Speculation About Marriott's New Timeshare Structure [merged]

[GregT]

Okay, I think this is it -- I'm pretty sure this is new -- the Destinations has a TM next to it...

If you double click the picture, it will become normal size (I think).

There are also numerous new Plasma TV screens, but new TVs don't necessarily mean a massive new system.

 

[dougp26364]

My point was that if exchangers have access to resorts, whether at 8 months or 12 months, owners can get locked out of their season much earlier than they could now. Even if all they care about is getting a random week. That's simply due to the fact that you give outsiders access to those weeks so there could be more requests for all the weeks in a season than there are owners.

Inventory control will keep that from happening for weeks owners. Marriott will always have to keep the number of contracted weeks owned by deeded weeks based owners.

Points owners may find a different situation should Marriott come out with a trust based ownership that doesn't have a home resort priority. With a trust based ownership where everyone owns an interest in a group of resorts, if you have enough points to reserve a week, then you can reserve a week in ANY resort in that trust group.

As an extreme example lets say that one trust has all the Hawaiian resorts. For whatever reason, let's say something happens that makes the Maui and Kauai bad choices for vacationing one year leaving Oahu as the only desirable Hawaiian island to vist. Now you would have owners at every Marriott Hawaii trying to book a unit at Ko Olina. Those that bought Ko Olina and then joined the points based program might find they can't get a unit at the resort they originally purchased. Ouch!

That's why I'm a little concerned about Fletch's statement (I believe it was Fletch) about no home resort advantage. I bought specific resorts to stay at those resorts. In Florida, I'm not certain I'd want to compete with every owner of an Orlando to get into my home resort at Ocean Pointe. If I remain a weeks owner, I'm guarenteed a week at my home resort. If Marriott goes to a trust based ownership with no home resort advantage, then I give up that week and will have to settle for any week in that trust for which I have enough points. If all the Orlando owners decide they want a beach vacation and beat me to the punch, rather than enjoying the ocean front unit I bought at Ocean Pointe I could be stuck vacationing in Orlando, which is a destination neither of us desire.

There are things I like about points based reservations sytems but, if there's no home resort advantage, I'm not certain the things I like about points will be enough to get me to give up the home resort advantage I currently share.

I'm not concerned that if I remain weeks, that points based owners could snatch all the weeks at my resort. Points will have to be limited to the number of weeks converted. The HOA will still have to make adaquate weeks available to fullfill the contractual obligations given to those that hold deeds.

This works for other companies that have converted. If it didn't, there would be a lot of LONG complaint threads warning others to stay away from that company. In my personal experience with DRI, which has deeded weeks owners, points overlay owners and trust based owners, no such problem with unit availability exists. No one has ever complained of being locked out of their season. I think lack of availabiltiy to reserve has no basis in fact to be a major concern.

 

[GregT]

The sign had listed all of the Hawaii Marriott properties (that I am aware of) -- each of the timeshares (including Kauai Lagoons), and also the Marriott hotels on Waikiki (including the Courtyard), Waikoloa, and Kauai -- but did not include any Ritz Carltons.

 

[dougp26364]

Yes, we are! Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. I think $1 is too high a price to pay for Diamond Resorts resale. But, as always, the marketplace will eventually sort it all out.

I plan to NEVER buy one of the new, post-Jun 20th, Marriott timeshare products resale. I know all I need to know already. It is not for me, but I respect that others may like it. Call me old school, if you must. As it relates to timeshares, I don't consider that an insult. I much prefer the guarantee of a specific fixed week at a fixed resort and the separation of powers in exchanging through a 3rd party. I will keep an open mind about buying one of the older 'weeks-only', Marriott resort deeds someday, preferably fixed platinum plus or holiday.

Marriott can never be like Disney and this isn't the first time they've tried. Marriott's Great America, anyone?

There are vast differences between DRI and Marriott. Other than the fact DRI has weeks based ownership, points overlay and trust based ownership, there isn't really any comparison.

DRI has never had ROFR as far as I am aware. Resale prices for DRI/Sunterra has never been nearly as high as Hilton or Marriott, both of which have very desirable resorts and use to exercise ROFR.

If you believe that points programs are the only factor for resale prices then your mistaken. Resort and management quality play large roles. Sunterra went bankrupt not once but twice I believe. They were never a very sound management company, had many complaints against them, didn't place their resorts in prime locations, didn't provide the ameenites that Marriott resorts provide, didn't maintain their resorts to Marriott's standards et.......

If a points program is all there is to resale prices, then go price HGVC points and see if you can get those for $1.

 

[PerryM]

Perry, Perry, Perry....You can't have it both ways!!

Here is a quote from your OWN post #2349:

"...I just reviewed my II account and EVERY exchange going back to 2000 is an "upgrade" - everyone of them.

