Speculation About Marriott's New Timeshare Structure [merged]

[tombo]

Boy, Dr. Phil could fill a season analyzing the writings on this forum.

My bet is that there's no battle, other than for the varieties of people who enjoy confrontation, or those who's lives may be so incomplete that they fill their day trolling the Internet and badgering and heckling business owners (or extorting compensation from business owners (e.g. a TUG Member going to XYZ Resort next week, and curious what type of compensation he/she could expect if he/she slips on a banana peel in the lobby during their visit). From what I've heard, Marriott will reclasify all unsold developer inventory and all new inventory into their new product form, leaving existing owners to decide on their own (without a gun held to their head) whether they want to "keep things as is (for them)" or voluntarily change (for a fee) the form of their ownership to the new form.

If this is true, I'm left to wonder how MVCI resorts will be governed moving forward. I wonder if the new product form owners will be members of their own "Association" and if the new owners will be represented on the existing HOA's by representatives of a new Association, with individuals designated by that new Association casting votes on the existing HOA's (e.g. unsold inventory at Shadow Ridge, where there is an existing HOA in place and unsold developer inventory).

I won't begin to speculate, but I will wait to hear/read credible information released by Marriott, not conjecture by non-agents of Marriott.

Boy could Dr Phil have a big time analyzing your post!

In numerous posts you give thinly veiled statements demeaning people who post here as people who have no lives, people who badger business owners, people looking for slip and fall law suit information, etc. In spite of your personal distaste for people who have nothing better to do than post on TUG, you yourself voluntarilly log on to TUG, you voluntarilly read these posts ,and then you post here yourself. Hmmm, what would Dr Phil attribute such behavior to? Are you lonely with no personal life? Perhaps as you said you just like to be confrontational, to demean others, to feel superior, or perhaps you post here because you are an employee of Marriott. I guess Dr Phil will have to sort it all out because to guess your motivation to come here would be purely conjecture which of course no one is interested in and unacceptable.

Wait a minute. As you espouse your aversion to speculation with little or no facts in your last statement in your post, in a previous paragraph in the same post you state that from what you heard all unsold inventory and all new inventory will be in the new product form. That is either pure speculation based on heresay, or you work for Marriott and have inside information. So are you personally spreading as you call it conjecture by a non agent of Marriott, or are you an employee/agent of Marriott? My guess is that you work for Marriott, but again that is more of that nasty conjecture that you so despise if it is done by anyone other than yourself.

By the way, before you brand me as someone who needs a life etc, let me give you facts and not heresay and conjecture. With regards to my personal facts: I enjoy posting on TUG, and in spite of that I have a career, a wife, children, I own many timeshares, and overall I have a great rewarding life. Sometimes I post here numerous times a day depending on my schedule and the topic(s) of interest, often I go weeks or months without making a post of any kind. Sometimes I post to ask questions about timeshare related topics, sometimes it is to give input from my ownership experiences at many different resorts, sometimes it is to debate a statement or thread that I disagree with (ex ROFR merits) or feel strongly about, sometimes I help people out with choice of car rental companies and things to do at places I have visited that they are not familiar with, and sometimes I make a post just because the urge hit me. I golf at the country club, I hunt, I fish, I have season tickets to see BAMA play football and attend all of the games including the National Championship Game we won at the Rose Bowl this year, and I travel as often as possible. I enjoy TUG and somehow I still find time to have a great life outside of the less than the 1% of time per year I spend on TUG.

I am curious, why are you posting on TUG? You seem to dislike postulations, speculation, assumptions, and yet you post on a site discussing a program that has yet to be rolled out. What else could be discussed but possibilities since no one but Marriott employees know for sure what is coming. I assume you post here with such disdain because you work for Marriott. That of course is conjecture and only you know your reasons for sure.

 

[Fredm]

Folks who seem confused and aghast with anything negative about Marriott just don't understand the battle we are in and the battle we are about to undertake next week.

Perry, there is no battle. You are shadow boxing.
Whatever happens next week is out of anyone's control.
Marriott cannot, repeat cannot, take away an owners deeded rights, and the reservation priority it provides.

Marriott can try to convince owners their new scheme is a better mousetrap. AND Marriott can make it more difficult than at present for existing owners to work the exchange system to disproportionate advantage.
But, that's the nature of the beast. Change is the one thing you can, and should, count on.

So, the fundamentals of a timeshare purchase should be the guiding light. Buy where you want to go, when you want to go.
If change prevents you from doing what you have always been able to, it will not be because you didn't know change was possible.

I understand perfectly why you will not like it. Win some, lose some.

We are all taking among ourselves here. Not to the 90% + who don't know what they don't know.

 

[brigechols]

Boy could Dr Phil have a big time analyzing your post!

In numerous posts you give thinly veiled statements demeaning people who post here as people who have no lives, people who badger business owners, people looking for slip and fall law suit information, etc. In spite of your personal distaste for people who have nothing better to do than post on TUG, you yourself voluntarilly log on to TUG, you voluntarilly read these posts ,and then you post here yourself. Hmmm, what would Dr Phil attribute such behavior to? Are you lonely with no personal life? Perhaps as you said you just like to be confrontational, to demean others, to feel superior, or perhaps you post here because you are an employee of Marriott. I guess Dr Phil will have to sort it all out because to guess your motivation to come here would be purely conjecture which of course no one is interested in and unacceptable.

