that can be repaired on a classic car has to be totally replaced on the newer cars. It takes almost nothing to require a complete replacement of one of those ugly body colored bumpers on a modern car, for example. Calling it a "crumple zone" is appropriate when they use substandard materials like plastic and thin metal because it certainly will crumple. I wonder how long until they start using cardboard like the old East German Trabant.

That is the fallacy in that thought line.

If the car does not deform in the collision, that energy is transferred to the passengers that will either bounce around in the car if not seatbelted or suffer internal injury due to a lap belt.

What you call "inferior materials" are either decorative cladding for style or engineered materials made to deform to absorb energy to reduce the amount of energy transferred to the passengers.

If you look under the plastic bumper covers, you will see a honeycombed bumper which is not attractive, but will absorb energy (one time). Versus, a 1960's chromed piece of steel which will telegraph the energy to the frame just like a drift punch does when you hit it with a hammer.

 

[Passepartout]

Another good example is that a few years ago, there were efforts to crack down on "banger races" (demolition derbies) in the UK using classic cars, which the participants prefered to do because they last a heck of a lot longer in the furball when people were deliberately running into each other than modern cars. Some of the British classic car magazines were trying to find ways to assure that cars were not being bought through their publications by the banger racers and there were protests being organized at the banger races. The simple fact was that the older cars survived collisions with other cars much better.

There is a WORLD of difference between the survivability of occupants in a roadway crash in a vehicle designed as such and a specially prepared 'crash car' with a protective cage around the sole occupant. By your analysis, society would be better protected by everyone driving Sherman tanks and bashing into one another. The survivor had the right-of-way by virtue of having the heavier tank. Sir (or madam), THAT'S ABSURD!

 

[DrQ]

Let's talk about drag strip times:

Tesla Model S Plaid sets new record, covers quarter-mile in 8.834 seconds

Tesla Model S Plaid is the high-performance variant of the Model S sedan.

auto.hindustantimes.com

 

[Carolinian]

seat belts, airbags, anti-lock braking systems, etc. have made modern cars more safer than older cars

Seat belts can be easily retrofited, but I don't think I have ever riden in a car without them. They have been standard equipment for a long time. None of those other things would have helped at all in the accident I was in on that trip to Morrow Mountain. The solid structure of the older car is what saved all of us. Otherwise, the whole car would have probably been a "crumple zone" with all occupants crumpled, too.

 

[Chrispee]

I can’t believe the NHTSA wastes all this money on controlled scientific research and analysis of crash data when they should be hiring a committee of men with long driving histories to collaboratively discuss their anecdotal car crash experiences.

 

[Superchief]

When did China become our enemy. Tesla and over 300 corporations do business in China on a daily basis.

Chinese balloon got intel from U.S. military sites, despite efforts to block it

The intelligence China collected was mostly from electronic signals, which can be picked up from weapons systems or include communications from base personnel.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[emeryjre]

Chinese balloon got intel from U.S. military sites, despite efforts to block it

The intelligence China collected was mostly from electronic signals, which can be picked up from weapons systems or include communications from base personnel.

www.nbcnews.com

The story from NBC does not name the sources of the information. The information is not confirmed by official sources.

Chinese spy balloon gathered intelligence on US military sites- NBC News

A Chinese balloon that flew across the United States was able to gather intelligence from several U.S. military sites and transmit it back to Beijing in real time, despite the Biden administration's efforts to prevent it from doing so, NBC News reported on Monday.

www.reuters.com

 

[Superchief]

Believe what you want. China is the greatest threat to our country currently, both economically and from their military. I don't want our country to rely on them for anything.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Let's talk about drag strip times:

Tesla Model S Plaid sets new record, covers quarter-mile in 8.834 seconds

Tesla Model S Plaid is the high-performance variant of the Model S sedan.

