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Starwood changed 5* Qualification without notice

StarwoodCanadafan

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Monitoring of this board

Hi again,

I am not concerned that these posts are being read. Everything posted here by me has been with the understanding that they would be read, and that they know who each of us is. I own and run a business. I pride myself in the highest integrity, honesty and loyalty to those who work with me. There are others in my industry who don't. Word of mouth is a tremendously powerful thing. Each potenial customer that you treat unfairly or otherwise are disloyal to comes back many fold. It is customer service A01.

This is such a blatent disregard for you all here, and many others, it does really cause you to be taken back.

Starwood (and I know you are reading this), you have to understand this type of thing will establish give you a permanent and well deserved black mark. It will hurt your future sales. This is beyond question. You should reverse this decision, and give the customers here a window to get to 559 before changing it. You changed without notice, change it back and give 3 months or so notice.

It was changed within an hour or so of my posting, so if we had any doubt that Starwood monitors the boards, there you have it! But I'd already saved a .pdf screenshot of it (along with a timestamp) where it listed the former SOs right there in full living color.

Everyone wave to Starwood!!

:cheer:
 

Joshadelic

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I don't think they're too concerned about their future sales. I'm in the process of trying to do an upgrade and retro and there just aren't that many units available on the developer level. Call them up and ask how many platinum units they have for any property? Not many. If you want to buy a silver season and pay full steam and on top of that pay the same amount of MF's that a person who owns platinum does, then yes, they have something to sell you. The same person who would buy that is the same person who couldn't care less if the 5* level has changed.
 

pointsjunkie

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unfortunatley Tuggers are such a small % of owners, if you look at us we might be all of 25 people.starwood has ten's of thousands owners, we don't have much clout.


how many of you out there were actually on the fence and IF you had 2 months notice would you have coughed up the bucks and become 5*?

it might be 1 or 2 people so in starwood's eyes they didn't even think it was worth it.
 

dss

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The arrogance and sheer ineptitude of how they managed these changes should amaze me, but given their recent track record, it doesn't. I cannot point to a single positive thing they have done in recent years to benefit existing owners. SVN is an organization that time and again shows it only cares about luring in "less educated" customers and doesn't care about truly addressing core issues, both good and bad, with their program, such as the deplorable customer service.

I am a longtime SPG Plat (the hard way) and love the SPG program and the two SVN properties I own at, but I have absolutely decided to make my next purchase a Hyatt due to a variety of reasons, but centered around the disdain SVN has displayed towards their existing customers. They really need to create (or properly staff) a senior management position to serve as a customer evangelist and also assign someone similar to the FT "Lurker(s)" to participate on this board. The SPG Lurker role has been instrumental in both building goodwill with a core evangelical customer base as well as providing SPG with valuable direct marketplace feedback they so they can make better informed decisions about what their top customers really want.

</rant off>
 

LisaRex

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"The note I just got back says: "they are strict with the business rules and you are not alone in having missed the deadline. Please understand that there are Owners that have spent a lot of money purchasing directly from the developer all weeks to get to Elite 5."

And there are also Owners who have spent a lot of money purchasing resale weeks then subsequent developer weeks just to get to Elite 5. In both scenarios, obtaining Elite 5 eventually required at least two developer purchases, which helped achieve what should be their top priority: selling timeshares.

I wonder how many 3 and 4* owners are out there who bought all their weeks from the developer and who had 5* in mind? Unless they find TUG, they won't even realize that the finish line has been moved back another mile until they go to buy what they think is the last piece of the puzzle. Glad I'm not a Starwood salesman. It's difficult enough to move villas in this economy. Now they've put another roadblock up for their own sales team.

Starwood: Quit worrying about things you can't control, such as resales. Because I have news for you: Had I not been able to get an OF property at the price I did on the resale market, I STILL wouldn't have bought from you, because your sales prices is completely and utterly out of whack with reality. $100k + $2k in MFs each year for the right to use a glorified hotel room for one week a year. Are you kidding me?

WaMu just failed, AIG is on the brink of failing, the economy is in the dumpster, and you're worried about people achieving 5* status too cheaply? You should be doing everything you can to ENCOURAGE people to travel and buy timeshares, not alienating your existing customer base.