Wait a minute. As you espouse your aversion to speculation with little or no facts in your last statement in your post, in a previous paragraph in the same post you state that from what you heard all unsold inventory and all new inventory will be in the new product form. That is either pure speculation based on heresay, or you work for Marriott and have inside information. So are you personally spreading as you call it conjecture by a non agent of Marriott, or are you an employee/agent of Marriott? My guess is that you work for Marriott, but again that is more of that nasty conjecture that you so despise if it is done by anyone other than yourself.

By the way, before you brand me as someone who needs a life etc, let me give you facts and not heresay and conjecture. With regards to my personal facts: I enjoy posting on TUG, and in spite of that I have a career, a wife, children, I own many timeshares, and overall I have a great rewarding life. Sometimes I post here numerous times a day depending on my schedule and the topic(s) of interest, often I go weeks or months without making a post of any kind. Sometimes I post to ask questions about timeshare related topics, sometimes it is to give input from my ownership experiences at many different resorts, sometimes it is to debate a statement or thread that I disagree with (ex ROFR merits) or feel strongly about, sometimes I help people out with choice of car rental companies and things to do at places I have visited that they are not familiar with, and sometimes I make a post just because the urge hit me. I golf at the country club, I hunt, I fish, I have season tickets to see BAMA play football and attend all of the games including the National Championship Game we won at the Rose Bowl this year, and I travel as often as possible. I enjoy TUG and somehow I still find time to have a great life outside of the less than the 1% of time per year I spend on TUG.

I am curious, why are you posting on TUG? You seem to dislike postulations, speculation, assumptions, and yet you post on a site discussing a program that has yet to be rolled out. What else could be discussed but possibilities since no one but Marriott employees know for sure what is coming. I assume you post here with such disdain because you work for Marriott. That of course is conjecture and only you know your reasons for sure.

After reading posts on this thread from EducatedConsumer, I decided to make use of the Ignore feature on this bulletin board.

 

[tombo]

Perry, there is no battle. You are shadow boxing.
Whatever happens next week is out of anyone's control.
Marriott cannot, repeat cannot, take away an owners deeded rights, and the reservation priority it provides.

Marriott can try to convince owners their new scheme is a better mousetrap. AND Marriott can make it more difficult than at present for existing owners to work the exchange system to disproportionate advantage.
But, that's the nature of the beast. Change is the one thing you can, and should, count on.
.

Again as I say this I am surprised, but I agree with most of what Perry has to say (are you keeping note of this Perry?). Marriott salepeople tell you that they are going to roll out a program that penalizes resale owners. Every Marriott owner will be hurt by this because whether you purchased retail or resale, if you ever have to sell what you own is a resale week. How would you like it if Ford or GM had a campaign to reduce the value of your car purchased from them or from a used car lot? How about if ford said we are doing upgrades on all 2000 to 2010 ford vehicles at a cost of $3000 per car and if you don't upgrade we won't allow you to trade them in on a new car, we won't honor the warranty, and we will have your car red flagged in our computer so every service dept in the country will know that you didn't upgrade by your VIN? On top of that ford would proclaim to every person that comes on their lot that the vehicles which haven't been upgraded are worth a lot less than thos which have been upgraded, and they told everyone that the upgraded cars would be treated better by service dpts and dealerships all across the US. Would you feel loyal to them even though they are trying to kill the value of what they originally sold you? Well Marriott is trying to kill the value of the marriott product they have sold for decades, and nothing is right about that.

As far as the points syastem, this is to generate money for Marriott in a down economy at the expense of owners, pure and simple. There is no altruistic motive to help owners. The current system works fine and is what everyone payed for when they purchased retail or resale. if they wanted to help owners and set up an internal trading system they could have done so and offered it to members for a fee similar to what II charges annually. That wouldn't generate much income like revamping into points will. We all know that every time an owner swaps to points that is another week that you could trade for in the past that you will no longer have access to. You will not have what you paid for originally in a few years if marriott's point program sales are good and you have a very small pool of inventory to trade for.

Marriott's goal is to get enough people in points to where you will be forced to pay the extortion or else you will have little chance of ever getting a good exchange. It is changing the rules in the middle of the game and telling you that you can pay more money to convert or watch your access to inventory shrink more and more each year. It is simply wrong.

 

[Fredm]

Tombo, I agree with you. Marriott is doing this to benefit Marriott.
And, many existing owners will conclude that the ownership experience will be the worst for it.

Marriott currently has a great system. They change it at their peril.

I am not defending Marriott. I am just saying that it will be what it will be (and don't know what that is yet).

I DO know that Marriott cannot subvert home resort reservation rights.

 

[tombo]

Tombo, I agree with you. Marriott is doing this to benefit Marriott.
And, many existing owners will conclude that the ownership experience will be the worst for it.

Marriott currently has a great system. They change it at their peril.

I am not defending Marriott. I am just saying that it will be what it will be (and don't know what that is yet).

