Speculation About Marriott's New Timeshare Structure [merged]

[suenmike32]

Hmmmm...
I'm following along as best I can
The $1499.00 (if this is an accurate figure) is not too too bad..
but I'm wondering if that is a number to convert all my units to the new point system?
I have 3 platinum in Florida and 1 gold in S.C.
6K (for all four) would not be a good thing (at least for me)
Needless to say, they are all resales. Reason being...we never cared about the points. We use our units every year.
Any comments?

 

[dougp26364]

We'll be at a Marriott next week but, I'm not inclined to blow half a day listening to a pitch to convert and buy more points. Maybe if I explain I don't want to waste a salesmans time but would like the information, in writing, on the new system, I can get them to give it to me. Or perhaps I can sign up for a sales tour, tell them to keep any incentives and just give me the conversion info to save a salesmans time.

I know it's a numbers game. I know the salemanager is going to want a salesman to take their best shot but, I also know that I currently own 1 or 2 more timeshares than I can effeciently use right now and I'm not interested in adding on to the MF's I'm already paying each year.

I'll ask for the written info but, I suspect they won't want to give it to me without the presentation. With this being a short trip for us (we're only staying 4 nights out of the full weeks), I'm not wanting to waste 1/2 a day listening to a pitch to buy additional points I can't use and don't want or need.

 

[dougp26364]

Hmmmm...
I'm following along as best I can
The $1499.00 (if this is an accurate figure) is not too too bad..
but I'm wondering if that is a number to convert all my units to the new point system?
I have 3 platinum in Florida and 1 gold in S.C.
6K (for all four) would not be a good thing (at least for me)
Needless to say, they are all resales. Reason being...we never cared about the points. We use our units every year.
Any comments?

Points systems are set up to improve the efficiency of exchanging. If you use your units rather than exchanging them, paying to convert to a points based system and then paying the management fee's that are bound to go along with said points based system is likely to be a waste of money.

We converted to DRI's points based system but, it only made sense for us because we were using those units 100% of the time for exchanging. The points based system gave us more options and, also saved us money over the long run. However, if all I was doing was booking back into our home resort, there would have been no savings and no advantage to joining.

With our Marriott ownership, I'm in a different position. We've are content to use our home resorts rather than exchange. But, we bought three bedroom units and have been exchanging the lock-off portions. We've also used request first exchanges to exchange out of one of our ownerships but, only if the exchange we wanted was available. Twice that exchange has been available. I think it's going to be a tougher decision for use with Marriott than it was with DRI.

At $1,449, I'll probably stick with what we have. If it's $699 as reported in the other thread (we bought direct) and, if the annual membership isn't to high and, if I can see value in combining the points left over if we only reserve the equivelent of the master suite's we use and, if I believe I can always get the unit/view I want then, maybe it will be worth converting. I'm not particularly optimistic that any new points based internal exchange sytem is going to be all that and a bag of chips for us based on how we anticipate using our ownership for the forseable future.

 

[Dean]

Bring your checkbook to the 'tour' and put it on the table when the sales rep introduces himself. Let him MAKE the sale, tell you ALL the juicy details. See how he reacts to an apparent easy, willing 'new customer'.

I don't work that way. I'll get all the info and read the fine print before making any true decision. If things work the way it's looking it will ultimately be an easy decision in my situation but I won't be signing up until I'm certain.

 

[suenmike32]

I wonder though...if there will be any "disadvantages", when it comes to booking our units (in the time frame that we want)?
We typically can use the 13 month rule and usually always get the times we like
(give or take a few days).
Mike

 

[m61376]

Or perhaps I can sign up for a sales tour, tell them to keep any incentives and just give me the conversion info to save a salesmans time.

I know I've signed up for a question and answer session basically in the past- refused the sales presentation, gave up the tour incentives, but was able to craft the session to my needs. Since I wasn't getting paid (or given any promos) to be their captive audience, the entire session centered around getting answers to my questions. I learned more in what stretched out to be a bit over an hour I guess than likely I would have at multiple sales tours. I did have to repeatedly remind the salesman that I wasn't interested in seeing their videos but just wanted answers. That, of course, was before I realized that Tuggers were an easier and better source.

I'm guessing, though, that over the next few weeks much of what we'll know will be gotten from either tours or infosessions like that. I suspect that what is in writing will leave many questions unanswered. It is the nuances and applications which will likely determine the real program benefits. Of course, what isn't literally in writing can change tomorrow.

 

[Dean]

Of course, what isn't literally in writing can change tomorrow.

Actually some of what is in writing can change that easily and quickly without recourse as well.