ARGH!!!!

Do developers in sub-divisions try to control subsequent sales? NO. If you really want to control resales, then you'll have to start exercising the ROFR, and gradually lowering developer prices back down from the stratosphere.
 

SDKath

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It was changed within an hour or so of my posting, so if we had any doubt that Starwood monitors the boards, there you have it! But I'd already saved a .pdf screenshot of it (along with a timestamp) where it listed the former SOs right there in full living color.

Everyone wave to Starwood!!

:cheer:

Yup, they changed the page about 2 minutes after Lisa posted it! Essentially, the ONLY written communication with Elite members (their website) was still saying 559,000 SOs until about 4pm PST yesterday. Sooooooooo...


Nice try. I have that screenshot too, with the time and date stamp, and I plan to use it. :hi:

K
 

James1975NY

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Timeshares - although deeded and sold by licesnsed sales agents (in most cases) should not be compared to residential or general real estate. ROFR is not exclusive to timeshare and is written into many HOA's and Condominiums. Unless the market is extremely hot, no developer is going to buy back. Timeshare will always be a buyers market.

Starwood does not and will not feed off of "less educated" customers. The proof is here on TUG. Granted, there are some that purchase on an emotional level but I would say that 80% of all timeshare owners purchased their first week on an emotions and there is nothing wrong with purchasing Starwood on an emotional level. There are a handful of developers that I can think of in the Orlando area that will misguide, misinform and then sell a customer something that is just pure garbage. You should feel lucky that you are an owner of a very strong program.

Going to buy Hyatt on the resale? Great....Hyatt is a great program too. Remember, try not to buy emotionally....sounds like you may be doing so out of spite. I have a lot of customers that by Hyatt for their Key West resorts because they are fantastic. Hyatt's club is a bit different than Starwood's so make sure your knowledge base is there before purchasing.
 

clsmit

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Let us remember Starwood's Company Values

We succeed only when we meet and
exceed the expectations of our customers,
owners and shareholders. We have a passion for
excellence
and will deliver the highest
standards of integrity and fairness. We celebrate
the diversity of people, ideas and cultures.
We honor the dignity and value of
individuals
working as a team. We improve the
communities in which we work.
We encourage innovation, accept
accountability and embrace change.
We seek knowledge and growth through learning.
We share a sense of urgency, nimbleness
and endeavor to have fun too.​

http://www.starwoodhotels.com/corporate/company_values.html The bolds are from Starwood, not me.

Hi Starwood! :wave: With this one you're not meeting your company values. That's not good. I'm one of the people on this site with the ability and eventual desire to get to 5*, and had we known that the option requirements were changing we would have called to work on getting there sooner rather than later. Now I'm not so sure what we're going to do. We might buy a developer unit or 2 to get to 5*, or we might just stay on the resale market. But we're certainly thinking a bit harder about it.
 

tomandrobin

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Going to buy Hyatt on the resale? Great....Hyatt is a great program too. Remember, try not to buy emotionally....sounds like you may be doing so out of spite. I have a lot of customers that by Hyatt for their Key West resorts because they are fantastic. Hyatt's club is a bit different than Starwood's so make sure your knowledge base is there before purchasing.

I will agree with this statement. All timeshare systems have there pluses and minuses. Does Hyatt have the resorts you want? One of the reasons we own Starwood is the resorts, not 5* elite. We love our HRA, WSJ, and WKV units. We are looking forward to traveling to WLR. We leave in two weeks for WKORV.

Last time I checked, Hyatt was severly lacking compatible resorts, in comparable locations.
 

StarwoodCanadafan

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What does this have to do with the posts on this thread?

It is a question of running a program with integrity, and consideration for your client base. Feel lucky? How does that relate to this topic? We aren't questioning the quality of the product, just the management of the program.



Timeshares - although deeded and sold by licesnsed sales agents (in most cases) should not be compared to residential or general real estate. ROFR is not exclusive to timeshare and is written into many HOA's and Condominiums. Unless the market is extremely hot, no developer is going to buy back. Timeshare will always be a buyers market.