I DO know that Marriott cannot subvert home resort reservation rights.

Marriott had the best overall system of any timeshare system IMO. I hope enough owners say no to points so that it remains that way, but through marketing, limited time incentives to get owners to convert quickly, and through fear mongering with threats of price increase in the near future if they wait to convert and through threats of not being able to use their week anywhere but at the home resort if they fail to go with points, I feel sure that they will get plenty of converts, make a bunch of money, and damage if not destroy a system which has opreated very well for decades.

One of my smaller resorts had unsold and HOA owned inventory that they sold to a greedy developer looking to make money of off existing owners by selling points, so I have been through the sales pitches and threats on more than one occasion at a resort I own, but I never thought Marriott would get so greedy and employ the same tactics to fleece their current owners.

 

[timeos2]

Trading is completely different than owning. It's optional. Always has been.

As far as the points syastem, this is to generate money for Marriott in a down economy at the expense of owners, pure and simple. There is no altruistic motive to help owners. The current system works fine and is what everyone payed for when they purchased retail or resale. if they wanted to help owners and set up an internal trading system they could have done so and offered it to members for a fee similar to what II charges annually.

What owners "paid" for the existing trade system is what it is worth. Zero. If they choose to use it they pay to be a member & for each exchange. What Marriott will likely offer is an OPTION for a different system of exchange which, surprise, would cost them to be a member and may or may not carry a per exchange fee. What will it cost them to be offered that? Same as II. Nothing.

What owners paid for was the deeded ownership & the associated use rights at the resort. Trading was is and will remain an optional item that they paid nothing for unless they choose to. How they bought (retail/resale) should have nothing to do with anything but, for their own reasons, Marriott has seemingly decided to put it into the mix. They don't have to and owners don't have to play along. They can concentrate on making the best use of what they bought & own. Trading isn't part of that cost.

If people bought thinking somehow trading was guaranteed it was an incorrect assumption. Marriott blesses at least one outside exchange company and may soon add another (themselves). Plus for the luckiest owners RCI is also an option. Those have the best choices. No reason all Marriotts shouldn't have multiple exchange choices but again for it's own reasons Marriott has decided to limit owner options for their own weeks. Pure power play because they can do it. As it isn't guaranteed they can do anything they want. You get only what you paid for & trading rights aren't paid for in the deeded sale.

 

[DanCali]

Again as I say this I am surprised, but I agree with most of what Perry has to say (are you keeping note of this Perry?). Marriott salepeople tell you that they are going to roll out a program that penalizes resale owners. Every Marriott owner will be hurt by this because whether you purchased retail or resale, if you ever have to sell what you own is a resale week. How would you like it if Ford or GM had a campaign to reduce the value of your car purchased from them or from a used car lot? How about if ford said we are doing upgrades on all 2000 to 2010 ford vehicles at a cost of $3000 per car and if you don't upgrade we won't allow you to trade them in on a new car, we won't honor the warranty, and we will have your car red flagged in our computer so every service dept in the country will know that you didn't upgrade by your VIN? On top of that ford would proclaim to every person that comes on their lot that the vehicles which haven't been upgraded are worth a lot less than thos which have been upgraded, and they told everyone that the upgraded cars would be treated better by service dpts and dealerships all across the US. Would you feel loyal to them even though they are trying to kill the value of what they originally sold you? Well Marriott is trying to kill the value of the marriott product they have sold for decades, and nothing is right about that.

As far as the points syastem, this is to generate money for Marriott in a down economy at the expense of owners, pure and simple. There is no altruistic motive to help owners. The current system works fine and is what everyone payed for when they purchased retail or resale. if they wanted to help owners and set up an internal trading system they could have done so and offered it to members for a fee similar to what II charges annually. That wouldn't generate much income like revamping into points will. We all know that every time an owner swaps to points that is another week that you could trade for in the past that you will no longer have access to. You will not have what you paid for originally in a few years if marriott's point program sales are good and you have a very small pool of inventory to trade for.

Marriott's goal is to get enough people in points to where you will be forced to pay the extortion or else you will have little chance of ever getting a good exchange. It is changing the rules in the middle of the game and telling you that you can pay more money to convert or watch your access to inventory shrink more and more each year. It is simply wrong.

The post couldn't summarize my thoughts better.

If Marriott wants to launch a new points program that's great. If it meets my needs and enhances my vacation experience at a reasonable cost, I may even join.

But all this can be done without imposing restrictions and rules that hurt resale values for all of us and if the system is good then it will sell like hotcakes. How about a points system that is free for any existing or future Marriott owner to join and costs $100-$150 a year...? That sounds pretty promising to me because it opens more options and may even enhance resale values (albeit there is always the split inventory issue). It will also generate millions for Marriott so it's a win-win. Any rule that differentiates future resale buyers from retail buyers has an impact on all 400,000+ owners by reducing the value of what they own. This is a true cost no matter whether one intends to sell anytime in the near future or not.