 

[m61376]

At $1,449, I'll probably stick with what we have. If it's $699 as reported in the other thread (we bought direct) and, if the annual membership isn't to high and, if I can see value in combining the points left over if we only reserve the equivelent of the master suite's we use and, if I believe I can always get the unit/view I want then, maybe it will be worth converting. I'm not particularly optimistic that any new points based internal exchange sytem is going to be all that and a bag of chips for us based on how we anticipate using our ownership for the forseable future.

I'm kinda in a similar position, basically using where we bought but would like the flexibility of exchanging with guaranteed views and booking rather than exchanging. I think for real flexibility I'd need to see the ability to book either part of whole with home resort advantage and the other half perhaps using points (to maximize the lock-off feature), with banking/borrowing and perhaps renting of points to fill a small deficit if need be.

The other issue will be cost of course. If the 599/699 figure is valid, then that's a great start. Is that for direct purchasers only? Fletch hinted at a 1499 figure- is that the $$'s we're looking at- and is it for one or all weeks? How will resales fare in the new system? So many questions.... Today will be a long day, and perhaps tomorrow equally as frustrating- family time and not computer time.

 

[dougp26364]

I'm kinda in a similar position, basically using where we bought but would like the flexibility of exchanging with guaranteed views and booking rather than exchanging. I think for real flexibility I'd need to see the ability to book either part of whole with home resort advantage and the other half perhaps using points (to maximize the lock-off feature), with banking/borrowing and perhaps renting of points to fill a small deficit if need be.

The other issue will be cost of course. If the 599/699 figure is valid, then that's a great start. Is that for direct purchasers only? Fletch hinted at a 1499 figure- is that the $$'s we're looking at- and is it for one or all weeks? How will resales fare in the new system? So many questions.... Today will be a long day, and perhaps tomorrow equally as frustrating- family time and not computer time.

A word of caution about renting. You need to read the rules of the program in detail. Some clubs prohibit the rental of points for profit. As I see it, this is basically their attempt to keep people from buying points cheap on the resale market, then opening up their own for profit vacation rental company.

I don't know that Marriott will attempt the same thing but, controlling inventory is a big advantage to the developer with points based systems. Setting up a system only to have it exploited by individuals damages the ability of owners wanting to use their points for vacation and sets up compition for the developer, who may be wanting to rent the units at the same resorts.

I would like to think that those who only rent a few points won't be viewed in a negative light. Only those that buy units/points resale in mass and who's only purpose is to rent for profit would be affected.

 

[dougp26364]

I wonder though...if there will be any "disadvantages", when it comes to booking our units (in the time frame that we want)?
We typically can use the 13 month rule and usually always get the times we like
(give or take a few days).
Mike

The disadvantage I see is that you're not guarenteed any particular unit style, location of view. All points owners will be competing with each other for the unit description that fits their needs. This is a two way street though as some owners want the most expsenvie units points wise while others want to conserve their points and take more vacations.

For instance, I own a 3 bedroom ocean front unit at Ocean Pointe. Let's say I bought this unit because of the size family we had at the time, not for the ocean front view. 3 bedroom units at Ocean Pointe are all ocean front views.

Now it's 10 years down the line, the kids are grown and we don't need the three bedroom unit and ocean front view was never important to us in the first place. With points, we can reserve a 1 or 2 bedroom ocean side which now fits our needs better and have left over points to take another vacation, extend our stay at Ocean Pointe or maybe even convert the left over points to lower the MF's, pay for the rental car or buy FF miles to get us to our vacation.

Or maybe there was a young couple who bought before they had children but now find themselves needing the extra room of a 3 bedroom unit. Ocean Pointe is sold out of three bedroom units but, they can buy enough points to be able to reserve the 3 bedroom unit they want/need without having to buy another complete week somewhere and hope to exchange in. Or they could just save/borrow points to get the larger unit and vacation EOY rather than EY.

So in some way going points will affect your ability to get the exact unit style/location you originally purchased. This is why some of us are a little skeptical unless there is some sort of home resort booking advantage. This idea of a legacy program whereby deeded weeks owners can remain as they are when they want to use what they purchased or, switch to points when they want to exchange is interesting to me. Of course, we have no idea if that's just rumor or fact at this point. Being able to switch hit between systems might give deeded weeks owners the best of both worlds.

In the end, points are all about increasing the number of options and flexability owners have. They are not about guarenteing particluar units, resorts or views in many cases. How you typically use your ownership will determine how much value you can squeeze out of a points based system.

 

[m61376]

I would like to think that those who only rent a few points won't be viewed in a negative light. Only those that buy units/points resale in mass and who's only purpose is to rent for profit would be affected.

I actually meant the ability to either rent points from another owner or perhaps from Marriott directly to supplement what you have if you need to top off to book perhaps a bigger unit or something a little more costly in points than you have available- similar to what Redweek offers.

 

[pacheco18]

Do we have any FACTS yet or is everything still speculation?

 

[dougp26364]

Actually some of what is in writing can change that easily and quickly without recourse as well.

This can be true especially with trust based ownerships if it's written into the contract that the trust manager has lattitude to change the rules as they see fit. Remember, the trust manager votes for the trust. Individual owners don't vote.

 

[pacheco18]

Here is what I have learned from these 2000+ posts.

Buy where you want to go (a lesson I learned from TUG) and it won't make a difference what the new program is.

We either go to Ko'Olina or Shadow Ridge and we have the option of trading our two developer units for points if we choose not to go. Works for me. I don't think the new program will interfere with this strategy.

 

[Dean]

This can be true especially with trust based ownerships if it's written into the contract that the trust manager has lattitude to change the rules as they see fit. Remember, the trust manager votes for the trust. Individual owners don't vote.

This is true now with the current system for reservations and a few other issues, it will likely be more true with any trust system. One big question is whether the points can be change (reallocated).

 

[dougp26364]

Here is what I have learned from these 2000+ posts.

Buy where you want to go (a lesson I learned from TUG) and it won't make a difference what the new program is.

We either go to Ko'Olina or Shadow Ridge and we have the option of trading our two developer units for points if we choose not to go. Works for me. I don't think the new program will interfere with this strategy.

I doubt you even notice the change.

 

[dougp26364]

This is true now with the current system for reservations and a few other issues, it will likely be more true with any trust system. One big question is whether the points can be change (reallocated).

It depends on how the rules are written. If they put in there that the points will never change and can't be re-allocated, it will be tough for them to change that rule without severe backlash from the owners. If it's like DVC they apparently can change the number of points required for certain days of the week, unit types, views et.... so long as the total number of points never changes. When one goes up, another must come down.

 

[dougp26364]

Do we have any FACTS yet or is everything still speculation?

Speculation until either Sunday or Monday. I've read both days as the release date for the new program.

 

[Dean]

It depends on how the rules are written. If they put in there that the points will never change and can't be re-allocated, it will be tough for them to change that rule without severe backlash from the owners. If it's like DVC they apparently can change the number of points required for certain days of the week, unit types, views et.... so long as the total number of points never changes. When one goes up, another must come down.

Exactly, that's one of the issues I want to know the answer to. It's unlikely that any appropriate method (fixed, possible to reallocate) will change my decision but it's important to the overall planning I will undertake.

 

[Beverley]

Okay, I'll help with the 1000 posts .... 1499 ??:rofl: :hysterical: :rofl: :hysterical:

If that was some kind of hint ... way too much Marriott..... If it was just a play amount to see where it would go ... very good

Beverley

 

[dioxide45]

So up until Thursday the deeded weeks system was the best thing ever and everyone should have been buying to get the best of both worlds. Tomorrow or Monday the old weeks system will be the worst thing ever with every sales guy touting how the points system is best. You can always toss the resale option out there and hear the spew about how that is bad, then throw back at them that just last week you were selling those weeks as the best thing ever and the best of both worlds. They will probably retort with some lie about resales being excluded or something.

 

[Beverley]

Fletch,

I hope you will post as soon as the announcement is out with your spiel on it and advice .....

Beverley

 

[NJDave]

done and done

We know that it wouldn't be appropriate to post the details here prior to the official release.

However, with what you know today, do you think that Tuggers are going to like the new program?

 

[dioxide45]

I have bits and pieces but thats it.

People, by his own admission Fletch doesn't know much. He is in the same boat as the rest of us though he doesn't even own a Marriott. Though he knows slightly more based on information he obtained from others he used to work with.

 

[dioxide45]

Remember, the trust manager votes for the trust. Individual owners don't vote.

But it can be written in to the documents that the trust manager must vote based on proxies voted by the owners in that trust. Not sure how that would work with a trust owning many different resorts.

My thought is that the trust will have a board of trustees and owners in the trust will vote for people on that board. The board will then vote on who they want to be on the individual resort boards. This can turn out to be very bad for deeded owners as once the trust gets enough control, they could vote in people to the individual boards who then put up a vote to dissolve the resorts or deeded ownerships. That vote is then put to the owners, and now that the trust has majority ownership, out go the deeded owners and the developer has strong armed their way back in.