Starwood changed 5* Qualification without notice

[James1975NY]

Thanks for your insight, James!

And how many oranges did Starwood give you... just curious. :hysterical:

That was good

 

[James1975NY]

I agree that given SVO’s actions to date, putting any faith in the elite program’s current list of benefits or even its continued existence is a fools’ folly. But the larger issue here is how can SVO continue to market a bundle of extra-benefits to induce sales, and then within months, and in some cases days, just up and cancel them with impunity when some people are even mid-stream in the process?

I think your right, someone somewhere in SVO decided to up the StarOption requirement to make 5 Star Elite for reasons that probably weren’t aimed at harming us existing owners (except maybe SDKath to get her back for publishing her 5 Star methods here on TUG ). I also think it is also fair to say that that decision wasn’t made the exact same day that it was implemented across the board in the sales offices. The delay from deciding to up the StarOption requirement to actually implementing the new requirement probably means that someone, somewhere in at least one of the SVO sales offices was told of the old StarOption requirement as an inducement to get them to buy, and they actually did buy based on that representation, even though SVO collectively “knew” that representation was false when it was made.

Who cares you ask? Well, the law does. Intentionally promising someone something as an inducement to get them to do something with knowledge that the promised thing isn’t true are the three biggest fingers of the five fingers of FRAUD. (The remaining 2 fingers, --buyer is deceived, and injury results-- are certainly also present here). With knowledge of SVO’s top management being imputed to SVO and the actions of the SVO salesmen being imputed to SVO, SVO’s continued sales of developer timeshares after it made the decision to up the StarOption requirement but before actually implementing it, while also remaining silent to this issue to its customers amounts to gold ‘ol American Fraud. As an added bonus, in some jurisdictions such corporate activity can also be considered a criminal act, with the corporate officers of the wrong doer corporation facing good ‘ol American jail time and a good ‘ol American criminal conviction on their record to boot.

Of course, this whole issue could have been easily avoided if SVO just gave folks reasonable notice before changing the plan. Since it didn’t, we owners have every right to be mad at SVO management, and SVO management has every right to hope that when their doorbell rings it isn’t a process server.

I agree that keeping customers happy is a tough job. Employee awards are nice and all, but that customer service job should start by at least not committing fraud against ANY of your customers, even if the number defrauded is less than 0.00000000000000005%. By the same token, if SVO didn’t commit fraud, maybe its customers would be happier and not complain so much. There could be a chicken/egg thing going on here.

Regarding the SVO Management conflict issue:

I think in this case, the company’s best interest is to keep its owners happy so we can all be little ambassadors of good will and get people, including ourselves, to buy more timeshares from the company. This parallels us owner’s interests’ nicely.

In contrast, SVO’s top management’s interest is to keep their salaries while maintaining complete control over the entire operation, even if they are not qualified for a particular role and even if that control compromises the best interests of the company and/or us owners. The conflict isn’t with the company and us, but with the SVO top management’s personal interests and us. But for us being a captive audience, this type of conflict could not last very long. But we are, so it does.

If anyone thinks that anything I’ve said here is BS, please point out the specific point or fact and I’ll be happy to link you to the appropriate authority. Otherwise, just globally calling something BS, is, well, BS.

-nodge

Still wondering:

Nodge....how many developers (publicly traded) are performing and delivering to your expectations? Not antagonizing you...I am honestly curious.

 

[nodge]

Still wondering:

Nodge....how many developers (publicly traded) are performing and delivering to your expectations? Not antagonizing you...I am honestly curious.

Fair enough.

My only source for publically-traded developer personal experience is SVO. I've been a customer of non-publically traded developers. With the exception of SVO, those non-publically traded developers all tended to return phone calls, answer questions when asked, and do what they said they would do without changing the rules midstream. They also played a lot of golf.

Then again, none of those developers had the task of also running a sustaining service oriented business after they built it. Rather, the sustaining task was handled by homeowners associations and/or a separate management company that is completely separate from the developer side of things. Unlike SVO, these HOA’s/management companies were either made up of owners and/or trained professionals in the customer service industry, and they were all somehow able to maintain properties within their respective developments for much, much, much cheaper than SVO appears to be able to do it for its properties.

My primary issue with SVO isn’t about the developers themselves. They sure know how to build and maintain nice resorts in nice locations. It’s just that with SVO’s parent company being in the hotel business and all, and chocked full of hotel service people that know how to run a hotel service industry and all, and having every bell and whistle in reservation systems and all, and an outstanding reputation for dealing with us whinny customers, etc., and all, why does SVO maintain its own archaic service system completely separate from any input, help, or suggestion from Starwood’s hotel division? More importantly, when SVO is selling timeshares, why doesn’t it tell potential customers about this distinction in service?

I’m sure you and your department gave excellent customer service with the resources you were provided. But SVO is representing to us owners and potential owners that those resources are on the order of a Westin or Sheraton hotel experience, which you are well aware from your experience trying to implement the on-line reservation system at SVO over your years there, simply isn’t so.