Tombo is right - if Ford, GM, or Toyota didn't service used cars thereby destroying resale values there would be a global outrage. In fact, Ford, GM and Toyota also have the right "to change anything not in writing at will" - except consumer backlash will kill them, so they don't. I guess the difference is that most owners are not aware of the resale values of timeshares... On the other hand most Tuggers are ao I just can't see how anyone would look forward to this change given our expectations regarding the impact on resale values.

 

[AwayWeGo]

Why Wait For Marriott To Join RCI ?

Marriott blesses at least one outside exchange company and may soon add another (themselves). Plus for the luckiest owners RCI is also an option.

What happens if RCI (say) decides to deal in Marriott timeshare deposits & exchanges without bothering to get the timeshare company to sign up in any way for RCI affiliation or RCI participation or RCI representation or anything ?

Owners can use or rent out their Marriott timeshares, or (I think) can exchange them through independent exchange companies like SFX & DAE. Why not RCI also? (With or without the acquiescence of the timeshare company.)

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[timeos2]

Why not? Why not indeed.

What happens if RCI (say) decides to deal in Marriott timeshare deposits & exchanges without bothering to get the timeshare company to sign up in any way for RCI affiliation or RCI participation or RCI representation or anything ?

Owners can use or rent out their Marriott timeshares, or (I think) can exchange them through independent exchange companies like SFX & DAE. Why not RCI also? (With or without the acquiescence of the timeshare company.)

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

They could. There is only their own requirement that the resort affiliate. There is no reason that they couldn't take an individual owners deposit if they desired. Strictly an internal (and shortsighted to me) choice.

 

[tombo]

What owners paid for was the deeded ownership & the associated use rights at the resort. Trading was is and will remain an optional item that they paid nothing for unless they choose to. How they bought (retail/resale) should have nothing to do with anything but, for their own reasons, Marriott has seemingly decided to put it into the mix. They don't have to and owners don't have to play along. They can concentrate on making the best use of what they bought & own. Trading isn't part of that cost.

If people bought thinking somehow trading was guaranteed it was an incorrect assumption. Marriott blesses at least one outside exchange company and may soon add another (themselves). Plus for the luckiest owners RCI is also an option.

Most here on TUG are educated timeshare consumers and we know that exchange rights were not guaranteed, but i assure you that they were implied if not outright promised every time you sat through a sales presentation. Verbal contracts are legally binding too, and I doubt that there is a single person who ever sat through a Marriott (or any developer's) sales presentation and was not promised they would be able to trade for other locations than the resort they were purchasing. Now Marriott is resorting to legal paperwork rather than honoring the good faith promise they have made to owners for years. You expect this type of bait and switch from most timeshare organizations, but not from Marriott or DVC (yes DVC is RTU and points, but that is how they always sold it, no pay me more because we are going to fixed weeks).

I know the reality is that you only actually own what is on your deed and in your contract. I know that it has been said 10,000 times here on TUG that you should never buy to trade, only buy where you want to stay and hope that it also brings you good trades. However knowing all that no one ever imagined that Marriott of all resorts would change the whole way the system works and charge you to keep having an option to access large amounts of available marriott inventory. Marriott blessed an outside company (II) and it is great that they are starting an internal exchange company, but to make you pay to convert to a whole different system or be left in the cold as other owners convert is morally wrong IMO even though I am sure it is legal.

 

[DanCali]

What owners "paid" for the existing trade system is what it is worth. Zero.

I strongly disagree with this statement (and the rest of the post).

I view the "true" value of a timeshare as the current (average) resale value. I view that value as comprised of two components - the value of using (or renting) the home resort and the value that can be derived from trading to other places.

To give an example - Starwood has Sheraton Vistana Villages and Sheraton Vistana Resort in Orlando. The former is "mandatory" (well, the first two phases are) and resale owners can trade via points while the latter is "voluntary" and resale owners can trade only via II. The MFs for SVV are around $1600 for a 2BR LO while the MFs at SVR are $500-$600 less. Yet the resale value of SVV is around $3K-$4K while the resale value of SVR is around zero.... Since one can rent a timeshare comparable to SVV in Orlando for less than MFs, the only reason it has resale any value is that it can trade into a 1BR in Hawaii or a 2BR at Harborside in the summer (subject to availability, of course). People pay for "trading opportunities".

You are right that using II involves ongoing payments. So does using a timeshare. But there is also an upfront payment to buy the timeshare, which includes an upfront payment for the "trading opportunities". If the 24 day II priority went away and owners competed for Marriott resorts with Starwood, Hilton, Hyatt, and Four Seasons owners I think we all agree resale values will drop. In some places (like Orlando) they may even crash. Hence owners who buy Marriott today pay for the II priority. They pay for the existing trading system in general.

As I pointed above, a new system can enhance resale values due to more options. Launching it with rules dedicates solely to destroy resale value is just wrong and counterproductive.

 

[timeos2]

Verbal simply doesn't count if there is writing

Most here on TUG are educated timeshare consumers and we know that exchange rights were not guaranteed, but i assure you that they were implied if not outright promised every time you sat through a sales presentation. Verbal contracts are legally binding too,

Actually in real estate, and most other cases, verbal contracts are not binding IF there is a written one. The written trumps anything verbal. It seems timeshare organizations not only know that but actually depend on it as part of the whole scheme. It is really despicable how all of them don't sell the actual product half as hard as they do the non-guaranteed extras knowing full well its all fluff - they do not in any way stand behind any of it as proven if you ask for it in writing. You will not get a single sentence. All yo own, and they know this too, is in the hundreds of written pages that comprised less than 10% of what they talked about. What a sham sales model and 99% do it (yes, even Disney although they are the best of a very bad group).

