Speculation About Marriott's New Timeshare Structure [merged]

[DanCali]

Like John says, with a deeded week you will always have a home resort advantage. If that disappears within any new system that a deeded-week owner chooses to join, well, again, it will be up to the owner to know the limitations of what s/he's joined.

Timeshares are not ipods or ipads. They do not sell themselves. Selling retail timeshares is an art form that requires extremely high sales and people skills.

Now take some of the best salespeople in the industry and pit them against the 90% least educated owners. Do you think they stand a chance? Will they understand or be told what they are giving up when they are presented with arrays of options, packages, seasons, fact and figures, prices, discounts, new prices, good for today prices, points, incentives, flex vacations, free vacations and arrows pointing in 25 different directions? Let alone the unsuspecting first time buyer...

 

[SueDonJ]

Spoken like a lawyer!

I'm sure that will be comfort to all those Marriott owners in shell-shock.

I guess the first thing that pops into their mind will be "Marriott has every right to screw me over - the fine print says so."

So will the Marriott owners show understanding to the lawyers or show rage over a company that pulled the wool over their eyes - legally.

We will have to wait just a week to find out how understanding the owners are to new fees and loss of their deeds and loss of the old Marriott. In this environment I'm not sure that understanding of the legal paperwork will be their first reaction.

So tell me, Perry, where does "Buyer Beware" EVER fit in with potential buyers who are considering a purchase, or even with owners who simply do not understand what they've bought? At what point would YOU say that owners bear some responsibility for asking the right questions and understanding the answers, before they plunk down however much money for any Marriott offering?

Geeeze, Marriott hasn't had to twist anybody's arms or knock anybody's heads together to sell a good timeshare product up to now; my guess is that IF they roll out a new internal exchange system it will be of some value to at least some current owners. But the same caveat will apply then as should apply now - Know What You're Buying Into! Review all the available info and then ask your questions and then decide for yourself if you like what they're offering. That's it. It's simple. And it doesn't take a lawyer ( ) to figure out that it's common sense to know what you're buying.

 

[PerryM]

Gotcha!

So tell me, Perry, where does "Buyer Beware" EVER fit in with potential buyers who are considering a purchase, or even with owners who simply do not understand what they've bought? At what point would YOU say that owners bear some responsibility for asking the right questions and understanding the answers, before they plunk down however much money for any Marriott offering?

Geeeze, Marriott hasn't had to twist anybody's arms or knock anybody's heads together to sell a good timeshare product up to now; my guess is that IF they roll out a new internal exchange system it will be of some value to at least some current owners. But the same caveat will apply then as should apply now - Know What You're Buying Into! Review all the available info and then ask your questions and then decide for yourself if you like what they're offering. That's it. It's simple. And it doesn't take a lawyer ( ) to figure out that it's common sense to know what you're buying.

Let's get real here - 95% of the folks who bought from Marriott never took the paperwork to a lawyer to review. I never did and in Park City the right to rescind is 5 days so by the time I got home it was too late.

Folks bought from Marriott because they knew the name and trusted the company - they don't have a lawyer on speed dial as a general rule.

They were sold a timeshare and hours were spent explaining how it all worked BEFORE they bought. Nowhere in that briefing did a Marriott representative declare "Marriott has the right to change anything we want for as long as we want" - nobody gave that speech.

So Ma and Pa bought what was taught to them - a week based Marriott timeshare.

Now Marriott is going to exercise that little clause "Marriott has the right to change anything we want for as long as we want" and completely change Ma and Pa's definition of a timeshare as Marriott taught them.

Of course Marriott can do this to us, and of course Ma and Pa should have stopped their vacation and sought out a lawyer to review their documents before the right to rescind expired but none of them did.

Marriott will find out next week what Ma and Pa think of the Gotcha Marriott is about to pull. Will they understand Marriott's legal team or will the feel snookered? Let's find out.

If you look at all the political polls right now the American public seems to be really riled up with just about everything - how will they look at Marriott's sea-change? I don't know.

 

[SueDonJ]

Timeshares are not ipods or ipads. They do not sell themselves. Selling retail timeshares is an art form that requires extremely high sales and people skills.

