Timeshare Traveler Episode 80... Abound / Vistana Owner Update

[Clifbell]

I just completed an owner update at a Westin Property where the discussion centered around the New Abound platform. The Abound Platform is the new name for the Combined Vistana and Marriott Timeshares. Supposedly, the new program is rolling out. You should be getting the official communication over the next few months. Marriott has a lot of owners and the email communication will be massive which is adding to the delay. In this video I will provide a detail report on what I learned in the owner update. I was fortunate to have a very knowledgeable salesperson. They presented me a viable option for an upgrade that would have enhanced my portfolio. We discussed the new point values and they had a glossy new location / point planner that I could peruse but not keep. The Abound Program is modeled after the Marriott program but with Vistana properties added. We also discussed general priorities with the new program. Enjoy.

Timeshare Traveler Episode 80... Abound / Vistana Owner Update

Map of all my timeshare reviews

 

[dioxide45]

This might have been better posted in the Vistana forum since it seems that Abound will have a bigger impact to those owners and it was also a Vistana owner update you attended.

We too did an owner update. Ours was at Westin Kierland Villas. Right now we aren't learning much more than we are discovering on TUG. But it is all still coming from owner updates. The different reps are inconsistent on if you have to buy more to get in, but they are simply trying to sell the product and deception sometimes works best. @kozykritter did post the Westin point charts if anyone wants to take a look at them.

 

[Clifbell]

This might have been better posted in the Vistana forum since it seems that Abound will have a bigger impact to those owners and it was also a Vistana owner update you attended.

We too did an owner update. Ours was at Westin Kierland Villas. Right now we aren't learning much more than we are discovering on TUG. But it is all still coming from owner updates. The different reps are inconsistent on if you have to buy more to get in, but they are simply trying to sell the product and deception sometimes works best. @kozykritter did post the Westin point charts if anyone wants to take a look at them.

I was also updated at the westin Kierland Villas... Let me see if I can switch it to a Vistana post. Wasn't sure since I was told Vistana merger was complete and then there were go live problems.

 

[Makai Guy]

You can't move a thread to a different forum, but I can ....

 

[Clifbell]

You can't move a thread to a different forum, but I can ....

Glad someone with “special powers” was listening . Appreciate if you move it to vistana

 

[kozykritter]

I was also updated at the westin Kierland Villas... Let me see if I can switch it to a Vistana post. Wasn't sure since I was told Vistana merger was complete and then there were go live problems.

Yes, the MVW executives told all the analysts the same thing on this week's earnings call, minus the part where there were go live problems that prevented the launch from actually happening for all owners in either program. If you can't use it, it hasn't happened yet.

PS...love your video reviews of Worldmark properties...has helped me a lot with my travel planning!

 

[Clifbell]

Yes, the MVW executives told all the analysts the same thing on this week's earnings call, minus the part where there were go live problems that prevented the launch from actually happening for all owners in either program. If you can't use it, it hasn't happened yet.

PS...love your video reviews of Worldmark properties...has helped me a lot with my travel planning!

I wish Marriott would communicate better. I actually had the conversation where the salesperson was looking forward to showing me "abound", but the system delays had made that impossible.... They had to keep checking to see if they could still sell certain things.

Glad I can help regarding your Worldmark planning.

 

[DanV]

Thanks for the helpful video update Clif. I attended an owner update today and have some Vistana/Abound merger information that owners may be interested in learning. Context: owner update at Westin Kierland (offer $150 Visa gift card, $200 resort credit or 30K Bonvoy points). Experienced Vista rep and Marriott rep called in half-way through the pitch. I own one Every Other Year (EOY) Platinum week at Kierland that was retro'd after buying some Westin Flex. I like Marriott properties but own nothing in that system and know virtually nothing about it. A few highlights from the update:

• Program does seem to be finalized (including all point conversions) based on what I saw on the sales system they were using
  • Calculator allowed them to select any Vistana program/property and get the equivalent number of Abound program points
  • So, finalized if not all details yet public
• As I understand it, you do not need to buy anything for a Vistana owner to book at a Marriott property
  • However, you do have to move your Staroptions to the Abound program by a certain date (they told me by September 30 in the year prior to your desired use)
  • So, the properties are not all being moved into the same network - just that you can move your SOs into Marriott system (I think they said that once they are moved you cannot move them back - but you could bank them)
  • The upside here, of course, is that if you like the way things are now, you won't technically have things "taken away" - you aren't (can't legally) be forced to participate in Abound
    • That being said, the demand for Westin properties is likely to be high from Marriott Club owners so I wouldn't say everything will actually be the same
  • Didn't think to ask if this conversion is available to all owners or just on retro'd properties (sorry, should have asked this)
• What is interesting is that the conversion values apparently vary quite a bit. They said that
  • Nanea has highest conversion value
  • Westin Flex next highest
  • Then either Sheraton Flex or Aventuras
  • Each home resort week has it's own value as well
• They claim that each Marriott Club point is now being sold at $16.08/pt. (I assume this is the "full retail" cost but that promos, etc. exist)
• My EOY Platinum week would convert to 2,025 Abound points so, (148,100/2/2,025) = 36.5 Westin Kierland SOs per Abound point (smaller numbers are better)
  • They acknowledged that this was not a good conversion rate, were a little perplexed by it and made no suggestion to ever convert these SOs into the Abound program
    • Their advice was - keep these in the Vistana system
• My 57,000 annual Westin Flex SOs translate to 1,976 Abound points so, 28.8 SOs per Abound point (smaller number = better conversion)
• I'm sure there is interest but I'm sorry I don't have any insight into any of the other specific conversion rates (other than the general order mentioned above)
• This is probably public through the Marriott system but if you haven't seen it, you can see the ownership benefit levels here:
  • http://marriottvacationsworldwide.com/common/cms/mvc/pdfs/owners/Owner-Benefit-Level.pdf
  • As I understand it, all of your holdings in Marriott, Westin and Sheraton will be converted and totaled to get your owner status
    • Not exactly sure if the old Vistana status is going away
• One other interesting change that they mentioned in passing is that many of the individual "nuisance fees" are going away and there will be one general fee charged each year ~$200
  • No more banking fees, borrowing fees, etc.

Hope this helps provide a little insight!

 

[MikeHoncho]

Is there any way to tell how many resale versus qualified units are at each location? Unless they put the conversion rates in writing, it would seem these rates could change yearly based on Marriott's inventory.

From my limited understanding, any unit that is put into the Abound system yearly will go into a separate pool. Marriott could easily let those units have first dibs on any weeks which could impact Westin owners who decide not to participate. This could really impact other Westin mandatory owners trying to get trying to get in at the 8-month window.


We're on the fence about buying resale into one of the Maui mandatory locations

 

[Clifbell]

Thanks for the helpful video update Clif. I attended an owner update today and have some Vistana/Abound merger information that owners may be interested in learning. Context: owner update at Westin Kierland (offer $150 Visa gift card, $200 resort credit or 30K Bonvoy points). Experienced Vista rep and Marriott rep called in half-way through the pitch. I own one Every Other Year (EOY) Platinum week at Kierland that was retro'd after buying some Westin Flex. I like Marriott properties but own nothing in that system and know virtually nothing about it. A few highlights from the update:

• Program does seem to be finalized (including all point conversions) based on what I saw on the sales system they were using
  • Calculator allowed them to select any Vistana program/property and get the equivalent number of Abound program points
  • So, finalized if not all details yet public
• As I understand it, you do not need to buy anything for a Vistana owner to book at a Marriott property
  • However, you do have to move your Staroptions to the Abound program by a certain date (they told me by September 30 in the year prior to your desired use)
  • So, the properties are not all being moved into the same network - just that you can move your SOs into Marriott system (I think they said that once they are moved you cannot move them back - but you could bank them)
  • The upside here, of course, is that if you like the way things are now, you won't technically have things "taken away" - you aren't (can't legally) be forced to participate in Abound
    • That being said, the demand for Westin properties is likely to be high from Marriott Club owners so I wouldn't say everything will actually be the same
  • Didn't think to ask if this conversion is available to all owners or just on retro'd properties (sorry, should have asked this)
• What is interesting is that the conversion values apparently vary quite a bit. They said that
  • Nanea has highest conversion value
  • Westin Flex next highest
  • Then either Sheraton Flex or Aventuras
  • Each home resort week has it's own value as well
• They claim that each Marriott Club point is now being sold at $16.08/pt. (I assume this is the "full retail" cost but that promos, etc. exist)
• My EOY Platinum week would convert to 2,025 Abound points so, (148,100/2/2,025) = 36.5 Westin Kierland SOs per Abound point (smaller numbers are better)
  • They acknowledged that this was not a good conversion rate, were a little perplexed by it and made no suggestion to ever convert these SOs into the Abound program
    • Their advice was - keep these in the Vistana system
• My 57,000 annual Westin Flex SOs translate to 1,976 Abound points so, 28.8 SOs per Abound point (smaller number = better conversion)
• I'm sure there is interest but I'm sorry I don't have any insight into any of the other specific conversion rates (other than the general order mentioned above)
• This is probably public through the Marriott system but if you haven't seen it, you can see the ownership benefit levels here:
  • http://marriottvacationsworldwide.com/common/cms/mvc/pdfs/owners/Owner-Benefit-Level.pdf
  • As I understand it, all of your holdings in Marriott, Westin and Sheraton will be converted and totaled to get your owner status
    • Not exactly sure if the old Vistana status is going away
• One other interesting change that they mentioned in passing is that many of the individual "nuisance fees" are going away and there will be one general fee charged each year ~$200
  • No more banking fees, borrowing fees, etc.

Hope this helps provide a little insight!

That is a great add to what I got. It seems the abound rate and the marriott rate are the same (or that is what they told me). I am not sure if I will move my Sheraton Flex into abound (the conversion was about 3200 points for 110,000 Sheraton Flex. My biggest worry is i won't be able to book the Westin Princeville as easy. Good news was that many of the Westin locations will be higher in cost (maintenance wise) compared to the Vistana point system. It will be good to see the actual program,

 

[Clifbell]

Is there any way to tell how many resale versus qualified units are at each location? Unless they put the conversion rates in writing, it would seem these rates could change yearly based on Marriott's inventory.

From my limited understanding, any unit that is put into the Abound system yearly will go into a separate pool. Marriott could easily let those units have first dibs on any weeks which could impact Westin owners who decide not to participate. This could really impact other Westin mandatory owners trying to get trying to get in at the 8-month window.


We're on the fence about buying resale into one of the Maui mandatory locations

I think you are correct about the Separate pool. Marriott destination points do not have a deed like the Sheraton / Westin Flex. I am guessing we will be offered upgrades to Abound points so they can get the deeds back. But we will see.

 

[dioxide45]

I think you are correct about the Separate pool. Marriott destination points do not have a deed like the Sheraton / Westin Flex. I am guessing we will be offered upgrades to Abound points so they can get the deeds back. But we will see.

Doubtful. In the over 10 years since Marriott rolled out the Destinations program, they have never offered a formal "trade-in" program to upgrade. You simply bought more points to use along with the enrolled weeks you already had. For whatever reason they never wanted the deeds back.

 

[dioxide45]

Is there any way to tell how many resale versus qualified units are at each location? Unless they put the conversion rates in writing, it would seem these rates could change yearly based on Marriott's inventory.

From my limited understanding, any unit that is put into the Abound system yearly will go into a separate pool. Marriott could easily let those units have first dibs on any weeks which could impact Westin owners who decide not to participate. This could really impact other Westin mandatory owners trying to get trying to get in at the 8-month window.


We're on the fence about buying resale into one of the Maui mandatory locations

Once set, the number of points you get for your week (at least in the current Marriott system) don't change. Our Orlando Harbour Lake week has always been worth 1,950 points. It never goes up and never goes down.