 

[timeos2]

Trade has no monetary value

You are right that using II involves ongoing payments. So does using a timeshare. But there is also an upfront payment to buy the timeshare, which includes an upfront payment for the "trading opportunities". If the 24 day II priority went away and owners competed for Marriott resorts with Starwood, Hilton, Hyatt, and Four Seasons owners I think we all agree resale values will drop. In some places (like Orlando) they may even crash. Hence owners who buy Marriott today pay for the II priority. They pay for the existing trading system in general.

Where in your purchase agreement / deed do you see the cost to trade? You don't because they "throw in the first year" when you buy retail - if you buy resale it's up to you to join RC/II or whatever or not. It's an option. You paid nothing for it & it has no value resale or retail. None. Does trade value play in resale value? Sure. But it has no value itself as it isn't a product or feature that can be bought or sold. No value. No cost. Trade rights are just there for the taking or to be ignored. They cannot be given and they cannot be taken away. They belong to the owner and transfer with any sale.

 

[SueDonJ]

... I guess the difference is that most owners are not aware of the resale values of timeshares... On the other hand most Tuggers are ao I just can't see how anyone would look forward to this change given our expectations regarding the impact on resale values.

Geeze, Dan, are you not reading anything I'm writing? I'm a TUG regular and an "educated consumer" (hahahahaha) about MVCI products and the consistently devalued resale market attached to them (which, btw, existed long before this rumored system.)

You and I simply disagree on the extent to which this may impact the resale market further. You say 20-40% of the value should be expected, I say we can expect only the ($1K ?) differential in initiation fees between developer-direct and external resales. You say II's exchange system works fine for you and most MVCI owners, I've explained in detail why Marriott's offering may work better for me based on my history with II.

I can certainly understand why you and some others would not be looking forward to this change, considering that you've been able to take advantage of a devalued resale market from the other side as well as II's extensive trade-up opportunities. It'd be nice if you could extend the same courtesy and try to understand others who already are aware that a devalued resale market will affect them to a great extent if/when they sell even without this new change, and who are not enjoying the same exchange benefits in II that you're currently enjoying.

It's all perspective, and what's right for some will not be right for all. Is it really necessary to completely negate someone else's perspective in order to bolster yours? I don't think so.

 

[SueDonJ]

What is going to be funny is the situation where you have a hard time getting a reservation to talk to a sales rep once this thing is rolled out. There is so much interest, information, and misinformation floating around that people who never attend sales presentations anymore (like myself) will be asking to attend one to find out how this program is going to work. It will be sad if they start telling us we have an opening wed at 4 or Fri at 8, and other than that we can't work you in this week.

Dang I wonder if we will have to offer the salesmen gifts to see us. I will give you a ham and cheese sandwich and a new bic razor if you will give me an hour and a half points presentation, but you must talk to me for an hour and a half minimum to receive your gifts............

I saw my salesperson last week at SurfWatch and she told me to feel free to contact her when the program is rolled out, she'll be more than happy to answer any questions. I'm not surprised because she has consistently been the antithesis of every sales weasel that it seems every other TUGger has come across in their travels - we've been very lucky in that she's an owner with knowledge of MVCI's products and she's never once misrepresented them to us.

No, she didn't answer any specific questions about all this. In fact I didn't ask, beyond, "have you heard anything?" She has but doesn't have enough details to feel comfortable giving any answers beyond, "definitely something, and I'm looking forward to helping my owners work through it when it's announced."

I know most of you think it's completely crazy, but my Marriott sales rep is a true benefit to our ownership.

 

[DanCali]

Geeze, Dan, are you not reading anything I'm writing? I'm a TUG regular and an "educated consumer" (hahahahaha) about MVCI products and the consistently devalued resale market attached to them (which, btw, existed long before this rumored system.)

You and I simply disagree on the extent to which this may impact the resale market further. You say 20-40% of the value should be expected, I say we can expect only the ($1K ?) differential in initiation fees between developer-direct and external resales. You say II's exchange system works fine for you and most MVCI owners, I've explained in detail why Marriott's offering may work better for me based on my history with II.

I can certainly understand why you and some others would not be looking forward to this change, considering that you've been able to take advantage of a devalued resale market from the other side as well as II's extensive trade-up opportunities. It'd be nice if you could extend the same courtesy and try to understand others who already are aware that a devalued resale market will affect them to a great extent if/when they sell even without this new change, and who are not enjoying the same exchange benefits in II that you're currently enjoying.

It's all perspective, and what's right for some will not be right for all. Is it really necessary to completely negate someone else's perspective in order to bolster yours? I don't think so.

First, I should point out that $1K is around 20% of the resale value in the case of many Marriott timeshares, even Platinum season (MGC, DSV I/II, Orlando resorts etc) not to mention that it's more than 20% for Gold and Silver seasons at many resorts. Saying it's just $1000 trivializes things a bit.

Second, I own at NCV which has only dedicated 2BR, so I am hardly one of the "trading up people" in the number of bedroom sense. In fact, I am likely to run into problems similar to yours with people locking off.

As I said before, I certainly don't see a problem with having a points system that increases trading opportunities. But if such a system were to launch why do you (or more importantly, Marriott) necessarily see a need to have a differential in initiation fees between developer-direct and external resales? This is the thing that will destroy resale value for all of us and that's what bothers me. Personally, I don't see a need for an initiation fee at all... no fee means more people will convert (if it's a good system)... means more recurring annual fees for Marriott. The only reason there is a fee is to destroy resale value - it will not enhance the system in any way...

 

[Dean]

Tombo, I agree with you. Marriott is doing this to benefit Marriott.
And, many existing owners will conclude that the ownership experience will be the worst for it.

Marriott currently has a great system. They change it at their peril.

I am not defending Marriott. I am just saying that it will be what it will be (and don't know what that is yet).

I DO know that Marriott cannot subvert home resort reservation rights.

IMO, Marriott doesn't have a great system, they have great resorts. Their system is limited in many ways including to full weeks, is tied to II and has no transparency. IMO, a good points system will be far superior to the current system. That doesn't mean they'll make good choices though I think they will. I really don't have much doubt about the desirability of a new Marriott points system, my doubts are centered around how to get from here to there and what happens if I decide not to participate either in part or altogether.

Marriott had the best overall system of any timeshare system IMO. I hope enough owners say no to points so that it remains that way, but through marketing, limited time incentives to get owners to convert quickly, and through fear mongering with threats of price increase in the near future if they wait to convert and through threats of not being able to use their week anywhere but at the home resort if they fail to go with points, I feel sure that they will get plenty of converts, make a bunch of money, and damage if not destroy a system which has opreated very well for decades.

One of my smaller resorts had unsold and HOA owned inventory that they sold to a greedy developer looking to make money of off existing owners by selling points, so I have been through the sales pitches and threats on more than one occasion at a resort I own, but I never thought Marriott would get so greedy and employ the same tactics to fleece their current owners.

As noted above, I think many, if not most, people involved in other systems would disagree. From a system standpoint I find all of the systems I'm associated with to be better than Marriott (RCI points, DVC, Bluegreen and an individual resort). A very good Marriott points system could easily jump to the top of the list for one reason, great resorts/locations. IMO, why they're doing it really doesn't mean much and I'm sure they will make some money on it but more on the increased ability to sell new resorts and existing inventory than on existing owners who convert.

However knowing all that no one ever imagined that Marriott of all resorts would change the whole way the system works and charge you to keep having an option to access large amounts of available marriott inventory. Marriott blessed an outside company (II) and it is great that they are starting an internal exchange company, but to make you pay to convert to a whole different system or be left in the cold as other owners convert is morally wrong IMO even though I am sure it is legal.

Marriott has been rumored to be going to an internal exchange system that might be points based for a number of years. Anyone on TUG fairly regularly the last 5-10 years would likely have seen this rumor. The same rumor has existed for II since around the time RCI rumors started as well on this subject. IMO, A few of the big players (in stature more than numbers like Marriott and DVC) could band together and create their own system and almost instantly take over as the leader in the exchange industry for quality timeshares. Disney already has a licensed and functioning exchange company in place.

 

[SueDonJ]

First, I should point out that $1K is around 20% of the resale value in the case of many Marriott timeshares, even Platinum season (MGC, DSV I/II, Orlando resorts etc) not to mention that it's more than 20% for Gold and Silver seasons at many resorts. Saying it's just $1000 trivializes things a bit.

Second, I own at NCV which has only dedicated 2BR, so I am hardly one of the "trading up people" in the number of bedroom sense. In fact, I am likely to run into problems similar to yours with people locking off.

As I said before, I certainly don't see a problem with having a points system that increases trading opportunities. But if such a system were to launch why do you (or more importantly, Marriott) necessarily see a need to have a differential in initiation fees between developer-direct and external resales? This is the thing that will destroy resale value for all of us and that's what bothers me. Personally, I don't see a need for an initiation fee at all... no fee means more people will convert (if it's a good system)... means more recurring annual fees for Marriott. The only reason there is a fee is to destroy resale value - it will not enhance the system in any way...

I look at it as, Marriott will charge whatever fees are supported by the product. That's it. Marriott has not historically been concerned with values on the external resale market, they're not charged by the contracts with doing so, and it won't be a factor for this system going forward.

If I was looking at it the way you do, wouldn't you think that as a developer-direct buyer I'd be screaming bloody murder that they've already gotten a good chunk of my money and who do they think they are trying to get MORE?!?! But it's simple - if they can, they will. Like others I'd expect the initiation fees for direct purchases to be rolled into the purchase price after the system is implemented, but I fully expect that they will try to tap into a revenue stream by charging those fees to existing owners at roll-out.