I think part of our job here on TUG is to inform potential SVO owners of these issues so they can make a more informed purchasing decision. Of course, if SVO were to step up to the plate and actually improve its level of services, we’d be more than happy to let folks know about those changes too.

-nodge

 

[James1975NY]

Fair enough.

My only source for publically-traded developer personal experience is SVO. I've been a customer of non-publically traded developers. With the exception of SVO, those non-publically traded developers all tended to return phone calls, answer questions when asked, and do what they said they would do without changing the rules midstream. They also played a lot of golf.

Then again, none of those developers had the task of also running a sustaining service oriented business after they built it. Rather, the sustaining task was handled by homeowners associations and/or a separate management company that is completely separate from the developer side of things. Unlike SVO, these HOA’s/management companies were either made up of owners and/or trained professionals in the customer service industry, and they were all somehow able to maintain properties within their respective developments for much, much, much cheaper than SVO appears to be able to do it for its properties.

My primary issue with SVO isn’t about the developers themselves. They sure know how to build and maintain nice resorts in nice locations. It’s just that with SVO’s parent company being in the hotel business and all, and chocked full of hotel service people that know how to run a hotel service industry and all, and having every bell and whistle in reservation systems and all, and an outstanding reputation for dealing with us whinny customers, etc., and all, why does SVO maintain its own archaic service system completely separate from any input, help, or suggestion from Starwood’s hotel division? More importantly, when SVO is selling timeshares, why doesn’t it tell potential customers about this distinction in service?

I’m sure you and your department gave excellent customer service with the resources you were provided. But SVO is representing to us owners and potential owners that those resources are on the order of a Westin or Sheraton hotel experience, which you are well aware from you experience trying to implement the on-line reservation system at SVO over your years there, simply isn’t so.

I think part of our job here on TUG is to inform potential SVO owners of these issues so they can make a more informed purchasing decision. Of course, if SVO were to step up to the plate and actually improve is level of services, we’d be more than happy to let folks know about those changes too.

-nodge

Care to share the names of the non-publicly traded resorts/developers?

 

[nodge]

Care to share the names of the non-publicly traded resorts/developers?

Are you looking for a new job? You'd have to move to Oregon, but I'd be happy to put you in touch with 'em.

Why does what I'm saying -- return phone calls, answer questions, fully inform customers and potential customers, stop screwing owners -- seem so unreasonable?

-nodge

 

[James1975NY]

Are you looking for a new job? You'd have to move to Oregon, but I'd be happy to put you in touch with 'em.

Why does what I'm saying -- return phone calls, answer questions, fully inform customers and potential customers, stop screwing owners -- seem so unreasonable?

-nodge

Nothing unreasonable about it! Not looking for a new Job....I am more than content in doing what I do today. I have one of those rare jobs that not only do I leave the work at the office, I can bring a lot of fun into the office. I also happen to make money doing it. Its amazing!

 

[Troopers]

I agree that given SVO’s actions to date, putting any faith in the elite program’s current list of benefits or even its continued existence is a fools’ folly. But the larger issue here is how can SVO continue to market a bundle of extra-benefits to induce sales, and then within months, and in some cases days, just up and cancel them with impunity when some people are even mid-stream in the process?

I think your right, someone somewhere in SVO decided to up the StarOption requirement to make 5 Star Elite for reasons that probably weren’t aimed at harming us existing owners (except maybe SDKath to get her back for publishing her 5 Star methods here on TUG ). I think it is also fair to say that that decision wasn’t made the exact same day that it was implemented across the board in the sales offices. The delay from deciding to up the StarOption requirement to actually implementing the new requirement probably means that someone, somewhere in at least one of the SVO sales offices was told of the old StarOption requirement as an inducement to get them to buy, and they actually did buy based on that representation, even though SVO collectively “knew” that representation was false when it was made.

Who cares you ask? Well, the law does. Intentionally promising someone something as an inducement to get them to do something with knowledge that the promised thing isn’t true are the three biggest fingers of the five fingers of FRAUD. (The remaining 2 fingers, --buyer is deceived, and injury results-- are certainly also present here). With knowledge of SVO’s top management being imputed to SVO and the actions of the SVO salesmen being imputed to SVO, SVO’s continued sales of developer timeshares after it made the decision to up the StarOption requirement but before actually implementing it, while also remaining silent to this issue to its customers amounts to good ‘ol American Fraud. As an added bonus, in some jurisdictions such corporate activity can also be considered a criminal act, with the corporate officers of the wrong doer corporation facing good ‘ol American jail time and a good ‘ol American criminal conviction on their record to boot.

Of course, this whole issue could have been easily avoided if SVO just gave folks reasonable notice before changing the plan. Since it didn’t, we owners have every right to be mad at SVO management, and SVO management has every right to hope that when their doorbell rings it isn’t a process server.

I agree that keeping customers happy is a tough job. Employee awards are nice and all, but that customer service job should start by at least not committing fraud against ANY of your customers, even if the number defrauded is less than 0.00000000000000005%. By the same token, if SVO didn’t commit fraud, maybe its customers would be happier and not complain so much. There could be a chicken/egg thing going on here.

