CLOSED: Thread Dedicated to the Upcoming/Anticipated Integration of Vistana & Marriott Ownerships (Marriott Link + Vistana Discussion)

[Red elephant]

Depending on the exchange rate, there may be VSN resort/unit that someone may want to secure 13 months out instead of 8 months.

True

 

[VacationForever]

Yeah that makes sense if your only ownership is Hawaii and you want to go to WKV. But I would rent Hawaiii and take part of the money and rent WKV instead.

Hawaii ownership is an extreme example which I used. With DC points you can come up ahead from value perspective at many resorts and when you travel. There are a few Hilton Head resorts, not the 3 main ocean/beach resorts where you can stay for peanuts... 950 DC points for a week. We travelled in September and booked a week in a 2BR in a prime location (Harbour Town) for something like 1450 DC points.

 

[kozykritter]

In which case it's less confusing to think of using the Destination Club as a two-step process:
- First step is choosing whether or not to enroll your ownership in the Destination Club (and pay the annual Club Dues fee to continue that enrollment,) which confers all of the usage options that already exist with your ownership *plus* membership in the Destination Club and all that it entails.
- Once enrolled then the second step would be determining the usage option for a particular year, whether that's home resort in season, electing StarOptions, electing Bonvoy Points, exchanging via II, etc, or, the newest option of electing DC Points for exchanging via the DC Exchange Company or whatever other DC options are available.

Marriott hasn't ever fully explained their inventory machinations. Of course it would make our timeshare usage decisions easier if they did but there's no requirement that they must so we're left to dissect the little information they do give us while relying on our collective experiences. I know that there's a persistent thought that the only intervals that can be booked using DC Points are the intervals that have either been permanently conveyed by Marriott to the DC Trust or the intervals that are deposited to the DC Exchange Company by Marriott and/or DC-enrolled members. But a few months after the DC was first rolled out they put out a FAQ that included a question of where DC Exchange Company intervals originate and the answer included this:

>>"... other Marriott Vacation Club Owners who enroll their weeks and elect Vacation Club Points, and non-enrolled Owners who trade their usage for Marriott Rewards points or exchange their week through membership in Interval International."<<

I also have experience with an advisor early on, before online reservations could be made, who specifically told me that the Exchange Company didn't have what I wanted "but hold on while I check II."

I remain convinced that inventory is manipulated among all the different buckets much more than we may think. The reason that I don't think Marriott somehow manipulates it to their advantage is because 1) the underlying governing docs of Marriott Weeks provide some protection from Marriott (the timeshare company and the hotel company) raiding the buckets for their own advantage and to the detriment of Owners, and 2) it appears to me that Marriott does not pre-select inventory for specific buckets but instead all inventory is managed such that selections for certain usage are made at the time of requests. I can't prove it, but I haven't seen any indication that Marriott is undermining Owners.

It seems unlikely to me that Vistana owners would need to pay Club Dues if they enroll their ownership in DC a particular year since all Vistana ownership that would be eligible to do so (according to Denise's contact) are ones that already pay the VSN membership fee. The contact said Vistana membership fees are being raised to MVC levels and transaction fees changed to match MVC's model while Vistana elite members are being given corresponding MVC elite levels. Everything is being set up to encourage easy and instant participation in the DC once a Vistana owner elects for a use year. Telling them to pay double the membership/club dues to participate would have a definite chilling effect on anyone electing DC, and not asking MVC owners do so the same to access Vistana properties could lead to Vistana owners wielding pitchforks and torches as they chase MVC executives around !

 

[jabberwocky]

I just finished our owner's update here at SDO. Very low-key and low-pressure. The salesperson said he couldn't really improve on what we already owned. I've found him to be an honest guy and this is our second time having a presentation with him.

Some interesting points to add:

- The Vistana to DC conversion tool was deployed last night (this is probably what the maintenance notice was about). He said today was the first day they could actually use it to see what the conversion values will be for different ownerships. Owners will be able to see the same thing when the system goes live this summer to convert.

- After I asked about what our portfolio would convert to, he went and got a printout of our portfolio that included all of the exact conversion values. (I wasn't able to get a picture of this as he didn't leave us alone after this - but I have no reason to doubt it is authentic given it was prepared upon request and took about 10 minutes and all the information on our ownerships lined up)

- As I suspected and was confirmed in the other thread conversion values for deeded weeks are based on the actual week, not the number of SO it converts to.