 

[DanV]

A few follow ups triggered by comments above . . . all of this is FWIW because it was from the sales reps . . .

• I was told that the exchange rates will be fixed (forever) - not even the slightest bit of hedging on this from either rep at any time during the conversation
• The Marriott rep said that any properties (including Vistana) that they bring back into the system through buy-backs, ROFR, etc. will go into the Marriott Abound program inventory
• Said that Marriott does not allow trade-ins (in order to trade-up) - this seems to be consistent with Clif's experience as a Marriott owner
• Marriott does not issue the Bonvoy certs for future Bonvoy point purchases (though they might in the future)
• BIG selling point was the "need" to get to Select owner status to give you the 13-month window since there are "so many more" Marriott owners
  • This was, however, offset by the Marriott rep who said the average booking window in the Marriott program is only 5 months . . . with some flexibility, you are able to get "late" reservations . . . just not at best properties at peak times
  • I suppose time will tell on this
• Was not asked to convert my SOs into the Abound program - may be an option in the future but the way it is being positioned now is that you make an annual election regarding how many SOs you want to put in the Abound program by September 30 of the year prior to use

Looking forward to conjecture and updates from other owners!

 

[kozykritter]

A few follow ups triggered by comments above . . . all of this is FWIW because it was from the sales reps . . .

• I was told that the exchange rates will be fixed (forever) - not even the slightest bit of hedging on this from either rep at any time during the conversation
• The Marriott rep said that any properties (including Vistana) that they bring back into the system through buy-backs, ROFR, etc. will go into the Marriott Abound program inventory
• Said that Marriott does not allow trade-ins (in order to trade-up) - this seems to be consistent with Clif's experience as a Marriott owner
• Marriott does not issue the Bonvoy certs for future Bonvoy point purchases (though they might in the future)
• BIG selling point was the "need" to get to Select owner status to give you the 13-month window since there are "so many more" Marriott owners
  • This was, however, offset by the Marriott rep who said the average booking window in the Marriott program is only 5 months . . . with some flexibility, you are able to get "late" reservations . . . just not at best properties at peak times
  • I suppose time will tell on this
• Was not asked to convert my SOs into the Abound program - may be an option in the future but the way it is being positioned now is that you make an annual election regarding how many SOs you want to put in the Abound program by September 30 of the year prior to use

Looking forward to conjecture and updates from other owners!

Everything you said tracks to what has generally been told to others in presentations. I learned about the Bonvoy certs the hard way when I made my first MVC purchase this summer and asked how many I would get. The salesperson said we don't do anything like that, what are you talking about?

 

[daviator]

Everything you said tracks to what has generally been told to others in presentations. I learned about the Bonvoy certs the hard way when I made my first MVC purchase this summer and asked how many I would get. The salesperson said we don't do anything like that, what are you talking about?

Do people actually use those certificates? Every time I've gotten them, I end up letting them expire unused. I do the math and it always works out that it's not that great a deal. You spend money today, for miles that start immediately depreciating (even more so today, now that there are no more fixed award charts.) You may be able to sometimes find a hotel booking where you save a tiny bit by using the award points you've purchased, or you may find that you'd have been better off to pay cash. I'm genuinely curious as to why people think those certificates have any significant value at all.

I would definitely not buy the points unless you have an immediate use for them which represents a good value. Otherwise they will just sit in your account and lose value as the redemption costs rise.

 

[cubigbird]

The points certs used to be a good deal. Unfortunately as Bonvoy points have been devalued, multiple times, the certs have not been updated to keep up.

 

[EnglishmanAbroad]

I've seen September 30th mentioned a few times (and I think by the rep. on our last update) as the date to commit to electing for the following year. If that's the case don't they have every incentive to get this off the ground in the next couple of weeks to give people time to consider what they want to do for 2023? (unless they extend the 9/30 date this year as a 'one off').

