Vacation Club Points Survey

[sernow]

The more Marriott tinkers and creates uncertainty, the more they damage their brand.

 

[jerseygirl]

In the event you might want to trade out of Marriott (e.g., visit Harborside, Four Seasons Troon, etc.), you want clarification on how II deposits will be handled.

Hyatt's Model:

A Hyatt 2-BR gold week is worth 1880 Hyatt points. If you deposit one, you can trade into ANY available red 2-BR for 1300 points, and save the extra 580 to use for something else (a one-BR green week, for example, or combine with other previous or future deposits to get another red 2-BR). You have no idea what Hyatt actually deposits, but you don't care because all trades are point-based (there are no trade power issues). If you use less points then you own in a given year, you can deposit the remaining points into II, but must do so 4 months (I believe) prior to your usage week. You cannot use your Hyatt points to trade through II into another Hyatt resort -- all "Hyatt-to-Hyatt" trades must be done through Hyatt.

Starwood's Model

Starwood chooses the week to deposit for SVN members (their rules allow them to choose the resort as well, but they usually try to deposit from the same resort). Example, you own a Phase One Platinum Week at Broadway Plantation in Myrtle Beach. Platinum season is weeks 9-43 and 47. Although a SVN member can certainly book week 27 to use, he/she will not be permitted to deposit it. Under SVN's plan, Starwood will choose the week to deposit -- and it's not going to be week 27, more likely week 9, which has really lousy trading power. (Newport Coast has a very long Platinum season, right? Newport Coast owners want to retain the right to book and deposit a prime summer week if II trading will still be trade-power based).

Watch the II clause carefully!! You don't want Starwood's model.

 

[BocaBum99]

In the event you might want to trade out of Marriott (e.g., visit Harborside, Four Seasons Troon, etc.), you want clarification on how II deposits will be handled.

Hyatt's Model:

A Hyatt 2-BR gold week is worth 1880 Hyatt points. If you deposit one, you can trade into ANY available red 2-BR for 1300 points, and save the extra 580 to use for something else (a one-BR green week, for example, or combine with other previous or future deposits to get another red 2-BR). You have no idea what Hyatt actually deposits, but you don't care because all trades are point-based (there are no trade power issues). If you use less points then you own in a given year, you can deposit the remaining points into II, but must do so 4 months (I believe) prior to your usage week. You cannot use your Hyatt points to trade through II into another Hyatt resort -- all "Hyatt-to-Hyatt" trades must be done through Hyatt.

Starwood's Model

Starwood chooses the week to deposit for SVN members (their rules allow them to choose the resort as well, but they usually try to deposit from the same resort). Example, you own a Phase One Platinum Week at Broadway Plantation in Myrtle Beach. Platinum season is weeks 9-43 and 47. Although a SVN member can certainly book week 27 to use, he/she will not be permitted to deposit it. Under SVN's plan, Starwood will choose the week to deposit -- and it's not going to be week 27, more likely week 9, which has really lousy trading power. (Newport Coast has a very long Platinum season, right? Newport Coast owners want to retain the right to book and deposit a prime summer week if II trading will still be trade-power based).

Watch the II clause carefully!! You don't want Starwood's model.

I completely agree with this assessment. However, I do believe that Marriott is smart enough to negotiate a no (or limited) trading power agreement. They would probably get a feature like Diamond or WorldMark where you have a certain number of points with virtually unlimited trading power. That would be a great feature for Marriott owners who participate.

I do believe that the vast majority of owners will NOT opt into the program. After 10 years, less than 50% of all weeks will convert. That's not usual for a points program. Marriott must sell upgrades to basically take control of the owners weeks. When they say they are in control of internal exchanges, that is code for they control you week once you enroll unless you opt for your resort within the pre-defined use period.

 

[jerseygirl]

However, I do believe that Marriott is smart enough to negotiate a no (or limited) trading power agreement. They would probably get a feature like Diamond or WorldMark where you have a certain number of points with virtually unlimited trading power. That would be a great feature for Marriott owners who participate.

I would hope so too Jim (just like Hyatt's agreement) ... but, you never know. Starwood wasn't smart enough to do this ... or, more likely, didn't care enough ....

I love Starwood's resorts, but their program is terrible -- no ability to bank or borrow points, trading through II is a crapshoot -- you can get a terrible week deposited (no points).