- Our WFlex ownership converts at 28.86:1 (WFlex to DC). This is lower than was reported in the other thread from Denise, so I'm not sure why there is a discrepancy.

- Our WKORVN OF week is worth 8325 points. This is close to what @dioxide45 had guessed they would be worth. Orlando for us isn't great (2625) and our SDO Plat is worth around (can't recall the exact number).

- There does appear to be some significant skim. WKORVN OF will take between 8200 and 11475 to book in DC (probably averaging about 9500 just glancing at the chart values - see picture below).

- Since we are 3* we will be given Executive level in MVC with plat for life (already reported). Our overall portfolio is worth over 9k annualized points based on the actual weeks plus the WFlex. He did say we could buy more WFlex if we wanted to go up a level in DC (this was really the only sale he tried to make).

- I asked if mandatory resale units would convert even if they were not retroed, and he said "yes". The printout he showed us had it listed with the points value along with the value of our account. He said it wasn't worth doing a retro on it since it would be in the system and eligible to convert. He did say pricing would be going up to match MVC in the summer and would be DC points only.

- No clarity on the VSN fee situation. He said it would go up to take into account the new features, but couldn't say by how much or if all other fees would be waived.

I have to head to the pool...will try to post some additional points charts pics I snapped while he was away getting our conversion sheet.

[edited to correct SDO value - from memory though]

 

[pacman777]

- I asked if mandatory resale units would convert even if they were not retroed, and he said "yes". The printout he showed us had it listed with the points value along with the value of our account. He said it wasn't worth doing a retro on it since it would be in the system and eligible to convert. He did say pricing would be going up to match MVC in the summer and would be DC points only.

Wow! This is a surprise if true and interesting a salesperson will even confirm this as it’s definitely not to their benefit. Mandatory resort resale values will definitely increase and get snatched up if this is indeed true.

 

[VacationForever]

... it is contrary to Denise's contact's response.

 

[Eric B]

... it is contrary to Denise's contact's response.

... but consistent with her contact's statement that eligibility is associated with paying a VSN fee....

 

[VacationForever]

... but consistent with her contact's statement that eligibility is associated with paying a VSN fee....

... inconsistent with "resale" cannot convert.

 

[dioxide45]

It seems unlikely to me that Vistana owners would need to pay Club Dues if they enroll their ownership in DC a particular year since all Vistana ownership that would be eligible to do so (according to Denise's contact) are ones that already pay the VSN membership fee. The contact said Vistana membership fees are being raised to MVC levels and transaction fees changed to match MVC's model while Vistana elite members are being given corresponding MVC elite levels. Everything is being set up to encourage easy and instant participation in the DC once a Vistana owner elects for a use year. Telling them to pay double the membership/club dues to participate would have a definite chilling effect on anyone electing DC, and not asking MVC owners do so the same to access Vistana properties could lead to Vistana owners wielding pitchforks and torches as they chase MVC executives around !

What I suspect will happen is you have to make a concerted decision to participate in the program overall. THat means to enroll your week in the DC program. This is a one time event. Then you will start to be charged the higher DC Club Fee (this starts out at $215 per year). That fee will then include and cover all other fees an owner might pay; VSN fee, SO Banking Fee, SO cancellation fees, II exchange fees. I don't expect one to pay both the DC Club Fee AND the VSN fee.

 

[catharsis]

Great points. While we expect Westins in Maui to convert at an excellent rate, we can’t forget about the maint fee per SO ratio. While we can expect that one 2 bedroom in Maui will get more DC points than a 2 bedroom at SVV, the Maint fee for that two bedroom at SVV is less.

The concept of 'MF per DC Point' is being missed in many of the discussions here. For many existing Vistana owners, they get (relatively) poor value when exchanging using SVN as their high-annual-MF weeks is worth the same 148,100 as another resort with much lower MFs. Based upon the post #654 above, the DC conversion will assign different DC Points values to weeks and will ignore SO values entirely. This will likely result in a situation where owners are happy to be getting better 'value' exchanges. This will also interestingly quickly be identified by Vistana owners as being a much cheaper annual ownership offering of DC points than purchasing from MVW. Based upon the figures I've seen the MF/Point annual costs for the flex offerings are much less than Marriott's for DC points (0.62 or thereabouts). I think the new offering is likely to be a big 'plus' for Vistana owners, not for all of them of course, but I think the doomsayers are likely misguided (having been a Marriott doomsayer back in 2010 myself and now seeing what is happening to my Vistana ownership.

