Vacation Club Points Survey

[TheTimeTraveler]

Marriott will never disclose the results of their survey, but you can bet that they are monitoring all these threads on TUG.

 

[littlestar]

Marriott maintenance fees are considered higher than most well run independent resorts. Why would I want to own say Manor Club or Horizons Branson and pay Marriott fees if my resort will only get me maybe five days of vacation time at another Marriott location? Wouldn't that discourage ownership at those resorts?

What would happen to silver/bronze season owners at Hilton Head? Aren't their fees pretty much the same as platinum owners? Would the platinum owners end up having to pay more maintenance fees in the long haul if no one wants to bother owning silver or bronze season anymore? If you can't get any value out of it, why pay Marriott fees?

 

[bookworm]

What would happen to silver/bronze season owners at Hilton Head? Aren't their fees pretty much the same as platinum owners? Would the platinum owners end up having to pay more maintenance fees in the long haul if no one wants to bother owning silver or bronze season anymore? If you can't get any value out of it, why pay Marriott fees?

Wyndham resales point to exactly what happens. Hardly anyone will touch the off season weeks that have converted into points because of the huge maintenance fees per point (of course, hopefully Marriott will retain its value better than Wyndham has). This affects the number of delinquent owners who no longer find a value in paying their fees. The goal in a points are points world has less to do with what resort you own (unless you are determined to get a particular resort so you need advanced priority) and more to do with keeping your fees low. What may be highly valued now may not seem valuable in points and vice versa.

I have to wonder how many will actually be willing to make the switch, especially if there is a cost involved. Even now Wyndham has lots of fixed weeks that were never converted. From what I can tell in these forums, there are plenty of Marriott owners who love going to their particular resorts for a week every year and may not prefer points.

 

[ocdb8r]

Interesting note. I just received an e-mail with a link to a survey regarding "proposed enhancements." I wen through the initial questions which were mostly geared at my experience with timeshares (how many presentations...etc.) as well as which companies I own with. Then the survey ended. Never a single question about any Marriott enhancements.

I have a feeling they may have reached their "cap" on experienced timeshare owners responses. I JUST closed on a Marriott resale this summer and I suspect they may have targeted me thinking I would add a "non-tug" type perspective...once I confirmed I owned 3 timeshares in 3 different systems (WM, SVN, Marriott), they had no interest in my opinion.

 

[Pit]

My observations with the proposed point system...

1. You lose the ability to trade (one-for-one) into high demand resorts and newer resorts, as the point values required will be set high and increase over time for new resorts. New resorts, I guess, would be sold into the point system.

2. Availability will be reduced for all owners, because this will split the deposit inventory between weeks owners and points owners.

3. All weeks in the point system will be devalued, if membership in the point program (or the right to join) does not transfer with a resale.

4. Not clear to me how a points owner would trade outside of Marriott. I'm assuming this remains with II, but would you get a week deposit or a set of points (and how many points are required for an II xchg?).

Hard to evaluate without the details.

 

[aka Julie]

I'm wondering if this is really a survey or if this is just Marriott's way of breaking the news to owners that the change is on the horizon. They can cite the "survey' when responding to unhappy owners - "Sorry Mr./Mrs Grumpy, but owners overwhelmingly voted in favor of the new system."

Charles "Not Always Paranoid" Marriott Owner.

I was thinking the exact same thing. We'll never know the results, but Marriott will say this is what the owners want.

 

[LAX Mom]

I can't imagine anyone would purchase a low season at Marriott resorts in the future. Why would you buy a silver/bronze or even gold week and pay the same MF as the platinum owners?

With the current II system people were willing to pay the MF for a silver Marriott because they had a chance at an upgrade. I was just looking at II and there are numerous upgrades available with my SW studio and 1 bedroom units. I can get larger units well into the spring at many desirable locations. Once Marriott controls the points system, my SW silver won't trade well at all.

Those who own the top-tier resorts will be the winners in a points based system. The rest of us will get less vacation days for our MF.

The other problem with this points transition is availablity with Marriott. If a small number of people switch to points, Marriott won't have many units available for owners to use. You might have the points for Hawaii or Aruba, but no units are available.

Thanks Marriott, but I'll stick with II.

 

[mprocopi]

I can't imagine anyone would purchase a low season at Marriott resorts in the future. Why would you buy a silver/bronze or even gold week and pay the same MF as the platinum owners?

With the current II system people were willing to pay the MF for a silver Marriott because they had a chance at an upgrade. I was just looking at II and there are numerous upgrades available with my SW studio and 1 bedroom units. I can get larger units well into the spring at many desirable locations. Once Marriott controls the points system, my SW silver won't trade well at all.

I was noodling over this same question and I re-read the survey. I think their answer to this in the points system is the "Preferred Resort Priority".

Preferred Resort Priority - Instead of a Home Resort Guarantee, what if you had priority access to a group of similar resorts (such as beach locations, golf resorts etc) for a period of time? For example, if you could specify that for the next three years you would have priority access to any property within the Marriott Vacation Club system that has direct beach access. Similarly, what if you could pick the three specific resorts within the Marriott Vacation Club system you want to stay at for the next three years and have a priority access to those resorts?

Now I think it boils down to how much would they charge for this upgrade.

 

[davidvel]

My concern is that I feel forced to join just to keep the ownership rights I already own. If I don't go along with the "enhanced" points program, my ownership will lose its inherent value; i.e., I always reserve two weeks concurrently at my home resort during a holiday week for an extended family trip. If most Platinum owners sign-up and have Home Resort Priority, my chances of reserving those two prime Platinum weeks may diminish significantly.

As noted in my earlier post (http://tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=621173&postcount=67) this can't happen under any new points system, unless Marriott rigs the system to violate your rights to reserve your week like everyone else. If Marriott gives priority to those who pay them money and join their new system it would be in violation of your deeded rights, and an unfair business practice. Now don't get me wrong, I wouldn't put it past them, but doing so would have nothing to do with a new system. (They could illegally rig the system now if they want to get better weeks for those who trade for points, etc. and then rent out for more $$$.)

 

[davidvel]

Another thought as to whether this system is good, and the issue of people paying twice to join the new Marriott system and II.

IMO a lot of "value" for Marriott trades with II is derived by the Marriott name and quality of its resorts. In other words, many people outside of Marriott create demand for the "lesser" (non-platinum) Marriott weeks. This allows many people to trade lock-offs and 1BR Marriott properties for 2BR units at other decent (albeit non-Marriott resorts). Or trade a garden variety week for a non-Marriott Hawaii or ski-area week in prime time, which could never be done inside Marriott. Not so with a Marriott only points system, but the opposite.

Just keep in mind that the new system will just be another system, like(or unlike) all the rest out there that can be used for trading your week.

 

[LAX Mom]

I was noodling over this same question and I re-read the survey. I think their answer to this in the points system is the "Preferred Resort Priority".



Now I think it boils down to how much would they charge for this upgrade.

Yes but your silver/bronze week would still have a low amount of points. You might have "Preferred Resort Priority" for Hawaii (50,000 points) but your silver week is only worth 10,000 points. What good will it do you to have priority if you don't have enough points to make the trade?

 

[SueDonJ]

Hmmmmm. We weren't part of the survey. This is a motherload of info, and one more reason to be so thankful that TUG is a resource. I'm printing this out so that Don and I can read it in much more detail than just my browsing through here today.

The only points system I know anything about is DVC - does it help me to compare what you're all saying to that, or should I be looking at it in a whole different light?

Love, love, love the pinata comedy!
Susan

 

[thinze3]

Yes but your silver/bronze week would still have a low amount of points. You might have "Preferred Resort Priority" for Hawaii (50,000 points) but your silver week is only worth 10,000 points. What good will it do you to have priority if you don't have enough points to make the trade?

It will get worked out.
A 2BR bronze at your resort may equal a 1BR during high season at your resort or a studio during mid season at a higher resort. They will make the math work.


Terry

 

[mprocopi]

Yes but your silver/bronze week would still have a low amount of points. You might have "Preferred Resort Priority" for Hawaii (50,000 points) but your silver week is only worth 10,000 points. What good will it do you to have priority if you don't have enough points to make the trade?

I see what you mean. Yeah, I misunderstood what was meant by resort priority there.

 

[Ggatorgirl]

DVC

We have been DVC owners for over 15 years and love the flexibility and simplicity of the system. It has always been a points system, so there has never been any conversion-from-a-weeks system issues. There are 3 or 4 resorts currently for 'new' sales, a robust non-DVC resale market and a more limited resale market by Disney.

Yes, the cost of buying a 'point' has gone up over time and varies, in both the direct and resale markets, based on the resort you are buying into. Resevations into your 'home' resort are allowed at 12 months, into other DVC resorts at 7 months. You can bank and borrow one year's worth of points, so you can acculmulate up to 3 years for a reservation.