Same with external resale buyers, although the added incentive for Marriott to charge them more (if that's how it rolls out) is that Marriott will be able to tap a revenue resource that's not been available to them prior to this. I just don't see it as penalizing resale buyers the way you do, I see it as Marriott's thinktank coming to the conclusion that resale buyers who have realized a savings by purchasing on the resale market as opposed to direct sales, will at least consider the fee whatever it is as long as it and their purchase price is still less than the developer-direct fee. And again, if they can, they will.

Timeshares are a revenue-producing business for Marriott, and as long as MVCI owners continue to perceive usage value in their purchases the revenue will continue. It's not productive for us to think of them as anything more than that.

 

[DanCali]

Same with external resale buyers, although the added incentive for Marriott to charge them more (if that's how it rolls out) is that Marriott will be able to tap a revenue resource that's not been available to them prior to this. I just don't see it as penalizing resale buyers the way you do, I see it as Marriott's thinktank coming to the conclusion that resale buyers who have realized a savings by purchasing on the resale market as opposed to direct sales, will at least consider the fee whatever it is as long as it and their purchase price is still less than the developer-direct fee. And again, if they can, they will.

If resale buyers pay whatever initiation fee there is, just like everyone else, isn't that already an untapped revenue source? If they think I'm going to pay them more than others while losing resale value on what I own they either (i) have a phenomenal product or (ii) they are still on that Marriottjuana someone there smoked 2 years ago...

Marriott sales are based on referrals and word of mouth. For that you need happy customers. Rather than declare war on resales, Marriott can learn to coexist with them, just like car companies. If they take money from my pocket to enrich themselves that's personal to me. I guess I'll either walk away, or I can also just continue to enjoy my vacations at their resorts and tell people I meet in the pool area to visit TUG before they buy... If I talk 2-3 people out of a sale over the course of 1 week that's $100K in lost sales to Marriott. Over 2-3 vacations a year that's $0.25MM in lost sales. You are right that in the grand scheme of things $1K in lost resale value, which would be attributable directly to Marriott's policies, is not that much (I stand to pay much more than that is extra taxes next year with marginal tax rates and dividend taxes going up). In the grand scheme of things $0.25MM in lost sales is not that much to Marriott too... but take 100 owners like me who take it personally, and you can start to see why maybe they should care....

 

[SueDonJ]

If resale buyers pay whatever initiation fee there is, just like everyone else, isn't that already an untapped revenue source? If they think I'm going to pay them more than others while losing resale value on what I own they either (i) have a phenomenal product or (ii) they are still on that Marriottjuana someone there smoked 2 years ago...

All existing owners are an untapped revenue source at roll-out of a new system, but the thinktank has probably surmised from research that direct purchase existing owners will be far less receptive to the initiation fees than external resale owners, simply because their purchase prices were higher. I agree with you that Marriott doesn't have to charge different initiation fees, but I don't blame them if their business models tell them they can successfully do so if the product supports it.

And again I'll point out that your perspective as a possible seller on the external resale market is what is driving your opinion here, which is understandable because it's the sellers who will have to absorb whatever devaluation is inherent in this product. But from my perspective, I still think that it's a bit hypocritical for those who have taken advantage of the existing devaluations as buyers on the external resale market to now be so extremely concerned with devaluations. They've been able to buy at reduced prices into a system because no guarantee of residual value is supported by the contracts, yet now they want some guarantee? It's a little too much victim mentality for me.

Marriott sales are based on referrals and word of mouth. For that you need happy customers. Rather than declare war on resales, Marriott can learn to coexist with them, just like car companies. If they take money from my pocket to enrich themselves that's personal to me. I guess I'll either walk away, or I can also just continue to enjoy my vacations at their resorts and tell people I meet in the pool area to visit TUG before they buy... If I talk 2-3 people out of a sale over the course of 1 week that's $100K in lost sales to Marriott. Over 2-3 vacations a year that's $0.25MM in lost sales. You are right that in the grand scheme of things $1K in lost resale value, which would be attributable directly to Marriott's policies, is not that much (I stand to pay much more than that is extra taxes next year with marginal tax rates and dividend taxes going up). In the grand scheme of things $0.25MM in lost sales is not that much to Marriott too... but take 100 owners like me who take it personally, and you can start to see why maybe they should care....

Well, good luck with your campaign to discredit Marriott's product to the extent that you are responsible for hundreds of thousands of dollars of lost Marriott revenue. I maintain that if the product supports the cost to an individual, no matter how his/her costs relate to others' costs, then Marriott has a chance to be successful with this offering. Isn't that how sales of the timeshares themselves work already, that different people see different value in paying whatever their individual costs may be?

Remember, too, the laws of unintended consequences. If you and hundreds or thousands of others manage to discredit Marriott enough to impact their revenue in the millions, you will be devaluing their products even further by your own actions ...

 

[DanCali]

Remember, too, the laws of unintended consequences. If you and hundreds or thousands of others manage to discredit Marriott enough to impact their revenue in the millions, you will be devaluing their products even further by your own actions ...

You can view this in a different way... shifting retail demand to the resale market can increase resale prices.