 

[Clifbell]

I've seen September 30th mentioned a few times (and I think by the rep. on our last update) as the date to commit to electing for the following year. If that's the case don't they have every incentive to get this off the ground in the next couple of weeks to give people time to consider what they want to do for 2023? (unless they extend the 9/30 date this year as a 'one off').

The Vistana website was down most of the day.... May underwater would be appropriate instead of off the ground

 

[TJALB]

I was also updated at the westin Kierland Villas... Let me see if I can switch it to a Vistana post. Wasn't sure since I was told Vistana merger was complete and then there were go live problems.

We’re you staying at the Westin Kierland or were you invited exclusively to attend a update meeting? I would actually like to attend one but, have not yet been approached by either Marriott or Vistana. I live only about 35 minutes from Kierland so it would be very easy to attend.
Thank you!

 

[kozykritter]

I've seen September 30th mentioned a few times (and I think by the rep. on our last update) as the date to commit to electing for the following year. If that's the case don't they have every incentive to get this off the ground in the next couple of weeks to give people time to consider what they want to do for 2023? (unless they extend the 9/30 date this year as a 'one off').

A few people have been told that the election period will last from launch date through 12/31 this year only as a special accommodation. Marriott did a similar thing when it launched the DC trust in 2010.

 

[DanV]

We’re you staying at the Westin Kierland or were you invited exclusively to attend a update meeting? I would actually like to attend one but, have not yet been approached by either Marriott or Vistana. I live only about 35 minutes from Kierland so it would be very easy to attend.
Thank you!

I was staying at Kierland and haven't been to an "owner update" in 3 months so was invited to attend one. Having said that, your question reminded me of another comment that was mentioned. Apparently, they are doing an in-person "roadshow" and will be visiting cities across the country to describe the program to members. Not sure if the schedule is available yet but assume they will be posting something or sending emails to owners soon.

 

[DanV]

Do people actually use those certificates? Every time I've gotten them, I end up letting them expire unused. I do the math and it always works out that it's not that great a deal. You spend money today, for miles that start immediately depreciating (even more so today, now that there are no more fixed award charts.) You may be able to sometimes find a hotel booking where you save a tiny bit by using the award points you've purchased, or you may find that you'd have been better off to pay cash. I'm genuinely curious as to why people think those certificates have any significant value at all.

I would definitely not buy the points unless you have an immediate use for them which represents a good value. Otherwise they will just sit in your account and lose value as the redemption costs rise.

Totally agree with this assessment. Like all programs, the points have been de-valued over time. There are still occasional good values (fewer with dynamic pricing) so I suppose it is nice to have the option to buy them.

 

[kozykritter]

These Bonvoy certs cash in for a cost of .69 cents per point. Full price from Marriott is $1.25 each and they put them on sale occasionally for a low of about .875 since each. So strictly looking from that vantage point, if you are going to buy points, they are likely the best deal you'll find.

Personally I make my value decision on whether or not to use points I own solely based upon my situational travel needs, not the general valuation placed upon them by self-proclaimed travel experts (TPG, etc). Often times I use points and free night certs on my drive to and from my timeshare stays out west to save my current cash for gas, meals, activities, sightseeing, etc, assuming the cost/value proposition is at least in the neighborhood of reasonable once I eyeball it.

 

[rcv82]

These Bonvoy certs cash in for a cost of .69 cents per point. Full price from Marriott is $1.25 each and they put them on sale occasionally for a low of about .875 since each. So strictly looking from that vantage point, if you are going to buy points, they are likely the best deal you'll find.

Personally I make my value decision on whether or not to use points I own solely based upon my situational travel needs, not the general valuation placed upon them by self-proclaimed travel experts (TPG, etc). Often times I use points and free night certs on my drive to and from my timeshare stays out west to save my current cash for gas, meals, activities, sightseeing, etc, assuming the cost/value proposition is at least in the neighborhood of reasonable once I eyeball it.

I wonder if anybody actually ever buys points at full price. Unless you just need to top a few off, it’s almost always an awful deal.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk