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Vacation Club Points Survey

smithde

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Adverse selection in dual system?

I'm not familiar with programs other than Marriott's. Is anyone else running a dual system with weeks and points options? I'm concerned there will be adverse selection. People who want to trade out of high end/value weeks will opt for points (to get more value for their unit), while lower end/value weeks will opt for the existing system (hoping to trade up). Net result, lower value trades available through the existing system ultimately forcing people to the points system. But that's probably the intent, right?
 

littlestar

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I feel like a piñata. Everyone wants to keep whacking me as hard as possible until all the money falls out of my pockets.

If it's a government entity, they want to raise my taxes.

If it's a business entity that I deal with, they want find ways to add new fees to get more money out of me. And usually, right along with those new shiny fees, along come "program enhancements" that really mean a reduced level of benefit to me.

It's not fun being a piñata.

Wonderfully said. That's the way I feel, too. Thanks for the laugh. :D
 

TheTimeTraveler

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You know what you have now, and how it currently works.

The change to the new system will take some getting used to and it will be nice to get the grinches out in the open and resolved (I'm sure something adverse will pop up).

I'll stick with the old as long as Marriott plans to charge a fee to experience the new.
 

ciscogizmo1

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This is often stated by opponents of points systems but its not true. Unless the resort is allowed to deteriorate it will maintain its value. And again the value would also drop in weeks if that happened - you wouldn't be able to get the same high quality or newer resorts with a lower quality or older week due to trade value either. Again points simply openly quantify what you own and give you far more options than weeks to "adjust" - and it doesn't have to involve buying more points (although to hear the sales people talk it would). We purchased our points in the Wyndham system over 12 years ago. The points value has never changed and those points have been able to reserve every resort - new, old or in between, we've ever wanted as a point is a point. If you have enough you get what you want. If you don't rent, save, borrow - you don't have to buy more. Until you use it it's hard to imagine how easy and clear cut points systems are.

Yes newer resorts may cost more points than an older one just like it costs more to buy. That doesn't mean your older resort is worth "less". It means you have to plan a little more to allow for those higher point requirements that year. Its not hard.

Just curious you talk about how great a point system is and I agree I like the point system I am part of. However, you don't (unless I missed it) say whether you'd pay $2000 to join that point system at a timeshare that you already own?

I didn't have to pay extra to join the point system that I'm part of. I think, paying extra to be part of this point system won't benefit me. I didn't get the survey (I hope, I do as I don't want to pay more for a timeshare I already own). Can you imagine paying $2000 more for a timeshare that is 10 years old to have the points be worthless?
 

JimIg23

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What if only 20% of the owners go into the new system. Wouldn't that severely limit what you can trade into with points? I wonder if you even could lose the ability to get a good week at your home resort during your season.

Also, would Marriott take all the premier week for the system. Lets say in NCV, most of July/August, then the rest of the platinum goes to the non-point people?
 

thinze3

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If Marriott implements this program, and you a Marriott timeshare that you use or trade regularly, you will join. Might not be the first year, but you will join. IMO


Terry
 

timeos2

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Yes, a reasonable fee to join is worth it

Just curious you talk about how great a point system is and I agree I like the point system I am part of. However, you don't (unless I missed it) say whether you'd pay $2000 to join that point system at a timeshare that you already own?

I didn't have to pay extra to join the point system that I'm part of. I think, paying extra to be part of this point system won't benefit me. I didn't get the survey (I hope, I do as I don't want to pay more for a timeshare I already own). Can you imagine paying $2000 more for a timeshare that is 10 years old to have the points be worthless?

Our Wyndham's (Fairfield then) came with points. We did pay - $1100 - to join the Sunterra (now Diamond) system in 1998 - 6 years after we purchased the original. That seemed like a lot then but 10 years later, compared to the annual fees and the costs if we were paying for RCI/II memberships (paid by our points systems) it was a bargain. Adjusted for inflation $2000 seems reasonable for all the additional features you get with points. We also paid $1000 in 2004 to get into RCI Points - again because using points is SO much easier than trying to get fair value out of week for week exchanges. Most of our "trades" now aren't - we just use different resorts within the various points systems.

One thing I would advise against (and it wasn't mentioned in the questionnaire) is any group that wants your deed to join. The new Diamond (former Sunterra) club demands that you give up your deed and pay to join. NEVER a good idea IMO. Keep your deeded rights and voting rights. If they demand it walk.
 
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californiagirl

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One of the benefits of Disney Vacation Club is that the points do not depreciate. At a given resort if they increase the point cost for one type of unit (either for size or season or view), then they must decrease the points for another type of unit (for either size, season or view) at that same resort. There is a set number of points they can move around. I'm not sure I am explaining this well.:eek:

All I know is that I would not be happy if my villa's points were devalued like the Marriott Rewards Point system!!

I think I would like the flexibility of shorter stays and checking in on any day of the week.

FWIW, I did not receive the survey and we own 3 developer weeks.
 

Dave M

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If you are an owner and haven't received an invitation to participate in the survey, it might yet happen. Mine showed up in my inbox at 9:08 p.m EST this evening.
 

wbrown

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Marriott has lost a lot of credibility with me with the way they introduced the recent devaluation of points as an enhancement of the program.

Frankly I don't trust what they say at face value and would have to see the fine print of any proposal from them.

Having said that, I am completely happy with the way it is now with my weeks of ownership and exchanging through II and I see no need to change anything just to pad Marriotts bottom line at our expense.
 

dioxide45

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One of the benefits of Disney Vacation Club is that the points do not depreciate. At a given resort if they increase the point cost for one type of unit (either for size or season or view), then they must decrease the points for another type of unit (for either size, season or view) at that same resort. There is a set number of points they can move around. I'm not sure I am explaining this well.:eek:

All I know is that I would not be happy if my villa's points were devalued like the Marriott Rewards Point system!!

I think I would like the flexibility of shorter stays and checking in on any day of the week.

FWIW, I did not receive the survey and we own 3 developer weeks.

Ahhhh but they do. If you want to reserve in to BLT the points you have for a 2BR at an older resort may not get you in to a 2BR at the same time for the same amount of time at BLT.
 

MOXJO7282

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What if only 20% of the owners go into the new system. Wouldn't that severely limit what you can trade into with points? I wonder if you even could lose the ability to get a good week at your home resort during your season.

Also, would Marriott take all the premier week for the system. Lets say in NCV, most of July/August, then the rest of the platinum goes to the non-point people?

This is what concerns me. I've purchased multiple weeks to make sure that I get the weeks I want. I'm not sure how its going to effect prime float weeks. I have a bad feeling as suggested above that some will be stolen for the points program lessening multi and single week owners the opportunity to get prime float weeks. This better not be the case.

To me this is an obvious attempt to increase revenue. Unless everyone agrees it shouldn't be implemented. Why should it benefit some and not all?


Regards.
Joe
 

timeos2

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This is what concerns me. I've purchased multiple weeks to make sure that I get the weeks I want. I'm not sure how its going to effect prime float weeks. I have a bad feeling as suggested above that some will be stolen for the points program lessening multi and single week owners the opportunity to get prime float weeks. This better not be the case.

To me this is an obvious attempt to increase revenue. Unless everyone agrees it shouldn't be implemented. Why should it benefit some and not all?


Regards.
Joe

It's just another exchange option. The only weeks that can be committed are whatever week the owner controls. If its a prime week (worth the most points so most likely to go over first) its theirs to do with as they please - give to points or II or use it - you have no rights to it. If the owner chooses to put it in a pool - weeks or points - then you can use that system to reserve it. Bt no one is getting a new or unfair benefit. In fact to get those points the prime owner (or any other owner) will pay for the option. Just like RCI Points, Sunterra, etc.
 

LAX Mom

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I just completed the survey (apparently I missed it yesterday and they sent another link). It seems that the point system would benefit those who purchased expensive (Hawaii) weeks from Marriott. The rest of us would have to bank our points to get an exchange into Hawaii.

I prefer the current system with II and make most of my exchanges during Flexchange. But there are many platinum Marriott weeks that won't be as valuable as Hawaii. With II you still had a chance of an exchange with your Manor Club platinum or Hilton Head gold. There have been many reports on TUG of Marriott owners getting some great exchanges with II, and not just during Flexchange. With a point system that option for an upgrade won't exist, at least without using (or purchasing) more points. I'd rather stick with the current system and II.