Now take some of the best salespeople in the industry and pit them against the 90% least educated owners. Do you think they stand a chance? Will they understand or be told what they are giving up when they are presented with arrays of options, packages, seasons, fact and figures, prices, discounts, new prices, good for today prices, points, incentives, flex vacations, free vacations and arrows pointing in 25 different directions? Let alone the unsuspecting first time buyer...

I know you won't believe it but it really doesn't matter to me if Marriott is dealing with a first-time buyer or a TUG-experienced pro - Marriott isn't responsible for completely educating the entire population on every intricacy of how timeshares work. Marriott's timeshare salespeople have a job to do, which is to present the product in the best light possible in order to sell it. The folks who choose to listen to their spiel are responsible for their own actions - Marriott cannot and does not just reach right into their wallets and rob them blind.

Honestly, it's amazing to me the number of posts that I read here in which it's obvious that somebody paid a whole lot of money for a timeshare product that they just don't understand how it works. I don't get it, will never understand it.

Your iPad example is a pretty good one, by the way, but not for the reason you picked it. I don't understand the number of folks who bought that, either, without actually knowing what it could do for them.

(Obviously, if a Marriott salesperson completely, falsely misrepresents the product during a presentation in order to make a sale then I would feel differently. But the subtleties engaged in by the sales staff? Like saying, "you can exchange anywhere in the world," as opposed to, "you can exchange wherever there is availability, depending on an owner depositing his/her week for an exchange and whether your week has enough trade power compared to others who also want to exchange there, blah blah blah..."? It's up to the buyer/owner to make sure s/he gets the detailed info for every sales point made.)

 

[timeos2]

Only what you bought is guaranteed to last.

So Ma and Pa bought what was taught to them - a week based Marriott timeshare.

Now Marriott is going to exercise that little clause "Marriott has the right to change anything we want for as long as we want" and completely change Ma and Pa's definition of a timeshare as Marriott taught them.

Of course Marriott can do this to us, and of course Ma and Pa should have stopped their vacation and sought out a lawyer to review their documents before the right to rescind expired but none of them did.

Marriott will find out next week what Ma and Pa think of the Gotcha Marriott is about to pull. Will they understand Marriott's legal team or will the feel snookered? Let's find out.

The flaw in this argument is that what Ma & Pa were sold DOESN'T (and can't) be changed. The deeded rights paid for are protected by hundreds of pages of filings that absolutely limit what they bought, how it can be used and who administers it for them. The underlying product they paid for is untouchable by Marriott or anyone else.

You are mixing items that have no relationship to the rights purchased - things like trading, additional use periods or view assignments, how the ownership was obtained - resale or retail - into the mix. Those things were NEVER guaranteed - always optional - and thus are subject to the whims of the controlling group. You paid nothing for those and get what you pay for. They are optional, they are subject to change, they have no basis in any ownership so depending on them for the value you perceive from your ownership is the ultimate in miscalculation.

This whole thread has concentrated on those peripheral, non-guaranteed things that never should have been part of the purchase decision from the start. Yes people do that but they have to read the documents that make it clear what they bought & have a right to - those cannot change or be taken away - and what is being thrown in as "perks" or options that can go away at anytime and for any reason. Buy & own for the base items (own to use) and if you are happy with the value that offers you are a happy camper. Buy depending on the perks remaining to create that value and, as we see here, you eventually get burned and want to lash out that they are "robbing you". You robbed yourself by placing the value in the items you didn't buy, cannot control and are at the mercy of Marriott to supply as your value. It was optional, the new stuff is optional and no one has or will take away anything you paid your good money for.

Far too many have done the same thing but that doesn't change the fact that all you own is in the paperwork. Trading, resale value, views, etc not specifically listed are not part and never will be. They can ask money for any or all of it - or simply stop offering it - and you have zero recourse. Thats what you bought.

 

[PerryM]

The flaw in this argument is that what Ma & Pa were sold DOESN'T (and can't) be changed. The deeded rights paid for are protected by hundreds of pages of filings that absolutely limit what they bought, how it can be used and who administers it for them. The underlying product they paid for is untouchable by Marriott or anyone else.

