Vistana rep refused to add a guest name for 10/5 on SBR deeded week, sent me a form to fill out.

[daviator]

I mean, when SBP was built the number of people who could work remotely was very small. And just like most things, if you aren't affecting anyone else you'll never have an issue. If you tried to run a pop-up sports bar or an unlicensed casino from your unit you'd have a problem. Someone working on their laptop would never have an issue.

The "no commercial activity" restriction has been common in residential leases for decades and it may have its origin there, since you typically didn't want your tenant to be running a business out of their apartment or rented house. This dates back to long before there were "knowledge workers" who could work remotely from their homes, it was more about prohibiting someone from throwing up a sign and becoming a retail store or something. When timeshares became a thing, they may have pulled similar language in for the same reason, or they may have been trying to disallow rental businesses. I doubt we will ever know their intent, but if a court had to interpret that clause, I imagine it could be used to prohibit both using a timeshare unit as a place of business, and making a business of renting timeshare VOIs.

I don't think there is any interest or intent to inhibit people from doing remote desk work while they are on vacation in a timeshare unit. But if you decide to pay for your vacation by setting up a temporary nail salon in your room, that would cross the line.

 

[billymach4]

@rickandcindy23 So sorry you had this aggravation. I have not been spending much time here on TUG lately just catching up now.

Out of curiosity? What website was down? Was it the MVC website? Or is it some for of the Vistana side of the house?

That form is the new standard form that was put in place a few months back. I had rented a week via Redweek and that is what I needed to fill out for that particular rental.

I have not read all posts in this past thread? Can someone please care to summarize up to this point in time if the website has been fixed? Has anyone else had the same or similar issue as Cindy?

 

[dioxide45]

@rickandcindy23 So sorry you had this aggravation. I have not been spending much time here on TUG lately just catching up now.

Out of curiosity? What website was down? Was it the MVC website? Or is it some for of the Vistana side of the house?

That form is the new standard form that was put in place a few months back. I had rented a week via Redweek and that is what I needed to fill out for that particular rental.

I have not read all posts in this past thread? Can someone please care to summarize up to this point in time if the website has been fixed? Has anyone else had the same or similar issue as Cindy?

This was a Vistana week. Usually guest name changes can be made online on Vistana.com up till a few days prior to check in. It is a different form than the MVC one. It is more automated with also changing the name on the reservation as well as on Marriott.com. Since Cindy was trying to change the name close to check in, the Vistana.com form wasn’t available. The phone rep instead asked her to use the form that Marriott owners are supposed to use.

 

[LeslieDet]

I assume that the resort can and will make room name changes on site, if the named individual is there to authorize them.

You can check others into your reservation. You can ask the front desk at check in to authorize the person you decide will be there. If they have a BonVoy number, they can request the folio be under their name. They’ll need a credit card too, unless you are using your cc for any charges. You can’t get duplicate ENC, as you already noted. Have fun with your family.

 

[WaikikiFirst]

Not that I know anything, not that I read the whole thread, but a TIGHT definition of "commercial" activity could be
"when you go into every single year thinking (knowing, in fact) you will rent out at least one of your VOI weeks"

Beyond that it is a slippery slope. That seems extreme, I'm sure, but it is a lot more defensible than the slippery slope arguments are.

When you get far beyond that tight definition to renting out many weeks every year, the reason the form is such a problem for some is exactly because it asks them to state that they are NOT doing exactly what they know they ARE doing. Other than that last "commercial" box on the form, the rest are a bunch of CYA due to existing in a CYA society, with too many lawyers looking for Deep Pockets. And the Bonvoy boxes seem to make very clear something that already existed but that people try to squirm their way around.

 

[Robert D]

What seem hypocritical to me about all this is that for deed week resorts, Marriott owns the same thing as any other deeded week owner. However, they rent their units on Marriott.com and can put a guest on their reservations within minutes and don't have to give up to 30 days' notice to add a guest. For resorts that only have deeded weeks, every owner, including Marriott, gets their usage from a deeded week.

 

[daviator]

What seem hypocritical to me about all this is that for deed week resorts, Marriott owns the same thing as any other deeded week owner. However, they rent their units on Marriott.com and can put a guest on their reservations within minutes and don't have to give up to 30 days' notice to add a guest. For resorts that only have deeded weeks, every owner, including Marriott, gets their usage from a deeded week.

The CC&Rs of all the resorts specifically exempt the developer from the "commercial use" rules as well as giving them full ownership of all the inventory at 60 days or less before check in. So in that respect, it's set up to be the way that it is, hypocritical or not.

 

[billymach4]

This was a Vistana week. Usually guest name changes can be made online on Vistana.com up till a few days prior to check in. It is a different form than the MVC one. It is more automated with also changing the name on the reservation as well as on Marriott.com. Since Cindy was trying to change the name close to check in, the Vistana.com form wasn’t available. The phone rep instead asked her to use the form that Marriott owners are supposed to use.

Thank you for the summary of this issue.

 

[SueDonJ]

I was just going to post a variation of this interpretation, completely different take.

Restriction is on usage, not reservation.

You cannot use the unit to conduct business in, only for personal use.

You can rent the unit to someone else for personal use.

I think the commercial use restriction means both, that you can't conduct a business in any units nor can you conduct a business of renting your reservations, with the unstated qualifier that "conduct a business" means, for the manager/developer purposes, "make a profit out of."

Don worked on vacation every single time we vacationed for the entirety of his career (with an accounting firm) and the profit (read: earnings) that he derived from vacation working wasn't a result of our physical timeshare locations but rather from his employer/partnership. IMO the same would be true for every person who did the same during COVID, and IMO those situations aren't what Marriott is concerned with. A nail salon, a pop-up shop, an attorney or accountant scheduling client meetings ... those are what they'd put a stop to and then penalize the owners if they continued, not people bringing their laptops and signing in to do whatever work they'd be doing in their office.

As for rental activity, the provisions in the docs literally say it is included in any list of restricted use. From @dioxide45 Post#38: ... “Commercial purpose” includes a pattern of rental activity or other occupancy by an Owner that the Association, in its reasonable discretion, could conclude constitutes a commercial enterprise or practice. ... and from @rickandcindy23 Post #39: ... "Commercial purpose" includes, but is not limited to, a pattern of rental activity or other occupancy by an Owner that the Association or the Declarant, in their reasonable discretion, could conclude constitutes a commercial enterprise or practice. ... IMO if they decide that it's beneficial to them to put a stop to rental activity by owners making what they consider a substantial profit, there's no question that the language would protect them.

For what it's worth, I've had conversations with Marriott higher-ups about this form. Profitable rental activity is definitely in their sights but they mentioned owners/brokers who can book and rent out many multiples of the highest-demand inventory on a consistent basis. A couple of them admitted that those owners/brokers are the reason that they imposed the 20,000 Club Points transfer-in limit, because it would impede that type of broker rental activity. Whatever other rental limits might be coming down the pike is anyone's guess but for now, at least, they seem to be concerned only with the biggest players.

 

[rickandcindy23]

I guess I cannot stay at Sheraton Broadway Resort and conduct my own timeshare sales' meetings. I was imagining myself selling my Sheraton 2 bedrooms for $1,000 to compete with Marriott. I guess that is against their rules of use.

Truly, I am joking, but I will be wearing my TUG shirt at every resort we stay over the next three weeks. Good thing our resorts have washer/dryer units because I am going to wear that shirt out!

We leave tomorrow to follow Hurricane Milton into Orlando.

 

[EnglishmanAbroad]

I guess I cannot stay at Sheraton Broadway Resort and conduct my own timeshare sales' meetings. I was imagining myself selling my Sheraton 2 bedrooms for $1,000 to compete with Marriott. I guess that is against their rules of use.

Truly, I am joking, but I will be wearing my TUG shirt at every resort we stay over the next three weeks. Good thing our resorts have washer/dryer units because I am going to wear that shirt out!

We leave tomorrow to follow Hurricane Milton into Orlando.

Dang! I was looking forward to attending one of your sales presentations, assuming that you provide free pastries and coffee of course and promise to let me out after 90 minutes

 

[rickandcindy23]

Dang! I was looking forward to attending one of your sales presentations, assuming that you provide free pastries and coffee of course and promise to let me out after 90 minutes

That would be the deal. Food and a 90-minute presentation, while I show you how to run the dishwasher and the washer/dryer unit.

 

[SueDonJ]

That would be the deal. Food and a 90-minute presentation, while I show you how to run the dishwasher and the washer/dryer unit.

I'm in for just the washer/dryer tutorial! We had one stay - I think it was Crystal Shores? - that had a new-fangled-at-the-time single machine that both washed and dried. I put in one small load and was still waiting four hours later for it to be done! Maintenance didn't seem too concerned and told me to wait it out but I never did figure out if the machine was just useless or if I did something wrong. Solve that mystery for me and I'll buy five weeks from you to seed a rental business!

 

[iftravel]

Many conflicts are incentive problem. They reject simply because they can. What’s the upside for them if they don’t have a skin in the game. It would be win-win if any resort has a good rental program. I don’t mind if they take a reasonable cut.

 

[daviator]

I'm in for just the washer/dryer tutorial! We had one stay - I think it was Crystal Shores? - that had a new-fangled-at-the-time single machine that both washed and dried. I put in one small load and was still waiting four hours later for it to be done! Maintenance didn't seem too concerned and told me to wait it out but I never did figure out if the machine was just useless or if I did something wrong. Solve that mystery for me and I'll buy five weeks from you to seed a rental business!

I have some experience with those combination washer-dryers, and my opinion is that they fit the old expression, jack of all trades and master of none. Yes, they wash, and yes, they dry, but they don’t do either very well, and they do them sloooooooowwwllllyyyyyy.

Maybe somebody has developed an all-in-one machine that can prove me wrong, but I haven’t yet seen it.

 

[RunCat]

This is probably why the website was down for days, both Marriott's and Vistana's.

Every time I talk to someone, I feel like they are not trained, and it's their first day on the job. Baptism by fire.
She acted like this was such an imposition to change a name, and she read the rules ALOUD to me, like I am a moron. The website wasn't working for days. How could I add a guest name yesterday or the day before. WE all know what a train wreck the website has been of late.

Such insincerity and blatant disregard of owners' rights to do as we please with our deeded weeks. I am tired of these policies. I was tempted to cancel the week and re-book it, but I was afraid the week would go into Staroptions and not allow me to book it again.

I would argue that there is a difference between renting your week and running a commercial business. The intent of most timeshares is for personal use.

 

[Robert D]

For a long time the Marriott salesmen pitched the fact that you could rent your timeshare for a profit to try to get you to buy.

 

[dioxide45]

For a long time the Marriott salesmen pitched the fact that you could rent your timeshare for a profit to try to get you to buy.

All the timeshare companies do this in one way or another. One argument is that salespeople always lie. The people most vocal about renting their timeshares out in a commercial enterprise are also the most vocal about the negatives of the sales experience. They can't have it both ways. Do the timeshare sales people lie about everything but being able to rent out your timeshare week? Of course not. What ultimately matters is what is written in the governing documents and the contract. Also realize that many people doing what could be defined as commercial renting bought resale.

 

[jp10558]

All the timeshare companies do this in one way or another. One argument is that salespeople always lie. The people most vocal about renting their timeshares out in a commercial enterprise are also the most vocal about the negatives of the sales experience. They can't have it both ways. Do the timeshare sales people lie about everything but being able to rent out your timeshare week? Of course not. What ultimately matters is what is written in the governing documents and the contract. Also realize that many people doing what could be defined as commercial renting bought resale.

Yea, I was going to both sides this a lot, but then I just figured out - those commercial renters are basically scalpers. For the major systems, they're not really providing anything, just skimming off money from renters and availability from owners. For the independent timeshares I could see them providing a service in terms of (if the resort does resale weeks) picking up otherwise delinquent or would become delinquent weeks and doing the marketing needed to actually rent them out, so the resort doesn't have to. But these are also usually less desirable locations so...

 

[WaikikiFirst]

The people most vocal about renting their timeshares out in a commercial enterprise are also the most vocal about the negatives of the sales experience. They can't have it both ways.

Oh but they sure can try.

 

[WaikikiFirst]

hypocritical to me about all this is that for deed week resorts, Marriott owns the same thing as any other deeded week owner. However, they rent their units

Well, Marriott is 100% a commercial entity.
There are many things people call "hypocritical" but they really are not.
There are even more things people call "ironic" that really are not, except maybe in a "What the?" Alanis Morissette way.
I won't bother going thru a half-dozen examples of "I built it. I control it. I made the rules. They're different for you & I."

