Speculation About Marriott's New Timeshare Structure [merged]

[PerryM]

No it's not. I can do it anytime I want with both HGVC and DRI. If I want a 2 bedroom ocean front in HHV, all I have to do is save points from one year to the next or borrow points from the next year. If I want to stay in a penthouse unit at my home resort, I can do it the same way. I paid for 7,000 points and that's the number of points I can use. If I want the more point-expensive units I can either buy them or manipulate the system to work for me. But it IS fair and you CAN trade up. Heck, you even gave an example of how you traded up using 4,000 Worldmark points to get a 2 bedroom Beachplace Towers. You even stated it was a major trade up in value. How you can say that you can't trade up is beyond me. You just have to know how to work the new system. You and I both know how owners can do this and, after the new Marriott system comes out, TUGGERS will be discussing with each other how to do it with Marriott's system.

What you're talking about is being able to scam the system by trading a lower value for a higher value. You and I have been doing that with the weeks based exchange system for years. Well my friend, those days may be coming to an end with Marriott. We've been able to milk the system at others expense. We bought cheap and traded expensive while others bought expensive but have to trade down. Owners in a points based system get EXACTLY what they paid for.

You paid for a resale Gold Summit Watch week and that's what you'll get in the new system.......if you join the new system. I've been trading a silver season studio week at Ocean Pointe for 2 bedroom Platinum weeks at Willow Ridge in Branson. Are those exchanges fair? Not really. I just had enough knowledge to know how to work the system. Points, on the other hand, will be fair.

I agree that a "Point is a Point" but we are transferring systems and compare weeks to Points. Hence my claim that ALL exchanges eventually lead to downgrades compared to weeks.

If Marriott mixes and matches Points and Weeks this will be easy to see. If weeks disappear and Points only exist then there is no way to view a comparison.

 

[taffy19]

All I read is a change of name! We still have to wait a little longer what the change of name really means. I signed up for a new webinar for next week since I missed the one of tomorrow as they never called me back. I posted about it here. It is so strange that they still were pitching making exchanges with II.

I would assume that the Webinars are up to date?

https://ssl.conferencing.com/cork/index.asp

 

[PerryM]

Say Cheese!

Yes, Marriott is getting into nightly rentals. The new point system is designed to eliminate the Fri-Sun only check-in days. Owners will be able to book stays for less than one week. I do not know what the minimum night stay requirement is. I forgot if I asked that question. I am thinking (guessing) it is two night minimum?

This makes no sense to timeshare folks, it makes a lot of sense to Motel 6 folks.

The calendar will quickly look like Swiss Cheese - full of holes that short term folks love but 2-week folks will find intolerable.

Forget the Swiss Cheese and think Limburger cheese.

 

[l2trade]

I'm curious how you can say that you prefer the current Marriott product to the new when there is no new yet?

If you go by what Perry predicts, no one will see a benefit to changing. The thing is, it's all speculation right now.

If you're one of those unwilling to even consider something new then that's fine. No one has said you must consider changing. Unfortunately a change is coming whether despite our opinions. At this point, we're just hashing out the possibitities and what we think owners should look for in the new system. If you're aware of advantages and pitfalls before hand, it should make it easier to ask the questions that are important to you in order to analyze whether or not this is the right product for you.

IMHO, even if an owner decides to remain in the weeks based program, nothing major will change. I believe one will still be able to either use their week as they have in the past or exchange through I.I. I believe the Marriott priority will remain and I believe that for the forseable future, there will be plenty of weeks based inventory to exchange into.

I am concerned that over time this could change. That's weeks based inventory will become less and that the newer resorts, being 100% points, will be more difficult for weeks based owners to exchange into. I have no facts to base the concern on but, I see it as a potential issue 10 or 15 years down the road. So the question in my mind is, will I be upset at that point/age or will I continue to be content with the current 50 Marriott resorts that should still have adaquate weeks inventory.

Remember, if Marriott tries to lock-out resale owners, that only means that all the weeks sold via the re-sale market will go into the weeks based inventory. Older resorts may remain mostly weeks based and be available for exchange for the length of my lifetime.

It is not all speculation anymore. It is happening. I've spoken with people in the know. I can say that I prefer the current product to the new one because I prefer fixed weeks over floating weeks and floating weeks over points. I am old school in that way. I do not want to own points in a Trust over an underlying Deed. I agree there are plenty of pros and cons to both sides. From what I know, the legacy owners will have the best of both worlds in a sense. They will get to keep their deeds and old rules while also getting the option to convert to points or not annually. Some legacy deeds will be better and others will be worse than the new system. It will depend on what you own, where, when, size, season & MF.

In my situation, I often trade into Marriott from other brands via II. I see nothing here which suggests the availability for external week trades to improve. So, of course I like the old system better. If I already owned a Marriott platinum week at a desirable home resort with reasonable MF, I would be much more open to the new system concept, in order to have the best of both worlds. It is too late for me to go buy that now. And, 15% off is not enough of an incentive to purchase new during my last chance tomorrow, even with the rescission window. You see, it is not 60% off. I might do it if that were what it seemed at first glance. The 60% off is actually to buy an EOY unit for 60% off of the annual unit price. Misleading promotion, eh? So surprising to see that coming from a timeshare sales promotion.

 

[PerryM]

DOA

Some quick notes about the new system rolling out Jun 20th -
1. Existing owners will retain home resort deed, same MF commitments from that home resort and the ability to trade under the old week rules, regardless if they upgrade to the points program or not.

2. If existing owners upgrade their ownership to the points program, this will be an annual decision to use either weeks or points. An owner may convert to points one year and decide to stick with weeks the next.

3. The upgrade cost will be lowest during the introductory period. Owners who upgrade after that period will pay more to do so.

4. All unsold Marriott inventory on Jun 17th from all timeshare resorts will be placed into the points Trust. Going forward, this is all Marriott will sell. You will no longer be able to buy a specific resort, size, season, etc via retail. The only decision when buying Marriott retail will be how many points to buy. The MF for those points will be based on the overall Trust holdings.

5. Points received for converting week will vary based on what season/week you own.

6. Point requirements for reservations will vary per night, size, location, week of the year, etc... Marriott will manage point values within the inventory similar to cash values for nightly hotel rentals.

7. Owners who trade under the old weeks system will continue to control which reservations they relinquish to II. I was told that Marriott has learned from the mistake Starwood made. They will not interfere with owner deposits.

8. It appears that developer inventory units will be converted and stored in the Marriott point system for points owners, rather than the bulk banking into II as we've frequently seen in the past. This could be bad news for those not in the points system and encouragement to join it. The point system will be prepped on day one each year with lots of great availability from developer and unsold inventory weeks.

Based on #5 & #6, there will be scenarios where an existing platinum week owner may convert into points that is worth less than the points cost of a week during the highest demand week and worth more than the points cost of a week during the lowest demand week of that season.

The point system is designed to appeal to owners of non-lockoff two bedroom and/or high conversion value weeks, who can get additional nights by staying off season or in smaller units or during lower demand week nights. The point system is designed to appeal to owners of off-season or smaller unit weeks who will be happy to receive fewer nights in exchange for a prime time stay, or bigger unit, or view upgrade, etc. Most significantly, the point system is designed for Marriott, who will be able to convert smaller resorts / hotel rooms to points and increase the breadth of the points system network & the diversity of the Trust without the significant capital costs of building future, massive, villa style timeshare resorts. Marriott will start start to manage timeshares more like hotels and get access to more empty room nights that in the past they could not touch.

I predict many owners (non-Tuggers) will like this new system. I do not. I expect this system will make things more 'fair'. By 'fair', I mean that owners like me who plan early and often will have far less opportunity to benefit from the failing of owners who don't. In a word, I say !$#@+!.

If the above turns out to be true, the new Marriott Vacation Club Destinations is DOA - it was designed for the wrong crowd - the Motel 6 folks.

New sales are going to be Points in a motel system.

This might be perfect for other parts of the world but not what we are used to.

Kind of like those stupid horns that are killing the World Cup - the home country loves them and I just stopped watching World Cup over the morons blowing those things.

Remember when Coke brought out the "New Coke" and everyone hated it and they had to bring back "Classic Coke".

Maybe that's what we have here "Classic Marriott" and "New Marriott" - let's see which outlasts the other.

 

[l2trade]

What is all the above? A WAG or rumors from salesreps being trained.

I don't see a Trust system in the above.

I'm confused.

I thought a Disney guru designed the system - this ain't no Disney.

This sounds more like Resort2Resort or RedWeek.

No, this ain't no Disney! I said that in an earlier post and got challenged for going too far with my comparison to DRI.

The TRUST is for all developer owned and unsold annual inventory from Jun 17th forward. There are loads and loads of unsold inventory from which to create this and establish a foundational point system on Day One.

Everything already owned as deeds will stay as deeds, conversion or not. I've been assured that existing owners will not be required to turn over their deeds to the TRUST to join the new system. IMHO, that is a very good thing for those owners. It could be a whole lot worse. Just take the DRI comparison deeper and you will see what I mean.

 

[l2trade]

If the above turns out to be true, the new Marriott Vacation Club Destinations is DOA - it was designed for the wrong crowd - the Motel 6 folks.

New sales are going to be Points in a motel system.

This might be perfect for other parts of the world but not what we are used to.

Kind of like those stupid horns that are killing the World Cup - the home country loves them and I just stopped watching World Cup over the morons blowing those things.

Remember when Coke brought out the "New Coke" and everyone hated it and they had to bring back "Classic Coke".

Maybe that's what we have here "Classic Marriott" and "New Marriott" - let's see which outlasts the other.

Unfortunately, this won't be DOA. I liken this to a burn the boat strategy. Marriott is holding a ton of unsold inventory. They needed a new game to reach a new audience. They want new methods to get control over allocating empty rooms. They decided to manage timeshares more like they manage hotels.

 

[l2trade]

I agree that a "Point is a Point" but we are transferring systems and compare weeks to Points. Hence my claim that ALL exchanges eventually lead to downgrades compared to weeks.

If Marriott mixes and matches Points and Weeks this will be easy to see. If weeks disappear and Points only exist then there is no way to view a comparison.

Weeks aren't going away. We should be able to compare week to point week sightings. To be clear, I am told that nightly Marriott system point inventory will be primarily managed by Marriott, not II. Marriott point owners can search for weeks with points in II if they decide to go that route. In the coming months, I plan to do enough comparative analysis, that only a true die hard Tugger could understand and appreciate. My wife is asleep. She probably thinks I'm crazy for all the research and phone calls I've been making.

 

[l2trade]

This makes no sense to timeshare folks, it makes a lot of sense to Motel 6 folks.

The calendar will quickly look like Swiss Cheese - full of holes that short term folks love but 2-week folks will find intolerable.

Forget the Swiss Cheese and think Limburger cheese.

LMAO, funny you mention Motel 6...

Motel 6 is part of the classic timeshare sales script used for decades to sell newbies on the timesharing concept. I've lost count how many times I've heard the same lines delivered the same way by so many different developers. A common skeptical response was that Motel 6 doesn't force one to stay an entire week at a time. Finally, Marriott will have a new comeback line to that. I expect millions of marketing dollars have been spent redesigning the updated Motel 6 analogy script and associated sales presentation training. Just a thought.

 

[scrapngen]

Weeks aren't going away. We should be able to compare week to point week sightings. To be clear, I am told that nightly Marriott system point inventory will be primarily managed by Marriott, not II. Marriott point owners can search for weeks with points in II if they decide to go that route. In the coming months, I plan to do enough comparative analysis, that only a true die hard Tugger could understand and appreciate. My wife is asleep. She probably thinks I'm crazy for all the research and phone calls I've been making.

Well, I do appreciate the information gathering

Sounds like some further questions (besides how trades and points will intermix) will be how not only current resales are handled, but resales down the road. If one decides Marriott is not doomed and wants to actually add to their portfolio, how will resale weeks and resale points work? Can they convert? if it was a week and was converted is it then still a week with points? or does the conversion fee have to be re-applied? How will the MF's change over time for the deeded weeks as more and more points are sold? If everyone is grandfathered in with home resort priority, is that only if they make this change in a certain timeframe? IOW, what about a week purchased resale in the future. This person has not had the opportunity to change it to points during the rollout because he is buying years later. Can he change to points with the home resort advantage because he bought a deed?

 

[dougp26364]

This makes no sense to timeshare folks, it makes a lot of sense to Motel 6 folks.

The calendar will quickly look like Swiss Cheese - full of holes that short term folks love but 2-week folks will find intolerable.

Forget the Swiss Cheese and think Limburger cheese.

I don't see this problem with DRI, which has over 100 resorts, both managed by DRI and affiliated with THE Club. I do see this problem with HGVC which has a limited number of locations and affiliated resorts that have limited inventory. I think that Marriott, with 51 resorts at the moment, won't have an issue.

 

[dougp26364]

Some quick notes about the new system rolling out Jun 20th -
1. Existing owners will retain home resort deed, same MF commitments from that home resort and the ability to trade under the old week rules, regardless if they upgrade to the points program or not.

2. If existing owners upgrade their ownership to the points program, this will be an annual decision to use either weeks or points. An owner may convert to points one year and decide to stick with weeks the next.

3. The upgrade cost will be lowest during the introductory period. Owners who upgrade after that period will pay more to do so.

4. All unsold Marriott inventory on Jun 17th from all timeshare resorts will be placed into the points Trust. Going forward, this is all Marriott will sell. You will no longer be able to buy a specific resort, size, season, etc via retail. The only decision when buying Marriott retail will be how many points to buy. The MF for those points will be based on the overall Trust holdings.

5. Points received for converting week will vary based on what season/week you own.

6. Point requirements for reservations will vary per night, size, location, week of the year, etc... Marriott will manage point values within the inventory similar to cash values for nightly hotel rentals.

7. Owners who trade under the old weeks system will continue to control which reservations they relinquish to II. I was told that Marriott has learned from the mistake Starwood made. They will not interfere with owner deposits.

8. It appears that developer inventory units will be converted and stored in the Marriott point system for points owners, rather than the bulk banking into II as we've frequently seen in the past. This could be bad news for those not in the points system and encouragement to join it. The point system will be prepped on day one each year with lots of great availability from developer and unsold inventory weeks.

Based on #5 & #6, there will be scenarios where an existing platinum week owner may convert into points that is worth less than the points cost of a week during the highest demand week and worth more than the points cost of a week during the lowest demand week of that season.

The point system is designed to appeal to owners of non-lockoff two bedroom and/or high conversion value weeks, who can get additional nights by staying off season or in smaller units or during lower demand week nights. The point system is designed to appeal to owners of off-season or smaller unit weeks who will be happy to receive fewer nights in exchange for a prime time stay, or bigger unit, or view upgrade, etc. Most significantly, the point system is designed for Marriott, who will be able to convert smaller resorts / hotel rooms to points and increase the breadth of the points system network & the diversity of the Trust without the significant capital costs of building future, massive, villa style timeshare resorts. Marriott will start start to manage timeshares more like hotels and get access to more empty room nights that in the past they could not touch.

I predict many owners (non-Tuggers) will like this new system. I do not. I expect this system will make things more 'fair'. By 'fair', I mean that owners like me who plan early and often will have far less opportunity to benefit from the failing of owners who don't. In a word, I say !$#@+!.

If this is what's taken Marriott two years to come up with, it has to be one of the oddest systems I've ever seen. It seems to me that a straight points overlay system with fixed week owners electing to keep their reservation or accept points for their week would be so much simpler. Those that have floating weeks would automatically be assigned points every year for their week but, they would be assigned enough points to reserve their specific unit type each year. Why would Marriott want to cut a new road and make this more difficult than it needs to be? If it's not simple to understand, people aren't going to like it, they'll become frustrated with it and the complaints will be on. Marriott will lose it's reputation as one of the better timeshare systems to own.

On the other hand, if Marriott tanks the resale prices on weeks units, maybe down to that $1 DRI unit you see on E-bay, there will be lots of opportunities opening up on some really nice resort weeks.

 

[dougp26364]

The New Marriott Timeshare Organization

It’s official folks – the name of the new timeshare division of Marriott is “Marriott Vacation Club Destinations” which will be launched on Monday, June 21, 2010.
The website will be: www.MarriottVacationClubDestinations.com

http://www.timesharewizard.com/marriott-vacation-club-destinations.html

The RC program is refered to as a "destination club." I wonder how closely the new Marriott program will mirror the Ritz Carlton program.

 

[Latravel]

Ha....it's starting. Can't wait to hear the details!

 

[PerryM]

Set phasers to stun...

No, this ain't no Disney! I said that in an earlier post and got challenged for going too far with my comparison to DRI.

The TRUST is for all developer owned and unsold annual inventory from Jun 17th forward. There are loads and loads of unsold inventory from which to create this and establish a foundational point system on Day One.

Everything already owned as deeds will stay as deeds, conversion or not. I've been assured that existing owners will not be required to turn over their deeds to the TRUST to join the new system. IMHO, that is a very good thing for those owners. It could be a whole lot worse. Just take the DRI comparison deeper and you will see what I mean.

I'm trying to grasp the concept here:

• Marriott's unsold inventory and ALL future inventory will stop being weeks and become Points forever
  
• All existing inventory owned by owners phases in and out of Points forever

This sounds like something was lost in translation.

So:

• Weeks is week oriented but can become daily oriented and then move back to weeks
• Points is daily oriented

The reason we had to live with Friday, Saturday, and Sunday check-ins was supposedly to lighten the load on the cleaning staff. Now it's any day a check-in and for a day or two?

This makes no sense at all - this is like the Attack of the Werewolves and it's a full moon tonight and a phase change is about to occur.

This is really going to be hard to figure out what the heck impact this has on ANYTHING starting next week. I'm stunned.

Maybe this explains why the guy from Disney left Disney with these ideas - even Goofy has better ideas...

 

[Clark]

It is so strange that they still were pitching making exchanges with II.
[/URL]

What's strange about that -- going through II for non-Marriott exchanges?

 

[dougp26364]

I'm trying to grasp the concept here:

• Marriott's unsold inventory and ALL future inventory will stop being weeks and become Points
  
• All existing inventory owned by owners phases in and out of Points from now on forward

This sounds like something was lost in translation.

So weeks is week oriented and Points is daily oriented.

The reason we had to live with Friday, Saturday, and Sunday check-ins was supposedly to lighten the load on the cleaning staff. Now it's any day a check-in and for a day or two.

This makes no sense at all - this is like the Attack of the Werewolves and it's a full moon tonight.

I feel a little better now. If we're both a little perplexed by what's been posted, something just isn't right.

I'm really at a point where I welcome seeing this new program in writing. I'm not so certain this isn't just someone having a little fun and pulling someone's leg. I just don't see Marriott cutting a new road through a jungle when there's a six lane freeway they could drive down at 100 mph.

 

[Dean]

To me that's exchanging "down".

I own a Bentley and enter it into a car exchange where I get to rent 2 Hondas and 2 Toyotas for a total of 4 weeks for 1 week in my Bentley.

This is my Point - exchanging down is easy, exchanging up is impossible.

No Perry, exchanging up is much easier OVERALL as well, it's just more costly so and you would be able to get less weeks overall over a period of a few years. The system I2Trade has laid out is about the best one could hope for in that current owners get their cake and eat it too. The changes in II exchanging will likely be the same, or nearly so, no matter what the specifics of the internal exchange and conversions end up as.

This makes no sense to timeshare folks, it makes a lot of sense to Motel 6 folks.

The calendar will quickly look like Swiss Cheese - full of holes that short term folks love but 2-week folks will find intolerable.

Forget the Swiss Cheese and think Limburger cheese.

BG does it this way successfully, so does RCI points and their member resorts, doesn't Worldmark do the same?

 

[zam]

Marriott's new TS structure

We attended a sales presentation at Surfwatch yesterday and were told by our sales rep that after today (Wednesday June 16), the sales center was closing down until next Monday June 21 for intensive training of the reps on the new structure of the Marriott timeshare business which premieres next week. He then proceeded to briefly outline the elements of the new paradigm:
1) the system will be entirely point based (apparently similar to the Hilton model) - purchasers will not buy a deeded share in a single property but buy points deeded to a trust inclusive of all Marriott "destinations."
2) existing owners will be grandfathered in and continue as before but will have the option of "buying in" (for multiple week owners - $695) to have the option of participating in the new process. This was portrayed as the best of both worlds.

The sales effort was clearly to push sales of remaining inventory at Marriott's Myrtle Beach site with 20% discounts and lowered down payment requirements - until the end of business today.

 

[dioxide45]

This should probably have been posted in the super thread.

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115665

 

[dioxide45]

Shouldn't all this be in the existing thread? . We can't beat that Aruba thread in post counts if people keep starting new ones

 

[hipslo]

I have to agree with Doug. currently people looking to book for personal use that want prime week are competing against people wanting to book the highest demand week to plop in to II. In a point system, that all goes away. Those people exchanging are just reserving somewhere else. I would bet those in points wanting to exchange through II will get their week picked for them by Marriott.

There is now less demand for those super prime weeks and those that were shut out in the past by exchangers may actually get a week to occupy.

Except that, with no home resort priority, every single points owner, system wide, can now try and get those prime weeks, not just owners at that resort, in that season. As a result, competition is likely to increase for the best prime weeks, not decrease.

 

[hipslo]

Don't be shocked when Marriott forbids renting your week. It might not happen initially but the jealously won't take long and folks will demand that renting be abolished. Marriott will just smile and forbid renting. Of course they will continue to rent...

I am concerned about this as well, and think you may very well be correct.

 

[rpluskota]

Curious, what was the sales rep saying the benefit of not waiting was vs.purchasing on Monday.

 

[tombo]

The good points will be plentiful. Timeshares will work more like nightly hotel reservations, except you will use points instead of cash. And, except you will spend a huge chunk of change upfront for the privilege to commit annual ongoing MF (convert your useless cash to points - yeah). And, except timeshares are designed to achieve maximum levels of occupancy, early on and year round. This is unlike hotel rooms, where you can typically find availability almost anywhere last minute for all but the top spots at the top times.

On second thought, why not stick with cash?

Cash is a better idea and much more reliable than hoping to make nightly reservations using points. Who wants to wait until the last minute hoping to reserve a night or two using points, pay extra fees to use your points, pay extra housekeeping fees for less than 7 night stays, and not be able to get your points back if your plans change when you could instead make normal Marriott reservations on your credit card months in advance and cancel within 24 hours with no penalty if your plans change? I will stick with cash for nightly reservations too.

Points for less than a week stay is a benefit that is questionable as to who the benefit is actually for. In Marriott's survey to owners they mentioned being able to make reservations for stays of less than 7 nights using points at the 6 month mark, and single night reservations using points would be available at 30 days or less prior to check in. Does anyone think there is going to be a lot of good inventory available using these timeframes? This is mostly going to be last minute inventory that Marriott is stuck with. It is not a benefit to points members, it is a benefit to Marriott allowing them to get rid of remaining unwanted inventory. II and RCI do the same thing at 45 days prior to check in giving cheap rental rates to entice members to take the inventory they are stuck with, and on TUG you can firesale your unrented weeks at the 60 day mark.

What a benefit. We get to use our use expensive points to get partial weeks and days that Marriott is stuck with in their inventory, we get to pay Marriott fees to cash in our points, and we get to pay extra housekeeping fees for stays of less than a week if we can somehow find a partial week or night that will work for us, and it is a benefit for who again?