You are mixing items that have no relationship to the rights purchased - things like trading, additional use periods or view assignments, how the ownership was obtained - resale or retail - into the mix. Those things were NEVER guaranteed - always optional - and thus are subject to the whims of the controlling group. You paid nothing for those and get what you pay for. They are optional, they are subject to change, they have no basis in any ownership so depending on them for the value you perceive from your ownership is the ultimate in miscalculation.

This whole thread has concentrated on those peripheral, non-guaranteed things that never should have been part of the purchase decision from the start. Yes people do that but they have to read the documents that make it clear what they bought & have a right to - those cannot change or be taken away - and what is being thrown in as "perks" or options that can go away at anytime and for any reason. Buy & own for the base items (own to use) and if you are happy with the value that offers you are a happy camper. Buy depending on the perks remaining to create that value and, as we see here, you eventually get burned and want to lash out that they are "robbing you". You robbed yourself by placing the value in the items you didn't buy, cannot control and are at the mercy of Marriott to supply as your value. It was optional, the new stuff is optional and no one has or will take away anything you paid your good money for.

Far too many have done the same thing but that doesn't change the fact that all you own is in the paperwork. Trading, resale value, views, etc not specifically listed are not part and never will be. They can ask money for any or all of it - or simply stop offering it - and you have zero recourse. Thats what you bought.

If the EOY folks are told to take a hike and god knows what happens to their resale values, I doubt they will feel kindly to any of the above points of logic.

Marriott painted a picture of what a Marriott timeshare was and that was way beyond what their deed says they own.

It's really up to Marriott to sell the idea of dumping everything they taught the owners and paint a brand new picture of what a Marriott timeshare is to become.

Then to charge them to do it.

 

[taffy19]

Will we see these types of posts on the Marriott board 2-3 years from now?

Several thousand dollars down, and a few more gray hairs it'll be back to:

"All you can really count on is the continued ability to reserve your own unit at your own resort for your own week".

Oh wait - Marriott may take away home resort advantage too...

This is exactly how I feel about it too. A floating system is too iffy as they can always change the rules unless you use what you own exactly without locking it off. Then there is the question too if you will get the week and unit you really want and the view with a floating deed or in a Trust. Just look at how many posts are writtene about this on the major timeshare developer boards.

I talked to the MVCI and II yesterday but couldn't get any information from them so have decided not to deposit my week and get the bonus week as everything is just too uncertain.

I can do without that exta week but what is interesting is that the bonus week offer expires on June 20 which coincides with the date that no more deeded weeks will be sold so I don't believe that all this talk by the salesmen are rumors only as they may not know much more than we do either.

Marriott did a terrible injustice to their customers to let these rumors go wild for several years because they have caused a lot of worries to people here too or the thread wouldn't have been this long. :annoyed: I feel better now I made my decision not to depost my week. The heck with that bonus week! I can always change my mind later as there is no hurry anymore.

 

[SueDonJ]

Let's get real here - 95% of the folks who bought from Marriott never took the paperwork to a lawyer to review. I never did and in Park City the right to rescind is 5 days so by the time I got home it was too late.

Folks bought from Marriott because they knew the name and trusted the company - they don't have a lawyer on speed dial as a general rule.

They were sold a timeshare and hours were spent explaining how it all worked BEFORE they bought. Nowhere in that briefing did a Marriott representative declare "Marriott has the right to change anything we want for as long as we want" - nobody gave that speech.

So Ma and Pa bought what was taught to them - a week based Marriott timeshare.

Now Marriott is going to exercise that little clause "Marriott has the right to change anything we want for as long as we want" and completely change Ma and Pa's definition of a timeshare as Marriott taught them.

Of course Marriott can do this to us, and of course Ma and Pa should have stopped their vacation and sought out a lawyer to review their documents before the right to rescind expired but none of them did.

Marriott will find out next week what Ma and Pa think of the Gotcha Marriott is about to pull. Will they understand Marriott's legal team or will the feel snookered? Let's find out.

Sorry, Perry, I'm not buying it. We don't have any idea at all what Marriott may be offering in the near future, for one thing, so it's foolish to be all doom-and-gloom about it. And I don't know where you're getting this, "Marriott can change anything on Ma and Pa MVCI Owners" because it isn't true at all. Marriott can't unilaterally change Ma and Pa's basic deeded week ownership without Ma and Pa's permission.

