Speculation About Marriott's New Timeshare Structure [merged]

[SueDonJ]

Our fundamental difference, Dan, is that I haven't considered the dollar value of our timeshare weeks AT ALL since purchasing them. I expect that if we sell them there will be some return but it's anyone's guess what that will be, and it's certain that it will be nowhere near what we paid.

They were presented to us as a vacationing lifestyle. That's it. Our sales presentations were not full of the "lies" or "investment opportunities" that some report on TUG happens. Our sales rep did not ever say that what we were considering purchasing would hold a certain value, or that we were "pre-paying reduced rates for vacations," or that we'd be able to "exchange anywhere in the world in like-for-like quality and size accommodations." In fact she was quite clear that the 3BR units we were purchasing that fit our needs where we wanted to vacation, would most likely exchange out to 2BR units because of the limited 3BR inventory in the system.

I don't understand anymore than you do people who invest money in a financial vehicle such as stocks when the future appears doom-and-gloom, but I expect the people who invest in stocks use a different template for value than those of us who purchase timeshares. Or at least I would expect them to, because not only are timeshares presented as vehicles which do not have a guarantee of investment dollar, they are quite clearly presented as vehicles which have a usage value ONLY. Or, at least, that's how they were presented to me. YMMV, although I suspect your contracts do not support whatever dollar value representations may have been verbally made to you.

 

[DanCali]

Oh, and to REALLY complete the analogy...we view the model in the dealership. We kick the tires. We decide to buy because it fits our needs, or we decide not to buy. We might decide to wait and see - is the car a good value down the road? or is it an embarassment that the company quickly covers up - like the pacer, vega, citroen, or ultimately - the Edsel!! Maybe it's an ok product, but bad resale value due to maintenance costs, expensive parts, etc. Or maybe we just want to buy it in the second round, after those first buyers who made the leap of faith, or had good salemen, try it out and then share their opinions. Then we buy from the dealer as well, as there is no secondary market on such a new, different car...

Well you didn't REALLY complete the analogy all the way, so let's do that.

After you view the model in the dealership - and potentially decide not to buy, you go home and discover your old car in the garage from the same dealer is worth 50% less because the dealer said they'll stop producing spare parts for it...

Oh well - the dealer never did guarantee in writing any resale value or that they'll keep producing parts. How can you blame them for wanting to make higher margins on the next gen cars?

 

[tombo]

We do no know anything for sure which is why we are speculating, but what we do know without a doubt is that Marriott is going to roll out a points program to increase Marriott profits, not to benefit owners. If the new points/internal exchange program was implemented to benefit owners there would be a minimal enrollment fee charged to all current owners and you would get a letter explaining the new program. If you liked what you read you could call an 800 number and enroll over the phone using your credit card. Marriott is instead rolling out a high dollar points program where the sales are handled by highly paid commission salesmen costing current owners 1000's of dollars to join. This is simply a new ploy to fleece existing owners since Marriott can't sell many retail timeshares in this economy.

As for marriott implementing a program that will devalue resales, that has been said to each of us who attended a sales presentation for the last couple of years. I have been told more than a few times that Marriott is going to come out with a new exchange program that will either exclude resale owners or cost resale owners much more to participate in than it will cost those who purchased retail. Whatever progam Marriott actually uses to reduce resale values, it is wrong, and it will cost every Marriott owner or their children money when they decide to sell regardless of whether the week was originally purchased retail or resale. Isn't this a great way for marriott to show their customer's how much they appreciate them?

 

[tombo]

Well you didn't REALLY complete the analogy all the way, so let's do that.

After you view the model in the dealership - and potentially decide not to buy, you go home and discover your old car in the garage from the same dealer is worth 50% less because the dealer said they'll stop producing spare parts for it...

Oh well - the dealer never did guarantee in writing any resale value or that they'll keep producing parts. How can you blame them for wanting to make higher margins on the next gen cars?

Great analogy!

 

[SueDonJ]

Well you didn't REALLY complete the analogy all the way, so let's do that.

After you view the model in the dealership - and potentially decide not to buy, you go home and discover your old car in the garage from the same dealer is worth 50% less because the dealer said they'll stop producing spare parts for it...

Oh well - the dealer never did guarantee in writing any resale value or that they'll keep producing parts. How can you blame them for wanting to make higher margins on the next gen cars?

I do like the analogy, really. But I've gotta ask - can you get replacement parts for every piece of machinery that you own? I sure can't, and it's the reason why my sewing machines have to be replaced instead of repaired every 8-10 years or so. (They get a lot of use.)

 

[SueDonJ]

We do no know anything for sure which is why we are speculating, but what we do know without a doubt is that Marriott is going to roll out a points program to increase Marriott profits, not to benefit owners. If the new points/internal exchange program was implemented to benefit owners there would be a minimal enrollment fee charged to all current owners and you would get a letter explaining the new program. If you liked what you read you could call an 800 number and enroll over the phone using your credit card. Marriott is instead rolling out a high dollar points program where the sales are handled by highly paid commission salesmen costing current owners 1000's of dollars to join. This is simply a new ploy to fleece existing owners since Marriott can't sell many retail timeshares in this economy.

As for marriott implementing a program that will devalue resales, that has been said to each of us who attended a sales presentation for the last couple of years. I have been told more than a few times that Marriott is going to come out with a new exchange program that will either exclude resale owners or cost resale owners much more to participate in than it will cost those who purchased retail. Whatever progam Marriott actually uses to reduce resale values, it is wrong, and it will cost every Marriott owner or their children money when they decide to sell regardless of whether the week was originally purchased retail or resale. Isn't this a great way for marriott to show their customer's how much they appreciate them?

But isn't there the slightest possibility that whatever gets rolled out can be BOTH a usage benefit to owners as well as a profit-maker for Marriott? I think so ...

 

[tombo]

I do like the analogy, really. But I've gotta ask - can you get replacement parts for every piece of machinery that you own? I sure can't, and it's the reason why my sewing machines have to be replaced instead of repaired every 8-10 years or so. (They get a lot of use.)

By law auto manfacturers have to provide parts for all of their vehicles up to if i am not mistaken 20 years after the last model rolled off the assembly line. After that junk yards have parts to be purchased to keep your vehicle operable for longer.

To refuse to honor weeks trades internally unless you pay $1000's to convert is more like the auto dealer having parts but refusing to use the existing parts to fix the car unless you paid $1000's to have the car upgraded first resulting in the car eventually becoming inoperable unless the extortion is paid.

 

[AwayWeGo]

Shux Upon OEM Car Parts. Go With Generic Aftermarket Car Parts.

After you view the model in the dealership - and potentially decide not to buy, you go home and discover your old car in the garage from the same dealer is worth 50% less because the dealer said they'll stop producing spare parts for it.

Some aftermarket car parts are of higher quality than the originals.

Shux, some aftermarket parts are the originals -- just with different labels, as when the automakers get'm from the same manufacturers as the aftermarket suppliers.

Plus, there are junkyards galore with serviceable used auto parts for practically anything on the road. (I mean, why install new parts on used cars?)

BTW, the car companies are still going through el shrinko. The Mercury line is being dropped. Plymouth has been gone for several years. Oldsmobile & Pontiac & Saturn have been discontinued. Regardless, parts for the Oldses & Mercs, etc., will likely remain available as long as the cars are on the road.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[billymach4]

New line of Hotels and Timeshare

Some aftermarket car parts are of higher quality than the originals.

Shux, some aftermarket parts are the originals -- just with different labels, as when the automakers get'm from the same manufacturers as the aftermarket suppliers.

Plus, there are junkyards galore with serviceable used auto parts for practically anything on the road. (I mean, why install new parts on used cars?)

BTW, the car companies are still going through el shrinko. The Mercury line is being dropped. Plymouth has been gone for several years. Oldsmobile & Pontiac & Saturn have been discontinued. Regardless, parts for the Oldses & Mercs, etc., will likely remain available as long as the cars are on the road.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

New line of Hotels and Timeshare

I just found out that Marriott will fall victim to a hostile takeover from a Private Investment concern in Japan.

The new company will be called Marriottsu.

We are in better shape already! Those Japanese can really run a quality ship!

 

[DanCali]

But isn't there the slightest possibility that whatever gets rolled out can be BOTH a usage benefit to owners as well as a profit-maker for Marriott? I think so ...

Sure it could. See the last few posts regarding a no enrollment fee program that gives owners more flexible exchange options for an annual fee payable to Marriott instead of II. I'd pay Marriott $150 a year if I could get like for like exchanges via instant phone confirmation and have the ability to do short stays (although "like for like" for me may not be what Marriott sees as "like for like"). For $250 a year I'd even enroll both my VOIs. Who knows - maybe they'll even be worth more on the resale market.

At some point, if short term greed bring about initiation fees and higher fees for resale buyers then that comes at the expense of owners in the form of lower resale values. That's much harder for me to stomach.

 

[tombo]

Oh, and to REALLY complete the analogy...we view the model in the dealership. We kick the tires. We decide to buy because it fits our needs, or we decide not to buy. We might decide to wait and see - is the car a good value down the road? or is it an embarassment that the company quickly covers up - like the pacer, vega, citroen, or ultimately - the Edsel!! Maybe it's an ok product, but bad resale value due to maintenance costs, expensive parts, etc. Or maybe we just want to buy it in the second round, after those first buyers who made the leap of faith, or had good salemen, try it out and then share their opinions. Then we buy from the dealer as well, as there is no secondary market on such a new, different car...

But this is not a new anything. They have not built any new Points only Marriott resorts. Any owner who converts to points or any new owner who buys points will stay in the same Marriott rooms and resorts that have been occupied by weeks owners for decades. Same resorts, same amenities, same room numbers, the same everything. The only thing new is that marriott wants you to pay more to continue to do what you paid to do when you originally purchased a Marriott week.

 

[timeos2]

Shoe leather and the world turns

New line of Hotels and Timeshare

I just found out that Marriott will fall victim to a hostile takeover from a Private Investment concern in Japan.

The new company will be called Marriottsu.

We are in better shape already! Those Japanese can really run a quality ship!

But my resale value wil be RUINED if they take over! Why? Because they make you take your shoes off before you walk in the unit. I ALWAYS was able to wear my shoes on the carpet and taking that right away is a slap to every shoe wearing owner in the system. If all Marriottsu cares about is clean carpet even at the expense of making 400,000 shoe owning and wearing owners then I guess we all know who doesn't give a **** about those poor owners that supported the resorts and the local cobbler for the past 20 years.

Sure I might wear resale shoes but they were good enough before Marriottsu took over so why not now.

This is an outrage.

 

[PerryM]

This place has gone totally insane without me.

I'll see you guys next week when all of this will appear to be child's play as 400,000 owners join in!

 

[SueDonJ]

By law auto manfacturers have to provide parts for all of their vehicles up to if i am not mistaken 20 years after the last model rolled off the assembly line. After that junk yards have parts to be purchased to keep your vehicle operable for longer.

To refuse to honor weeks trades internally unless you pay $1000's to convert is more like the auto dealer having parts but refusing to use the existing parts to fix the car unless you paid $1000's to have the car upgraded first resulting in the car eventually becoming inoperable unless the extortion is paid.

Except that with your weeks you will have the opportunity to choose to remain with the current II system and not elect Marriott's new option, which presumably many existing owners will do if they don't think that the new system supports whatever the costs are to join. That's not the same as the car companies not giving you any choice at all.

 

[tombo]

This place has gone totally insane without me.

I'll see you guys next week when all of this will appear to be child's play as 400,000 owners join in!

Normally we are of opposing views and every post I make has a counterpoint posted by you. For possibly the first time ever I agree with you and you are nowhere to be found. That sounds about right lol.

 

[tombo]

Except that with your weeks you will have the opportunity to choose to remain with the current II system and not elect Marriott's new option, which presumably many existing owners will do if they don't think that the new system supports whatever the costs are to join. That's not the same as the car companies not giving you any choice at all.

If they are succesful marketing the points you do have a choice. You have the choice to convert for $1000's and be able to trade for Marriott resorts or remain weeks and each year have less and less opportunity to exchange for a decent Marriott week. The choice is pay the extortion or watch your marriott week/car limp along getting weaker and weaker each year until it is barely functional. Two bad choices. Pay extortion to keep your car/week functional or have the week/car you purchased which currently works fine deteriorate into something that barely/rarely works like it used to.

 

[Dean]

If they are succesful marketing the points you do have a choice. You have the choice to convert for $1000's and be able to trade for Marriott resorts or remain weeks and each year have less and less opportunity to exchange for a decent Marriott week. The choice is pay the extortion or watch your marriott week/car limp along getting weaker and weaker each year until it is barely functional. Two bad choices. Pay extortion to keep your car/week functional or have the week/car you purchased which currently works fine deteriorate into something that barely/rarely works like it used to.