But from my perspective, I still think that it's a bit hypocritical for those who have taken advantage of the existing devaluations as buyers on the external resale market to now be so extremely concerned with devaluations. They've been able to buy at reduced prices into a system because no guarantee of residual value is supported by the contracts, yet now they want some guarantee? It's a little too much victim mentality for me.

To me, the resale price is the true value of the product. I'd have no problem paying retail price if the resale price was the similar, but it's not because (i) it's not the same product (hotel points etc) and (ii) because the economics of the product to not support the artificial retail value (i.e. opportunity cost is too high and the price of comparable rentals).

Once I paid what I paid, I hope the economics work out. If resale prices go down, the economics of owning are less favorable - to all owners. For example, say a product is worth $10K and has MFs of $1000 a year. I knew resale prices go down by $5k in the next 2 years, I'd sell today (pocket $10K), rent for two years (say at $2K per year) and buy back the product in two years for $5K. Versus the alternative of owning throughout, I ended up with $1K extra in my pocket and saved two maintenance fees in the process - so I'd be $3K ahead. My point it that timeshare ownership doesn't make sense if the product depreciates, and certainly if it depreciates too fast. Deliberate depreciation by the developer is literally stealing money from owners.

I truly don't get the " Marriott gives no guarantee of residual value" statements. Of course they don't - you maybe get that with car leases, but other than that does anyone give a guarantee? Yet, I can't point to companies outside of timeshare developers that deliberately go out there and destroy the resale values of their products... It's one thing to stop exercising ROFR. It's another to make up new fees that destroy value.

I posted a long post here with language from Google's IPO prospectus. I think we'll agree it sounds quite gloomy and there were no guarantees that anything good will happen. Yet people still bought Google - and not with the intention of losing money... How do you explain that?

 

[scrapngen]

Again as I say this I am surprised, but I agree with most of what Perry has to say (are you keeping note of this Perry?). Marriott salepeople tell you that they are going to roll out a program that penalizes resale owners....

....Marriott's goal is to get enough people in points to where you will be forced to pay the extortion or else you will have little chance of ever getting a good exchange. It is changing the rules in the middle of the game and telling you that you can pay more money to convert or watch your access to inventory shrink more and more each year. It is simply wrong.

TOMBO, in general I appreciate your input and also your experience with point systems being put on existing TS's - sorry that it has mostly been bad.

One thing I have seen develop over this thread that I want to address is when you and others "forget" that we're disecting rumours rather than facts.
Lately, there has been a "certainty" that resale owners are going to get bashed hard and are being targeted in a separate manner than developer purchasers. This seems to be the primary "negative" train of thought that get in people's throats and make this thread sound to some like a huge Marriott hating group. (Well, that, and the the thread title LOL)

I wish instead that some of the one-time viewers who haven't followed this thread for a long time, (and even those who have) might understand that many of the posters here actually like their Marriott property!! And many are hoping that this new roll-out makes the crossover to take the best of some of the better point systems out there. And they value and use their extensive experience and knowledge to look at what this actually means beyond the marketing...

But few people are going to take this much time and energy posting "I am hoping they give us this great feature, and I am hoping they include that great feature." Instead, it is "I hope this worst case scenario doesn't happen, and I hope that worst case scenario doesn't happen." Unfortunately, as those nightmares get visited, people start to see demons on every side, and suddenly those scenarios start being called "facts." As in, this "fact" is now ruining my TS value and I'm not happy!!!!

Just my two cents here. I do enjoy a good debate, just want to keep the initial understanding that this is all a debate about rumors and gleaned possibilities rather than a final product. To return to the car analogy, it's similar to the car shows where some cars are the "future vision" and some are very close to what will actually roll out within the next season!! People point out what features they like and what could be very problematic...
Then the dealerships roll out the actual cars for the new year! Some things are just like the car shows, and some are never actually implemented. And sometimes there are surprises. Obviously, the car manufacturers are producing a product to make them the most money (!) and please their percieved target market.
And we are SO close to seeing the actual models on the floor

 

[DanCali]

Lately, there has been a "certainty" that resale owners are going to get bashed hard and are being targeted in a separate manner than developer purchasers.

I agree that it's all rumors so far.

These rumors are at least from as early as post 169 so hardly recent... and considering the source of the rumors there is probably genuine cause for concern, at least for the people who care about resale values of what they own.

 

[scrapngen]

...Then the dealerships roll out the actual cars for the new year! Some things are just like the car shows, and some are never actually implemented. And sometimes there are surprises. Obviously, the car manufacturers are producing a product to make them the most money (!) and please their percieved target market.
And we are SO close to seeing the actual models on the floor

Oh, and to REALLY complete the analogy...we view the model in the dealership. We kick the tires. We decide to buy because it fits our needs, or we decide not to buy. We might decide to wait and see - is the car a good value down the road? or is it an embarassment that the company quickly covers up - like the pacer, vega, citroen, or ultimately - the Edsel!! Maybe it's an ok product, but bad resale value due to maintenance costs, expensive parts, etc. Or maybe we just want to buy it in the second round, after those first buyers who made the leap of faith, or had good salemen, try it out and then share their opinions. Then we buy from the dealer as well, as there is no secondary market on such a new, different car...