Vistana rep refused to add a guest name for 10/5 on SBR deeded week, sent me a form to fill out.

[dioxide45]

You might want to read the T&C of the contracts you signed when you purchased your Westin, Sheraton or MVC timeshares. I simply pulled this wording from a Westin contract:

"8.1 Personal Use; Commercial Purposes. Use of the Units and facilities associated with the Network is limited solely to the personal use of Network Members, their guests, invitees, exchangers, and lessees of Home Resort Vacation Periods, and for recreational use by corporations or other similar business entities owning VOIs. Purchase of a VOI or use of Units and facilities associated with the Network for commercial purposes including without limitation rental purposes, for contribution to or use in a different vacation ownership plan or vacation club (except as expressly permitted in the Network Documents), or for any purpose other than the personal use described above is prohibited. Violations of this Section may result in the suspension of a Network Member’s reservation, cancellation of reservations for third parties made by Network Member, and/or suspension of a Network Member’s ability to make future reservations except for reservations of Member’s Home Resort Vacation Periods."

Resale owners of voluntary weeks don't necessarily sign this contract. Is this contract related to membership in VSN? I think more important than what is in the contract is what is contained in the condo CC&R documents that govern owners within the condo plan.

 

[LeslieDet]

Resale owners of voluntary weeks don't necessarily sign this contract. Is this contract related to membership in VSN? I think more important than what is in the contract is what is contained in the condo CC&R documents that govern owners within the condo plan.

Yes, that was related to the VSN. I pulled the wording from "Vistana Signature Network Disclosure Guide For Members of the Vistana Signature Network", which was part of the documentation I agreed to when purchasing in 2016. There is similar wording in the MVC documents, I just don't have those all digitized. And, as to resale, when you purchase I'm fairly certain that there is a catch all clause that says words to the effect that you agree to the T&C.

We've also had this conversation before regarding the MVC Trust Points and the T&C in the purchase agreement for points. There are multiple paragraphs which prohibit commercial activity. This is one: "B. Residential Use and Prohibition on Commercial Use. Accommodations, Special Benefits, and Use Periods may not be used for any commercial purpose. This prohibition on commercial use includes, but is not limited to, any illegal activity or a pattern of occupancy, rental, leasing, or use by a Trust Owner that Program Manager, in its reasonable discretion, could conclude constitutes a commercial enterprise or practice. In the event a Trust Owner is determined to be reserving or using the Accommodations, Special Benefits, and Use Periods for any commercial purpose Program Manager may immediately cancel any current reservation(s) made by such Trust Owner and may impose such additional penalties or restrictions as determined by Program Manager, in its sole discretion, from time to time."

And, as you know, the sections addressing the booking priority also contain this wording: "In no event shall a Priority 1 Reservation be used for any commercial purpose (including but not limited to, the rental of an Accommodation reserved during the Priority 1 Period)."

Anyone who buys MVC Trust Points resale signs those contracts and agrees to those terms.

 

[dioxide45]

Yes, that was related to the VSN. I pulled the wording from "Vistana Signature Network Disclosure Guide For Members of the Vistana Signature Network", which was part of the documentation I agreed to when purchasing in 2016. There is similar wording in the MVC documents, I just don't have those all digitized. And, as to resale, when you purchase I'm fairly certain that there is a catch all clause that says words to the effect that you agree to the T&C.

The thing is, these weeks aren't in VSN. They are voluntary deeded resale weeks. The VSN T&C would not apply.

 

[LeslieDet]

The thing is, these weeks aren't in VSN. They are voluntary deeded resale weeks. The VSN T&C would not apply.

I get that they are not in the VSN; however, I suspect that there are basic Association T&C worded along the lines of "participation in the [name of resort] ownership plan are for personal use only" or words to that effect. We know that with the resale mandatory resorts they are part of the VSN, and would have to sign the VSN agreement to get StarOptions to use outside of the home resort.