For those who own a fixed week, rent it out every year and get great returns, nothing that MVW can do will change your business model and best option, but for many, this will add a very useful option, and I honestly think the valuations (once you add the relatively much lower MFs at Vistana than Marriott) look like being a great deal for Vistana owners.

 

[dioxide45]

Wow! This is a surprise if true and interesting a salesperson will even confirm this as it’s definitely not to their benefit. Mandatory resort resale values will definitely increase and get snatched up if this is indeed true.

We will have to see how it plays out. There seems to perhaps be some interpretation to the instruction they have been given and until we actually see more written details from Marriott in official communication and ability to actually convert to Club Points, we don't really know how it will ultimately work.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

It might make sense for someone (think the average owner) who owns in Hawaii and is willing to travel in October. They will get more Club Points from their week than it would cost to go in October through DC. RIght now in VSN, October costs as much as July.

Good point. But will Hawaii SO to DC exchange be better than locking a 2 bedroom and getting 2 full weeks - one which can be banked and traded the following year into almost any other Vistana with SOs? We have 176,000 Staroptions for our WKORVN.

Can MVC owners deposit half of a lockoff into DC and use the other half?

 

[dioxide45]

- Our WKORVN OF week is worth 8325 points. This is close to what @dioxide45 had guessed they would be worth. Orlando for us isn't great (2625) and our SDO Plat is worth around 4600 (can't recall the exact number).

This seems to indicate that they would line up SDO in a similar Club Point value as WKV. I always thought it was odd that SDO had the same point values and chart as WKV. WKV is far superior and SDO is even a step below Canyon Villas. SDO does have going for it the two 1BR units vs Canyon Villas having a studio+1BR, but still... IMO SDO isn't up to the same level as the other two resorts in the area. This could have been their chance to better align SDO in regard to WKV. From what I understand SDO doesn't even rent for as much as WKV?

 

[SueDonJ]

Good point. But will Hawaii SO to DC exchange be better than locking a 2 bedroom and getting 2 full weeks - one which can be banked and traded the following year into almost any other Vistana with SOs? We have 176,000 Staroptions for our WKORVN.

Can MVC owners deposit half of a lockoff into DC and use the other half?

No. The DC Points value of a lock-off Week is one single value for the entire unit. You can't elect separate DC Points values for each separate component, and you can't use the two separate components in the two separate systems.

 

[SueDonJ]

What I suspect will happen is you have to make a concerted decision to participate in the program overall. THat means to enroll your week in the DC program. This is a one time event. Then you will start to be charged the higher DC Club Fee (this starts out at $215 per year). That fee will then include and cover all other fees an owner might pay; VSN fee, SO Banking Fee, SO cancellation fees, II exchange fees. I don't expect one to pay both the DC Club Fee AND the VSN fee.

Yes, this is what I was trying to get at, that there's an annual fee associated with the Destination Club enrollment that must be paid to continue participation in the program. With Marriott ownerships it's a Club Dues fee over and above the MF's of owned Week(s) and/or purchased Trust Points. With Vistana it sounds like it will continue to be charged as the annual VSN fee, but raised so that there's a differential between owners who choose to enroll for DC membership and those that don't?

 

[dsmrp]

What I suspect will happen is you have to make a concerted decision to participate in the program overall. THat means to enroll your week in the DC program. This is a one time event. Then you will start to be charged the higher DC Club Fee (this starts out at $215 per year). That fee will then include and cover all other fees an owner might pay; VSN fee, SO Banking Fee, SO cancellation fees, II exchange fees. I don't expect one to pay both the DC Club Fee AND the VSN fee.

I agree I wouldn't expect to pay both DC Club and VSN fees, altho' I was afraid that might be a possibility and overlap for this year.
I'm sure there are many others like me who have banked SO's they need to use up. Unfortunately I have too many SOs to bank as well.

The current VSN fee is $215 (for 2 or more VOIs), so comparable to DC Select owner level. So paying more for club fees sounds reasonable & inevitable, as long as the benefits are useful.

 

[jabberwocky]

This seems to indicate that they would line up SDO in a similar Club Point value as WKV. I always thought it was odd that SDO had the same point values and chart as WKV. WKV is far superior and SDO is even a step below Canyon Villas. SDO does have going for it the two 1BR units vs Canyon Villas having a studio+1BR, but still... IMO SDO isn't up to the same level as the other two resorts in the area. This could have been their chance to better align SDO in regard to WKV. From what I understand SDO doesn't even rent for as much as WKV?