I also don't care about the short stay option. It sounds great, but I'm sure would be subject to availability. If I'm staying for a weekend or just a few nights, I'd rather just pay cash and rent a room at a hotel. I like timeshares (extra bedrooms, kitchen & washer/dryer) for a week long stay.
 

m61376

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The proposed system, as outlined, seemingly attempts to level the fairness of all trades, so to speak, with Marriott determining the relative value. I think a large part of the problem here is that purchases have been made with the understanding that exchanges could be made by giving up one week for another, with the ability to "trade up" being determined by the free market (supply and demand) rather than an externally imposed valuation.

Marriott clearly intends to differentiate between resorts, seasons and even view. Buying a Platinum week one place will no longer give you at least the possibility of trading for a Platinum week elsewhere and owners of lesser weeks will certainly be downgraded in either length of stay or unit size, or both. While the current system never guaranteed trades, the option of "trading up," either in size or season or location was always at least a potential option (again, dependent on market conditions); under the proposed system even if such upgrades were, in fact, available, they would lie fallow.

Marriott seems to be clearly saying that even Platinum weeks vary in value between resorts. While this has been in effect previously, reflected in trade value, it was the fluctuating marketplace (again, the demand at any given time for any given property) that helped determine valuation, and not artificially determined by Marriott. What is particularly worrisome to me, especially in light of the recent devaluation of reward points, is what happens 5 or 10 years down the road. Any new resort will cost Marriott more and will likely sell for more money. We bought with the understanding/promise that we would be able to exchange into new resorts as they become available. In an effort to sell new properties, will Marriott assign more points to new developments in the future, so that even a top Platinum week now may only have enough value to trade for 4 or 5 days at newer resorts?

So, while on one hand there is some sense in assigning different values to weeks at different resorts (after all, purchase prices differed), I personally think that current owners will suffer and, as time goes on, will find their property values dwindle (much like the way Marriott has devalued the benefit of trading for reward points). A basic attraction of the Marriott system heretofore has been the concept of a week for a week, and letting market demand determine the outcome of trade requests. Personally, I think Marriott assigning valuation will be bad for owners.

I know people have mentioned that Hyatt and Hilton have done this with some success. However, keep in mind the number of properties. I think given Marriott's vastly greater size the logistics of this will potentially be a nightmare and I also think that many owners will get shafted.

I think anyone who owns less than a premium property (as determined by Marriott) will land up getting short-shifted under this plan. As Marriott tries to equalize trades, a lot of units will sit empty that would otherwise have had happy owners trading into, either under Flexchange or off-season vacationers, who managed to trade up. Let's face it- while trading up was never guaranteed, as pointed out, the ability to do so on occasion is due to the fact that someone with higher trade power, for whatever reason at any given time, didn't make the request. The marketplace changes and demand varies from day to day. Marriott would be artificially setting value and not allowing fluctuations in demand determine value.

And, while varying days of arrival and lengths of stay would be theoretically nice, I am concerned about its implementation on a practical basis. Would it make reservations during prime-time even more difficult? Narrowing reservation days and having reservations of uniform lengths streamlines the process. I'm not sure that increased flexibility is worth risking making reservations more difficult to obtain. Something at least to consider.
 

skidoc

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I received the survey even though I'm not a Marriott owner; I have been to a couple of sales presentations over the past couple of years. We decided to buy DVC over Marriott because of the flexibility of the points system and the fact that we were able to dip our toes into timesharing through the purchase of a relatively small number of points (equivalent to an EOY Marriott purchase).

The survey felt like they were describing many aspects of the Disney system. I would imagine that we would have gone with Marriott over Disney if the points system was available at that time; mostly because of the superior nature of the Marriott resorts and the large number of destinations.

I can't imagine how they will transition current owners to the new system. We have been looking around for an EOY Marriott property (resale, of course) to complement our DVC; my gut feeling is telling me to hold off for a while to see how this plays out.....
 

mpizza

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I received the survey and completed it. My concern is that I feel forced to join just to keep the ownership rights I already own. If I don't go along with the "enhanced" points program, my ownership will lose its inherent value; i.e., I always reserve two weeks concurrently at my home resort during a holiday week for an extended family trip. If most Platinum owners sign-up and have Home Resort Priority, my chances of reserving those two prime Platinum weeks may diminish significantly.