Starwood does not and will not feed off of "less educated" customers. The proof is here on TUG. Granted, there are some that purchase on an emotional level but I would say that 80% of all timeshare owners purchased their first week on an emotions and there is nothing wrong with purchasing Starwood on an emotional level. There are a handful of developers that I can think of in the Orlando area that will misguide, misinform and then sell a customer something that is just pure garbage. You should feel lucky that you are an owner of a very strong program.

Going to buy Hyatt on the resale? Great....Hyatt is a great program too. Remember, try not to buy emotionally....sounds like you may be doing so out of spite. I have a lot of customers that by Hyatt for their Key West resorts because they are fantastic. Hyatt's club is a bit different than Starwood's so make sure your knowledge base is there before purchasing.
 

LisaRex

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I mention ROFR only in the sense that Starwood seems to be overly concerned with trying to control the resale market. That is the only reason they convoluted the waters by inserting a poison pill into resales of their new resorts. We call them Voluntary Resorts.

Instead of focusing on trying to inhibit resales, I think they should focus on doing things to promote purchasing from the developer. The major thing they can do right away is to exercise RoFR more often so that resale prices don't get too far removed from the current developer price. Right now the gap at WKORV is profound. And it's incredibly difficult to justify spending 30 to 50 THOUSAND extra dollars for one lousy benefit, which is the ability to trade within SVN.

It might be less difficult if they focused on sweetening their elite program so that people would be more tempted to buy from the developer. They could offer incentives that are only given to developer purchased owners. Here are some examples of programs they could introduce relatively cheaply:

Throw in StarPoints each year as a thank you to owners who buy from the developer (e.g. 25k for single owners, 50k for double owners, etc.)
Offer 25 or 30% off subsequent purchases.
Offer reduced rates for folks wanting to add a day on the end of their stay. Free breakfast one morning
Free Lava Flow each night.
Additional packets of laundry detergent upon request
The announcement of special promos prior to extending them to non-elite owners.
Offer PFL memberships only to people who buy exclusively from the developer

For heaven's sake, instead of this constant barrage of negative news, they should do SOMETHING to make owners feel valued and special. Increase the warm and fuzzies so people feel GOOD about owning with Starwood instead of feeling like a chump. I think they'd be amazed how little things add up.
 

luv_maui

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Congrats to Jarta on making 5* with the retroing and EOY purchases!

I am still sad sometimes that with our $45,000 purchase so long ago, the 3-5* levels had never been "invented" by Starwood, and therefore we never knew that such a level of service was possible. If we had not purchased then, we could have achieved 5* by buying two resales and two developer weeks for about the same price.

Oh well. Since we don't have a crystal ball, who could have known? Ya think there would be some perk for folks who bought early at full freight....

Some of the early purchasers at WKORV (we bought but later rescinded) also received an original art piece rendition of WKORV. If we had only not rescinded then we would own this art piece - certainly not worth developer prices but just wanted to mention one of the early incentives (in addition to the star point incentive of course).
 

DeniseM

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For heaven's sake, instead of this constant barrage of negative news, they should do SOMETHING to make owners feel valued and special. Increase the warm and fuzzies so people feel GOOD about owning with Starwood instead of feeling like a chump. I think they'd be amazed how little things add up.

But Lisa - what about the luggage tags? Now that was special! (And I didn't get one!) :D

I think they should offer discounted airfare/car rental packages to make it a little easier to get to Hawaii and I like the other idea of discounted rental nights before or after your regular week. The current owner discounted rate for a studio is still about $300 a night! :eek:

Oh - And I got a nice coffee table book about Maui when we bought at the WKORV - certainly worth the $20k difference between resale and developer pricing! :D
 

Denise L

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I couldn't find anywhere on my luggage tag to actually put my name. AND, the thing weighs a ton :( . Given today's luggage restrictions, we can't afford to bring luggage, let alone heavy luggage tags :eek: .

I didn't get a coffee table book :( , and we bought over the phone, site unseen. I did like the sushi dishes, and the wine holder, calendars and reef fish laminated cards that were owner gifts in the early years. Two years of bags and hats/visors is enough. Is there a new gift yet?!

What I do know is that we bought exactly what we wanted (at the time) and absolutely love the beach at WKORV :whoopie: for kid fun and awesome snorkeling. I hope our hefty maintenance fees keep the property and villas looking great for years and years to come.
 