And I still, will always, go back to the fact that it's the responsibility of buyers/owners to know what they're buying. That means that in the absence of any blatant misrepresentations by the sales staff, it's up to Ma and Pa Owner to either flesh out the details before they're able to rescind, or accept after the rescission period that they're responsible for their own purchase.

For example - I love my Husqvarna sewing machine and the sales staff is formidable at the nearest dealership, but when the time comes to replace it I won't just go out and buy the latest model at their urging without giving it a test run and asking the right people - others like me who will actually use the product - how it will help me do exactly what I want it to do. Because if I did just run out and buy the latest model without any research, it would be MY fault and not Husqvarna's if the particular stitch I need 23% of the time isn't included on the new model.

If you look at all the political polls right now the American public seems to be really riled up with just about everything - how will they look at Marriott's sea-change? I don't know.

Oh for crap's sake. Are you kidding me?! The American public should get all riled up about whatever our politicians are doing or not doing that we think should be more or less important in the grand scheme of things. But whatever Marriott might do isn't on anybody's radar but the 400,000 or however many MVCI owners exist. Come down off that ledge, Perry.

 

[SueDonJ]

The flaw in this argument is that what Ma & Pa were sold DOESN'T (and can't) be changed. The deeded rights paid for are protected by hundreds of pages of filings that absolutely limit what they bought, how it can be used and who administers it for them. The underlying product they paid for is untouchable by Marriott or anyone else.

You are mixing items that have no relationship to the rights purchased - things like trading, additional use periods or view assignments, how the ownership was obtained - resale or retail - into the mix. Those things were NEVER guaranteed - always optional - and thus are subject to the whims of the controlling group. You paid nothing for those and get what you pay for. They are optional, they are subject to change, they have no basis in any ownership so depending on them for the value you perceive from your ownership is the ultimate in miscalculation.

This whole thread has concentrated on those peripheral, non-guaranteed things that never should have been part of the purchase decision from the start. Yes people do that but they have to read the documents that make it clear what they bought & have a right to - those cannot change or be taken away - and what is being thrown in as "perks" or options that can go away at anytime and for any reason. Buy & own for the base items (own to use) and if you are happy with the value that offers you are a happy camper. Buy depending on the perks remaining to create that value and, as we see here, you eventually get burned and want to lash out that they are "robbing you". You robbed yourself by placing the value in the items you didn't buy, cannot control and are at the mercy of Marriott to supply as your value. It was optional, the new stuff is optional and no one has or will take away anything you paid your good money for.

Far too many have done the same thing but that doesn't change the fact that all you own is in the paperwork. Trading, resale value, views, etc not specifically listed are not part and never will be. They can ask money for any or all of it - or simply stop offering it - and you have zero recourse. Thats what you bought.

Excellent post, John!

 

[PerryM]

Sorry, Perry, I'm not buying it. We don't have any idea at all what Marriott may be offering in the near future, for one thing, so it's foolish to be all doom-and-gloom about it. And I don't know where you're getting this, "Marriott can change anything on Ma and Pa MVCI Owners" because it isn't true at all. Marriott can't unilaterally change Ma and Pa's basic deeded week ownership without Ma and Pa's permission.

And I still, will always, go back to the fact that it's the responsibility of buyers/owners to know what they're buying. That means that in the absence of any blatant misrepresentations by the sales staff, it's up to Ma and Pa Owner to either flesh out the details before they're able to rescind, or accept after the rescission period that they're responsible for their own purchase.

For example - I love my Husqvarna sewing machine and the sales staff is formidable at the nearest dealership, but when the time comes to replace it I won't just go out and buy the latest model at their urging without giving it a test run and asking the right people - others like me who will actually use the product - how it will help me do exactly what I want it to do. Because if I did just run out and buy the latest model without any research, it would be MY fault and not Husqvarna's if the particular stitch I need 23% of the time isn't included on the new model.



Oh for crap's sake. Are you kidding me?! The American public should get all riled up about whatever our politicians are doing or not doing that we think should be more or less important in the grand scheme of things. But whatever Marriott might do isn't on anybody's radar but the 400,000 or however many MVCI owners exist. Come down off that ledge, Perry.