 

[dioxide45]

Yea, I was going to both sides this a lot, but then I just figured out - those commercial renters are basically scalpers. For the major systems, they're not really providing anything, just skimming off money from renters and availability from owners. For the independent timeshares I could see them providing a service in terms of (if the resort does resale weeks) picking up otherwise delinquent or would become delinquent weeks and doing the marketing needed to actually rent them out, so the resort doesn't have to. But these are also usually less desirable locations so...

The primary difference compared to a scalper is that a scalper is charging more than the going retail rate for event tickets to make money. Most timeshare rentals are below retail rates but above maintenance fees. So the commercial renter is brining more competition and potentially lower prices to the market. And thus, the only time the developers really step in is when commercial renters start to impact their own rentals or timeshare sales. If they get enough complaints about availability and enough people refuse to buy, they may then take issue. Until then, they just let things be as they are.

 

[daviator]

The primary difference compared to a scalper is that a scalper is charging more than the going retail rate for event tickets to make money. Most timeshare rentals are below retail rates but above maintenance fees. So the commercial renter is brining more competition and potentially lower prices to the market. And thus, the only time the developers really step in is when commercial renters start to impact their own rentals or timeshare sales. If they get enough complaints about availability and enough people refuse to buy, they may then take issue. Until then, they just let things be as they are.

I see the primary problem with commercial renters is that they will snatch up lots of prime inventory, a disproportionate amount.

"Normal" owners will plan their travels at different times and for different dates. Some will be on-the-ball and reserve 12 months ahead, some will try to do so a few days, weeks or months after the reservation window opened. Some will choose slow times of the year for their travel, many will compete for the most popular times of course. People will be juggling their own schedules and the availability of various family members, etc.

A commercial renter has none of those concerns as they aren't going to use the unit themselves. They will reserve the most valuable weeks, exactly when the reservation window opens, and they will secure all the prime inventory they want. They then have ten months to try to rent it out; if they don't, I suppose they cancel before the "restricted" deadline and get the opportunity to use the ownership in some other way.

It's true that every owner has the ability to try to book at there exact second the reservation window opens and hopefully secure even the most difficult-to-get dates, but "normal" owners aren't always that proactive or experienced at competing for the most popular weeks. The commercial renter IS and will probably always get what they want. I can imagine that enough commercial owners might make it nearly impossible for "normal" owners to reserve certain popular dates.

The result is that those owners (who probably aren't TUG users) who aren't quite as knowledgable as most of us here are, will be frustrated that they can never get the dates they want. They will decide that timeshares suck, they will badmouth MVC to their friends, and (perhaps most important to MVC) they probably WON'T BUY MORE. I think if MVC sees a connection between commercial users indirectly making it harder for them to make sales, they will take action.

 

[DavidnRobin]

As an Owner you are allowed to rent your VOI (timeshare) at least for WKORV/N, WKV, WPORV and WSJ, but NOT for commercial purposes. This is what their CCRs state. Otherwise, they would state that no renting is allowed (or more likely - renting not allowed for commercial or non-commercial purposes...)
Also, a commercial business is one that files taxes as such with the IRS as a Business (or supposed to) and deal with the associated tax implications.
A normal owner renting their timeshare does not file as a business, but is required to capture the gain on their individual tax filing (forgot which form) - a Tugger has posted info on this.

If MVC restricts you because they are claiming commercial renting, and a person were to fight them, I would imagine MVC would ask for Legal Discovery that includes tax documentations.

btw - whatever a salesperson tells you is not binding unless in contract (that includes CCRs). I was also told I could rent by sales more than once, but don't care because it was obvious to me that non-commercial renting is allowed by the CCRs at the time.

On the other note - if you want an instruction manual for an appliance - they are online. I've used this method more than once.

 

[EnglishmanAbroad]

On the other note - if you want an instruction manual for an appliance - they are online. I've used this method more than once.

Unfortunately, having the instruction manual doesn't make those washer/dryer combos work any better, they are terrible. At least might it drive the world back to realizing that great big yellow ball in the sky is great at drying things and is free