There were many times I exchanged 4,000 WM credits to stay at Beachplace Towers in a 2BR at 59-days in II. I counted 4 of them; my son and his frat brothers had a great time. My MF for the WM credits was $200 + exchange fee and the MF for BPT was always around $1,000.

That was an upgrade and nobody wanted that exchange so I got it; and it was a hell of an upgrade.

This is but one example of exchanges just sitting out there and folks decided to pass the reservation by...."

....Just sayin'

...Pretty sure WM is a points system last time I checked.... (and one many including you seem to like for its flexibility, etc, although I am sure it has its own things owners don't like as well)

I'm referring to the new Marriott system and how internally you can leverage a Point.

What makes timeshare leveraging work now are the interfaces from one system to another. I upgraded from Gold to Platinum at the interface of Marriott and II. The Platinum weeks I snagged were done at the 24 day window in II before they left Marriott and went to II.

It's all Marriott next week and the interface disappears and so does the leveraging.

 

[davidvel]

Okay, I think this is it -- I'm pretty sure this is new -- the Destinations has a TM next to it...

If you double click the picture, it will become normal size (I think).

There are also numerous new Plasma TV screens, but new TVs don't necessarily mean a massive new system.

Yes Marriott Vacation Club Destinations is a new TM for Marriott International. It was just finalized by the USPTO on June 4th (just in time?)

http://tmportal.uspto.gov/external/...e&details=&SELECT=US+Serial+No&TEXT=77891147#

And a new web address (just purchased May 7th) to go along with the new name:

Registrant:
Marriott International, Inc
Marriott International
6649 Westwood Blvd Suite 500
Orlando, FL 32821
US
Email: mvci.webadmin@vacationclub.com

Registrar Name....: CORPORATE DOMAINS, INC.
Registrar Whois...: whois.corporatedomains.com
Registrar Homepage: www.cscprotectsbrands.com

Domain Name: marriottvacationclubdestinations.com

Created on..............: Fri, May 07, 2010
Expires on..............: Thu, May 07, 2015
Record last updated on..: Fri, May 07, 2010

Administrative,Technical Contact:
Marriott International
WebAdmin MVCI
6649 Westwood Blvd Suite 500
Orlando, FL 32821
US
Phone: +1.4072066000
Email: mvci.webadmin@vacationclub.com

 

[dougp26364]

I've got my work cut out for me when words like "Fair", "Worth", "Value", and "Honest" are used in the same sentence as a timeshare sales group.

I doubt of the number of Points a person gets for their deed makes that much difference to 95% of Marriott owners. Folks here, yes.

It's going to be a take it or leave it proposition and the clock will put pressure on converting instantly.

Let's give an example:

You own a week 52 at MountainSide and Marriott's calendar shows that it's worth 60,000 Points.

The same week at the Maui Ocean Club is worth 70,000 Points.

Do you convert or not?

Then to top it off waiting a single week costs you $500 a week to convert.

The Points mean nothing and it's just a decision to be welcomed into Marriott's loving arms or be kicked in the teeth.

Owners will convert no matter what the Points say.

P.S.
In the above example the Park City owner will not only convert and pay for that but probably buy 10,000 more Points just so they can vacation in Maui once in a while.

O.K. let's take a look at this.

On the surface, you're comparing only two resorts. If I want to use my week 52 mountainside and rarely, if ever trade it. No, I'm not converting.

But let's say I've grown tired of going to Mountainside every week 52 and would like to branch out. Maybe I want to go to Williamsburg in the fall, Orlando in the spring or maybe even trade back into Mountainside in the summer. For the sake of the arguement, lets say I've had health changes and can no longer ski or be at high altitudes during the winter months. If I stayed in a weeks based program, how do you think I'd feel giving up that week 52 for an Orlando week, summer Mountainside week or fall Williamsburg week straight up? I bet even you would feel this isn't a fair exchange.

Now, let's put this in points terms. Mountainside week 52 is worth 60,000 points. Fall Williamsburg is worth 25,000 points. Spring Orlando is worth 25,000 points and summer Mountainside is worth 25,000 points. Does this seem a little more desirable for exchanging that week 52? I bet even you would have to admit that yes it's a little more fair. The week 52 Mountainsid owner would now be getting fair value for their week rather than face trading down, just because the wanted to go from a very high demand week to a location in shoulder season.

How about this scenario. Marriott puts into it's plan a less than 60 day reservation window and discounts reservations by 50% for thesse short notice exchanges. Now, if the Mountainside owner wants to risk it, they can get Orlando, Williamsburg and a summer week at Mountain side for a grand total of 37,500 points and still have 12,500 left over. Maybe those points can be converted to MF's at 5 cents per point to offset MF's by $625! Now how does that look to you? Maybe the Maui Ocean Club owner might want to spend 60,000 points to go to Mountainside on week 52. That owner will still have 10,000 points remaining. Rather than trade down just slightly, he'll get FULL value for his trade making his week worth even more to him. Heck, he might even be able to nab a studio Ko 'Olina unit for 4 days in September so, he'll still get a little Hawaii plus get that week 52 at Mountainside.

