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Starwood changed 5* Qualification without notice

DeniseM

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Thanks David, I didn't phrase that very well. I should have said, if #4 is a new rule, how does it change the rules about resales and Elite Status? Or is it the same rule but now they are documenting it in writing?
 

tomandrobin

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SVN is a bureaucratic mess. We know this. They don't care about their customers post-sale. That's why I'm very pleased with my resale purchases - which I consider (even at today's prices) a 'value' buy.

We are extremely happy with our Starwood purchases, both resale and developer direct purchases. Starwood has top quality resorts, at high demand destinations....not many other timeshare companies can match Starwood's portfolio of resorts in quality and destination. And even though the SVN system is not perfect, it still works better then most others.

For example, Marriott allows you to book at 12 months out. But if you are a multi-week owner, you book 12 months plus the number of extra weeks you own at a resort. This allows multi-week owners to snag all the best weeks at the resorts. There is no internal exchanging system. If you want a week at a non-home marriott resort, you have to go to II and get an exchange.

I admit that I'm partly hopeful that SVN gets in some serious financial trouble and ends up being bought by another player. It can't really get any worse for new buyers. Then again, I'm happy with the way it is - it's the new buyers or those of you buying direct/requalifying that have all the trouble. You've got my sympathy.

Beware what you wish for........

I can not imagine Starwood being rolled into Worldmark or Bluegreen systems! You think its hard getting into Harborside now, after a transfer of ownership there might not exist the SVN system or 3 day priority period in II.

I too feel really bad for everyone cuaght in the middle of the change in rules. I really think Starwood really dropped the ball on the change without advance notice to owners. Even after the fact, I have not seen an official announcement on MSC or a statement in one of our almost daily Starwood emails/advertisements.
 

LisaRex

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Thanks David, I didn't phrase that very well. I should have said, if #4 is a new rule, how does it change the rules about resales and Elite Status? Or is it the same rule but now they are documenting it in writing?

I'm not even sure these are new rules and/or that they hadn't posted them before. When I first gained access to MSC.com, I wasn't taking screen shots of things to compare for when Starwood changed the rules overnight. It might be a good idea to start doing that now, though, so that we might be able to catch things before someone gets burned.

What I found interesting is that only authorized SVN resorts can offer elite status... what in the world does that mean?

Since there was no official rules that I'm aware of regarding requalifications, SVO may have already closed this loop without making anyone aware of it. Only those who tried to requalify would know for sure. But given the rules, it's even more important that (as David says), get a clause that the requalified unit qualifies for Elite status in writing.
 

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The hotel division and the TS division of Starwood are two completely separate entities. Starwood Lurker has no connection to the TS side.

I know that but at least Starwood Lurker may be able to do something about it. At least Lurker will read and respond. Maybe Lurker can pick up the phone or chat with SVO over lunch. Maybe Lurker can simply mention it to his higherups. It's not impossible that Lurker can't help. Anyways, my suggestion to CanadaFan.
 

StarwoodCanadafan

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I agree Denise..

R Chen, this is exactly about customer consideration.

What customer consideration? Please give an example! :confused:

Have you read the other posts in this thread? This is not just a matter of some customers not being satisfied - most of the Starwood owners on TUG are NOT happy with Starwood Mgmt.
 

Troopers

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What customer consideration? Please give an example! :confused:

Have you read the other posts in this thread? This is not just a matter of some customers not being satisfied - most of the Starwood owners on TUG are NOT happy with Starwood Mgmt.

I do not equate Tuggers being not satisfied/happy = Starwood lacks customer consideration. There are lots of frequent flyers very unsatsified/unhappy with airlines now, does this mean that the airlines lack customer satisfacation? Most people are unhappy with the government now, does this mean they don't care about their citizens?

I bet if you were able to poll ALL Starwood owners, most of them would be satisfied. Decisions made by Starwood need to accomodate the majority of ALL customers. They know that there will always be a small percentage that will be unhappy about any decision. Tuggers are the most informed customers and thus, the most critical customers but we're also few among thousands.

I do think SVO management's could be better. There's no excuse for their poor rollout and lack of communication.
 
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Troopers

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Sent a note earlier this month to them...

Keep pestering. Make it an issue on Flyertalk. Get other Flyertalk'ers to get involved. Starwood hotel has been great in that respect...they actually have company representation in a "public" forum where people can say what they want to say and get a company response. Very few companies can say that.
 

StarwoodCanadafan

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Hi R Chen..

While it may be true that your equation is not true, you go on to confuse the point below.

Here is what is likely true.
1. There are a number of satisfied Starwood owners.
2. There are number of Starwood unsatisfied owners
3. Starwood has no shown customer consideration on a number of fronts, which is painfully evident to most Tuggers


What does "Decisions made by Starwood need to accomodate the majority of ALL customers" have anything to do with customer consideration, or the issue du jour? They can still make decisions which need to accomodate all customers and still show very poor customer consideration on how is is rolled out.


I do not equate Tuggers being not satisfied/happy = Starwood lacks customer consideration. There are lots of frequent flyers very unsatsified/unhappy with airlines now, does this mean that the airlines lack customer satisfacation? Most people are unhappy with the government now, does this mean they don't care about their citizens?

I bet if you were able to poll ALL Starwood owners, most of them would be satisfied. Decisions made by Starwood need to accomodate the majority of ALL customers. They know that there will always be a small percentage that will be unhappy about any decision. Tuggers are the most informed customers and thus, the most critical customers but we're also few among thousands.

I do think SVO management . There's no excuse for their poor rollout and lack of communication.
 

StarwoodCanadafan

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Thanks for your suggestion..

I will take your suggestion !

Keep pestering. Make it an issue on Flyertalk. Get other Flyertalk'ers to get involved. Starwood hotel has been great in that respect...they actually have company representation in a "public" forum where people can say what they want to say and get a company response. Very few companies can say that.
 

Fredm

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For example, Marriott allows you to book at 12 months out. But if you are a multi-week owner, you book 12 months plus the number of extra weeks you own at a resort. This allows multi-week owners to snag all the best weeks at the resorts. There is no internal exchanging system. If you want a week at a non-home marriott resort, you have to go to II and get an exchange.



TomandRobin, not quite so.
Marriott reserves 50% of inventory for multiple week owners to book at 13 months for consecutive or concurrent week reservations. Multiple week owners don't get to "snag" the best weeks at the expense of single week owners. In a floating week system they do have the opportunity to be assured of consecutive week reservations for their multiple weeks ownership

The fact that I.I. is the exchange mechanism does not change the internal preference given to the Marriott owner. How it is accomplished is not material to the outcome.
 

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I have been pleased with Starwood. I only buy mandatory resorts on the resale market. I do not like using II for starwood so I give my inventory to SFX instead of II. That way I get a good deal for the week I have booked with II.

I never bought starwood to get elite but I have platinum with Marriott and diamond with Hilton. I did not need the elite with Starwood. I buy the weeks from Starwood that works for me and I never have a problem in getting weeks where I own. It is hard to get at the 8 month mark in place like Harborside and St Johns. I have friends that own at St Johns so I can trade with them if I want to go there.

Customer service depends on the person you talk to. I have had some good ones and some terrible ones. I have also had the same experience with Marriott, Four Seasons, Hyatt and Hilton. The Royals I own I always get good service.

This is just my experience.
 

Troopers

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What does "Decisions made by Starwood need to accomodate the majority of ALL customers" have anything to do with customer consideration, or the issue du jour? They can still make decisions which need to accomodate all customers and still show very poor customer consideration on how is is rolled out.

Lack of consideration/unhappy Tuggers doesn't mean no consideration. Comments have been made that there is no customer consideration...to me this means that when decisions are to be made, customer opinions is not part of the discussion which I think is not true.

I get the sense that some here believe the decision was aimed at the 30 or 40 Tuggers. I do not believe that to be the case. Starwood made a decision aimed at all their customers. We just feel the pain more than others.

Don't get me wrong here. I'm not trying to justify Starwood but I can understand their position and why they may have done this. I'm part of decision making at my firm and decisions are made that negatively impacts employees or customers (more frequently with the down economy). If some Tuggers worked at my firm, they would conclude that we don't care about them and have no consideration for them which is far from true. How management runs a company is different than how customers/employees view it.
 
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nodge

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Lack of consideration/unhappy Tuggers doesn't mean no consideration. Comments have been made that there is no customer consideration...to me this means that when decisions are to be made, customer opinions is not part of the discussion which I think is not true.

How many VP’s do you have at your company? Do they routinely fly on private chartered jets instead of commercial aircraft like SVO does?
Has your top cheese at your company promised something to your employees/customers over 10 years ago and still not delivered on it while continuing to pay lip service that it is coming soon like SVO did/is doing? When a major change to one of your policies that affects your employees/customers is arbitrarily implemented, do you selectively distribute notice of the change or better yet, not inform any of your employees/customers like SVO does? If one of your employees/customers asks you a question, do you ignore it like SVO does?

These aren’t mere misperceptions or hypercriticality here. With respect to service-oriented issues, SVO management is just plain bad.

The weird thing is that if SVO management were to just appear hat-in-hand and say . . . .

“We’re sorry. You see, we are just a bunch of real estate developers that stumbled into this whole sustaining a service-based operation thing, and quite frankly, despite our tie-in with Starwood Hotels, we have no clue how to do that. But, even though our real estate developer skills are more-or-less going to waste in this economy, we aren’t going to let anyone in the Starwood Hotel side of things take over our jobs/paychecks and tell us what to do with respect to that whole service-based side of things either. Moreover, since you are captive audience anyway, our general inclination is to just say ‘deal with it,’ but, sometimes late at night, every now and then, we sort of see your point. So, what can we do to fix this without having to give up any of our control/paychecks to those pansies in the hotel group and without having to spend any more of your money, which we are currently using to fund our massively overstuffed payroll and various boondoggles?”

. . . we’d likely embrace this dialog and offer meaningful suggestions to help the dolts at SVO keep their precious paychecks while still improving the customer service side of things.

So I agree that SVO management does give us owners some “consideration” before making its decisions. It just that our place in the consideration food chain falls well below SVO managements’ own interests, which currently massively conflict with ours.

-nodge
 

Ågent99

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I do not equate Tuggers being not satisfied/happy = Starwood lacks customer consideration. There are lots of frequent flyers very unsatsified/unhappy with airlines now, does this mean that the airlines lack customer satisfacation? Most people are unhappy with the government now, does this mean they don't care about their citizens?

I bet if you were able to poll ALL Starwood owners, most of them would be satisfied. Decisions made by Starwood need to accomodate the majority of ALL customers. They know that there will always be a small percentage that will be unhappy about any decision. Tuggers are the most informed customers and thus, the most critical customers but we're also few among thousands.

I do think SVO management's could be better. There's no excuse for their poor rollout and lack of communication.


Well put, R Chen. I moderate a BMW board and some folks who complain on there about the cars wonder why BMW doesn't listen to them. Uh, BMW's sales have risen every year for several years now so BMW must feel they are doing something right. It is the VERY FEW on an enthusiast board that might be happy and they must realise that they are in the minority.
 

James1975NY

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How many VP’s do you have at your company? Do they routinely fly on private chartered jets instead of commercial aircraft like SVO does?
Has your top cheese at your company promised something to your employees/customers over 10 years ago and still not delivered on it while continuing to pay lip service that it is coming soon like SVO did/is doing? When a major change to one of your policies that affects your employees/customers is arbitrarily implemented, do you selectively distribute notice of the change or better yet, not inform any of your employees/customers like SVO does? If one of your employees/customers asks you a question, do you ignore it like SVO does?

These aren’t mere misperceptions or hypercriticality here. With respect to service-oriented issues, SVO management is just plain bad.

The weird thing is that if SVO management were to just appear hat-in-hand and say . . . .

“We’re sorry. You see, we are just a bunch of real estate developers that stumbled into this whole sustaining a service-based operation thing, and quite frankly, despite our tie-in with Starwood Hotels, we have no clue how to do that. But, even though our real estate developer skills are more-or-less going to waste in this economy, we aren’t going to let anyone in the Starwood Hotel side of things take over our jobs/paychecks and tell us what to do with respect to that whole service-based side of things either. Moreover, since you are captive audience anyway, our general inclination is to just say ‘deal with it,’ but, sometimes late at night, every now and then, we sort of see your point. So, what can we do to fix this without having to give up any of our control/paychecks to those pansies in the hotel group and without having to spend any more of your money, which we are currently using to fund our massively overstuffed payroll and various boondoggles?”

. . . we’d likely embrace this dialog and offer meaningful suggestions to help the dolts at SVO keep their precious paychecks while still improving the customer service side of things.

So I agree that SVO management does give us owners some “consideration” before making its decisions. It just that our place in the consideration food chain falls well below SVO managements’ own interests, which currently massively conflict with ours.

-nodge

Nodge....how many developers (publicly traded) are performing and delivering to your expectations? Not antagonizing you...I am honestly curious.
 

nodge

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Nodge....how many developers (publicly traded) are performing and delivering to your expectations? Not antagonizing you...I am honestly curious.

I'll answer that as soon as you tell us how many SVO timeshares you own, what job you had at SVO, and how you came about leaving it. Not antagonizing, just curious too.

My point is that the other hotel-based timeshare companies simply hired developers to build their timeshares, but they had the good sense to retain control over the basic operations of the businesses. In contrast, Starwood, desperate to catch-up with Marriott, "bought" a no-name, pre-existing timeshare company ("Vistana, Inc."), developers and all, and the Vistana, Inc. developers made darned sure that those developers continued to operate all aspects of the "new" Starwood timeshare business. The poor management we (well at least us owners here) are enduring from SVO stems from the basic fact that to this day SVO continues to be run by a bunch of no-name timeshare developers that simply got lucky enough to be able to use Starwood's good name and reputation.

I think it is fair to say that we SVO owners are experiencing the level of service we would expect if we had bought from a no-name "Vistana, Inc." But we were led to believe (and certainly paid a premium too), by salesmen such as yourself? and Starwood no less, that this was a "Starwood" product with expectations and services comparable to other Starwood products, and that's where the conflict lies.

-nodge
 
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James1975NY

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I'll answer that as soon as you tell us how many SVO timeshares you own, what job you had at SVO, and how you came about leaving it. Not antagonizing, just curious too.

My point is that the other hotel-based timeshare companies simply hired developers to build their timeshares, but they had the good sense to retain control over the basic operations of the businesses. In contrast, Starwood, desparate to catch-up with Marriott, "bought" a no-name, pre-existing timeshare company ("Vistana, Inc."), developers and all, and the Vistana, Inc. developers made darned sure that those developers continued to operate all aspects of the "new" Starwood timeshare business. The poor management we (well at least us owners here) are enduring from SVO stems from the basic fact that to this day SVO continues to be run by a bunch of no-name timeshare developers that simply got lucky enough to be able to use Starwood's good name and reputation.

I think it is fair to say that we SVO owners are experiencing the level of service we would expect if we had bought from a no-name "Vistana, Inc." But we were led to believe, by salesmen such as yourself? and Starwood no less, that this was a "Starwood" product with expectations and services comparable to other Starwood products, and that's where the conflict lies.

-nodge

I do not own any weeks of timeshare at the moment. I simply do not have the capacity to travel as often as I would like from a financial perspective.

I was employed with Vistana Management starting in 2009 which as you know was bought out by Starwood. I was with them until 2006. My last position was managing the owner services department.

I decided to leave because frankly, I was not paid enough to do what I did and I wanted to pursue a career that allowed me to leave my work in the office. What would look like a relatively decent salary just didn't make sense after working 60 hours a week.
 

James1975NY

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I do not own any weeks of timeshare at the moment. I simply do not have the capacity to travel as often as I would like from a financial perspective.

I was employed with Vistana Management starting in 2009 which as you know was bought out by Starwood. I was with them until 2006. My last position was managing the owner services department.

I decided to leave because frankly, I was not paid enough to do what I did and I wanted to pursue a career that allowed me to leave my work in the office. What would look like a relatively decent salary just didn't make sense after working 60 hours a week.

Oh yeah....and the fact that no matter what you did or how hard you tried, you were always dissappointing someone. That got really old too.
 

nodge

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I do not own any weeks of timeshare at the moment. I simply do not have the capacity to travel as often as I would like from a financial perspective.

I was employed with Vistana Management starting in 2009 which as you know was bought out by Starwood. I was with them until 2006. My last position was managing the owner services department.

I decided to leave because frankly, I was not paid enough to do what I did and I wanted to pursue a career that allowed me to leave my work in the office. What would look like a relatively decent salary just didn't make sense after working 60 hours a week.

Wow. You da man! Welcome!

Is there anything you'd like to share with us about life on the inside?

I sure would like to know what Starwood did to manage, change, or improve anything having to do with "owner services" shortly after it bought Vistana, Inc. and over your tenure there.

Also, why has SVO been promising on-line booking for the past 10 years, and still not delivering it? Wassup with that?

-nodge
 
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Troopers

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When a major change to one of your policies that affects your employees/customers is arbitrarily implemented, do you selectively distribute notice of the change or better yet, not inform any of your employees/customers like SVO does? If one of your employees/customers asks you a question, do you ignore it like SVO does?

Perhaps from Starwood’s perspective, this change is not a major change…this is a minor change since it only impacts maybe 0.5% of their customers. On Tug, it feels like a major change because it has impacted many of us here. Also, why do you think it was arbitrarily implemented…did they flip a coin and not even discuss it? Perhaps it was their intent, their strategy to not announce and bring attention to it since it really only affects a small percent of their customers.

These aren’t mere misperceptions or hypercriticality here.

Not so sure about this…this thread is fatalistic. People are starting to believe their own (or other’s) BS.

With respect to service-oriented issues, SVO management is just plain bad.

Agreed.

So I agree that SVO management does give us owners some “consideration” before making its decisions. It just that our place in the consideration food chain falls well below SVO managements’ own interests, which currently massively conflict with ours.

Isn’t this true for all companies in our capitalistic country, except for maybe non-profits. Is there a company whose self interests are below their customer’s interest? Unfortunately, consumers across the board are further down the food chain because of the economy….increased prices, decreased product/service.
 

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Wow. You da man! Welcome!

Is there anything you'd like to share with us about life on the inside?

I sure would like to know what Starwood did to manage, change, or improve anything having to do with "owner services" shortly after it bought Vistana, Inc. and over your tenure there.

Also, why has SVO been promising on-line booking for the past 10 years, and still not delivering it? Wassup with that?

-nodge

Oops....I meant 1999 not 2009 (starting date).

Personal challenges aside, I really liked the management team and I was really proud to work for a company that had such a strong tradition of celebrating its employees for great work. I was and still am a proponent of the Starwood brands as well. I spent my honeymoon in St. John (hotel) and almost didn't come back! - I stayed in the hotel side (don't worry, I didn't steal from the owner block!)

With my experience and knoweldge of the product Starwood sold and serviced, I was involved with a lot of planning....from developing a new reservation system, to MyStarCentral to Live reservations on the internet. I am not 100% sure why this project is not completed as of today but I am guessing it is justifying the capital needed to do so. The goal, I would think is still there.

Although others (developers) are doing it (live reservations), I can say from being involved in the planning stages that the programming and development of this project is a beast. There are so many ownership rules and excpetions (like SDO company 47 and 49) to inventory utilization that it is a very complex project. Being out of the mix for over 2-years I dont want to pretend to be an expert so I will leave it at that. I think it is more of a capital thing....

The people at Starwood were great to work with and I still have long lasting friendship with many of them. I still have my awards from Starwood shining in my office at home!
 

Ken555

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I still have my awards from Starwood shining in my office at home!

Thanks for your insight, James!

And how many oranges did Starwood give you... just curious. :hysterical:
 

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Perhaps from Starwood’s perspective, this change is not a major change…this is a minor change since it only impacts maybe 0.5% of their customers. On Tug, it feels like a major change because it has impacted many of us here. Also, why do you think it was arbitrarily implemented…did they flip a coin and not even discuss it? Perhaps it was their intent, their strategy to not announce and bring attention to it since it really only affects a small percent of their customers.

I agree that given SVO’s actions to date, putting any faith in the elite program’s current list of benefits or even its continued existence is a fools’ folly. But the larger issue here is how can SVO continue to market a bundle of extra-benefits to induce sales, and then within months, and in some cases days, just up and cancel them with impunity when some people are even mid-stream in the process?

I think your right, someone somewhere in SVO decided to up the StarOption requirement to make 5 Star Elite for reasons that probably weren’t aimed at harming us existing owners (except maybe SDKath to get her back for publishing her 5 Star methods here on TUG :wall:). I think it is also fair to say that that decision wasn’t made the exact same day that it was implemented across the board in the sales offices. The delay from deciding to up the StarOption requirement to actually implementing the new requirement probably means that someone, somewhere in at least one of the SVO sales offices was told of the old StarOption requirement as an inducement to get them to buy, and they actually did buy based on that representation, even though SVO collectively “knew” that representation was false when it was made.

Who cares you ask? Well, the law does. Intentionally promising someone something as an inducement to get them to do something with knowledge that the promised thing isn’t true are the three biggest fingers of the five fingers of FRAUD. (The remaining 2 fingers, --buyer is deceived, and injury results-- are certainly also present here). With knowledge of SVO’s top management being imputed to SVO and the actions of the SVO salesmen being imputed to SVO, SVO’s continued sales of developer timeshares after it made the decision to up the StarOption requirement but before actually implementing it, while also remaining silent to this issue to its customers amounts to good ‘ol American Fraud. As an added bonus, in some jurisdictions such corporate activity can also be considered a criminal act, with the corporate officers of the wrong doer corporation facing good ‘ol American jail time and a good ‘ol American criminal conviction on their record to boot.

Of course, this whole issue could have been easily avoided if SVO just gave folks reasonable notice before changing the plan. Since it didn’t, we owners have every right to be mad at SVO management, and SVO management has every right to hope that when their doorbell rings it isn’t a process server.

I agree that keeping customers happy is a tough job. Employee awards are nice and all, but that customer service job should start by at least not committing fraud against ANY of your customers, even if the number defrauded is less than 0.00000000000000005%. By the same token, if SVO didn’t commit fraud, maybe its customers would be happier and not complain so much. There could be a chicken/egg thing going on here.

Regarding the SVO Management conflict issue:

I think in this case, the company’s best interest is to keep its owners happy so we can all be little ambassadors of good will and get people, including ourselves, to buy more timeshares from the company. This parallels us owner’s interests’ nicely.

In contrast, SVO’s top management’s interest is to keep their salaries while maintaining complete control over the entire operation, even if they are not qualified for a particular role and even if that control compromises the best interests of the company and/or us owners. The conflict isn’t with the company and us, but with the SVO top management’s personal interests and us. But for us being a captive audience, this type of conflict could not last very long. But we are, so it does.

If anyone thinks that anything I’ve said here is BS, please point out the specific point or fact and I’ll be happy to link you to the appropriate authority. Otherwise, just globally calling something BS, is, well, BS.

-nodge
 
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