Regarding the SVO Management conflict issue:

I think in this case, the company’s best interest is to keep its owners happy so we can all be little ambassadors of good will and get people, including ourselves, to buy more timeshares from the company. This parallels us owner’s interests’ nicely.

In contrast, SVO’s top management’s interest is to keep their salaries while maintaining complete control over the entire operation, even if they are not qualified for a particular role and even if that control compromises the best interests of the company and/or us owners. The conflict isn’t with the company and us, but with the SVO top management’s personal interests and us. But for us being a captive audience, this type of conflict could not last very long. But we are, so it does.

If anyone thinks that anything I’ve said here is BS, please point out the specific point or fact and I’ll be happy to link you to the appropriate authority. Otherwise, just globally calling something BS, is, well, BS.

-nodge

Thanks for the response. Although I do not completely agree with all your comments, I do understand and do appreciate it. No need to continue the dialogue.

As for the BS comment, it wasn't directed to you....my apologizes if it came across that way. A pitfall of forum is spreading of incorrection information, which becomes the truth when constantly repeated.

 

[Troopers]

Care to share the names of the non-publicly traded resorts/developers?

Please do share. I'm interested.

 

[nodge]

Please do share. I'm interested.

Why on earth would anyone be interested in learning what other real estate developers I've dealt with? What'cha got in exchange for that useless info?

I will say for free that during the real estate and cheap & plentiful credit boom, I did hop on the bandwagon and buy at least one full ownership vacation interest here in sunny Oregon. In that process, I also didn't buy anything from other developers in the area after getting pretty close to doing a deal with some of them. None of those developers failed to return calls or not promptly answer any questions I had, but some of them did call me from the golf course with answers.

-nodge

 

[Troopers]

Why on earth would anyone be interested in learning what other real estate developers I've dealt with? What'cha got in exchange for that useless info?

I'm in the business. I have some dirty secrets. And yes, lots of golf .

 

[stevens397]

Hey James - I didn't know you were also a dentist!

 

[Sea Six]

Elite Level StarOptions Increase

I was at Vistana Villages today, and the sales people were telling me the required number of StarOptions for Elite status levels was increasing by 200,000 points effective 11/1/08. In other words, today you would be a 3* Elite with 159,000 StarOptions, but as of tomorrow 11/1, you would need 359,000 Options. They were also saying that the Sheraton units were expected to sell out by 12/31, and that all new units at the new resorts under the Westin name would be starting at prices in the $59,000 per unit week range. Quite a surprise to me, anyone else hearing this stuff?

 

[clsmit]

Not a surprise given the recent 5* change, but if what is now 4* becomes the level for 3*, then what happens with the other levels?

 

[Sea Six]

5* jumps from 649,000 to 849,000 and 4* jumps from 359,000 to 559,000.

 

[pointsjunkie]

just spoke to starwood elite services and 3 & 4* are NOT going up. the only one that went up is 5 *.

again the sales person was talking out of his ---!!!!

 

[Bill4728]

I was at Vistana Villages today, and the sales people were telling me the required number of StarOptions for Elite status levels was increasing by 200,000 points effective 11/1/08. In other words, today you would be a 3* Elite with 159,000 StarOptions, but as of tomorrow 11/1, you would need 359,000 Options. They were also saying that the Sheraton units were expected to sell out by 12/31, and that all new units at the new resorts under the Westin name would be starting at prices in the $59,000 per unit week range. Quite a surprise to me, anyone else hearing this stuff?

In this economy , that is almost impossible to believe!! VV isn't sold out but some of the older phases are sold out.

 

[SDKath]

Nothing in Vistana is sold out nor will it be in the coming years. They are starting to sell Falls and Springs now for $19500 with first use year 2010 since the renovations are happening in 2009. Then Spas and Palms come after that. What the heck was this salesperson saying???? They have thousands of units to try to sell in this market.

Completely ignore it all.

Katherine

 

[myip]

5* jumps from 649,000 to 849,000 and 4* jumps from 359,000 to 559,000.

Wow... they changes from 559K to 649K and now 849K... SVO is so quick with the changes...

 

[lars158]

just spoke to starwood elite services and 3 & 4* are NOT going up. the only one that went up is 5 *.

again the sales person was talking out of his ---!!!!

Did they confirm that 5* Elite now require 849,000 StarOptions??

 

[Sea Six]

He had a chart in his office that showed
3* 159,000
4* 359,000
5* 649,000

and said everything was going up 200,000 points on 11/1. Maybe he just meant 3* and 4*??

 

[Sea Six]

Nothing in Vistana is sold out nor will it be in the coming years. They are starting to sell Falls and Springs now for $19500 with first use year 2010 since the renovations are happening in 2009. Then Spas and Palms come after that. What the heck was this salesperson saying???? They have thousands of units to try to sell in this market.

Completely ignore it all.

Katherine

He did mention selling Falls and Springs. I think the sell-out was referring to new units at Vistana Villages under Sheraton, and that all the new resorts would be Westin, and start at $59,000.

 

[pointsjunkie]

today is the day that the amount of staroptions to achieve 3 and 4* are rumored to go up and just called starwood and they are NOT going up.