You see Perry, there's a positive side to all that you put out there that's negative. You know darn good and well that there are some very good things that can be done with points. You choose to focus on strictly the negative and are really pushing TUGGERS to believe this will be all bad.

PS: If the Mountainside owner wants to go to Maui once in a while, he'll probably just borrow 10,000 points from the next year or, maybe save 10,000 points from the present year and go to Maui once in a while without the need to buy more points.

 

[SueDonJ]

Okay, I think this is it -- I'm pretty sure this is new -- the Destinations has a TM next to it...

If you double click the picture, it will become normal size (I think).

There are also numerous new Plasma TV screens, but new TVs don't necessarily mean a massive new system.

The sign had listed all of the Hawaii Marriott properties (that I am aware of) -- each of the timeshares (including Kauai Lagoons), and also the Marriott hotels on Waikiki (including the Courtyard), Waikoloa, and Kauai -- but did not include any Ritz Carltons.

I wonder if that's something available in the Asia Pacific Program, the established points system that includes the Hawaii resorts? Or maybe it is something new to do with whatever they may be rolling out ...

(Again with a comparison to another system, but Disney offers "destination trips" through their Adventures by Disney program. It isn't connected, though, to DVC. Maybe this is a Marriott offering not connected to MVCI and they're simply taking advantage of the ad space in that Sales Preview Center?)

{edited to add} Nevermind, I see Davidvel's post and now think this is a new thing connected to MVCI and some Marriott hotels, similar to Disney's Adventures By Disney. (FYI, the marriottvacationclubdestinations.com page won't load for me.)

 

[l2trade]

Some quick notes about the new system rolling out Jun 20th -
1. Existing owners will retain home resort deed, same MF commitments from that home resort and the ability to trade under the old week rules, regardless if they upgrade to the points program or not.

2. If existing owners upgrade their ownership to the points program, this will be an annual decision to use either weeks or points. An owner may convert to points one year and decide to stick with weeks the next.

3. The upgrade cost will be lowest during the introductory period. Owners who upgrade after that period will pay more to do so.

4. All unsold Marriott inventory on Jun 17th from all timeshare resorts will be placed into the points Trust. Going forward, this is all Marriott will sell. You will no longer be able to buy a specific resort, size, season, etc via retail. The only decision when buying Marriott retail will be how many points to buy. The MF for those points will be based on the overall Trust holdings.

5. Points received for converting week will vary based on what season/week you own.

6. Point requirements for reservations will vary per night, size, location, week of the year, etc... Marriott will manage point values within the inventory similar to cash values for nightly hotel rentals.

7. Owners who trade under the old weeks system will continue to control which reservations they relinquish to II. I was told that Marriott has learned from the mistake Starwood made. They will not interfere with owner deposits.

8. It appears that developer inventory units will be converted and stored in the Marriott point system for points owners, rather than the bulk banking into II as we've frequently seen in the past. This could be bad news for those not in the points system and encouragement to join it. The point system will be prepped on day one each year with lots of great availability from developer and unsold inventory weeks.

Based on #5 & #6, there will be scenarios where an existing platinum week owner may convert into points that is worth less than the points cost of a week during the highest demand week and worth more than the points cost of a week during the lowest demand week of that season.

The point system is designed to appeal to owners of non-lockoff two bedroom and/or high conversion value weeks, who can get additional nights by staying off season or in smaller units or during lower demand week nights. The point system is designed to appeal to owners of off-season or smaller unit weeks who will be happy to receive fewer nights in exchange for a prime time stay, or bigger unit, or view upgrade, etc. Most significantly, the point system is designed for Marriott, who will be able to convert smaller resorts / hotel rooms to points and increase the breadth of the points system network & the diversity of the Trust without the significant capital costs of building future, massive, villa style timeshare resorts. Marriott will start start to manage timeshares more like hotels and get access to more empty room nights that in the past they could not touch.

I predict many owners (non-Tuggers) will like this new system. I do not. I expect this system will make things more 'fair'. By 'fair', I mean that owners like me who plan early and often will have far less opportunity to benefit from the failing of owners who don't. In a word, I say !$#@+!.

 

[tombo]

You know darn good and well that there are some very good things that can be done with points. You choose to focus on strictly the negative and are really pushing TUGGERS to believe this will be all bad.

I am sure that the new Marriott points system isn't all bad. Heck if you look hard enough some good can be found in most anything. For example if you look beyond the obvious psychopathic, murdering, raping, piece of animal dung that is Joran Vandersloot, you can see that he is a guy who loves his mom. I am glad that some owners will be able to dig deep enough to find the good in Marriott and their points program after it is launched. I feel sure it will take a lot of digging to find good points while the bad points will be glaring at all of us.