Yes, certainly in the Perry mode of doom and gloom. While I agree that things will change and it's likely the internal II trading preference will eventually go away, I don't think it's nearly as bad as you say even in the worst case scenario. It's also likely there will be benefits for those that don't convert esp for those that own something desirable like Platinum HH for example. The low predictions may be true for lower demand weeks, esp Bronze, but even then they'll just find their rightful place in a free market, no worse.

 

[SueDonJ]

If they are succesful marketing the points you do have a choice. You have the choice to convert for $1000's and be able to trade for Marriott resorts or remain weeks and each year have less and less opportunity to exchange for a decent Marriott week. The choice is pay the extortion or watch your marriott week/car limp along getting weaker and weaker each year until it is barely functional. Two bad choices. Pay extortion to keep your car/week functional or have the week/car you purchased which currently works fine deteriorate into something that barely/rarely works like it used to.

But there's another possibility if what's in that survey is followed closely. Say they do allow the option to join the points system for a 3-year period. We really did buy to use at our home resort but learned that we also enjoy exchanging, so I can see where we'd consider paying for Marriott's new option only three of every six years. If it's possible, we'd stay as is for three years of home resort and II-exchange usage, then pay for Marriott's option with home resort or "cluster" priority usage for three years, then back to as is for three years ... wouldn't that allow the current option with II to remain a viable alternative to Marriott's new system for many years?

 

[wuv pooh]

If I was Marriott I would exclude resale buyers from the internal trading system or charge em a premium similar to buying developer - just crush em.

Then I would let developer purchasers into the system for a small fee, say $500 to do the closing and rework. Then I would guarantee the people who bought developer and want to stay weeks or get out 35% of the current retail value to preserve their resale value, but you sell to Marriott who recycles them as points. Then I would ROFR every non developer purchased week when those people get fed up and sell out.

Kill multiple birds with one stone. Get most people in the new system, get lots of inventory for the new system, get rid of the resale market for good, and provide lots of new points to sell without building any new resorts .

 

[SueDonJ]

If I was Marriott I would exclude resale buyers from the internal trading system or charge em a premium similar to buying developer - just crush em.

Then I would let developer purchasers into the system for a small fee, say $500 to do the closing and rework. Then I would guarantee the people who bought developer and want to stay weeks or get out 35% of the current retail value to preserve their resale value, but you sell to Marriott who recycles them as points. Then I would ROFR every non developer purchased week when those people get fed up and sell out.

Kill multiple birds with one stone. Get most people in the new system, get lots of inventory for the new system, get rid of the resale market for good, and provide lots of new points to sell without building any new resorts .

Okay, but can we wear our shoes in the units or not?

 

[AwayWeGo]

Shoes Are OK.

Okay, but can we wear our shoes in the units or not?

Yes -- but you have to drive to the timeshare in a car equipped with aftermarket parts.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[catharsis]

Seeking a conclusion.

Some hypotheses/assumptions first.

1. Marriott announce a Points-based system next week.

2. This system is optional, can be joined for US$169 per year, and membership includes 'group' II membership of some sort.

3. Points can be used (subject to conditions) to buy individual nights, weekends etc. subject to EXACTLY the restrictions already in-place in the AP program (IIRC individual nights 30 days in advance, and 3-day breaks 3 months in advance only)

My questions

Is that a welcome or unwelcome development ? (I know individual users will make decisions based upon valuations of their weeks, but overall is it a 'Bad Thing'?)

I've read all 83 pages, and while I lean toward Perry's mindset I'm wondering at whether the 'basic' changes above are really significant enought to cause problems?


(also, is there any reason apart from spite on Marriott's part why they would not allow re-sale owners to participate in this program?)

Would be interested in hearing peoples thoughts based upon the 'minimal' assumptions above.

 

[dioxide45]

I've read all 83 pages

83? I only show 27...

 

[JimIg23]

Okay, but can we wear our shoes in the units or not?

I for one am against shoes in the units, makes the carpet too dirty. Just like smoking, they should charge anyone $500 if found wearing shoes in the units.

 

[aka Julie]

83? I only show 27...

You must have changed your "Thread Display Options" in your User CP. I show 83 pages also and mine is set to the default setting.