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Speculation About Marriott's New Timeshare Structure [merged]

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PerryM

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The Marriott Whipserer.....

There will certainly be some "misfits" in the new points program. For the most part it will be because it is new. There will be changes made along the way as there has been in other points programs based on supply and demand. Certainly, the "misfit" situation allows for more sales opportunities; however, at the same time, Marriott (if they are smart) will very much be focused on offering a program that for the most part works. The last thing they want to do is introduce a new points program that has too many "misfits". If they did not have a focus on offering/maintaining the program so that it is whole, it will die quickly.

To the vast majority of Marriott owners this is all Greek to them and they will simply follow whatever Marriott whispers in their ear.

That message will be "Buy more Points".
 

tlwmkw

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You are all saying that they will just "sell more points" and put up the amount of points to stay at a given location. They cannot sell more points than they actually have timeshares to accomodate (meaning points have to be balanced by available time)- i.e. they can't oversell any resort (sell more time than is actually available). This was why DVC had to be very careful when they redid their points- Florida law is especially strict about this. I think if this new system does come about the only people who will really need to worry are those who are in a resort that has sold very little so far (Lakeshore Reserve, the two other new Fla timeshares, and perhaps Las Vegas) and those who bought to trade. I think many people, whether they are Tuggers or not, will be reluctant to shell out more $$ for something that they already paid a lot of money for and that they already pay high MF's on. Personally I think this is all a storm in a teacup and won't really change anything very dramatically. Who knows what will come?

tlwmkw
 

PerryM

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Just in time inventory is replaced with It Almost Works inventory..

You are all saying that they will just "sell more points" and put up the amount of points to stay at a given location. They cannot sell more points than they actually have timeshares to accomodate (meaning points have to be balanced by available time)- i.e. they can't oversell any resort (sell more time than is actually available). This was why DVC had to be very careful when they redid their points- Florida law is especially strict about this. I think if this new system does come about the only people who will really need to worry are those who are in a resort that has sold very little so far (Lakeshore Reserve, the two other new Fla timeshares, and perhaps Las Vegas) and those who bought to trade. I think many people, whether they are Tuggers or not, will be reluctant to shell out more $$ for something that they already paid a lot of money for and that they already pay high MF's on. Personally I think this is all a storm in a teacup and won't really change anything very dramatically. Who knows what will come?

tlwmkw

Apples and oranges.

Disney sells Points Marriott still sells weeks that then are deposited into their own exchange system they cooked up.

Marriott does NOT have to follow any accounting rules at all - they can simply adjust Points to make the whole thing sort of work. Some of it will be proprietary and no one will know how it works.

Look at RCI and an example of how this will work - but an order of magnitude worse. Granted they can't be so bad that multiple owners show up for the same reservation but beyond that who will know what's really going on?

Big, big difference and why this is a marketers dream come true.
 

GregT

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Marriott: Maui Ocean Club Lahaina Villas (3BRx5), Ko Olina, Shadow Ridge II, Willow Ridge, Aruba Ocean Club, DC Points HGVC: Flamingo, Sea World, I-Drive, Starwood Bella (x4), SDO, TradeWinds, Worldmark
For the life of me it makes no sense to stop selling timeshares and start selling Points in an exchange club.

Perry, that may be a first for TUG -- charts?? Very nice!!

Seriously, it makes perfect sense for Marriott (from Marriott's perspective) to start selling points, versus selling timeshares.

This allows you to resell what is already built, so you do not have new development costs (just pick and choose the inventory that you want to ROFR so you have low acquisition costs for your inventory) and you have the stable revenue stream from all those participants who now pay $99/year for the ability to be in your points program. Plus, you have your own version of Flexchange so instead of depositing your excess units into II and getting whatever is your portion of the exchange fee, you now get the rental fee from people who will pay $80/night for that otherwise empty unit.

And you are not dependent on timeshare sales to support your revenue -- you have a stable, recurring revenue stream.

Seriously, it's a great idea (from their perspective). I don't expect them to be punitive about it and introduce a system that is detested, but I do expect them to maximize that opportunity for them. I personally think we will find ways to benefit from the system.

I do think it's going to make it much harder for you to maximize the trading ability of your Gold Summit Watch, because I think there will be fewer available units in II for you to get. But I'm confident you'll find the weaknesses and will exploit them (I'll bet you a blue studio that you've found a way to maximize the system before the year is out).

But, you have to admit, from Marriott's perspective, it makes sense, and they have the appearance of responding to the needs of their customers (we wish you had a points system).

We want our cake and eat it too -- we want the flexibility of points, and yet the ability to keep exploiting the loopholes that we've found to date, in perpetuity.

Blue studio, Perry??? :)
 

SueDonJ

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I don't know why the idea of newer, better resorts having more value in an exchange system is a novel idea to some. Isn't that how it works now in II? Isn't that why we're always seeing posts here from folks asking if their 1BR week at XYZ resort will be a strong enough trader to pull a 1BR (or even better, a2BR!) week at ABC resort?

II is using a system wherein resorts/units are comparatively rated superior or inferior to one another - we just don't know what that system is. And granted, II's system now allows for an inferior week to pull a superior one, if all the stars align and the superior week is not requested by someone who has deposited an equally-superior week, or if the superior week is only requested by one depositor. It's true - within a system where weeks at XYZ resort are assigned 1,000 points value and ABC resort are 1,200, then the exchange which might be possible in II will not be possible in Marriott's internal exchange system.

But doesn't that make Marriott's proposed system MORE equitable than II's system? Doesn't it better allow folks who own superior weeks to get similar value in exchange, whereas now in II they're mostly trading down?

And couldn't Marriott make allowances for the discrepancies by assigning points based on views as well as resort/#BR/season, which II doesn't do now, so that the total point values for all weeks would more closely match the actual value of what's owned? Wouldn't that mean that your inferior-resort/1BR/oceanfront week could still get you into that superior-resort/1BR/gardenview week, or that superior-resort/studio/oceanfront week? Couldn't such a system increase exchange options for all owners?

And finally, Marriott can and probably will include some sort of option similar to II's flexchange and Getaways, where requirements are relaxed and values are reduced for short-notice stays. That's where the inequitable deal-of-the-century exchanges/weeks will be found, not throughout the entire exchange period as currently happens in II.
 
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SueDonJ

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You are all saying that they will just "sell more points" and put up the amount of points to stay at a given location. They cannot sell more points than they actually have timeshares to accomodate (meaning points have to be balanced by available time)- i.e. they can't oversell any resort (sell more time than is actually available). This was why DVC had to be very careful when they redid their points- Florida law is especially strict about this. I think if this new system does come about the only people who will really need to worry are those who are in a resort that has sold very little so far (Lakeshore Reserve, the two other new Fla timeshares, and perhaps Las Vegas) and those who bought to trade. I think many people, whether they are Tuggers or not, will be reluctant to shell out more $$ for something that they already paid a lot of money for and that they already pay high MF's on. Personally I think this is all a storm in a teacup and won't really change anything very dramatically. Who knows what will come?

tlwmkw

tlw, I get what you're saying about Disney having to keep the total number of points at each resort the same as when it was developed, with each reallocation across the resort calendars. You're right, Marriott will have to determine total points for each of their resorts relative to intervals available, and then will not be able to increase that number.

However, I think what people are talking about here is Marriott determining different exchange values at each resort, similar to DVC increasing the point calendars as each of their newer resorts was rolled out. The concern is that at each new Marriott resort it will cost successively more points to exchange in. DVC does it, I fully expect Marriott will do it, too.
 

RandR

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I have a question. Since Marriott is not going to be building much in the near future due to the economy, they will only be selling units/points for existing properties where there is inventory. (Or if they pick some up with the current non-existent ROFR.) What percent of Marriott's total timeshares have already been sold? I ask this since it has been talked about how many if not most people don't efficiently use their timeshares. They may never trade or sometimes even use their units. These people are not likely to join a new program as they will not want to spend more money for something they are not using. Those who bought to just go to the resort/view they bought also won't join. My confusing point is, if most of the ts inventory has already been sold, it would seem that certainly in the next few years the new points system won't get too many takers. Certainly the completely sold out properties might not be well represented in the new system.
 

PerryM

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Knowing the unknown?

tlw, I get what you're saying about Disney having to keep the total number of points at each resort the same as when it was developed, with each reallocation across the resort calendars. You're right, Marriott will have to determine total points for each of their resorts relative to intervals available, and then will not be able to increase that number.

However, I think what people are talking about here is Marriott determining different exchange values at each resort, similar to DVC increasing the point calendars as each of their newer resorts was rolled out. The concern is that at each new Marriott resort it will cost successively more points to exchange in. DVC does it, I fully expect Marriott will do it, too.

I see it totally different.

Initially, Marriott will offer something that isn't as aggressive as it will morph into years from now. So I fully expect a lot of season to season exchanges to make sense on day one.

However inter season exchanges will be something totally different. E.g. At Summit Watch my Gold week might bring 5,000 Points and at other similar resorts a Gold week will be worth 5,000 Points too. However a Platinum week might be worth 15,000 Points and I'd need 3 Gold weeks to do it.

If banking an borrowing are allowed I could bank 5,000 Points towards next year, then next year get 5,000 more Points and borrow 5,000 Points from the following year, I have 15,000 Points.

But that means 3 Gold weeks are now available and 1 Platinum week is missing from Platinum owners usage. This is just the start. Those 3 Gold weeks - what happens if no one want's them 30 days before each of their check-in day? Does Marriott get to rent them out and keep the rental income?

This is why fuzzy math is going to be used in this exchange system - and since probably at least 10% weeks will go unused who can say what's really going on. I doubt an accounting firm will render an opinion on the stability of the exchange system.

A new Marriott resort is built - anyone want to bet that it won't be worth more Points per week? So misfits will be very common at some point and the only way around them will be with more and more Points required.

A Hurricane wipes out a Marriott resort - what happens to the Points the owner had in their account? What happens to the exchanges? What happens to the stability of the entire exchange system? This exchange system will be a separate legal entity that Marriott can just throw up its hands and say "Who me - don't look at me".

I could go on and on but the unknowns will remain unknown even as the new exchange system is known.
 

SueDonJ

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If it's set up anything like DVC, Perry, Marriott won't be able to change the total points allocated across a year for every interval available at each resort. That's different, though, from them reallocating a usage calendar to react to demand fluctuations of seasons and units. IOW, say a resort has 1,000,000 points total for purchase/exchange value. Marriott must not go over that 1M total when it sets the exchange usage calendar with varying point values for each week/unit. But, any reallocation of points can be made across that individual resort calendar in response to demand so long as that 1M is still met. For example, say one week in a 2BR holiday week costs 2,000 points and one week in a 1BR off-season week costs 1,000 points. Over time more folks try to exchange into that offseason week in an effort to conserve their points. Marriott can reallocate those two weeks so that the demand is mitigated, so long as the total does not exceed the original 3,000. The 2BR holiday could become 1,750 and the 1BR off-season could become 1,250. Or 1,500 each. Or any other combination that equals 3,000. That equation can be extrapolated to include every interval in a resort up to whatever the original total points across the resort were at rollout, as well it can be applied to every resort.

About those three Gold weeks that no one wants - yes, I imagine that Marriott will be able at some point to recover them for rentals. That's what happens now with inventory that's exchanged for MRP or not reserved within so many days of check-in (75 at SurfWatch, for example); why wouldn't Marriott write a similar provision into the exchange system's governing docs?
 

PerryM

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Sales tools are not 100% ethical...

If it's set up anything like DVC, Perry, Marriott won't be able to change the total points allocated across a year for every interval available at each resort. That's different, though, from them reallocating a usage calendar to react to demand fluctuations of seasons and units. IOW, say a resort has 1,000,000 points total for purchase/exchange value. Marriott must not go over that 1M total when it sets the exchange usage calendar with varying point values for each week/unit. But, any reallocation of points can be made across that individual resort calendar in response to demand so long as that 1M is still met. For example, say one week in a 2BR holiday week costs 2,000 points and one week in a 1BR off-season week costs 1,000 points. Over time more folks try to exchange into that offseason week in an effort to conserve their points. Marriott can reallocate those two weeks so that the demand is mitigated, so long as the total does not exceed the original 3,000. The 2BR holiday could become 1,750 and the 1BR off-season could become 1,250. Or 1,500 each. Or any other combination that equals 3,000. That equation can be extrapolated to include every interval in a resort up to whatever the original total points across the resort were at rollout, as well it can be applied to every resort.

About those three Gold weeks that no one wants - yes, I imagine that Marriott will be able at some point to recover them for rentals. That's what happens now with inventory that's exchanged for MRP or not reserved within so many days of check-in (75 at SurfWatch, for example); why wouldn't Marriott write a similar provision into the exchange system's governing docs?

Disney has total control over ALL the Points a condo generated - and probably some legal constraints too - Marriott does not. Just about every Marriott condo will be part II and part new exchange system.

On day 1 Marriott will look great and the owners will probably get all kinds of instant reviews from other owners - to convince other owners to convert.

Most Marriott owners will want to reserve holiday weeks - that's exactly why Marriott charges more for them. Many unhappy owners won't get to reserve their holiday weeks - they have the points but the holiday weeks went instantly.

Now for supply and demand. Disney probably can shift Points around from low demand weeks to high demand weeks - but the yearly calendar total of Points per condo must remain the same. Marriott doesn't have to do this - they can simply add Points to weeks and the total yearly usage goes up. Their argument will be that unused Points spoiled from last year and those Points were moved forward - well why not?

All the tricks, the false statements, and yes lies that occur in the sales gallery will find their way into the new sales tool. That's how sales tools work - they don't have to be 100% ethical - Marriott has proven that for 4+ years with the "Better not buy resale" threats from those same sales galleries.

I keep telling folks that this is first and foremost a sales tool and if the owners get something out of it that's OK too.

Can I be wrong? Sure.

P.S.

A Point is a Point - this is vastly different than 1 out of 52 weeks is exactly the same as one of the remaining 51 weeks. This is why Marriott salesreps will ONLY sell holiday weeks at all the resorts - no need to sell anything else.

Expect a lot of disappointed owners who will never be heard over the few that got their dream vacation.
 
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cruisin

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The bigger Marriott can make the internal exchange system, the easier it will be to build cheaper resorts and put high credit values on them, it will not happen overnight, but it will always be the easiest route for them to take.

They will probably start building in Branson again, I was worried about my Branson weeks, but now realize they can still build more there at a cheap cost. The point values at any place they want to build and sell in the future will probably be good, and I cant wait to see the new Hawaiian and carribean resorts built across the street from the beach, with just as high or higher point values as the resorts right on the beach, they will probably add an extra 10 square feet to the units, call them deluxe, and make them worth 20% more points :D
 
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Carlsbadguy

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I noticed this past Sunday Marriott had an ad in the SAn Diego Union Tribune for sales executives for Newport Coast to start soon, so they may be up to something as they had recently cut way back on sales and now seem to be reving up again.
 

SueDonJ

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... Marriott won't be able to change the total points allocated across a year for every interval available at each resort. ...

Disney has total control over ALL the Points a condo generated - and probably some legal constraints too - Marriott does not. Just about every Marriott condo will be part II and part new exchange system. ...

That's just not correct, Perry. Although DVC can control the total amount of points allocated to encompass every interval within a resort, that number is fixed at development/rollout and cannot be changed unilaterally by DVC. The same will be true for Marriott - why would you expect that Marriott will not have to suffer under the same legal constraints as any other timeshare points system?

As far as exchanges, DVC owners use RCI for external exchanges the same way that Marriott owners will still be able to use II. Neither will have complete control over the inventory deposited for exchanges.

(I hope Marriott's internal exchange system does work the same as DVC's, because with DVC a point is a point is a point and the only difference is a home resort advantage for booking at the 11-mo mark as opposed to the 7-mo mark. Owners purchase a chosen number of points for home resort and internal exchange use. All DVC resorts do not "cost" the same amount of points for all stays - the point calendars take into consideration seasonal demand, number of BR, views at certain resorts and the age/amenities/overall size of each resort.)
 

barndweller

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The speculating about Marriott's hints of a new points system sure sounds a lot like Diamond Resorts system. The resorts are varied in quality just like Marriott. They are varied in demand just like Marriott. Some are seasonal some not so much. Not all units are in the points system since some owners choose not to join the "club."

DRI members have a corporate account using points to exchange at II. Trading is available at Diamond member resorts as well as other II participating resorts, often at less points than within the internal Diamond system. The only catch is the II exchange fee. The points required are discounted within 59 days in II and often in the internal Diamond system, too.

The number of points needed for booking vary according to demand and have changed over time. New resorts always require more points than older resorts. Holidays and weekends require a lot more points.

The point value an owner gets when joining the system remains the same forever, however, so over time the value of the underlying week slowly declines. The system works great if you can travel last minute or off season. I like the system DRI has set up. If Marriott does something similar, most owners would probably opt into it. They would be stupid to exclude non-developer buyers, at least in the beginning.
 

PerryM

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All the gore...

That's just not correct, Perry. Although DVC can control the total amount of points allocated to encompass every interval within a resort, that number is fixed at development/rollout and cannot be changed unilaterally by DVC. The same will be true for Marriott - why would you expect that Marriott will not have to suffer under the same legal constraints as any other timeshare points system?

As far as exchanges, DVC owners use RCI for external exchanges the same way that Marriott owners will still be able to use II. Neither will have complete control over the inventory deposited for exchanges.

(I hope Marriott's internal exchange system does work the same as DVC's, because with DVC a point is a point is a point and the only difference is a home resort advantage for booking at the 11-mo mark as opposed to the 7-mo mark. Owners purchase a chosen number of points for home resort and internal exchange use. All DVC resorts do not "cost" the same amount of points for all stays - the point calendars take into consideration seasonal demand, number of BR, views at certain resorts and the age/amenities/overall size of each resort.)

How many Points Marriott generates varies by the second - folks will join and leave all the time. Marriott has no obligation to publish those stats and won't. Additionally the Points generated per similar unit will vary over time. Just because a Platinum week at Summit Watch brings in 45,000 Points today doesn't mean it will for the next unit deposited - it could be more or less.

Inflation is a HUGE problem in a Point system - just how do they handle inflation/deflation of Points? Who knows right now.

So no, I don't see where Marriott is going to be held liable for the number of Points in their system nor how they change it at their will.

We are going to have to wait for all the gory details but they won't tell us that much. This is going to be a proprietary sales tool under their control and if anyone wants to read anything else into that well their imagination is their guide.

Home resort advantage - I see lots and lots of problems with this. Say I have 50,000 points in my account and 10,000 came from my Gold week at Summit Watch and 40,000 came from Branson. I want to reserve New Year's week at Summit Watch which costs 50,000 Points - do I get home resort advantage?

So my guess is that there is no home advantage - too many thorny problems.
 

m61376

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How many Points Marriott generates varies by the second - folks will join and leave all the time. Marriott has no obligation to publish those stats and won't. Additionally the Points generated per similar unit will vary over time. Just because a Platinum week at Summit Watch brings in 45,000 Points today doesn't mean it will for the next unit deposited - it could be more or less.

Inflation is a HUGE problem in a Point system - just how do they handle inflation/deflation of Points? Who knows right now.

So no, I don't see where Marriott is going to be held liable for the number of Points in their system nor how they change it at their will.

We are going to have to wait for all the gory details but they won't tell us that much. This is going to be a proprietary sales tool under their control and if anyone wants to read anything else into that well their imagination is their guide.

Home resort advantage - I see lots and lots of problems with this. Say I have 50,000 points in my account and 10,000 came from my Gold week at Summit Watch and 40,000 came from Branson. I want to reserve New Year's week at Summit Watch which costs 50,000 Points - do I get home resort advantage?

So my guess is that there is no home advantage - too many thorny problems.
The likely reality of point devaluation over time is troublesome; it will depend on how aggressive Marriott decides to be. DVC has done it and consumers are ok with it, while in Starwood's case it has caused dismay. I think it depends on whether or not the point differential reflects value (if a resort is truly more upscale or in a more desirable location) or whether it is a sales tool and the valuation is artificially enhanced.

That's why I think the way Marriott rolls out their system (IF they do, in fact, roll out a system), particularly the way they assign valuations, is going to be something that warrants careful assessment. IF the valuations appear to be grounded in something other than a sales wish list, so to speak, and reflects real market demand (akin to the way that any other pricing is set; Marriott already does this by setting rental rates at its various properties, so there is no need to reinvent the wheel), then the system could be a winner. If, on the other hand, they release a point valuation where even a good Platinum week won't be able to trade for half of the Plat. weeks in the system in a like for like fashion (size/length of stay), as seen in the Asia Pacific program (although admittedly that was just a small sampling of properties) then I think the appeal will be limited for the more educated owners.

However, I think that's going to be a rub- how informed is the average owner? Marriott will hype this as the next best thing since sliced bread- the answer to all their owners' complaints. Will people simply believe what they hear, or research it?

For me, home resort priority would be a must. You can get around your issue with it by limiting it to reserving not just in the property you bought but reserving the season and category you originally purchased for home resort priority.

That would also infer that they would still be selling individual properties, and not just points. Thus, MF's would be tied to the property purchased and not simply a trust type of ownership. Many others have done that successfully and, unlike their Asia Pacific program, I think that would be much more user friendly and would be attractive to owners who bought where they like to go, but also would like to be able to trade.

I think it will be easy to see from the outset how they are figuring points, although, as you point out, there is the risk of finagling over time. Will there be small disparities between newer resorts still in active sales, but in the same general location, as older properties, or will there be significant differences? I think that will at least be an indication of what trend they, at least initially, contemplate, and is something that I think will warrant careful scrutiny. I know some others disagree, but I still feel that properties that rent for similar rates should be assigned similar point values, because the rental rates reflect the "value;" "value" is really a combination of supply and demand (and location and construction/amenities influence demand), and the marketplace - as reflected in what people are willing to pay for something- determines value.

One issue that we probably won't see addressed and can only hope Marriott deals with fairly (but given history I have my qualms here) is the extent of devaluation over time. For argument's sake, let's say Marriott ties its current valuation to what they are renting units for. So, if Marriott is charging $400 per night for timeshare A, the unit would be worth 2800 points. Fast forward five years; the rental rate is $500 per night. The unit is still worth 2800 points, which was its assigned value in 2010. That's ok if subsequent point valuations are based on 2010 dollars. For example, if Marriott's next resort, timeshare B, in 2015 rents for $500 a night, will that unit be assigned 2800 points or 3500 points? The market value of the newer unit is the same as the older unit, but will the point value be inflated? If so, that would mean that the original owner of timeshare A would have to either accept a smaller unit or fewer days at timeshare B, even though the market considers them equivalent properties. Similarly, in 2015, if timeshare C was introduced, and its location and/or amenities dictated that it was more valuable, how would its points value be assigned? Would they be relative to the original scale or a newly inflated scale? If timeshare C rents for $600 a night at the same time that timeshare A was renting for $500 a night, would timeshare be valued at 20% more (which would reflect the relative difference in market pricing adjusted for time and inflation) or would it be assigned a 50% higher valuation (since its current value is 50% higher than timeshare A was at the time that points were assigned to timeshare A).

My point is that prices increase over time, but so does the value of older resorts. In the rewards point program, the issue wasn't the increase in the number of points required for exchange (which I think most people understood was a natural consequence of the timeshare exchange for points system being part of a larger points program which is impacted by inflation), but the fact that the number of points for redemption reflected inflationary factors, but the point value assigned remained stagnant, fixed at the time of purchase. For any new system to be equitable, either all point assignments, both now and in the future, have to be adjusted to reflect 2010 values, or all valuations have to be periodically readjusted to reflect current rates. Otherwise, in 5-10 years down the road even that premium Hawaii, Caribbean or skiing New Year's week might not have enough points to reserve a week in a 2BR during Plat. season at whatever the newest resort is.
 

PerryM

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The Disadvantage of Home Resort Advantage

Marriott is probably not going to have a home resort advantage in their new sales scheme aka Internal Exchange System.

Marriott is going to fundamentally alter the way they sell timeshares - they won't be selling timeshares. They will be selling Points in an exchange club.

When you hawk Point packages made up of ANY unit from ANY Marriott the actual unit makes no difference to that scheme. If I buy a 40,000 Point package that will get me 1 RED season vacation and 1 WHITE season vacation in the Marriott system the deeded weeks that generate those 40,000 Points is meaningless.

So the unit you turn over to the new sales scheme looses all identity once you get Points - a Point is a Point.

Marriott knows this and is going to be NOT selling individual weeks anymore they will be selling Point Packages:

  • Platinum 50,000 Points
  • Gold 40,000 Points
  • Silver 30,000 Points
  • Bronze 20,000 Points

Now there is nothing to stop Marriott from adding all kinds of benefits to the levels:

  • Platinum - VIP status, special check-in lanes at resorts and 12 month reservations, late check-out, early check-in with text message sent when ready, daily tidy-service, Platinum Members parking slots
  • Gold - 11 month reservations and late check-out, early check-in with text message sent when ready, daily tidy-service
  • Silver - maid service and 10 month reservations
  • Bronze - pond scum with 9 month reservations, clean your own room when you check-in

This is where all the benefits will be placed - at the various levels. This is where all the pressure will be placed - to move higher in the levels.

All this versus II where everyone is treated by the week they bring to be deposited.

P.S.
When you actually buy Points at the sales gallery you won't know which weeks you are being deeded to until the final end.

Just like right now when you buy a Platinum Week it is actually deeded to a specific condo at a specific week - it says so on the deed. I don't think the week of usage on the deed has to align with a season since Marriott can redefine seasons if it wants. So the physical deed is totally meaningless to you since you only care about the season description you are getting. I'm not sure even views can be related to the actual deed - just a description within the season.

P.P.S.
The initial kick-off should have higher level benefits thrown in for the 1st year. E.g. I buy a Silver Point Package and get Platinum benefits for the 1st year and can then upgrade by buying the Point difference then for the Platinum price today.

This is why Marriott will need 2 weeks to retrain the salesreps - a totally different way of selling and selling a totally different thing - Points in our exchange club.
 
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tlwmkw

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Perry,

The deed has the week and season listed on it. This is not something that Marriott, or any other TS organization, can randomly change. At Surfwatch the deed also has the actual view category on it- again you can't just change this. The survey that MVCI sent out said that you would not be giving up your deed but that you would join the points system for a given amount of time (they used the example of 3 years) and after that time you could either re-up or stick with the week that you own. They cannot just cancel hundreds of deeds and turn them into points- not only would that be way too expensive it would be illegal. Now the question really is how will new buyers be treated who do not have an actual deed? With DVC there is an underlying timeshare (they call it home resort) that you have the RTU for and I presume MVCI will have to do the same- Florida has many laws governing this and I don't think MVCI will have the latitude to do much of what you are speculating about.

To anyone who stumbles on this thread please be aware that this is all speculation- no one knows what is going to happen with MVCI. Much of what is being written is phrased in a way that makes it sound like it's a done deal- that is just not so and we all need to be careful about this.

tlwmkw
 

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Everyone will have skin in this game...

Perry,

The deed has the week and season listed on it. This is not something that Marriott, or any other TS organization, can randomly change. At Surfwatch the deed also has the actual view category on it- again you can't just change this. The survey that MVCI sent out said that you would not be giving up your deed but that you would join the points system for a given amount of time (they used the example of 3 years) and after that time you could either re-up or stick with the week that you own. They cannot just cancel hundreds of deeds and turn them into points- not only would that be way too expensive it would be illegal. Now the question really is how will new buyers be treated who do not have an actual deed? With DVC there is an underlying timeshare (they call it home resort) that you have the RTU for and I presume MVCI will have to do the same- Florida has many laws governing this and I don't think MVCI will have the latitude to do much of what you are speculating about.

To anyone who stumbles on this thread please be aware that this is all speculation- no one knows what is going to happen with MVCI. Much of what is being written is phrased in a way that makes it sound like it's a done deal- that is just not so and we all need to be careful about this.

tlwmkw

There is NO way to continue views into a Point system - no way that I can think of.

The way to handle views, like ocean front, would be by making the deed worth more Points. Say a MOC 2-bedroom garden view is 40,000 Points then a ocean view is 50,000 Points and a ocean front is then 60,000 Points. Beyond that I just don't see an easy, simple way to give preference to the actual owner.

Maybe there is a way but one just doesn't jump to mind right now. Points is the currency of operation in the new sales scheme - Points determine everything.

Folks, this is NOT and exchange system - it is a Points driven sales tool for Marriott salesreps. If you should happen to get any benefit out of it why that's just icing on the cake.

Think of it this way - the engine to this new scheme is a Sales Point System and it can have skins put on it just like this chat room can have dozens/hundreds of skins put on it. Underneath it still is a chat room.

Marriott is going to release a Sales Point System with an Internal Exchange System skin.

P.S.
Introducing views will be radically different than how II handles exchanges - you exchange into a unit size and week only. Marriott will add views which will cost more Points - just like their hotels have views and cost more money for better views.

P.P.S.
At MountainSide there are 3 views which Marriott rotates owners through (Exchangers and renters somehow get a view) 1) PayDay, 2) Back of a hill, 3) Parking lot. It's going to be fun to see if Marriott continues this or now offers PayDay view at a premium point price - that's my guess; but not to start with - 1 year later when "Supply and Demand" cause all kinds of readjustments.

Folks this is just like MRPs - there are going to be unless adjustments but the net result will always be the same "Buy more Points" is the correct solution to anything in this new scheme. And you guys thought this was all about one owner exchanging their reservation with another owner....
 
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SueDonJ

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... Folks, this is NOT and exchange system - it is a Points driven sales tool for Marriott salesreps. If you should happen to get any benefit out of it why that's just icing on the cake. ...

Marriott is going to release a Sales Point System with an Internal Exchange System skin. ...

P.S.
Introducing views will be radically different than how II handles exchanges - you exchange into a unit size and week only. Marriott will add views which will cost more Points - just like their hotels have views and cost more money for better views. ...

Folks this is just like MRPs - there are going to be unless adjustments but the net result will always be the same "Buy more Points" is the correct solution to anything in this new scheme. And you guys thought this was all about one owner exchanging their reservation with another owner....

I'm not sure but I get the idea that you think this line of thinking is all new, that you're coming up with ideas that none of us have thought of. I don't know why you'd think that way, though - I don't think a one-for-one reservation exchange is the goal here at all. The goal IS to generate revenue, and one way to entice owners is with a more equitable exchange system.

You mention how the hotels have a pricing structure that takes views into consideration. Well, so do the timeshares! An oceanfront unit in one resort costs more than a same-size oceanside unit which costs more than a same-size gardenview unit in that same resort. I expect that any new exchange system will include a similar view differential, both in how many points an owner is allotted for his/her owned units as well as how many points it will cost to exchange in to the different views. IMO, like Martha says, that's a GOOD thing.
 

SueDonJ

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... Home resort advantage - I see lots and lots of problems with this. Say I have 50,000 points in my account and 10,000 came from my Gold week at Summit Watch and 40,000 came from Branson. I want to reserve New Year's week at Summit Watch which costs 50,000 Points - do I get home resort advantage?

So my guess is that there is no home advantage - too many thorny problems.

You're making all of this way too complicated. It's handled simply at DVC; there's no reason it can't be handled simply at Marriott, too. This is DVC's solution to your example:

Your 10K Gold Summit Watch points can be used 11 months in advance of the check-in day to book at Summit Watch, subject to availability. Your 40K Branson points can be used the same way to book at Branson. At 7 months prior to the desired check-in day you can combine whatever points you have not booked at your home resorts to book whatever is available at any resort. There, a home resort advantage that's not difficult at all. It's short-sighted to think that Marriott won't be able to figure out a home resort advantage whether it's similar to DVC's or not. That's not to say they will, only that they can.
 

PerryM

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Guessing is so fun to do...

You're making all of this way too complicated. It's handled simply at DVC; there's no reason it can't be handled simply at Marriott, too. This is DVC's solution to your example:

Your 10K Gold Summit Watch points can be used 11 months in advance of the check-in day to book at Summit Watch, subject to availability. Your 40K Branson points can be used the same way to book at Branson. At 7 months prior to the desired check-in day you can combine whatever points you have not booked at your home resorts to book whatever is available at any resort. There, a home resort advantage that's not difficult at all. It's short-sighted to think that Marriott won't be able to figure out a home resort advantage whether it's similar to DVC's or not. That's not to say they will, only that they can.

There are dozens of ways all of this can be handled - I'm taking a stab at what I think Marriott might do. I'm just one voice, just taking what other rumors have said "No home advantage".

But this is an exchange club - if you want to stay at your home resort just make a reservation with Marriott direct, you don't need to join the club. I think that would be Marriott's answer. However, if you want to bla bla bla ... that's what will follow in the next sentence to sell Points.

I'm not sure Marriott will sell individual weeks anymore - my guess is not. They want to promote and sell doggy inventory and to be able to buy, from the resale market, the best bang for the buck.

The problem with silver and bronze weeks is that no one really want's them, with the new sales scheme they will be sold as easy as Platinum Plus Holiday weeks - Marriott will simply lump them into a Point package.

If you no longer sell timeshare weeks but Points to their entire system there is no home advantage to worry about.

P.S.
If this is the case, Marriott no longer sells individual weeks, then Platinum Plus weeks might actually explode on the resale market. Resales will still be week based - Points can't be resold anywhere.
 
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SueDonJ

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There are dozens of ways all of this can be handled - I'm taking a stab at what I think Marriott might do. I'm just one voice, just taking what other rumors have said "No home advantage".

But this is an exchange club - if you want to stay at your home resort just make a reservation with Marriott direct, you don't need to join the club. I think that would be Marriott's answer. However, if you want to bla bla bla ... that's what will follow in the next sentence to sell Points.

I'm not sure Marriott will sell individual weeks anymore - my guess is not. They want to promote and sell doggy inventory and to be able to buy, from the resale market, the best bang for the buck.

The problem with silver and bronze weeks is that no one really want's them, with the new sales scheme they will be sold as easy as Platinum Plus Holiday weeks - Marriott will simply lump them into a Point package.

If you no longer sell timeshare weeks but Points to their entire system there is no home advantage to worry about.

P.S.
If this is the case, Marriott no longer sells individual weeks, then Platinum Plus weeks might actually explode on the resale market. Resales will still be week based - Points can't be resold anywhere.

But even if they don't sell weeks anymore, only points, the point totals that they have to work with must be supported by the inventory at the resorts. They will still have to file the proper Timeshare Plan and Declaration legal paperwork in the development process. They will not be able to pull points out of thin air and sell one particular interval as "bait" forever. Take a Platinum Oceanfront 2BR Penthouse in Maui's new tower (have no idea if this even exists, it's an example) - they can sell potential owners on the idea of staying in such a unit if they buy enough points to book it with a home resort advantage. But the total points allotted to the resort will be finite, stipulated in the governing docs, and they'll no longer be able to sell at that resort when the allotted points have all been sold. The owners, of course, will face the same limited availability issues that owners of floating weeks face now, meaning the purchase of enough points for that "bait" won't guarantee a particular reservation, but that limitation can be stipulated in the governing docs for a point system exactly the same way as it's spelled out now in the weeks system.

The same "bait" can be used to play up an exchange system based on points instead of weeks. So what? How is that any different from what a sales rep tells you now, that a 3BR unit in a resort has more trade power than a 2BR at the same resort, or that a resort in an island location has more trade power than an inland resort, etc?
 

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But even if they don't sell weeks anymore, only points, the point totals that they have to work with must be supported by the inventory at the resorts. They will still have to file the proper Timeshare Plan and Declaration legal paperwork in the development process. They will not be able to pull points out of thin air and sell one particular interval as "bait" forever. Take a Platinum Oceanfront 2BR Penthouse in Maui's new tower (have no idea if this even exists, it's an example) - they can sell potential owners on the idea of staying in such a unit if they buy enough points to book it with a home resort advantage. But the total points allotted to the resort will be finite, stipulated in the governing docs, and they'll no longer be able to sell at that resort when the allotted points have all been sold. The owners, of course, will face the same limited availability issues that owners of floating weeks sell now, meaning the purchase of enough points for that "bait" won't guarantee a particular reservation, but that limitation can be stipulated in the governing docs for a point system exactly the same way as it's spelled out now in the weeks system.

The same "bait" can be used to play up an exchange system based on points instead of weeks. So what? How is that any different from what a sales rep tells you now, that a 3BR unit in a resort has more trade power than a 2BR at the same resort, or that a resort in an island location has more trade power than an inland resort, etc?

I should imagine that on day 1 Marriott will offer the following:

1,000 Platinum Packages (50,000 Points each) which cost $150,000 and MFs ranging from $4,000 to $5,000 per year.

The faster you buy the lower the MF payment. Each Package is made up of 3 to 5 weeks which we pay all closing costs and you simply sign 3 - 5 deeds that are then turned into our exchange club for 5 years at a minimum. Financing can be arranged on any or all of the weeks.

2,000 Gold Packages (40,000 points each) will each cost $100,000 and MF's ranging from $4,500 to $5,500 per year.

5,000 10,000 Point Packages are available which cost $50,000 and the MF is $1,000 per year - this can ONLY be used for upgrade purposes.

I'm just guessing here but the actual timeshare involved won't be know to the salesrep - just the purchase price and the MFs. When the sale is made individual deeds will be signed and a purchase price assigned for tax purposes and lien purposes.

I could easily be wrong - it could easily be something totally different.
 

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Hi...

If points are done properly, it could be great (today I have high positive vibes)

Points can really add some flexibility as it can provide shorter or longer stays than the standard 7 days. It can eliminate the need to "pick up" hotel nights before and after TS stays.

Perhaps it can permit wed-wed stays, thus helping to get better flights with fewer $$$ or FF miles.

Points can help the "plat" high $$$ owner, by eliminating "down trades". In the current week/week system a Presidents ski week owner can't really get equal value, thus will occupy or rent. In this system the plat owner might get 12 days (hypothetically) in Orlando based on point value. This in turn might INCREASE availability of these plat weeks to lesser week owners that want to bank, borrow or combine points...

Perhaps MVCI wants to increase sales by becoming the "best and brightest" in the industry wit h the "best" product (Perry stop laughing)

This is today's dream....
 
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