Sorry. This is a typo on my part. I think I meant to type 2600. Based on the charts, it will be much cheaper to book a 2BR at SDO vs WKV.

Looking at it more closely, I think they may also be basing in on the actual deeded week in some cases. To me the SVR should not be about the same as the SDO plat; but our SVR is a fixed Christmas week, so perhaps it gets a premium?

 

[daviator]

I just finished our owner's update here at SDO. Very low-key and low-pressure. The salesperson said he couldn't really improve on what we already owned. I've found him to be an honest guy and this is our second time having a presentation with him.

Some interesting points to add:

- The Vistana to DC conversion tool was deployed last night (this is probably what the maintenance notice was about). He said today was the first day they could actually use it to see what the conversion values will be for different ownerships. Owners will be able to see the same thing when the system goes live this summer to convert.

- After I asked about what our portfolio would convert to, he went and got a printout of our portfolio that included all of the exact conversion values. (I wasn't able to get a picture of this as he didn't leave us alone after this - but I have no reason to doubt it is authentic given it was prepared upon request and took about 10 minutes and all the information on our ownerships lined up)

- As I suspected and was confirmed in the other thread conversion values for deeded weeks are based on the actual week, not the number of SO it converts to.

- Our WFlex ownership converts at 28.86:1 (WFlex to DC). This is lower than was reported in the other thread from Denise, so I'm not sure why there is a discrepancy.

- Our WKORVN OF week is worth 8325 points. This is close to what @dioxide45 had guessed they would be worth. Orlando for us isn't great (2625) and our SDO Plat is worth around 4600 (can't recall the exact number).

- There does appear to be some significant skim. WKORVN OF will take between 8200 and 11475 to book in DC (probably averaging about 9500 just glancing at the chart values - see picture below).

- Since we are 3* we will be given Executive level in MVC with plat for life (already reported). Our overall portfolio is worth over 9k annualized points based on the actual weeks plus the WFlex. He did say we could buy more WFlex if we wanted to go up a level in DC (this was really the only sale he tried to make).

- I asked if mandatory resale units would convert even if they were not retroed, and he said "yes". The printout he showed us had it listed with the points value along with the value of our account. He said it wasn't worth doing a retro on it since it would be in the system and eligible to convert. He did say pricing would be going up to match MVC in the summer and would be DC points only.

- No clarity on the VSN fee situation. He said it would go up to take into account the new features, but couldn't say by how much or if all other fees would be waived.

I have to head to the pool...will try to post some additional points charts pics I snapped while he was away getting our conversion sheet.

View attachment 50383

The chart shown really shows the disparity in values between DP and VSN. For example, the 81,000 WF that I own can be used to reserve a 1BR at WKORV/N at any time of the year, except for the two event weeks there. But converted to DP (2808 points) you could not reserve a 1BR at WKORV or WKORVN even at the slowest times of the year and even in a parking lot-view room. Obviously it will continue to be better to use the legacy systems to trade within the Vistana resorts in most cases.

But I can imagine occasionally using those WF points to trade into DP if I wanted to travel someplace where DP had options that didn’t exist in VSN. Most DP resorts are a lot cheaper (less points required) than Maui.

There is an irony here. For years, Vistana sold people on the idea of buying the most SOs at the least cost (both purchase cost and MFs) which is how I ended up first buying into WDW… I already owned at WKORV with its high MFs, they convinced me that WDW was much more bang for the buck. Now the chickens have come home to roost and the lower-MF resorts will (mostly) have lower trading power in DC.

But in my case, it turned out that we like going to WDW and end up going for three weeks most years, so it doesn’t really matter to me if my ownership there won’t convert well to DP, because I’m unlikely to elect to do so.

Will there be some sort of deadline on enrolling in DP? Or will the VSN fee go up too? My inclination would be to not enroll until/unless I actually want to exchange info DP, so maybe years from now. Why pay the higher fee? And if you don’t enroll, do the existing deadlines for banking and electing Bonvoy conversion stay the same, or do they change? What about the waived fees for elite owners? I’m 4* Elite and I think the DP deadlines are less generous than what I already enjoy.

 

[jabberwocky]

Wow! This is a surprise if true and interesting a salesperson will even confirm this as it’s definitely not to their benefit. Mandatory resort resale values will definitely increase and get snatched up if this is indeed true.