auto.hindustantimes.com

EVs are especially quick without a doubt. Our Tesla MY LR with Acceleration Boost (all MY's are AWD) scoots to 60MPH in under four seconds and hits the 1/4 mile in the very low 12's at over 115MPH. That's pretty incredible for a CUV. This thing pins you to your seat and leaves most other cars in the dust with the instantaneous torque of the electric motors moving at the speed of electrons from the battery as the power source. Last night I jetted out to TGIF for a dinner pickup order. Was sitting at a light and a Dodge Charger Scat Pack pulled up next to me badmouthing EVs as crap. Said he would destroy me in a straight line. I pulled two car lengths out of the hole shot (instant torque is all but unbeatable in these vehicles) and was slowly pulling away from him up to 80MPH when he gave up. We did it again on a rolling start at the next light - nearly the same result - and again he gave up around 80MPH. That's a 485HP Hemi V8 car that can scoot to 60MPH in the low 4 second range with 1/4 mile traps in the low 12's as well - with my Tesla MY CUV only around 400HP - but the efficiency of the electric motors and the instant torque makes them hard to beat on the road under real world driving conditions. Don't mess with EVs - ICE simply cannot compete unless we're talking supercar territory or heavily modified ICE performance cars like a Hellcat or something in reality - and even then - stoplight to stoplight to 60MPH - under real world conditions - 9/10 times the EV will win as it is 100% consistent and easy to just mash the go pedal and hang on for dear life. The computer does the rest.

 

[emeryjre]

The EV acceleration and speed is incredible. Back in the old days (2014) the model S was embarassing all the high end, high horsepower supercars. Pretty quick the ICE guys were trading in for the Model S. I want to try a Plaid Model S in the worst way. But so far, I have not had the chance. But we have to have a goal.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Seat belts can be easily retrofited, but I don't think I have ever riden in a car without them. They have been standard equipment for a long time. None of those other things would have helped at all in the accident I was in on that trip to Morrow Mountain. The solid structure of the older car is what saved all of us. Otherwise, the whole car would have probably been a "crumple zone" with all occupants crumpled, too.

Most modern passenger cars use some form of high strength steel unibody construction for the actual passenger compartment - the crumple zones around that shell are designed to absorb energy and not transfer it into the passenger compartment. Regardless of your anecdotal personal life experiences - the statistics prove that vehicles are far safer today and protect and save many more lives than vehicles built "back in the day" so to speak. Sure, back then the solid structure of the car saved you, because there was nothing else to save you in the car other than a seat belt back then. We can engineer better products today than we could 50 years ago, and it shows. Nowadays we have airbag systems (front and side curtain airbags, etc.), impact crumple zones to minimize the transfer of kinetic energy into the passenger compartment, coupled with computer impact detection systems and avoidance systems that literally save lives every day. This allows us to build vehicles with a lot more added conveniences and amenities while also reducing weight and ensuring passenger safety all at the same time.

 

[MrockStar]

At least the dodge scat pack sounds awesome and at best ties the EV in the 1/4mile while looking very Kool.

 

[HitchHiker71]

The EV acceleration and speed is incredible. Back in the old days (2014) the model S was embarassing all the high end, high horsepower supercars. Pretty quick the ICE guys were trading in for the Model S. I want to try a Plaid Model S in the worst way. But so far, I have not had the chance. But we have to have a goal.

There are two Plaids in our area - I have run across them over the past couple of months but not in our Tesla yet - we just got it last week. I cannot imagine a 1.9 second 60MPH dash in that vehicle. The acceleration in our MY is breathtaking as it is - and the Plaid literally gets to 60MPH in 1/2 the time our MY does.

 

[DrQ]

At least the dodge scat pack sounds awesome and at best ties the EV in the 1/4mile while looking very Kool.

 

[Ralph Sir Edward]

Most modern passenger cars use some form of high strength steel unibody construction for the actual passenger compartment - the crumple zones around that shell are designed to absorb energy and not transfer it into the passenger compartment. Regardless of your anecdotal personal life experiences - the statistics prove that vehicles are far safer today and protect and save many more lives than vehicles built "back in the day" so to speak. Sure, back then the solid structure of the car saved you, because there was nothing else to save you in the car other than a seat belt back then. We can engineer better products today than we could 50 years ago, and it shows. Nowadays we have airbag systems (front and side curtain airbags, etc.), impact crumple zones to minimize the transfer of kinetic energy into the passenger compartment, coupled with computer impact detection systems and avoidance systems that literally save lives every day. This allows us to build vehicles with a lot more added conveniences and amenities while also reducing weight and ensuring passenger safety all at the same time.

That comes at a cost - literally. The rate of write-offs of the value of the car.

 

[DrQ]

The Quickest Cars From 0-60 MPH MotorTrend Has Ever Tested

See which ten cars reach the benchmark mile-a-minute pace the quickest.

www.motortrend.com

 

[DrQ]

That comes at a cost - literally. The rate of write-offs of the value of the car.

What good is a repairable vehicle when one or more of your loved ones may have life altering injuries or are dead?

 

[HitchHiker71]

At least the dodge scat pack sounds awesome and at best ties the EV in the 1/4mile while looking very Kool.

Looks are subjective of course. I don't actually like the look of the Charger all that much personally - and it's got a pretty small interior given the larger size of the vehicle. I prefer the Challenger as opposed to the Charger myself. I had a guy I worked with who owned both back to back a few years back - Challenger first followed by a Charger when his wife got pregnant. I'd much rather have a MY personally - perhaps I'm getting older LOL. It is crazy fast with the added utility of a CUV at the same time, with great handling to boot. The battery packs are heavy - and all that weight is located underneath you which gives BEVs a very low center of gravity compared to ICE vehicles - which helps at least in some respects with both handling and performance. Go drive one - and see if you smile when you mash the go pedal - it's hard to resist if you are a lifelong auto enthusiast like me. I have no allegiances to brands or technologies (ICE vs BEV), I like both for different reasons, and we own both now. I drive a 2018 RAM 1500 hemi pickup that we bought new five years ago now. From a BEV standpoint, it's hard to beat home charging and literally never having to visit a gas station ever again once you down this road - especially for daily driving. Long distance traveling is another topic - but I can get 600 miles on a tank in our pickup on the highway - so we've got both bases covered.

 

[DrQ]

... That's a 485HP Hemi V8 car that can scoot to 60MPH in the low 4 second range with 1/4 mile traps in the low 12's as well - with my Tesla MY CUV only around 400HP - but the efficiency of the electric motors and the instant torque makes them hard to beat on the road under real world driving conditions. ...

485 BHP at the shaft, I would bet that by the time it gets to the wheels, it MAY be ~400 BHP or less.

With a BEV, I would bet that you are getting close to that 400 BHP to the wheels.

 

[HitchHiker71]

485 BHP at the shaft, I would bet that by the time it gets to the wheels, it MAY be ~400 BHP or less.

With a BEV, I would bet that you are getting close to that 400 BHP to the wheels.

Yeah - figure 15-18% drivetrain loss in the ICE vehicle on average. Much less with any BEV electric motor - much more efficient drivetrain. Tesla doesn't really publish HP/TQ numbers either - they publish KwH for the electric motors - so you have to convert. A recent MY Performance model was put on a dyno and measured around 500HP/500TQ on the dyno. Figure mine is about 50HP less than that MYP model - or around 450/450 or so with the Acceleration Boost software upgrade. Not sure of BEV drivetrain loss but I'm sure it's much less than any ICE vehicle.

 

[Chrispee]

I can’t even imagine what a Model S Plaid feels like 0-60. I have a 2019 Model S p100d that does the deed in 2.4 seconds and it’s a fairly violent affair. Honestly it doesn’t feel like it’s great for the car.

 

[DrQ]

How Much EV Range Do You Really Need?​

Bigger has always been better in the United States. That changes with EVs.

How Much EV Range Do You Really Need?

Bigger has always been better in the United States. That changes with EVs.

www.roadandtrack.com

 

[HitchHiker71]

How Much EV Range Do You Really Need?​

Bigger has always been better in the United States. That changes with EVs.

How Much EV Range Do You Really Need?

Bigger has always been better in the United States. That changes with EVs.

www.roadandtrack.com

Excellent article. I think for people who are still in the rat race BEVs make a lot more sense for daily driving - i.e. for commuting - which makes up 90%+ of our vehicle usage - along with a few longer trips made throughout the year that may require the charging networks. For many of the TUG folks - a strong subset of which are retired and living "the good life" in their golden years - with much more of a focus on leisure travel with much higher frequencies in their lives - EVs may not be as good a fit in comparison. Still doable without a doubt - but I'm not surprised to see many TUGGERs with little to no interest in BEVs with this in mind. BEVs also cost more than ICE vehicles - at least initial cost - though an argument could be made that the long term maintenance costs are much lower for BEVs - so for those that can afford the cost differential yet may still be concerned about ongoing maintenance costs due to being on more of a fixed income - BEVs still may be worthy of consideration. Every person would need to run their own numbers based upon their lifestyle choices and requirements and see what makes the most sense.