The number of points needed for a resevation also varies by resort and 'season' or time of year. There are 5 or 6 seasons, from very low (January) to peak (summer) to premimum (Spring break and Xmas).

A 7 night stay peak season 1 bdrm runs from 218 at Old Key West, the oldest resort to 313 at Animal Kingdom Lodge, the newest available one.

MFs are calculated for each resort and are assessed on a per point basis.

Exchanges into II are done primarily in one week increments, based on number of bedrooms and cost roughly what a 7 night stay at DVC would cost.

The beauty of DVC is tha it is extremely easy to determine what each stay would cost and it gives significant preference at the owner's home resort. "Buy where you want to stay" certainly applies to DVC.

The major problem I see with MVCI adopting a point system is that people bought into the system for various reasons...some do want to stay primarily at their home resort and don't want to trade for MRPs or into II. Others plan never to stay at their home resort and live for the art of the deal in getting the best trades and 'upgrades' into other resorts.

There is no way Marriott is going to make even 50% of its owners happy with any changes. Personally, I bought MVCI because I want to stay at Canyon Villas in the Spring...but have been able to book it only once in 5 years. Maybe if there were a points system, I would have a better chance of getting in there when I want because others would not be booking the prime weeks only so they could trade them into II.

For those Flexchangers who have silver or bronze ownership weeks at the lesser resorts, moving to a points system would reduce their trading power. But for those of us who bought the Platinum weeks at the newer resorts because we want to stay there, the points might work to our advantage...providing it is done at minimal cost.

 

[littlestar]

Trading DVC points on a regular basis through II is not something I would want to do. You don't get bonus weeks, you can't do full week exchanges yourself online (you have to call Member Services), and you can't upsize a studio into a 1 or 2 bedroom in flexchange - really pretty sad when you consider what DVC maintenance fees run. I think it's because Disney wants complete control. Right now I love the way Marriott (any Marriott) trades in II. I hope Marriott is not going the DVC route - that would be backwards.

 

[ocdb8r]

IMO a lot of "value" for Marriott trades with II is derived by the Marriott name and quality of its resorts. In other words, many people outside of Marriott create demand for the "lesser" (non-platinum) Marriott weeks. This allows many people to trade lock-offs and 1BR Marriott properties for 2BR units at other decent (albeit non-Marriott resorts). Or trade a garden variety week for a non-Marriott Hawaii or ski-area week in prime time, which could never be done inside Marriott. Not so with a Marriott only points system, but the opposite.

I think this is an INCREDIBLY important and often lost point. Right now the mixing in of non-Marriott resorts acts as a pressure release valve on the trading system. Some owners are willing to buy Gold and Silver weeks and pay the same maint. as Platinum weeks b/c they have a decent opportunity to trade into better seasons. Their lower value weeks are then traded into by non-Marriott owners, willing to take lower demand seasons to get into the higher quality Marriott name. Leftovers are sold by II as getaway weeks. At the end of the day everyone gains.

A Marriott managed system will likely make trading more EQUAL (meaning you can trade for like unit in a like season OR smaller unit in a better season OR bigger unit in a worse season) BUT that doesn't address the inequality in maint. fees (Silver pays the same as Platinum plus). Result - havoc on Silver/Bronze weeks. Now, theoretically the initial purchase price should address this inequality. The problem is that as resorts get older and there is downward pressure on overall prices, the value of Bronze/Silver weeks quickly reaches $0 b/c they aren't even worth the yearly maint. fee.

 

[m61376]

Besides what is posted above about issues with Silver and Bronze week, especially in light of ever-rising MF's, what worries me most is not what the valuations are at the onset, but what those values will be relative to future valuations. I agree that the best positioned people here are those who own premium properties, but even those owners are not secure. We've seen it in other points based systems and we've seen it in the rewards program (I know, a different entity, but the same issues exist). Five years down the road even a similarly situated but new resort will cost more to build- and will cost more to buy. Purchasers will expect, and likely receive, more points for their purchase and, hence, the points required for trading in will be greater. Had this scenario been adopted 5 years ago, for example, an owner at Aruba Ocean Club might only be able to trade their week for 5 days at the Surf Club, even though they are equivalent properties; similarly, owners at Ocean Pointe wouldn't be able to get a week at Ocean Palms...etc. Fast forward a few years and even owners of Hawaii resorts, Plat. ski weeks, Plat. Aruba weeks, etc.- all of whom will likely be awarded the highest number of points today- will likely find themselves short of the requisite points to book a week's stay elsewhere.