If Marriott is really smart --- they'll use the best parts of the other hotel brands:

Hilton -- banking and borrowing, ability to book less than a week at 9 months, great cash deals at the 30 day mark

Hyatt -- no banking, but can stretch current year's usage into 20 months, ability to book less than a week without waiting until the 90-day mark, great options through II

Starwood --- ummm ... I'm going blank here

 

[sdtugger]

I'm trying to understand why I would want to pay to join this point system. I know other systems have been able to get people to pay to join. But, from the descriptions in the survey, the advantages don't help me much at all and the disadvantages are significant (no trade ups, no bonus weeks, increased fees if you don't normally do what is now included in the combined fee, etc.). I own in Hawaii, but the example in the survey seems to be saying that you will need almost double the "normal" platinum points to trade into Hawaii. That is a huge disadvantage for my non-Hawaii weeks. To be asked to pay to join is just amazing.

What has happened in other systems when they've migrated to a points system?

 

[BocaBum99]

I'm trying to understand why I would want to pay to join this point system. I know other systems have been able to get people to pay to join. But, from the descriptions in the survey, the advantages don't help me much at all and the disadvantages are significant (no trade ups, no bonus weeks, increased fees if you don't normally do what is now included in the combined fee, etc.). I own in Hawaii, but the example in the survey seems to be saying that you will need almost double the "normal" platinum points to trade into Hawaii. That is a huge disadvantage for my non-Hawaii weeks. To be asked to pay to join is just amazing.

What has happened in other systems when they've migrated to a points system?

The typical model is a multi-site timeshare plan is formed and deeds are in some way committed to the new timeshare plan by being converted into the point system. That takes work and in some cases redeeding.

The way it is sold is as if ALL units are already in the new point system. But, they aren't. They try to scare you into believing that over time, you won't be able to use your weeks like you always have. However, this assumes that the majority of owners convert to points, which NEVER happens.

So, there is a new sales model put in place where owners are allowed to upgrade into the program by purchasing more points. Sometimes they are deeded. Sometimes they aren't. My guess is that Marriott will retain its deeded more like Hyatt.

Based on what they are describing, I wouldn't even be concered about it. No way they are going to get even a majority to convert. Those who don't convert will be able to use everything they have today.

Marriott should do this program for all the new resorts just to be competitive. And, they should buy back deeds to add into Club to make it more viable.

 

[jasfan]

Not Impressed

REALLY don't like the changes. Many fees, and they aren't cheap. This system benefits Marriott most, financially, controlling inventory, renting excess inventory, reducing the number of nights owners actually bought.

I have used flexchange, as well as standard exchanges. In both cases, Marriott can give me less than a week (5 or 6 days) or a lessor sized unit, and sell the excess inventory.

To the question "what will this do to resales?" It will most likely have the strongest weeks at the strongest resorts hold value as the current system, but it will be harmful to all others. Buying a week that will only trade for 4 or 5 days certainly can't help values.

This gives Marriott FAR TOO MUCH CONTROL of inventories at a cost to owners. They simply can squeeze room nights out of most every owner.

I have never complained about Marriott, as I have truly liked the experience and service and system. This change is not for good. Outrageously one-sided at a potential cost to the majority of owners.

 

[mas]

No one is exploiting the system in this situation...

I didn't mean to suggest that anyone was doing something unethical. If you can exchange a studio for a 2BR in the current system, more power to you. I was just stating that it's one thing to be able to make such an exchange, it's another thing to expect this as a matter of course.

 

[mas]

...The way it is sold is as if ALL units are already in the new point system. But, they aren't. They try to scare you into believing that over time, you won't be able to use your weeks like you always have. However, this assumes that the majority of owners convert to points, which NEVER happens...

That's what I was thinking when I read the part about joining or not. If a lot of existing owners decide to go for this system, what is left for those who choose not to. If most stay with the current system, what are your odds of having available inventory when and where you want it. That to me sounds like contention between the RCI weeks/points systems.

 

[thinze3]

I just finished taking this lengthy survey as well. I wrote several notes about the possibilty of being ticked off if resale owners are affected in any way by these changes, although it was never mentioned.

Basically, Marriott wants to sell you into their new points system even though you have already bought into their system once. It is merely a way to get more money out of existing owners. If I were a recent buyer of a Marriott Developer unit, especially a high priced one, and Marriott wanted even more of my money, I would be one very unhappy owner.

The discrepency between resorts is obviously going to be a sore spot for many owners.

Look at this quote:

For example, assume you own a 2-bedroom Villa during Platinum season, and you're given an annual allocation of 28,900 Vacation Points. The following are four hypothetical scenarios of how you could use your 28,900 Vacation Points in the future:

Option 1 - Minimal change, use your full points for a full week at a resort you desire

* Go to Myrtle Beach during Platinum season and stay in a 2-bedroom villa for 7 nights.

Option 2 - Change the number of bedroom and access a more highly demanded resort during peak season

* Go to the Caribbean to stay at a 1 bedroom during Platinum season for 7 nights.

This basically says that a 2BR Platinum at Myrtle Beach will be worth less than a 2BR Platinum at Aruba.



Terry

 

[andrea t]

I just finished the survey and I would convert if offered. I love my DVC point system and all the flexibilty it gives me.

 

[BocaBum99]

There is no doubt that this gives Marriott more control of inventory which can both help and hurt owners. Resales will definitely be hurt because membership into the point system won't transfer unless weeks are deeded into a permanent trust. That is probably the biggest negative.

Marriott is definitely doing this to be more competitive and to have more control over resales.

 

[LAX Mom]

I see all kinds of potential problems for Marriott owners. Marriott will tell you how many points your unit is worth.

For years their salesmen have been advising potential customers that they can exchange their gold Park City or platinum Manor Club into Hawaii, Newport Coast or Aruba. Now Marriott will tell some platinum members that there units are worth less than platinum at other resorts.

What about the MF's? A bronze Summit Watch owner pays the same MF as platinum. It seems like this would make it very difficult for Marriott to sell low season weeks in the future.

I've very happy with the current Marriott & II system. I don't think I'd convert, but probably sell my timeshares if II no longer offers the exchanges I want.

 

[vacationtime1]

If Marriott switches to a point-based exchange system, expect changes in when and how it will exercise ROFR.

Marriott exists to make profits for its shareholders. To the extent it can snag a resale, enhance it, and resell it at a profit, it will do so. The "enhancement" will be participation in the points system, something that will cost Marriott nothing but something that many buyers will pay for. It would also help create the critical mass of points inventory that some of the previous posts address. The decision on what inventory Marriott wants to create will influence when it exercises ROFR (think: what is a tough trade to get vs. what is available as Interval Getaways).

A points system will thereby reduce the value of non-prime weeks (summer desert weeks, etc.) and destroy the value of bronze weeks; Interval will no longer be required to give those weeks any exchange preferences.

 

[Steve]

I've very happy with the current Marriott & II system. I don't think I'd convert, but probably sell my timeshares if II no longer offers the exchanges I want.

If you believe that Marriott is serious about implementing this new program...and it certainly sounds like they are...then the time to sell is now. If you wait until the program is rolled out, it might be too late as a lot of off season weeks will become virtually (if not completely) worthless.

I also think that the value of a lot of platinum weeks will take a beating, including those at Manor Club, Fairway Villas, Legends Edge, Horizons, Cypress Harbour, Royal Palms, Villas at Doral, etc. (Of course, you will still be able to exchange through II, but there won't be nearly as many Marriott weeks in II's inventory to exchange into.)

Timesharing sometimes reminds me of the old Kenny Rogers' song, The Gambler: "You've got to know when to hold 'em. Know when to fold 'em. Know when to walk away. Know when to run."

Steve

 

[jmatthews93]

Cost to Join Changes on the Surveys

On the survey, there is a question that goes something like "assuming the program had all the features you wanted, would you pay $X to join?" My first number was $7,500! I saw someone else mentioned their first number was $2,000, and it went down as they said "no way" to the number. Mine also declined until I got to $750 and answered I might pay that amount. I think the starting number may be based on the Income question they ask you at the beginning of the survey. Tricky....:annoyed:

 

[bobcat]

On the survey, there is a question that goes something like "assuming the program had all the features you wanted, would you pay $X to join?" My first number was $7,500! I saw someone else mentioned their first number was $2,000, and it went down as they said "no way" to the number. Mine also declined until I got to $750 and answered I might pay that amount. I think the starting number may be based on the Income question they ask you at the beginning of the survey. Tricky....:annoyed:

That old saying still goes. " Purchase where you would vacation to and be able to drive to". Received the survey. Do not want points. Told them so. It looks like the points would be based on the week or color you own. Alot of owners would be unhappy. If it goes thru, you will have two systems. Points and weeks. If week owners do not go into points, there may not be too many units left for point vacations.

 

[davidvel]

On the survey, there is a question that goes something like "assuming the program had all the features you wanted, would you pay $X to join?" My first number was $7,500! I saw someone else mentioned their first number was $2,000, and it went down as they said "no way" to the number. Mine also declined until I got to $750 and answered I might pay that amount. I think the starting number may be based on the Income question they ask you at the beginning of the survey. Tricky....:annoyed:

Tricky certainly, but this post is frankly the scariest of all of the thousands of posts on the "new points" system that preceded it. It seems the new system will be more diabolical than ever imagined.

 

[iamnotshopgirl]

I also took the survey. The fee portion structure got my attention. Additional fees along with high Mf's and assessments? Will it become cheaper to rent vs own? Nowhere in the survey does it talk about how they would handle resales. Will they grandfather them in? What about future resales will they allow them into the point system? I'm closing on a resale now is it a waste of money? Marriott already charges for views, seasons and type of weeks when you purchase. Do they want you to pay again for the privilege? I made comments on the survey also and as to the question will you be willing to pay X$ for additional features I to hit the NO button until it reached $250. I am not committed one way or the other. I'm going to have to see the final product to make my decision but I like what I have now and will have to weigh the change to points.

bob

 

[dioxide45]

I also took the survey. The fee portion structure got my attention. Additional fees along with high Mf's and assessments? Will it become cheaper to rent vs own? Nowhere in the survey does it talk about how they would handle resales. Will they grandfather them in? What about future resales will they allow them into the point system? I'm closing on a resale now is it a waste of money? Marriott already charges for views, seasons and type of weeks when you purchase. Do they want you to pay again for the privilege? I made comments on the survey also and as to the question will you be willing to pay X$ for additional features I to hit the NO button until it reached $250. I am not committed one way or the other. I'm going to have to see the final product to make my decision but I like what I have now and will have to weigh the change to points.

bob

From the survey it appears that Marriott would be willing to take money from anyone, resale or direct.

 

[thinze3]

If you believe that Marriott is serious about implementing this new program...and it certainly sounds like they are...then the time to sell is now. If you wait until the program is rolled out, it might be too late as a lot of off season weeks will become virtually (if not completely) worthless.

I believe that this is very good time to buy and be grandfathered in as Dave's original post stated 11 months ago.

....
Grandfathering? Yes, Marriott plans to grandfather all owners, presumably as of the date the change is announced or implemented. Thus, if you buy a Marriott timeshare on the resale market now, you will - as currently planned - be exempt from the proposed restrictions on resale weeks, whatever they might be. That makes sense because it would be a public relations nightmare if Marriott implemented such a drastic change that impacted existing owners – whether resale or not.

I also think that the value of a lot of platinum weeks will take a beating, including those at Manor Club, Fairway Villas, Legends Edge, Horizons, Cypress Harbour, Royal Palms, Villas at Doral, etc. (Of course, you will still be able to exchange through II, but there won't be nearly as many Marriott weeks in II's inventory to exchange into.) ...

Most likely those resorts will be similar to Starwood Starwood's second tier resorts (i.e. Broadway Plantation, Vistana) and have enough value to only trade into a 1BR at an upper tier location.

Question is: What is upper tier? Hawaii, Aruba platinum, Utah platinum? What about Hilton Head platinum or Palm Springs platinum - will they be second tier similar to the survey's suggestion of Myrtle Beach? Then you move down to South Florida (Ocean Pointe and BeachPlace Place) - will their platinum season's also be second tier?

We shall see soon enough.


Terry

 

[lovearuba]

maintenance

To be fair I would hope the price it cost us to maintain our timeshares would be part of the formula.

 

[thinze3]

To be fair I would hope the price it cost us to maintain our timeshares would be part of the formula.

Part of the survey asked questions like how much would you be willing to pay for 3 months exclusive booking at your home resort. But, the survey didn't state whether or not thos eextra fees were in addition to your existing high Hawaii MF's or whether that was in addition to a level playing field to start with. IMO

I wasn't willing to pay anything extra based on the assumption that my Hawaii MF's were already high.


Terry

 

[sdtugger]

They would probably get a feature like Diamond or WorldMark where you have a certain number of points with virtually unlimited trading power. That would be a great feature for Marriott owners who participate.

I thought Diamond had unlimited trade power until a few months ago. Members of my family have Diamond points. I could see 2 bedrooms at 4 Seasons Aviara in Carlsbad with my Horizon's Branson 1 bedroom. When I called the Marriott II desk they were willing to hold THREE 2 bedroom units and may have let me use an AC for one of them. But, when my family members tried to use Diamond points, the most they could reserve was 1 bedrooms for the same weeks. We called and tried every angle possible. But, the bottom line was that my lowly Horizons Branson 1 bedroom could pull 2 bedrooms at the 4 Seasons and an unlimited number of Diamond points could only pull 1 bedrooms. I don't want that system . . . .

 

[LAX Mom]

Part of the survey asked questions like how much would you be willing to pay for 3 months exclusive booking at your home resort. But, the survey didn't state whether or not thos eextra fees were in addition to your existing high Hawaii MF's or whether that was in addition to a level playing field to start with. IMO

I wasn't willing to pay anything extra based on the assumption that my Hawaii MF's were already high.


Terry

Why should Marriott owners have to pay extra for exclusive booking at their home resort?
That is just an ackowledgement by Marriott that the system doesn't work at some resorts. For instance you own platinum at Newport Coast but can't ever get the week you want. Now some owners will pay extra $$ and be able to book ahead of the rest of the owners? Sounds like a plan that will make many owners unhappy!