 

[l2trade]

There are vast differences between DRI and Marriott. Other than the fact DRI has weeks based ownership, points overlay and trust based ownership, there isn't really any comparison.

DRI has never had ROFR as far as I am aware. Resale prices for DRI/Sunterra has never been nearly as high as Hilton or Marriott, both of which have very desirable resorts and use to exercise ROFR.

If you believe that points programs are the only factor for resale prices then your mistaken. Resort and management quality play large roles. Sunterra went bankrupt not once but twice I believe. They were never a very sound management company, had many complaints against them, didn't place their resorts in prime locations, didn't provide the ameenites that Marriott resorts provide, didn't maintain their resorts to Marriott's standards et.......

If a points program is all there is to resale prices, then go price HGVC points and see if you can get those for $1.

I never said Marriott resale values would go to $1. I said DRI resales values are worth less than $1. I agree DRI resort and management quality is much lower and complaints against them are high. You are right. The comparisons mostly end at weeks based ownership, points overlay and trust based ownership. And, I am right to hold onto my personal opinion that I like the older product better than the new. The new product is too granular and flexible to allow for analytical and patient planners like myself to benefit from the seasonal & unit size & timing imbalances common in a week for week 3rd party exchange system. My hope is that enough existing Marriott owners stick with the old weeks system that it doesn't squash my II trading fortunes.

 

[PerryM]

O.K. let's take a look at this.

On the surface, you're comparing only two resorts. If I want to use my week 52 mountainside and rarely, if ever trade it. No, I'm not converting.

But let's say I've grown tired of going to Mountainside every week 52 and would like to branch out. Maybe I want to go to Williamsburg in the fall, Orlando in the spring or maybe even trade back into Mountainside in the summer. For the sake of the arguement, lets say I've had health changes and can no longer ski or be at high altitudes during the winter months. If I stayed in a weeks based program, how do you think I'd feel giving up that week 52 for an Orlando week, summer Mountainside week or fall Williamsburg week straight up? I bet even you would feel this isn't a fair exchange.

Now, let's put this in points terms. Mountainside week 52 is worth 60,000 points. Fall Williamsburg is worth 25,000 points. Spring Orlando is worth 25,000 points and summer Mountainside is worth 25,000 points. Does this seem a little more desirable for exchanging that week 52? I bet even you would have to admit that yes it's a little more fair. The week 52 Mountainsid owner would now be getting fair value for their week rather than face trading down, just because the wanted to go from a very high demand week to a location in shoulder season.

How about this scenario. Marriott puts into it's plan a less than 60 day reservation window and discounts reservations by 50% for thesse short notice exchanges. Now, if the Mountainside owner wants to risk it, they can get Orlando, Williamsburg and a summer week at Mountain side for a grand total of 37,500 points and still have 12,500 left over. Maybe those points can be converted to MF's at 5 cents per point to offset MF's by $625! Now how does that look to you? Maybe the Maui Ocean Club owner might want to spend 60,000 points to go to Mountainside on week 52. That owner will still have 10,000 points remaining. Rather than trade down just slightly, he'll get FULL value for his trade making his week worth even more to him. Heck, he might even be able to nab a studio Ko 'Olina unit for 4 days in September so, he'll still get a little Hawaii plus get that week 52 at Mountainside.

You see Perry, there's a positive side to all that you put out there that's negative. You know darn good and well that there are some very good things that can be done with points. You choose to focus on strictly the negative and are really pushing TUGGERS to believe this will be all bad.

PS: If the Mountainside owner wants to go to Maui once in a while, he'll probably just borrow 10,000 points from the next year or, maybe save 10,000 points from the present year and go to Maui once in a while without the need to buy more points.

To me that's exchanging "down".

I own a Bentley and enter it into a car exchange where I get to rent 2 Hondas and 2 Toyotas for a total of 4 weeks for 1 week in my Bentley.

This is my Point - exchanging down is easy, exchanging up is impossible.

 

[l2trade]

I am sure that the new Marriott points system isn't all bad. Heck if you look hard enough some good can be found in most anything. For example if you look beyond the obvious psychopathic, murdering, raping, piece of animal dung that is Joran Vandersloot, you can see that he is a guy who loves his mom. I am glad that some owners will be able to dig deep enough to find the good in Marriott and their points program after it is launched. I feel sure it will take a lot of digging to find good points while the bad points will be glaring at all of us.

The good points will be plentiful. Timeshares will work more like nightly hotel reservations, except you will use points instead of cash. And, except you will spend a huge chunk of change upfront for the privilege to commit annual ongoing MF (convert your useless cash to points - yeah). And, except timeshares are designed to achieve maximum levels of occupancy, early on and year round. This is unlike hotel rooms, where you can typically find availability almost anywhere last minute for all but the top spots at the top times.

On second thought, why not stick with cash?