On the plus side, I also own a Silver Marriott week that I use for trading, I would like the ability to break that week up for weekend stays.

Maria
 

dioxide45

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I prefer the current system with II and make most of my exchanges during Flexchange. But there are many platinum Marriott weeks that won't be as valuable as Hawaii. With II you still had a chance of an exchange with your Manor Club platinum or Hilton Head gold. There have been many reports on TUG of Marriott owners getting some great exchanges with II, and not just during Flexchange. With a point system that option for an upgrade won't exist, at least without using (or purchasing) more points. I'd rather stick with the current system and II.

With travel to Hawaii down you will probably see a drop in occupancy in Hawaii Marriott's with this. Currently it is easier to trade in to Hawaii with II. If a plan is implimented where Marriott assigns more points to Marriott, not only will people not be able to afford to fly there, they may not have anough points to get in there either and just won't bother.
 

m61376

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With travel to Hawaii down you will probably see a drop in occupancy in Hawaii Marriott's with this. Currently it is easier to trade in to Hawaii with II. If a plan is implimented where Marriott assigns more points to Marriott, not only will people not be able to afford to fly there, they may not have anough points to get in there either and just won't bother.

That's part of the point I was trying to make. Fixing a set number of points to Hawaii weeks will hamper trading into Hawaii even during those times when Hawaii weeks are less desirable. Weeks will remain vacant rather than being available for someone to "luck out" with an upgrade.

Similarly, since all vacation weeks in Hawaii are considered Platinum (except for a few holiday weeks) and cost the same to purchase (except the new Maui units), then I would assume owners would all receive the same number of points for their Platinum week. On the flip side, all Platinum weeks should "cost" the same number of points to trade into. So- one would need as powerful a trader to get a summer week as an April or September week (since the point cost would be the same). If they assigned a different point cost for trading in at different times of the year, then they would be admitting that not all Platinum weeks, which cost the same, have equal value- a catch 22.

Sounds like a lot of frustration. The only "winners" in this system will be owners of peak properties, who will be able to get more than a week anywhere else. But- today's best properties may not hold the same value 5 years down the road, when the newer resorts get - and cost- more points.
 

littlestar

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I received the survey even though I'm not a Marriott owner; I have been to a couple of sales presentations over the past couple of years. We decided to buy DVC over Marriott because of the flexibility of the points system and the fact that we were able to dip our toes into timesharing through the purchase of a relatively small number of points (equivalent to an EOY Marriott purchase).

The survey felt like they were describing many aspects of the Disney system. I would imagine that we would have gone with Marriott over Disney if the points system was available at that time; mostly because of the superior nature of the Marriott resorts and the large number of destinations.

What I like about Marriott compared to DVC is that the maintenance fees for the larger units aren't anywhere near what DVC charges. You'll pay almost double in maintenance fees for a DVC 2 bedroom over an average Marriott (excluding the Hawaii Marriotts). You pay a premium in maintenance fees for a point system.

We own both DVC and Marriott. We usually stay in studios when we use our DVC points (to stretch the points) and when we trade our Marriott I lock it off and we get to stay in 1 and 2 bedrooms. It sounds like I may only be able to stay in Marriott efficiencies if they implement this points system. :rolleyes: Especially if most resorts are assigned low values because they aren't in Hawaii.
 

Big Matt

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I'm a glass is half full kind of guy, so I'll respond to this with who I think will "win" in this new game they are proposing.

1) people who own 2BR units that can take 1BR and studios and still be happy
2) people who can/like to travel in the off or shoulder seasons
3) people who will be happy going to the highest demand locations for fewer than seven days
4) people who want to lock in stays at their home resort for the same weeks for up to three years in a row
5) ...and this one hasn't been discussed at all...people with tons of reward points who can supplement thier stays with hotel/timeshare points redemptions. Given the new model, it would seem that one could stay somewhere like Aruba for a shorter stay (say 3-4 days) and then stay at the hotel on points (no blackouts, and no double points required in new system).

I totally agree that those with the most points going in have an advantage, but you get the most value by following numbers 1-5 above.


The only "winners" in this system will be owners of peak properties, who will be able to get more than a week anywhere else. But- today's best properties may not hold the same value 5 years down the road, when the newer resorts get - and cost- more points.
 

thinze3

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It appears that there is a great amount anxiety here, as people do not yet know the value of what they actually own within the upcoming system. It also appears that some are worried about the possibilty of not being able to trade that 2BR Manor Club (example) for that 2BR Hawaii anymore.

Most Manor Club to Hawaii exchanges are 2BR for 1BR now and will probably continue to be so with the new system. Yes, we Tuggers seem to know the system a bit better that the average Joe and can pull of a 2BR for 2BR trade every now and then, but should it be expected? When Manor Club owners paid half as much upfront and pay half as much annually as Hawaii owners, again should the 2BR for 2BR trade be expected? (please do not tell me what the salesman promised)

Another thing; The complaints all these years about people booking the most prime 4th of July weeks at Manor Club, only to deposit them with II in hopes of landing a 2BR "upgrade" at Hawaii (or wherever), obviously have been heard by Marriott. Manor Club owners who bought to actually use their weeks every now and then, may now be able to go to their timeshares more often on the dates they want to go now - i.e. July 4th.

Suggestion: If you want to have higher annual points, I would suggest that you purchase a premium property now (Hawaii, Aruba platinum, Utah ski, etc..) before the changes take effect. Better yet, purchase two lessor units at half the cost and fees and this will give you more flexibilty, of course you may lose the priority period of the higher resort.

Terry

PS -
Please understand that I am not picking on Manor Club, only using it as an example due to its popularity. I too traded a MLE 2BR for a KoOlina 2BR for next summer and realize that I will be in that same boat as Manor Club. :)
 

bookworm

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I am not very supportive of this change. What I like about the Wyndham points program which I know something about is the ability to book shorter stays which suits our lifestyle. I also like depositing smaller amounts of points into the external exchange company and getting full weeks back (II tends to curb this a bit compared to RCI - but many fantastic opportunities are still available.) I like the opportunity to rent points from other owners and rent out the points I don't need in a given year. I like choosing the size without the guesswork of external exchanges. What I don't like is the constant points creep that goes on with new resorts and the fact that they can take unreserved dates at about 2 months out and rent them to the public. Wyndham has also found ways to add extra fees with huge increases that we have absolutely no control over (like expensive guest certificates, extra transactions, points rental, etc.) Hopefully Marriott would have some self-control in this regard.

If I recall correctly, the survey is saying they may give the first several months priority to those who are willing to book seven days. This will make shorter stays more difficult to get and may defeat a main benefit to points. With Wyndham, any prime season time can be booked in 3 or 4 day increments right off the bat. Non-prime season can be booked in 2 or more days. THIS is flexibility which provides opportunities for weekends or Mon-Wed. stays, etc. (Though it sounds like they may be trying to address weekend stays.)
Based on Marriott's legal documents, would there be anything keeping them from renting out inventory that has not been reserved to the general public as check in dates draw near? If not - definitely a negative.
Any thoughts on how they might handle transfers of points from one account to another? Nothing about this in the survey that I saw.

I can only imagine that resorts like ours, Horizons at Branson platinum, will not be awarded many points compared to other places. If we can trade into many locations in prime season now plus get ACs, why would those of us owning in these places want this new system? Let's say I want to exchange into Myrtle Beach or Hilton Head in June, but I only have enough points for 5 days. However, I can't even make an exchange for less than a week until 6 months out. There will most likely be no inventory left and no way for me to just choose a 1 bedroom instead which I might have considered. Not a good deal. Right now I have a much better chance of getting this exchange through II plus an AC as a bonus.

From a consumer's perspective, there are other good points systems already out there to supplement Marriott weeks.
 
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CMF

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Will Marriott ever disclose the survey results?

I'm wondering if this is really a survey or if this is just Marriott's way of breaking the news to owners that the change is on the horizon. They can cite the "survey' when responding to unhappy owners - "Sorry Mr./Mrs Grumpy, but owners overwhelmingly voted in favor of the new system."

Charles "Not Always Paranoid" Marriott Owner.
 
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