I keep seeing the "Marriott can't change the fundamental underlying ability to make a reservation and to then use it".

True, but right now folks find out that 5-seconds is about all the time they have to feel good about the above phrase. If you are a little slow on the phone, or slow internet connection, and don't have an atomic clock you might not get that reservation you're supposed to be entitled to.

Throw in the developer clamoring for those same weeks and .01 seconds might not be enough.

So I agree with the lofty thought that the deed can't be changed but in reality Marriott can now represent hundreds of thousands of owners against your quest to enjoy what the deed says you are entitled to.

What all the paperwork is all about is the ability to get a reservation ahead of the number of owners in your resort in your season.

That definition will now be extended to ALL the folks who belong to the new system and want what you want, but with a Fortune 500 company behind them.

 

[SueDonJ]

I keep seeing the "Marriott can't change the fundamental underlying ability to make a reservation and to then use it".

True, but right now folks find out that 5-seconds is about all the time they have to feel good about the above phrase.

Throw in the developer clamoring for those same weeks and .01 seconds might not be enough.

So I agree with the lofty thought that the deed can't be changed but in reality Marriott can now represent hundreds of thousands of owners against your quest to enjoy what the deed says you are entitled to.

The deed says that I am entitled to use a week at my home resort in a specific unit configuration during a specific time season subject to availability if I follow the stipulated Reservation Procedures by reserving on/after/before a certain date relative to the date I want to reserve, and if my m/f are all paid up. How exactly do you propose that Marriott will be able to negate that entitlement?

 

[PerryM]

The deed says that I am entitled to use a week at my home resort in a specific unit configuration during a specific time season subject to availability if I follow the stipulated Reservation Procedures by reserving on/after/before a certain date relative to the date I want to reserve, and if my m/f are all paid up. How exactly do you propose that Marriott will be able to negate that entitlement?

Marriott now has a vested interest in their ability to beat you to that reservation - that's what they are selling next week.

Marriott created the computer systems and Marriott controls the employees who now have a vested interest in seeing that you, the non member, get screwed. I don't see a legal clause anywhere stating they have to play by the same rules you do. They will become the agent for the owners and can use technology available to them.

Sure, if you want to ski Park City in August you will be able to get that week outside of their new system.

P.S.
I'm reminded of a funny story that is for real. On a WM chat room some owner wrote a php (computer language that runs this chat room) program to check last second inventory on the WM site. He was getting Friday, Saturday, and Sunday at local WM's all the time.

He foolishly told his story on that chat-room and everyone there wanted to become his best friend so they could do the same. I warned him that what he did was just stupid and he would soon learn the lesson of jealous WM owners.

Well someone turned him in to WM and WM slapped a Captcha on the screen that the php program was interrogating every 30 seconds and the program died - he had to do the same things we did manually.

Developers don't like their customers out foxing them...

 

[taffy19]

The deed says that I am entitled to use a week at my home resort in a specific unit configuration during a specific time season subject to availability if I follow the stipulated Reservation Procedures by reserving on/after/before a certain date relative to the date I want to reserve, and if my m/f are all paid up. How exactly do you propose that Marriott will be able to negate that entitlement?

Is it not possible that you give this right up if you agree to convert to the point system? Isn't that what DRI owners do when they join the Trust? Nobody can make you join so it is up to each person. The more I think about it, the more I decide not to join but they may not even ask us as we are fixed. The sales person told us that we didn't need to worry about it so she may have meant that we will not be asked.

 

[SueDonJ]

Marriott now has a vested interest in their ability to beat you to that reservation - that's what they are selling next week.

Marriott created the computer systems and Marriott controls the employees who now have a vested interest in seeing that you, the non member, get screwed. I don't see a legal clause anywhere stating they have to play by the same rules you do. They will become the agent for the owners and can use technology available to them.

Sure, if you want to ski Park City in August you will be able to get that week outside of their new system.

P.S.
I'm reminded of a funny story that is for real. On a WM chat room some owner wrote a php (computer language that runs this chat room) program to check last second inventory on the WM site. He was getting Friday, Saturday, and Sunday at local WM's all the time.

He foolishly told his story on that chat-room and everyone there wanted to become his best friend so they could do the same. I warned him that what he did was just stupid and he would soon learn the lesson of jealous WM owners.

Well someone turned him in to WM and WM slapped a Captcha on the screen that the php program was interrogating every 30 seconds and the program died - he had to do the same things we did manually.

Developers don't like their customers out foxing them...

I'm not sure why exactly you're thinking Marriott will do this - do you mean that they'll want to get ahold of high-demand weeks for exchangers in the new system? We don't know yet if this is an overlay system or a total points conversion system, nevermind whether or not individual owners will be booking exchanges through Marriott in a similar fashion to what's done now in II or if it will be as simple to do as home resort reservations are now. So it's difficult for me to think through as far as you have to Marriott being nefarious for specific purposes.

But regardless, there is language in the contracts that says all owners have an equal chance at reservation availability, in addition to the language guaranteeing A week (not a SPECIFIC week remember) for owners who follow the reservation procedures. If Marriott is able to jump in ahead of deeded week owners by using some souped-up computer program to bolster their new system, I would guess that would be in violation of the contract provisions and subject to challenge.

 

[SueDonJ]

Is it not possible that you give this right up if you agree to convert to the point system? Isn't that what DRI owners do when they join the Trust? Nobody can make you join so it is up to each person. The more I think about it, the more I decide not to join but they may not even ask us as we are fixed. The sales person told us that we didn't need to worry about it so she may have meant that we will not be asked.

Yes, anything's possible with respect to reservations if whatever new system Marriott may be rolling out turns out to be a total points conversion. But anyone who chooses to convert would, or should!, presumably understand that they're giving up certain deeded rights that would still be attached to deeded weeks that are not converted.

I have no idea what we'll do if/when they roll whatever out ... it's impossible to say yes or no when you don't know any details. I'm still thinking positive, though, and hoping and praying for a marriage of DVC's point system with Marriott's resort portfolio. That's my timeshare nirvana.

 

[dougp26364]

Is it not possible that you give this right up if you agree to convert to the point system? Isn't that what DRI owners do when they join the Trust? Nobody can make you join so it is up to each person. The more I think about it, the more I decide not to join but they may not even ask us as we are fixed. The sales person told us that we didn't need to worry about it so she may have meant that we will not be asked.

If you join a trust based ownership then you give up your deeded week. You own an interest in a trust or grouping of resorts and are treated as an owner at any of those resorts you're allowed to book. However, you STILL have the RTU one week at any of those resorts.

On the other hand, you do not have the right to a specific unit style or a specific season. All you own is an interest in the trust. The amount of interest is in the number of points you own. You can save/borrow points to book what/when you want if you don't own enough points. For instance, there is a presidental suite at Kaanapali Beach Club that runs somewhere around 40,000 points. I have no interest in ever owning that many points nor would I want to pay the price to own that particular unit. I wouldn't use it every year and it would be a waste of money. In a points or trust based owners, based on availabilty, I could save/borrow enough points to stay there on rare occasion. So, I don't own a deed to that unit and have no right to use it every year but, if it's available, I own in that trust and I have access to enough points, I can book that unit as if I'm an owner.

Then there are those in DRI like me who did not give up their deeds but joined their points progarm. I can book the presidential suite at KBC but, I have to wait until the 10 month mark. All owners in the Hawaiian trust can book that unit at 13 months. So, no real home resort advantage if you're a trust owner in that trust but, there sort of a home resort advantage for owners in a particular trust vs owners not in that particuar trust.

 

[PerryM]

For instance...

I'm not sure why exactly you're thinking Marriott will do this - do you mean that they'll want to get ahold of high-demand weeks for exchangers in the new system? We don't know yet if this is an overlay system or a total points conversion system, nevermind whether or not individual owners will be booking exchanges through Marriott in a similar fashion to what's done now in II or if it will be as simple to do as home resort reservations are now. So it's difficult for me to think through as far as you have to Marriott being nefarious for specific purposes.

But regardless, there is language in the contracts that says all owners have an equal chance at reservation availability, in addition to the language guaranteeing A week (not a SPECIFIC week remember) for owners who follow the reservation procedures. If Marriott is able to jump in ahead of deeded week owners by using some souped-up computer program to bolster their new system, I would guess that would be in violation of the contract provisions and subject to challenge.

Marriott is well aware that the #1 complaint is NOT II but reserving hot holiday weeks - just read this chat room for all the broken dream vacations.

Marriott knows what those units are and will snag them in order to serve their customers - the folks who join. They know that if they don't the howls will be deafening.

On the flip side, those that pull out their deed and convince themselves that they have nothing to worry about will find out what the computer term "Instance" means.

It's 7:59:59 AM CST the morning MOC owners want to reserve Christmas week 12 months out. They are at their PC and know they have a 1 in 200 (or whatever) chance of getting a 2BR over Christmas. 8:00 AM and they click the button for the reservation.

Seconds go by, then 30 seconds, and finally 1 minute 45 seconds later the screen comes back and says "No inventory left". What happened?

Well the Marriott reservation system, the same one you are showing on your PC, simply started an automated version and activated 200 Instances of it in .01 second.

You don't stand a chance.

Isn't this what some of you are saying "Buyer beware - the developer will follow the contract both parties signed".

Now this probably will be challenged in court and if Marriott has to hire 200 part time moms sitting at the kitchen table to be their agent they will.

Timeshares are like some of you say, it's about getting the reservation and that process can't be taken away but the developer doesn't have to work at human speed to get reservations...

P.S.
If you don't think Marriott would ever do such a thing - fine. Just have 10,000 members who now want Christmas at MOC watch their atomic clocks at 8:00 AM CST and click their mouse...

Just pull out your deed and keep telling yourself Marriott can't harm you...

 

[dougp26364]

Perry, can you name ONE points based reservations system with the abuses you think Marriott will pull if/when they announce their new system? I belong to HGVC and DRI and don't see any of the abuses you're so worried about. Does Worldmark screw their owners over the way you seem to think Marriott is going to do?

 

[elaine]

supply/demand--a similar issue in many points systems

If you have a high demand place/season that you regularly use, and if there is not going to be a home resort/owned season preference, then it is most likely not in your interest to change to points (assuming there will be points), b/c you are then competing with the other Marriott masses-ones who don't mind paying 2 maintenance fees to combine 2 mud weeks to get a summer beach week, etc.---this is the way RCI points works--points are points. And, if it is like other resorts that tried to convert to points, after the fact, I think we will find that many prime week owners who bought to use their week are unlikley to shift to points----just go a Marriott HHI or MB resort in July and ask how many traded in vs. use their week every year--and ask those owner how many times they have even even traded--I bet it is low. Thus, I wonder how many prime weeks will actually be available in the new point system?

 

[dougp26364]

The people I spoke with at Waiohai stated they didn't trade their weeks because they felt that they were always trading down. Some didn't really want to go there every year but refused to exchange and lose value. If those resorts are given enough points that those owners see value in it and, so long as they have access to their home resort when they want it, then they'll join. Instead of trading that 2 bedroom Waiohai for Orlando straight up, now maybe they'll have enough points to get an Orlando unit PLUS something else. IOW, Hawaiian owners might find a fairness to this system that has been lacking for a long time. It's the same fairness that Perry worries will make his Gold Summit Watch week less valuable to him.

I really think we're all over thinking this thing. Like I said, I own in two points programs and I'm aware of several others. I know of know points program run by a hotel chain where the owners are complaining about the phantom issues we post about on this thread. Sure Starwood owners are unhappy about their MF's but, I don't see them complaining about their points based exchange system.

 

[DanCali]

If you have a high demand place/season that you regularly use, and if there is not going to be a home resort/owned season preference, then it is most likely not in your interest to change to points ....Thus, I wonder how many prime weeks will actually be available in the new point system?

This is something that sounds obvious after you think it over for a while or read 1800 posts on TUG...

But, the average owner will be faced with a smiling salesperson and charts showing how their platinum week can get 4 weeks in Orlando or book several short weekend stays at any resort they want. Not to mention the arrays of options, packages, discounts, arrows pointing everywhere, bonus points, and huge incentives that come along with surrendering your week into the trust "today". We already know where that leads to...

 

[PerryM]

Perry, can you name ONE points based reservations system with the abuses you think Marriott will pull if/when they announce their new system? I belong to HGVC and DRI and don't see any of the abuses you're so worried about. Does Worldmark screw their owners over the way you seem to think Marriott is going to do?