I was expecting a hard sell on why we needed to bring our mandatory resale in so that it would convert. So this surprised me.

Perhaps they will grandfather resales in VSN that are owned at the time the system is launched? This would be similar to what they did on the Marriott side when the DC launched. Perhaps new resale mandatory won’t be eligible. Given what Denise’s contact has said, there was some ambiguity on this point for weeks that are in VSN.

 

[VacationForever]

Because there is not a direct correlation of SOs to DC points, I believe that for many of us, whether we elect DC points or not, it depends on how we use our ownership. For instance, for what we own we won't get many DC points, we will continue to use SOs to go to other resorts in VSN in the shoulder season.

 

[jabberwocky]

Here is the points chart for Lagunamar.

 

[jabberwocky]

And one for SVR. They seem to have lined it up pretty closely to the values for Grande Vista. I know there was some speculation as to how the Orlando resort points values would compare to MVC.

 

[wjarcher]

I just finished our owner's update here at SDO. Very low-key and low-pressure. The salesperson said he couldn't really improve on what we already owned. I've found him to be an honest guy and this is our second time having a presentation with him.

Some interesting points to add:

- The Vistana to DC conversion tool was deployed last night (this is probably what the maintenance notice was about). He said today was the first day they could actually use it to see what the conversion values will be for different ownerships. Owners will be able to see the same thing when the system goes live this summer to convert.

- After I asked about what our portfolio would convert to, he went and got a printout of our portfolio that included all of the exact conversion values. (I wasn't able to get a picture of this as he didn't leave us alone after this - but I have no reason to doubt it is authentic given it was prepared upon request and took about 10 minutes and all the information on our ownerships lined up)

- As I suspected and was confirmed in the other thread conversion values for deeded weeks are based on the actual week, not the number of SO it converts to.

- Our WFlex ownership converts at 28.86:1 (WFlex to DC). This is lower than was reported in the other thread from Denise, so I'm not sure why there is a discrepancy.

- Our WKORVN OF week is worth 8325 points. This is close to what @dioxide45 had guessed they would be worth. Orlando for us isn't great (2625) and our SDO Plat is worth around (can't recall the exact number).

- There does appear to be some significant skim. WKORVN OF will take between 8200 and 11475 to book in DC (probably averaging about 9500 just glancing at the chart values - see picture below).

- Since we are 3* we will be given Executive level in MVC with plat for life (already reported). Our overall portfolio is worth over 9k annualized points based on the actual weeks plus the WFlex. He did say we could buy more WFlex if we wanted to go up a level in DC (this was really the only sale he tried to make).

- I asked if mandatory resale units would convert even if they were not retroed, and he said "yes". The printout he showed us had it listed with the points value along with the value of our account. He said it wasn't worth doing a retro on it since it would be in the system and eligible to convert. He did say pricing would be going up to match MVC in the summer and would be DC points only.

- No clarity on the VSN fee situation. He said it would go up to take into account the new features, but couldn't say by how much or if all other fees would be waived.

I have to head to the pool...will try to post some additional points charts pics I snapped while he was away getting our conversion sheet.

[edited to correct SDO value - from memory though]

View attachment 50383

From the points chart, the island view has the same points as the ocean view. Not sure if they will change it later.

Based on the charts, island view might get over 7k points, which will be a great points generator compared with any other Marriott resorts.

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk

 

[wjarcher]

Here is the points chart for Lagunamar. View attachment 50392

Thanks for sharing, it will definitely boost up the lagunamar resale price.

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk

 

[dioxide45]

Sorry. This is a typo on my part. I think I meant to type 2600. Based on the charts, it will be much cheaper to book a 2BR at SDO vs WKV.

Looking at it more closely, I think they may also be basing in on the actual deeded week in some cases. To me the SVR should not be about the same as the SDO plat; but our SVR is a fixed Christmas week, so perhaps it gets a premium?
View attachment 50389View attachment 50390

These charts are how much it is to book a week, not necessarily how much you get when you elect Club Points for your week. I don't really know how they will handle SDO where they have seasons but some people own a 1-52 and others own a Gold+ or Plat+. I suspect they will set a number of points for Gold+ and then Plat+. This is where skim comes in. You only get 2,600 Club Points, but it may cost more or less to book depending on when you want to travel. Want to go during that more expensive time? Use your home resort reservation, want to go during cheaper times? Use Club Points.