 

[bizaro86]

I get that they are not in the VSN; however, I suspect that there are basic Association T&C worded along the lines of "participation in the [name of resort] ownership plan are for personal use only" or words to that effect. We know that with the resale mandatory resorts they are part of the VSN, and would have to sign the VSN agreement to get StarOptions to use outside of the home resort.

These resorts pre-date VSN, what the VSN documents say has absolutely nothing to do with them.

 

[Hindsite]

If the underlying purchase documents for the week don't have the commercial use clause, then you need to push back in slower time to customer advocacy to get that item removed from the guest form.

Its typical big corporate policy washing across everything, its easier for them to do that than tailor the form for the thousands of different variants of terms and condition that might be out there. Most people will go along with it, those who know they aren't covered by it will just tick the box and ignore it, but few will actually push back to get it sorted. Your call on what works for you.

Great info that the guest form can still be used so close to check-in, even if its annoyingly difficult to do, thanks.

 

[rickandcindy23]

Define "the network." Deeded floating weeks are not in any network.

 

[daviator]

Some of this language is, I think, in the recorded deed restrictions which apply to every owner of a deeded week. It doesn’t matter that a subsequent purchaser did not sign a contract with Vistana or MVC, because the deed they purchased is encumbered by a whole contract full of deed restrictions which potentially limit the way in which the property can be used.

I am as unhappy as anyone at the way that Vistana sold deeded weeks by touting their use as rentals, and MVC now seems to be attempting to limit those uses. But I do not think the argument that “I bought resale and so I never agreed to those restrictions” holds water. Resale buyers, like those who bought from the developer, bought deeded properties which are subject to a long list of restrictions on their use, and those restrictions run with the properties (weeks) and apply to every owner, past and future.

 

[DeniseM]

A couple of weeks ago, I was helping another owner add a guest name to his home resort reservation. Every time we tried to do it online, we got an error message. Finally, the owner called Owner Services and they insisted that the owner had to fill out the Marriott long form. He did, and they changed the name on the Marriott confirmation within a few days, but they still didn't change it on his Vistana confirmation, and he had to call them again. The left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing in owner services these days!

 

[rickandcindy23]

I understand that booking in a point system, using points to book something not deeded to you may have some issues, such as owning Kierland and booking Maui to rent. That could break some rules, but I don't think booking and renting your owned week is against any rule. If it is, I am breaking those rules, and so are the hundreds of owners who have listings on RW, verify/ protect and not verified and protected.

 

[dioxide45]

I understand that booking in a point system, using points to book something not deeded to you may have some issues, such as owning Kierland and booking Maui to rent. That could break some rules, but I don't think booking and renting your owned week is against any rule. If it is, I am breaking those rules, and so are the hundreds of owners who have listings on RW, verify/ protect and not verified and protected.

Have you read through the resort CC&R documents? These are the governing documents that @daviator is referring to. You should be able to find these online on Vistana.com.

 

[Hindsite]

I understand that booking in a point system, using points to book something not deeded to you may have some issues, such as owning Kierland and booking Maui to rent. That could break some rules, but I don't think booking and renting your owned week is against any rule. If it is, I am breaking those rules, and so are the hundreds of owners who have listings on RW, verify/ protect and not verified and protected.

Renting out isn't against them rules on the form.

Its a pattern of rental that is commercial use that is the issue, where this clause is in there applicable ownership Who knows what that pattern looks like, but if activity starts to cause some kind of problem they'll try to counter it, as we have seen them do already.

 

[dioxide45]

This is what the governing documents for Bella Florida Condominium (Sheraton Vistana Villages) has to say about commercial use. This is not for VSN or the exchange, but the underlying use of a deeded week. This would ultimately be up to the HOA to enforce or the HOA to have the management company enforce. So far, it doesn't seem that Vistana nor any of the resort HOAs enforce commercial use.