I don't think there is one - doesn't mean Marriott can't be the first.

We will have to read about reservations next week and how Marriott intends to handle them.

Marriott can simply let all the members, with enough Points, make the reservations themselves or offer a concierge service where they do it for you if you're a Platinum member for instance.

Can't guess how Marriott intends to set up their caste system and reward folks who pay to become part of a higher membership level.

But just because no other developer hasn't offered the service doesn't mean Marriott might not.

P.S.
WM is a Point system where everyone is treated the same. (Well not really but the difference is so small as to be the same) Marriott already has a 2 tier caste system of Member and Non-Member and might have a third one for resale Member too.

You know for 4 years Marriott has been telling us "Better not buy resale or you'll be sorry" - I believe them.

I just see no reason to put on my rosy glasses and assume Marriott will play nice...

 

[puckmanfl]

good evening...

Elaine:

I am going to respectfully disagree. The proportion of exchangers (even with high demand weeks) is greater than you believe. I have exchanged into ski weeks at Park City and tahoe (2 every season)' HHI in summer, Hawaii and Myrtle Beach summer using 3 bedroom Orlando (GV) I traded into a 3 bedroom plat plus in Aruba this past year. I asked on the check in line "Who is a trader?" The 8 customers in front of me all waved their II certificates. The point is these weeks need to come from somewhere!!! They come from exchangers!!!

The myth of 99% owner occupancy comes from the sales force as they quote, "You can only get in here if you buy here!!!"

Trading and exchanging are definitely a major part of the equation...

 

[dougp26364]

This is something that sounds obvious after you think it over for a while or read 1800 posts on TUG...

But, the average owner will be faced with a smiling salesperson and charts showing how their platinum week can get 4 weeks in Orlando or book several short weekend stays at any resort they want. Not to mention the arrays of options, packages, discounts, arrows pointing everywhere, bonus points, and huge incentives that come along with surrendering your week into the trust "today". We already know where that leads to...

I don't think so. Hawaiian weeks with DRI have far more points than does Branson, Orlando or Williamsburg. A Hawaiin owner of a two bedroom unit can use points to make multiple exchanges rather than getting just the one exchange from their unit.

Another thing you haven't thought about is how difficult it is to trade into a 2 bedroom unit at a Hawaiian resort that offeres lock-off units. What do the owners at those resorts do now to maximize their trade value? They lock-off that unit and deposit a one bedroom and a studio unit, making it all but impossible to trade into a 2 bedroom unit. With points they won't have to do that and everyone else can use points to get the two bedroom units that were impossible to get before the change.

 

[dougp26364]

I don't think there is one - doesn't mean Marriott can't be the first.

We will have to read about reservations next week and how Marriott intends to handle them.

Marriott can simply let all the members, with enough Points, make the reservations themselves or offer a concierge service where they do it for you if you're a Platinum member for instance.

Can't guess how Marriott intends to set up their caste system and reward folks who pay to become part of a higher membership level.

But just because no other developer hasn't offered the service doesn't mean Marriott might not.

So if what you're worried about doesn't exist with any other points based system, why do you believe that Marriott, a very well respected name in the timeshare business, will be the first one to screw their owners over? After nearly 10 years as a Marriott owner, I've come to the conclusion that Marriott treats me as well, if not better, than any other timeshare developer or manager of resorts. I see NOTHING in their history as far as timeshare developement to make me believe that Marriott will be the first one to insitute such a poor internal system and abuse their owners in the manner you have suggested throughout this thread.

When it comes down to it, you're interest's are self serving. You bought a cheap week to manipulate the present exchange system. When the system changes, so does your ability to manipulate the system. I'm in the same boat with my studio lock-off and one bedroom lock-off units that I've used all these years to trade up within the Marriott system. The difference is, I can accept that change is a part of the equation. You seem to think that there's a huge sign up at Marriott's corporate office encouraging Marriott employee's to screw Perry and his resale purchased Gold week at Summit Watch. Marriott is NOT out to get you. They will, however, need to keep up with the changing times in order to stay competitive. IMHO, this change has been a long time coming and is long overdue.