 

[scrapngen]

Some quick notes about the new system rolling out Jun 20th -
1. Existing owners will retain home resort deed, same MF commitments from that home resort and the ability to trade under the old week rules, regardless if they upgrade to the points program or not.

2. If existing owners upgrade their ownership to the points program, this will be an annual decision to use either weeks or points. An owner may convert to points one year and decide to stick with weeks the next.

3. The upgrade cost will be lowest during the introductory period. Owners who upgrade after that period will pay more to do so.

4. All unsold Marriott inventory on Jun 17th from all timeshare resorts will be placed into the points Trust. Going forward, this is all Marriott will sell. You will no longer be able to buy a specific resort, size, season, etc via retail. The only decision when buying Marriott retail will be how many points to buy. The MF for those points will be based on the overall Trust holdings.

5. Points received for converting week will vary based on what season/week you own.

6. Point requirements for reservations will vary per night, size, location, week of the year, etc... Marriott will manage point values within the inventory similar to cash values for nightly hotel rentals.

7. Owners who trade under the old weeks system will continue to control which reservations they relinquish to II. I was told that Marriott has learned from the mistake Starwood made. They will not interfere with owner deposits.

8. It appears that developer inventory units will be converted and stored in the Marriott point system for points owners, rather than the bulk banking into II as we've frequently seen in the past. This could be bad news for those not in the points system and encouragement to join it. The point system will be prepped on day one each year with lots of great availability from developer and unsold inventory weeks.

Based on #5 & #6, there will be scenarios where an existing platinum week owner may convert into points that is worth less than the points cost of a week during the highest demand week and worth more than the points cost of a week during the lowest demand week of that season.

The point system is designed to appeal to owners of non-lockoff two bedroom and/or high conversion value weeks, who can get additional nights by staying off season or in smaller units or during lower demand week nights. The point system is designed to appeal to owners of off-season or smaller unit weeks who will be happy to receive fewer nights in exchange for a prime time stay, or bigger unit, or view upgrade, etc. Most significantly, the point system is designed for Marriott, who will be able to convert smaller resorts / hotel rooms to points and increase the breadth of the points system network & the diversity of the Trust without the significant capital costs of building future, massive, villa style timeshare resorts. Marriott will start start to manage timeshares more like hotels and get access to more empty room nights that in the past they could not touch.

I predict many owners (non-Tuggers) will like this new system. I do not. I expect this system will make things more 'fair'. By 'fair', I mean that owners like me who plan early and often will have far less opportunity to benefit from the failing of owners who don't. In a word, I say !$#@+!.

Thanks so much for sharing the newest info...So am I understanding this right, that each year each member who converts will decide to use points or weeks? So when they are using weeks it could still be to trade through II? or will there be some way points trade into II that might be favorable as a decision?? More info just leads to more questions

If it is a choice, that could still have people grabbing the "best" weeks to trade, rather than use their points. Also, I suppose that the choice is premade if one chooses to borrow from another year...let's see, also, if one only chooses points every couple of years, I suspect they are still paying that yearly fee on top of their MF's (!?!) :annoyed: And a II fee as well?? Just wondering how many layers this goes. Will there be special extra fees when using less than a week? or getting two lesser weeks for one plat. week?? Surely, they have fees there as well...I guess now you do pay for each reservation in II, not just the yearly membership, so now we do this twice to belong to the inner Marriott trades and the non-Marriott trading through II or elsewhere??

And of course, I'm sure the only way we maintain home resort advantage/legacy is to do it now rather than later...

 

[mightywyrm]

... On second thought, why not stick with cash?

Bear in mind, as I'm sure you're aware, that points (and poker chips) spend a lot more easily than dollars. It's part of the design.

 

[l2trade]

To me that's exchanging "down".

I own a Bentley and enter it into a car exchange where I get to rent 2 Hondas and 2 Toyotas for a total of 4 weeks for 1 week in my Bentley.

This is my Point - exchanging down is easy, exchanging up is impossible.

Exchanging up will be easy too. You will give up your Honda week for one night in a Bentley. That may seem fair to most, but is not a game I want to play. Boring! Without the lure of great trades, free upgrades, splitting, bonus weeks... Well, without all of that, I would rather rent. I love to trade and if the system gets to a stage where everything is just like points and points are just like dollars... Well, with that, I would rather just play with real dollars. There will always be new bargains to find when you play with real dollars. The only point for me in converting my currency into pre-paid vacations is if I can generate great results and cost savings for having done so. I realize people buy for other reasons. For me, it all boils down to the money. Buying my timeshares, I choose value & commitment over convenience & flexibility. Let's face it, owning a timeshare is always a question of commitment, and commitments are rarely easy, convenient or flexible. Cash is King!

 

[DanCali]

Inventory control will keep that from happening for weeks owners. Marriott will always have to keep the number of contracted weeks owned by deeded weeks based owners.

I agree that's the way to go... my exaple was an illustration in response to Susan why inventory has to be separated. I do not think people will not get locked out of their season.