James1975NY

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I mention ROFR only in the sense that Starwood seems to be overly concerned with trying to control the resale market. That is the only reason they convoluted the waters by inserting a poison pill into resales of their new resorts. We call them Voluntary Resorts.

Instead of focusing on trying to inhibit resales, I think they should focus on doing things to promote purchasing from the developer. The major thing they can do right away is to exercise RoFR more often so that resale prices don't get too far removed from the current developer price. Right now the gap at WKORV is profound. And it's incredibly difficult to justify spending 30 to 50 THOUSAND extra dollars for one lousy benefit, which is the ability to trade within SVN.

It might be less difficult if they focused on sweetening their elite program so that people would be more tempted to buy from the developer. They could offer incentives that are only given to developer purchased owners. Here are some examples of programs they could introduce relatively cheaply:

Throw in StarPoints each year as a thank you to owners who buy from the developer (e.g. 25k for single owners, 50k for double owners, etc.)
Offer 25 or 30% off subsequent purchases.
Offer reduced rates for folks wanting to add a day on the end of their stay. Free breakfast one morning
Free Lava Flow each night.
Additional packets of laundry detergent upon request
The announcement of special promos prior to extending them to non-elite owners.
Offer PFL memberships only to people who buy exclusively from the developer

For heaven's sake, instead of this constant barrage of negative news, they should do SOMETHING to make owners feel valued and special. Increase the warm and fuzzies so people feel GOOD about owning with Starwood instead of feeling like a chump. I think they'd be amazed how little things add up.

I understand where you are coming from ~ I really do. Remember, nothing comes free and somewhere along the line, the owners are going to pay for it. Who paid for the incentive StarPoints when you purchased? You did.

I feel as though the negative news is a direct result of their decreased sales. SVO is down 29% in sales this year. I'm not sure this is a time to give away freebees. Enhancing the program - YES!!!!

Discounts on purchases - ABSOLUTELY!

Additional Packets of Laundry - Sure. Especially considering how travellers are reducing their luggage size to avoid travel costs - again, this tab will be picked up by the owners.

Discounted Rates - I understood that these already existed.

Announcements on Promos - Should be easy ;o)

I personally like the idea of being able to carry over StarOptions into future use years. Of course, these additional StarOptions would be restricted to a 90-day use period (similar to borrowing).

How about improving service? Since "superior" service is already being paid for and promised (Mission statement), why not ensure that it is given?

Lets put it this way, things are tight. There are ways to make owners feel like warm and fuzzy and well taken care of but I am not sure asking for freebies is the answer.
 

dss

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Sorry, but I think the core of the outrage isn't the change itself but the way the change was communicated (or lack thereof). While it's a dramatically unpopular move (to most, I bet some SPG Plats are happy about this actually), it is within their right to make that change.
Not properly warning people or allowing a grace period, or even TELLING people about this change until after the fact is symbolic of the way SVN has botched it's relationship with it's customers. At a minimum it shows a company that is highly dysfunctional and to some such as myself, it illustrates an overall arrogance that permeates everything they do. Their marketing and communication to their customers has a glossy sheen on it that lacks any connection to the real issues and concerns we have raised time and time again. This "blue sky" approach might work for developer sales but it's an awful excuse for customer service to your existing clients (who I might add are also your best prospects in most businesses).

James - As for your comment about choosing Hyatt for my next purchase, thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt, but I have spent years researching the system and as I said in my post, I am choosing them for a variety of factors, spite not being even on the radar screen (do you seriously think someone is going to spend over $20k out of spite???). I am purchasing largely because they have two resorts within driving distance of the Bay Area (Tahoe and Carmel). Hyatt's outstanding customer service certainly makes the decision easier to justify for me. Nothing would make me happier than to be able to continue to invest with SVN but their abysmal customer service and communication practices is one of many reasons they won't be getting any more of my business (and as I said, I am a longstanding SPG Plat so I continue to patronize their hotels almost weekly).
 
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James1975NY

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Sorry, but I think the core of the outrage isn't the change itself but the way the change was communicated (or lack thereof). While it's a dramatically unpopular move (to most, I bet some SPG Plats are happy about this actually), it is within their right to make that change.
Not properly warning people or allowing a grace period, or even TELLING people about this change until after the fact is symbolic of the way SVN has botched it's relationship with it's customers. At a minimum it shows a company that is highly dysfunctional and to some such as myself, it illustrates an overall arrogance that permeates everything they do. Their marketing and communication to their customers has a glossy sheen on it that lacks any connection to the real issues and concerns we have raised time and time again. This "blue sky" approach might work for developer sales but it's an awful excuse for customer service to your existing clients (who I might add are also your best prospects in most businesses).

James - As for your comment about choosing Hyatt for my next purchase, thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt, but I have spent years researching the system and as I said in my post, I am choosing them for a variety of factors, spite not being even on the radar screen (do you seriously think someone is going to spend over $20k out of spite???). I am purchasing largely because they have two resorts within driving distance of the Bay Area (Tahoe and Carmel). Hyatt's outstanding customer service certainly makes the decision easier to justify for me. Nothing would make me happier than to be able to continue to invest with SVN but their abysmal customer service and communication practices is one of many reasons they won't be getting any more of my business (and as I said, I am a longstanding SPG Plat so I continue to patronize their hotels almost weekly).


So you have see first hand how the program works and the flexibility or ease of use? No need to get upset....you would be surprised what people would do out of spite.

Word of advice for you when buying Hyatt.....buy at a location that you would like to go and make sure the week that you buy is one that you would use.

Enjoy!
 

Cathyb

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Without further adooooo, I stand my earlier grounds that SW is only interested in the bottom profit line, not its owners. Sorry.....
 

Cathyb

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westin5star" think about it -- do they really care? they have their money from you........
 
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SDKath

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I agree with dss. Remember, the change actually WAS NOT communicated. As of yesterday, almost a week later, the only source of news and info for Elite members, the Elite website, still said it only takes 559,000 SOs to be 5*.

So unless you read TUG religiously (which 95% of owners don't I bet) or you HAPPEN to be calling Elite services to ask what the 5* requirement is, there is NO WAY you would have known! I happen to speak to elite services 3x this week to make reservations for 2009 and not once did I hear ANYTHING said about this key change in the rules. No message on the phone (you know, like those irritating Am Ex ads you listen to while on hold) and no rep telling me anything about it.

That is total BS. No offense but you really just CAN'T do that!

Katherine
 

oneohana

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Starwood can and will make any changes they want. I know it is not fair, but that's just the way they run their business.

All my eggs are in the Starwood basket. I'm just making the best omlettes I can. Hopefully they won't get burnt.
 

SDKath

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Starwood can and will make any changes they want. I know it is not fair, but that's just the way they run their business.

All my eggs are in the Starwood basket. I'm just making the best omlettes I can. Hopefully they won't get burnt.

Making a change without any notification and displaying the incorrect, old info on their only website is actually considered FALSE ADVERTISING. It can be misconstrued as melicious sales tactic. (You know, to lead people into thinking they will be 5* and have them sign the contarct only to find out that they "forgot" to mention that the rules changed a day or two ago and "forgot" conveniently to update their website).

There are lots of laws against that to protect consumers....

K
 

Ken555

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ROFR is not exclusive to timeshare and is written into many HOA's and Condominiums.

While ROFR's may be used in other situations and for other real property, it is most commonly used in timeshares, to the best of my knowledge. For all the properties I've almost bought, and have bought, I've never run across a ROFR other than in timeshare. Perhaps its use in California is more restrictive than other States (I don't know - but I've not seen it in Florida either, on the properties I almost bought in the last 10 years).

It would be nice to see examples that ROFR is a common event included in many real estate transactions. Do you have any websites of condos or HOA's which show their ROFR policy? (Anyone else run into this issue?) If so, please share them here. If not, then please qualify your remarks. I think it's natural for us to be cautious of any comments on a public forum without personal knowledge of the individual behind the statement or their agenda.

FWIW, I'm very curious to see what other HOAs do in this area. I'd like to know how an HOA is formed that has the resources to buy real estate from its members in order to sell it for a profit (presumably). This really sounds more like a builder / developer policy, and is somewhat contrary to what the HOA exists to do.
 
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