If the points awarded (and thus the points necessary to book) remain stagnant for current owners but escalate for new properties, over time owners at prime properties/season may not have enough points to trade for a newly built resort in Orlando, for example. As seen with other point systems, once point values are assigned they don't keep pace with inflation, but newer resorts, as they come on the market, reflect inflationary pricing. I think that's a really big issue- we bought with the promise of a week's vacation where we bought and the ability to trade for a week elsewhere int he Marriott system, subject to availability. I don't want to be told that I only qualify for 4 or 5 days, or a studio or 1 BR for my 2 BR, and I certainly don't want to be told that now that my resort is 10 years old, and I've paid $1000+ in special assessments to renovate it and make it beautiful, that it is no longer worth as much as a neighboring property because it was less expensive at original purchase (and thus assigned a lower point value).

 

[EZ-ED]

FWIW I have not yet received the survey but will probably chuck it when it does come in. I would guess that the points program is already set in place and the survey is just a way to start getting the word out on a the new program and that no real user survey input is going to be looked at seriously.

Marriott knows how their existing rewards points operate and will be setting their resort season/rooms points placement based on that knowledge. It should not be very long before the devaluations in point value start as knowledgeable users figure out the loop holes and take advantage of those who join and don't figure out how to work the system. For me... well I'll pass on any points opportunity just as I now do when I'm offered a boatload of points to buy at the sales presentation inflated prices. I don't want or need the weekend usuage or the 3 day or even single day usage. I want a vacation and for me that's usually 7 days.

 

[Ggatorgirl]

MFs

One way to deal with MFs in a points system is to reallocate the annual fees based on the number of points...the more points you have the more you pay. Since the number of points will be assigned based on your ownership season and number of bedrooms, the silver and bronze weeks will be paying less fees than the Plat and Gold owners.

 

[LAX Mom]

One way to deal with MFs in a points system is to reallocate the annual fees based on the number of points...the more points you have the more you pay. Since the number of points will be assigned based on your ownership season and number of bedrooms, the silver and bronze weeks will be paying less fees than the Plat and Gold owners.

That would give the sales staff a good way to sell the silver/bronze units at the new properties. It would be an entry level program, "try this with a small amount of points and see if you like it". Otherwise, I don't see how they will ever sell the silver/bronze or even gold weeks in the future.

I'm not familiar with too many of the point systems, but I know Worldmark sets the MF based on the number of points owned. It seems like the only fair way but could get very complicated. A platinum in Hawaii will be worth more than a platinum in Orlando, so I'm sure Hawaii would be worth more points. But how would they equalize MF's based on points throughout the system?

I think Marriott could have a great point system if they started with points in the begining. But now they've been selling weeks for 20+ years it will be very difficult to switch to points and try to keep Marriott owners happy.

 

[bookworm]

One way to deal with MFs in a points system is to reallocate the annual fees based on the number of points...the more points you have the more you pay. Since the number of points will be assigned based on your ownership season and number of bedrooms, the silver and bronze weeks will be paying less fees than the Plat and Gold owners.

A good idea for future resorts (what Wyndham has done - new resorts pay fees by number of points) but no way you can do that in existing resorts. I can just imagine the platinum owner who always uses the same summer week at Hilton Head and isn't interested in points being told the MF will go up by 50% to cover the costs of the bronze and silver weeks that will pay less. You can't change what's already been started.

 

[JimIg23]

I wonder if Marriott would drop the II Marriott only window if they convert to points to try to make the new system more appealing.

 

[Big Matt]

Great post. That would certainly get some people's attention.

I talked to an II advisor two days ago and when I talked about the Marriott points program, he very quickly changed the conversation back to II.

They must be at wits end. Losing Marriott would be a huge blow.

 

[BocaBum99]

I am in no way, shape or form worried about this Marriott points program. I know how points programs work in gory detail. I know what it takes to be successful. And, I understand the constraints that the developers have on creating the point system. Moreover, I understand the spin they will use to scare people into buying.

The bottom line is that the existing resorts will remain essentially how they are today. I doubt II will eliminate the 3-day preference period. Why should they? They will lose business from Marriott. But, they will want to keep all the existing customers who will retain the option for trading directly with II.

I would be extraordinarily surprised if Marriott has a 25% take rate after 5 years for existing resorts. There will be a new program and when you go to an owner update, it will be all about points. So, just wait until reale points packages become available and get the best of both worlds based on your own needs and the price points.

To me, more options are better. All I need to do is tweak my timeshare portfolio to capitalize on the rules that Marriott implements. And, there will be some juicy loopholes. Be optimistic. I am.