1. Personal Use Restriction. Each Vacation Ownership Unit shall be occupied only as vacation accommodations.
No Owner may occupy a Vacation Ownership Unit or use any facilities of the Condominium at any time other than
during the Unit Week owned or reserved in accordance with the Condominium Documents and the Club
Documents. Use of all Vacation Ownership Units and the facilities of the Condominium by Owners is limited solely
to the personal use of Owners, their guests, invitees, and lessees and for recreational uses by corporations and other
entities owning Unit Weeks. Use of Vacation Ownership Units or the facilities of the Condominium by Owners for
commercial purposes or any purposes other than the personal use described in the Declaration is expressly
prohibited. “Commercial purpose” includes a pattern of rental activity or other occupancy by an Owner that the
Association, in its reasonable discretion, could conclude constitutes a commercial enterprise or practice. This
paragraph shall not apply to Units or Unit Weeks owned by the Developer or to Commercial Units.

 

[rickandcindy23]

This is from the Sheraton Broadway Resort's CC & R's.

 

[vacationtime1]

This is what the governing documents for Bella Florida Condominium (Sheraton Vistana Villages) has to say about commercial use. This is not for VSN or the exchange, but the underlying use of a deeded week. This would ultimately be up to the HOA to enforce or the HOA to have the management company enforce. So far, it doesn't seem that Vistana nor any of the resort HOAs enforce commercial use.

1. Personal Use Restriction. Each Vacation Ownership Unit shall be occupied only as vacation accommodations.
No Owner may occupy a Vacation Ownership Unit or use any facilities of the Condominium at any time other than
during the Unit Week owned or reserved in accordance with the Condominium Documents and the Club
Documents. Use of all Vacation Ownership Units and the facilities of the Condominium by Owners is limited solely
to the personal use of Owners, their guests, invitees, and lessees and for recreational uses by corporations and other
entities owning Unit Weeks. Use of Vacation Ownership Units or the facilities of the Condominium by Owners for
commercial purposes or any purposes other than the personal use described in the Declaration is expressly
prohibited. “Commercial purpose” includes a pattern of rental activity or other occupancy by an Owner that the
Association, in its reasonable discretion, could conclude constitutes a commercial enterprise or practice. This
paragraph shall not apply to Units or Unit Weeks owned by the Developer or to Commercial Units.

Two points (see bolded language):

First, the word "lessees" is right in the CC&R's, so owners renting their units was clearly contemplated.

Second, it is the "Association" (i.e the HOA) that has the discretion to decide whether a rental pattern constitutes a commercial activity -- not the manager (i.e. Marriott). I won't speculate what due process issues may exist, but an arbitrary decision by the manager doesn't pass muster.

I see both sides of the issue, but the CC&R's don't support what Marriott is doing.

 

[dioxide45]

Two points (see bolded language):

First, the word "lessees" is right in the CC&R's, so owners renting their units was clearly contemplated.

Second, it is the "Association" (i.e the HOA) that has the discretion to decide whether a rental pattern constitutes a commercial activity -- not the manager (i.e. Marriott). I won't speculate what due process issues may exist, but an arbitrary decision by the manager doesn't pass muster.

You must not have actually read my post. I said just that. It is up to the association.

I see both sides of the issue, but the CC&R's don't support what Marriott is doing.

Marriott is simply asking the owner to acknowledge that it is not commercial activity. The manager is hired by the HOA to both manage day to day operations and enforce the rules, regulations and bylaws. I don't see where the manager asking the owner to acknowledge non-commercial activity is not supported.

This item literally has the same working about commercial activity as the resort CC&Rs. They use the term "may result in cancellation". Which could happen if the association instructed the manager to enforce the specified rule.

 

[LeslieDet]

I understand that booking in a point system, using points to book something not deeded to you may have some issues, such as owning Kierland and booking Maui to rent. That could break some rules, but I don't think booking and renting your owned week is against any rule. If it is, I am breaking those rules, and so are the hundreds of owners who have listings on RW, verify/ protect and not verified and protected.

I'm not sure why you are not understanding the difference between commercial activity and renting out your owned week from time to time. No one has ever said that non-commercial rentals of your owned week is against the rules. But as I indicated earlier, if you are in the business of owning timeshare weeks for the purpose of renting them regularly as part of your business operations, then that is prohibited. By signing that form or acknowledging the statements on that form, you are certifying to the management that you are not engaging in commercial rentals.

 

[LeslieDet]

Two points (see bolded language):

First, the word "lessees" is right in the CC&R's, so owners renting their units was clearly contemplated.

Second, it is the "Association" (i.e the HOA) that has the discretion to decide whether a rental pattern constitutes a commercial activity -- not the manager (i.e. Marriott). I won't speculate what due process issues may exist, but an arbitrary decision by the manager doesn't pass muster.

I see both sides of the issue, but the CC&R's don't support what Marriott is doing.

The HOA manager is MVW. So, of course MVW is in charge of ensuring the operations of the HOA are in compliance with the CC&Rs.

 

[DavidnRobin]

Within the last month, I have rented three Vistana VOIs that were all more than 60 days out (WKV 1BD, WKORV OFD studio, and WKORV OFD 1BD ) and changed the name on Vistana with no issue. Same as it ever was.

I did have an issue with RedWeek, because they were asking to change the name on the BonVoy site can no longer be done without filling out form with MVC. I informed RedWeek that this was not required for these reservations. Turns out that the name change on the Vistana site was reflected on the BonVoy site after a couple of days - so no need to fill out form. This happened with all three of my reservations.

 

[SueDonJ]

This is what the governing documents for Bella Florida Condominium (Sheraton Vistana Villages) has to say about commercial use. This is not for VSN or the exchange, but the underlying use of a deeded week. This would ultimately be up to the HOA to enforce or the HOA to have the management company enforce. So far, it doesn't seem that Vistana nor any of the resort HOAs enforce commercial use.

1. Personal Use Restriction. Each Vacation Ownership Unit shall be occupied only as vacation accommodations.
No Owner may occupy a Vacation Ownership Unit or use any facilities of the Condominium at any time other than
during the Unit Week owned or reserved in accordance with the Condominium Documents and the Club
Documents. Use of all Vacation Ownership Units and the facilities of the Condominium by Owners is limited solely
to the personal use of Owners, their guests, invitees, and lessees and for recreational uses by corporations and other
entities owning Unit Weeks. Use of Vacation Ownership Units or the facilities of the Condominium by Owners for
commercial purposes or any purposes other than the personal use described in the Declaration is expressly
prohibited. “Commercial purpose” includes a pattern of rental activity or other occupancy by an Owner that the
Association, in its reasonable discretion, could conclude constitutes a commercial enterprise or practice. This
paragraph shall not apply to Units or Unit Weeks owned by the Developer or to Commercial Units.

View attachment 100378

It's interesting that the paragraph quoted for SVV differs from the copied one below it - the second-to-last sentence for SVV reads, "... that the Association, in its reasonable discretion, ..." but the one Cindy quoted reads: "... that the Association or the Declarant, in their reasonable discretion ..."

(The "Declarant" is of course the developer/manager, which named entity follows with successive actions like Marriott taking over Starwood, and others have already noted that the governing docs also make clear that original and successive owners are subject to the same CCR's including as amended unless otherwise stated, regardless of how an interval might be passed.)

Like I said, it's an interesting difference, but I wouldn't waste any time or money trying to fight Marriott that SVV owners aren't subject to the same commercial activity restrictions as any other owners. If it's any consolation, such restrictions have been in the docs for Marriott-timeshares - Weeks and Points - forever and there's never been a post on TUG that they elected to enforce them. (And there's one situation at one resort in particular that most of us wish Marriott would!!) Whatever the reasons for this guest/form process, it's not happened since we started using this either.

 

[daviator]

From my observations here, I think there are definitely owners, including some folks who regularly participate on TUG, whose pattern of rental activity could easily be considered commercial use. It's a subjective determination, but there are at least a handful of folks here that I suspect to be clearly on the "wrong" side of that line.