So back to the original question... which weeks? Keeping the "number of weeks ontracted by deeded weeks" should hardly be reassuring when considering this problem. An equal proportion of every checkin day? Or something less equitable?

 

[PerryM]

Exchanging up will be easy too. You will give up your Honda week for one night in a Bentley. That may seem fair to most, but is not a game I want to play. Boring! Without the lure of great trades, free upgrades, splitting, bonus weeks... Well, without all of that, I would rather rent. I love to trade and if the system gets to a stage where everything is just like points and points are just like dollars... Well, with that, I would rather just play with real dollars. There will always be new bargains to find when you play with real dollars. The only point for me in converting my currency into pre-paid vacations is if I can generate great results and cost savings for having done so. I realize people buy for other reasons. For me, it all boils down to the money. Buying my timeshares, I choose value & commitment over convenience & flexibility. Let's face it, owning a timeshare is always a question of commitment, and commitments are rarely easy, convenient or flexible. Cash is King!

Well I don't see Marriott getting into nightly rentals, thus the only way to "upgrade" is to pull future Points into this year or to combine Points but the net net is ALWAYS exchanging downward.

In my WM account I never had deeds to begin with and bought Points (Credits). But new resorts cost way more than 20 year old resorts.

 

[l2trade]

Thanks so much for sharing the newest info...So am I understanding this right, that each year each member who converts will decide to use points or weeks?

Yes, that is correct.

So when they are using weeks it could still be to trade through II? or will there be some way points trade into II that might be favorable as a decision?? More info just leads to more questions

You can trade through II with your weeks or points, whichever you chose for that year. Someone who owns a 2 bedroom non-lockoff platinum week in a high demand location may prefer to trade with points in II. This will offer them the opportunity to stretch the value of their week into more than one week. In a sense, it allows them to virtually downgrade into more weeks. Conversely, someone who owns a cheap one bedroom gold week may choose to trade with weeks in II for the shot at a free upgrade.

If it is a choice, that could still have people grabbing the "best" weeks to trade, rather than use their points. Also, I suppose that the choice is premade if one chooses to borrow from another year...let's see, also, if one only chooses points every couple of years, I suspect they are still paying that yearly fee on top of their MF's (!?!) :annoyed: And a II fee as well?? Just wondering how many layers this goes. Will there be special extra fees when using less than a week? or getting two lesser weeks for one plat. week?? Surely, they have fees there as well...I guess now you do pay for each reservation in II, not just the yearly membership, so now we do this twice to belong to the inner Marriott trades and the non-Marriott trading through II or elsewhere??

I am assured that owners will still have the same rights to the old system as before. I do not know enough details about fees within the new system to reliably share it. We should find out all the point values and fee details starting on Jun 20th. It is too late to pry again tonight with my contact. While the sales folks are mostly trained on the high level changes, further staff training is planned for Thu-Sat and additional pricing details will be released on need-to-know.

And of course, I'm sure the only way we maintain home resort advantage/legacy is to do it now rather than later...

The only way to maintain home resort advantage/legacy is to already own it now or sign contract with your cash deposit by EOD Jun 16th. IMHO, if you are not already an owner, save your money. It is too late and not a wise investment until all these changes play out.

 

[dougp26364]

I never said Marriott resale values would go to $1. I said DRI resales values are worth less than $1. I agree DRI resort and management quality is much lower and complaints against them are high. You are right. The comparisons mostly end at weeks based ownership, points overlay and trust based ownership. And, I am right to hold onto my personal opinion that I like the older product better than the new. The new product is too granular and flexible to allow for analytical and patient planners like myself to benefit from the seasonal & unit size & timing imbalances common in a week for week 3rd party exchange system. My hope is that enough existing Marriott owners stick with the old weeks system that it doesn't squash my II trading fortunes.

I'm curious how you can say that you prefer the current Marriott product to the new when there is no new yet?

If you go by what Perry predicts, no one will see a benefit to changing. The thing is, it's all speculation right now.

If you're one of those unwilling to even consider something new then that's fine. No one has said you must consider changing. Unfortunately a change is coming whether despite our opinions. At this point, we're just hashing out the possibitities and what we think owners should look for in the new system. If you're aware of advantages and pitfalls before hand, it should make it easier to ask the questions that are important to you in order to analyze whether or not this is the right product for you.

IMHO, even if an owner decides to remain in the weeks based program, nothing major will change. I believe one will still be able to either use their week as they have in the past or exchange through I.I. I believe the Marriott priority will remain and I believe that for the forseable future, there will be plenty of weeks based inventory to exchange into.

I am concerned that over time this could change. That's weeks based inventory will become less and that the newer resorts, being 100% points, will be more difficult for weeks based owners to exchange into. I have no facts to base the concern on but, I see it as a potential issue 10 or 15 years down the road. So the question in my mind is, will I be upset at that point/age or will I continue to be content with the current 50 Marriott resorts that should still have adaquate weeks inventory.

Remember, if Marriott tries to lock-out resale owners, that only means that all the weeks sold via the re-sale market will go into the weeks based inventory. Older resorts may remain mostly weeks based and be available for exchange for the length of my lifetime.

 

[l2trade]

Well I don't see Marriott getting into nightly rentals, thus the only way to "upgrade" is to pull future Points into this year or to combine Points but the net net is ALWAYS exchanging downward.

In my WM account I never had deeds to begin with and bought Points (Credits). But new resorts cost way more than 20 year old resorts.

Yes, Marriott is getting into nightly rentals. The new point system is designed to eliminate the Fri-Sun only check-in days. Owners will be able to book stays for less than one week. I do not know what the minimum night stay requirement is. I forgot if I asked that question. I am thinking (guessing) it is two night minimum?

 

[taffy19]

Read This

The New Marriott Timeshare Organization

It’s official folks – the name of the new timeshare division of Marriott is “Marriott Vacation Club Destinations” which will be launched on Monday, June 21, 2010.
The website will be: www.MarriottVacationClubDestinations.com

http://www.timesharewizard.com/marriott-vacation-club-destinations.html

 

[dougp26364]

To me that's exchanging "down".

I own a Bentley and enter it into a car exchange where I get to rent 2 Hondas and 2 Toyotas for a total of 4 weeks for 1 week in my Bentley.

This is my Point - exchanging down is easy, exchanging up is impossible.

No it's not. I can do it anytime I want with both HGVC and DRI. If I want a 2 bedroom ocean front in HHV, all I have to do is save points from one year to the next or borrow points from the next year. If I want to stay in a penthouse unit at my home resort, I can do it the same way. I paid for 7,000 points and that's the number of points I can use. If I want the more point-expensive units I can either buy them or manipulate the system to work for me. But it IS fair and you CAN trade up. Heck, you even gave an example of how you traded up using 4,000 Worldmark points to get a 2 bedroom Beachplace Towers. You even stated it was a major trade up in value. How you can say that you can't trade up is beyond me. You just have to know how to work the new system. You and I both know how owners can do this and, after the new Marriott system comes out, TUGGERS will be discussing with each other how to do it with Marriott's system.

What you're talking about is being able to scam the system by trading a lower value for a higher value. You and I have been doing that with the weeks based exchange system for years. Well my friend, those days may be coming to an end with Marriott. We've been able to milk the system at others expense. We bought cheap and traded expensive while others bought expensive but have to trade down. Owners in a points based system get EXACTLY what they paid for.

You paid for a resale Gold Summit Watch week and that's what you'll get in the new system.......if you join the new system. I've been trading a silver season studio week at Ocean Pointe for 2 bedroom Platinum weeks at Willow Ridge in Branson. Are those exchanges fair? Not really. I just had enough knowledge to know how to work the system. Points, on the other hand, will be fair.

 

[PerryM]

Say What?

Some quick notes about the new system rolling out Jun 20th -
1. Existing owners will retain home resort deed, same MF commitments from that home resort and the ability to trade under the old week rules, regardless if they upgrade to the points program or not.

2. If existing owners upgrade their ownership to the points program, this will be an annual decision to use either weeks or points. An owner may convert to points one year and decide to stick with weeks the next.

3. The upgrade cost will be lowest during the introductory period. Owners who upgrade after that period will pay more to do so.

4. All unsold Marriott inventory on Jun 17th from all timeshare resorts will be placed into the points Trust. Going forward, this is all Marriott will sell. You will no longer be able to buy a specific resort, size, season, etc via retail. The only decision when buying Marriott retail will be how many points to buy. The MF for those points will be based on the overall Trust holdings.

5. Points received for converting week will vary based on what season/week you own.

6. Point requirements for reservations will vary per night, size, location, week of the year, etc... Marriott will manage point values within the inventory similar to cash values for nightly hotel rentals.

7. Owners who trade under the old weeks system will continue to control which reservations they relinquish to II. I was told that Marriott has learned from the mistake Starwood made. They will not interfere with owner deposits.

8. It appears that developer inventory units will be converted and stored in the Marriott point system for points owners, rather than the bulk banking into II as we've frequently seen in the past. This could be bad news for those not in the points system and encouragement to join it. The point system will be prepped on day one each year with lots of great availability from developer and unsold inventory weeks.

Based on #5 & #6, there will be scenarios where an existing platinum week owner may convert into points that is worth less than the points cost of a week during the highest demand week and worth more than the points cost of a week during the lowest demand week of that season.

The point system is designed to appeal to owners of non-lockoff two bedroom and/or high conversion value weeks, who can get additional nights by staying off season or in smaller units or during lower demand week nights. The point system is designed to appeal to owners of off-season or smaller unit weeks who will be happy to receive fewer nights in exchange for a prime time stay, or bigger unit, or view upgrade, etc. Most significantly, the point system is designed for Marriott, who will be able to convert smaller resorts / hotel rooms to points and increase the breadth of the points system network & the diversity of the Trust without the significant capital costs of building future, massive, villa style timeshare resorts. Marriott will start start to manage timeshares more like hotels and get access to more empty room nights that in the past they could not touch.

I predict many owners (non-Tuggers) will like this new system. I do not. I expect this system will make things more 'fair'. By 'fair', I mean that owners like me who plan early and often will have far less opportunity to benefit from the failing of owners who don't. In a word, I say !$#@+!.

What is all the above? A WAG or rumors from salesreps being trained.

I don't see a Trust system in the above.

I'm confused.

I thought a Disney guru designed the system - this ain't no Disney.

This sounds more like Resort2Resort or RedWeek.

 

[DanCali]

Some quick notes about the new system rolling out Jun 20th -
1. Existing owners will retain home resort deed, same MF commitments from that home resort and the ability to trade under the old week rules, regardless if they upgrade to the points program or not.

2. If existing owners upgrade their ownership to the points program, this will be an annual decision to use either weeks or points. An owner may convert to points one year and decide to stick with weeks the next.

3. The upgrade cost will be lowest during the introductory period. Owners who upgrade after that period will pay more to do so.

4. All unsold Marriott inventory on Jun 17th from all timeshare resorts will be placed into the points Trust. Going forward, this is all Marriott will sell. You will no longer be able to buy a specific resort, size, season, etc via retail. The only decision when buying Marriott retail will be how many points to buy. The MF for those points will be based on the overall Trust holdings.

5. Points received for converting week will vary based on what season/week you own.

6. Point requirements for reservations will vary per night, size, location, week of the year, etc... Marriott will manage point values within the inventory similar to cash values for nightly hotel rentals.

7. Owners who trade under the old weeks system will continue to control which reservations they relinquish to II. I was told that Marriott has learned from the mistake Starwood made. They will not interfere with owner deposits.

8. It appears that developer inventory units will be converted and stored in the Marriott point system for points owners, rather than the bulk banking into II as we've frequently seen in the past. This could be bad news for those not in the points system and encouragement to join it. The point system will be prepped on day one each year with lots of great availability from developer and unsold inventory weeks.

Based on #5 & #6, there will be scenarios where an existing platinum week owner may convert into points that is worth less than the points cost of a week during the highest demand week and worth more than the points cost of a week during the lowest demand week of that season.

The point system is designed to appeal to owners of non-lockoff two bedroom and/or high conversion value weeks, who can get additional nights by staying off season or in smaller units or during lower demand week nights. The point system is designed to appeal to owners of off-season or smaller unit weeks who will be happy to receive fewer nights in exchange for a prime time stay, or bigger unit, or view upgrade, etc. Most significantly, the point system is designed for Marriott, who will be able to convert smaller resorts / hotel rooms to points and increase the breadth of the points system network & the diversity of the Trust without the significant capital costs of building future, massive, villa style timeshare resorts. Marriott will start start to manage timeshares more like hotels and get access to more empty room nights that in the past they could not touch.

I predict many owners (non-Tuggers) will like this new system. I do not. I expect this system will make things more 'fair'. By 'fair', I mean that owners like me who plan early and often will have far less opportunity to benefit from the failing of owners who don't. In a word, I say !$#@+!.

l2trade... not sure who your source is but thanks for getting this info.

This leads to a bunch more questions...

1) if you upgrade to points, is it a perpetual commitment of $169 per year + "inflation" (on top of the upgrade cost). Is there a way to get out if you don't like it?

2) The fee sounds Starwood-style. 60% more expensive but includes all you can eat exchanges? Will the II account support both weks and points or will there be a separate corporate account?

3) Does the upgraded unit retain that status upon a resale or will a new buyer be asked to fork over an additional upgrade fee (and thus we likely get dinged on resale values on top of paying our own upgrade fee)?

4) Any insight on the inventory questions raised in the last couple of days?


Is trading into low season in Orlando and the desert that big of a selling point when you can get those Marriott or Westin/Sheraton weeks as getaways for $300-$400 or even less?

Since I don't think NCV will be able to trade into Hawaii 2BRs using points, I think I'll take my chances with II... I'd also be more inclined to stay in weeks if I need to pay the conversion fee "twice," once when I join and once when I get dinged on the resale price if a new owner also needs to pay it (related to Q3 above). Conversely, I'd be more inclined to join if it was a one time fee for the life of the unit (a new owner would not owe it again) and I could get in for cheap. The reason is that such an arrangement may make upgraded units more valuable on the resale market since (i) they are both points and weeks - one can choose and (ii) the upgrade fee would be more expensive in the future if a new owner had to pay for an unconverted unit, but it's already been paid for a converted unit.