The question is whether MVC is actually trying to crack down on or seriously dissuade these uses, or whether they are just trying to check a box (literally, in some cases) so that they can claim to be upholding the requirements in the CC&Rs.

Asking people to self-certify ("I promise this isn't a commercial use") is probably a pretty ineffective enforcement technique, but it would let MVC say that they do not allow commercial uses (because if anyone admits to them, then they are disallowed.) Nobody admits to them, so MVC, with blinders on, says "it's not happening."

It still isn't clear to me whether they actually have a business reason to discourage people like the quasi-commercial owners here on TUG from continuing to do their thing. I suppose if there's enough people doing it, then it impacts availability (especially at peak times) for the "normal" owners which hurts both sales to and retention of owners. If that problem is severe enough, it might motivate them to do something about it.

I'm intentionally not naming names here, because it doesn't matter and I'm not trying to shame or label anyone. But if you've ever thought of your rental activity as being a business, even MAYBE a commercial use, then it probably is... or could be seen that way by someone like MVC.

The other factor that would come into play if they actually started cracking down and cancelling reservations of "commercial" users, is that certainly Vistana/Starwood sales, and probably MVC too, has actively touted the ability to rent out what you own to encourage people to buy. So they may have a concern about their ability to start actively restricting a use which they themselves encouraged people to spend their money to enable. I'm a very occasional renter of my ownerships – maybe 10% of the time – but that ability was promoted by Sales and at least one of my purchases was kind of based on/justified by that possibility. As it turned out, I like using that property more than I like renting it, so I haven't rented it much. But I'd be pretty unhappy if my ability to rent it when I want to was curtailed.

 

[LeslieDet]

The other factor that would come into play if they actually started cracking down and cancelling reservations of "commercial" users

Just FYI - I am aware of one owner who was renting out her ownership as a commercial activity using VRBO, and all reservations were cancelled and she was notified that she was in violation of the T&C. She owned a large number of weeks, not points. I do not know the percentage of resale vs bought from developer.

 

[DavidnRobin]

Commercial usage is actually what it is - renting TS weeks or points as a business, and thus legally required by the IRS to file as a business.
Renting one's VOIs because circumstances change is not a commercial activity.
According to CCRs that I have (WKORV, WPORV and WKV) - renting for non-commercial (business) usage is allowed. Which I actually use to cover costs because sometimes Life gets in the way.
If they want me to confirm that the rental is not for commercial usage - I have zero issue with that.

It is true that some people have been running a commercial business as evident here on TUG and FB. Also, Owners using StarOptions to reserve outside of their HomeResort and then renting - also not allowed and certainly I am in favor of eliminating as it prevents Owners from reserving time for their personal usage.

 

[vacationtime1]

The HOA manager is MVW. So, of course MVW is in charge of ensuring the operations of the HOA are in compliance with the CC&Rs.

True, but MVW is merely the agent of the HOA. It is the HOA -- not MVW -- that has the discretion to decide whether something is a commercial activity.

I realize that MVW effectively controls the various HOA boards, but unless and until the HOA makes this determination, MVW is on shaky ground enforcing its corporate opinion rather than the HOA's determination.

 

[LeslieDet]

True, but MVW is merely the agent of the HOA. It is the HOA -- not MVW -- that has the discretion to decide whether something is a commercial activity.

I realize that MVW effectively controls the various HOA boards, but unless and until the HOA makes this determination, MVW is on shaky ground enforcing its corporate opinion rather than the HOA's determination.

You must not be part of any HOAs. The BOD acts through its manager. The BOD does not direct the day to day decisions. The manager doesn't go to the BOD for case by case questions. The manager is tasked with managing the property and operations in accordance with the CC&Rs. This has absolutely nothing to do with MVW "effectively controlling" any of the HOAs. This has to do with how HOAs operate. The BOD does not oversee the day to day tasks. This isn't a "corporate opinion".