Speculation About Marriott's New Timeshare Structure [merged]

[dioxide45]

Just hold on one minute lets not all fall into a false sense of enlightenment. We have no idea how these so called points will convert? Has anyone seen a point conversion table and how that equates into a nights stay at a resort or hotel

Perry's worst fears could still come true.

If this thing even happens...

 

[Dean]

This is exactly my question too! Since every points owner will be able to request a "prime time week" if there is not a differentiation in the booking window, I'm afraid deeded week owners are going to get screwed when trying to book their weeks!

I hope I'm wrong!

The inventory for each portion (points/weeks) must be handled separately. Thus you're ONLY competing with others in YOUR group on a percentage basis for a given season/week. Assuming some of the later info is true, for weeks owner that will be other owners in the same season who have not converted. For points owners that are legacy (assuming the priorities remain) who decide to take their deeded week that will be essentially only other points members who have converted and also take their own week. It's possible these two inventories (non converted that season, converted not taking points) could be combined and they could all compete together. For points owners using points, they will be competing with every other points owner for the remaining weeks (minus weeks not converted and converted weeks that don't take points) unless a VIP program is forthcoming.

In some places, a batting average of 0.350 makes you an All Star...

South of the Mendoza line.

 

[PerryM]

See, it doesn't look nearly as bad as what you originally predicted now does it. As it gets closer, it looks like those that said Marriott wasn't going to screw it's owners over were closer to the truth than those who believed this would be a nightmare for Marriott owners and would be the downfall of Marriott itself.

The problem was, there was nothing in front of you at all. You were jumping at shadows and making stuff up off the top of your head. Even when one looked at other points based systems, you original guesswork had little basis in reality. There are NO programs out there as bad as your original projections.

Let's not forget that Marriott is a timeshare organization and as happy as I am to see no huge screw job coming at us other developers have done exactly that to their owners - screwed them.

We'll see next week and hopefully I won't have to put on my sad face and report that Marriott hosed us.

 

[PerryM]

I've read Perry's posts for years. To date, I think his batting average is pretty low when a reality check is done.

Static or dynamic - some folks think static and some dynamic.

Look how far we've come from the initial rumor "Better not buy resale or the new exchange system will screw you" to the latest rumors which paint a very different outcome.

Those 4 years of "Better not buy resale" may turn out to be bogus and that you can buy resale, even next week, and use those weeks in the new system and play Marriott's game that way.

A final tuning next week will have many of us maximizing our Marriott usage under a completely different set of rules to exploit.

Until Marriott changes the rules again...

 

[m61376]

The inventory for each portion (points/weeks) must be handled separately. Thus you're ONLY competing with others in YOUR group on a percentage basis for a given season/week. Assuming some of the later info is true, for weeks owner that will be other owners in the same season who have not converted. For points owners that are legacy (assuming the priorities remain) who decide to take their deeded week that will be essentially only other points members who have converted and also take their own week. It's possible these two inventories (non converted that season, converted not taking points) could be combined and they could all compete together. For points owners using points, they will be competing with every other points owner for the remaining weeks (minus weeks not converted and converted weeks that don't take points) unless a VIP program is forthcoming.

My head is spinning again . I understand the concept of keeping inventories separate (or at least I think I do) with a non-converted weeks or converted weeks/points program. But if new program converters are able to convert at will on an annual basis, wouldn't everyone booking at their home resort just be competing against each other, presumably from the same inventory? I think the issue will be whether those who convert to points and purely points owners can reserve at the same time, in which case the inventory would have to be separate and I would think home resort advantage would be impinged. Where would members of the program using their owned week fall- with the point allocation or with the week allocation?

IF week owners and new program converters booking at their home resort get to reserve before point owners, then I would think the system would be more simplistic. I can also understand that, for legacy owners, having to wait a month or more to book at their non-owned resort would make intrinsic sense, preserving the home resort priority that many of the other systems do.

However, where I think the waters will muddy is where do new point owners fall in? They have no home resort priority (unless they sell points tied to a specific resort, but from what has been posted it appears that points will just be generic points. IF that's the case, where will their reservation opportunities lie? Will there be set aside a portion of ownership at each resort for their reservations, or will all points get to reserve just a little later than anyone booking with a home resort advantage? Will legacy owners all get first crack at their home resort? After all, aren't the points of legacy owners converting equivalent to the points of new point purchasers?

I know I am missing something here....

 

[PerryM]

The inventory for each portion (points/weeks) must be handled separately. Thus you're ONLY competing with others in YOUR group on a percentage basis for a given season/week. Assuming some of the later info is true, for weeks owner that will be other owners in the same season who have not converted. For points owners that are legacy (assuming the priorities remain) who decide to take their deeded week that will be essentially only other points members who have converted and also take their own week. It's possible these two inventories (non converted that season, converted not taking points) could be combined and they could all compete together. For points owners using points, they will be competing with every other points owner for the remaining weeks (minus weeks not converted and converted weeks that don't take points) unless a VIP program is forthcoming.

South of the Mendoza line.

I don't see any reason why Marriott needs more than 1 inventory to handle Legacy, Legacy Points, and Points. I don't see any deed or CCR violation at all from 1 inventory.

 

[m61376]

I don't see any reason why Marriott needs more than 1 inventory to handle Legacy, Legacy Points, and Points. I don't see any deed or CCR violation at all from 1 inventory.

I think the problem arises IF Marriott allows point owners or legacy points to reserve weeks on day 1 (at 9AM at the 12 month mark). Week owners don't want to be competing with point owners or legacy points converted from other properties for those reservations. That would leave everyone competing for those prime weeks, much like your worst case scenarios.

 

[Dean]

My head is spinning again . I understand the concept of keeping inventories separate (or at least I think I do) with a non-converted weeks or converted weeks/points program. But if new program converters are able to convert at will on an annual basis, wouldn't everyone booking at their home resort just be competing against each other, presumably from the same inventory? I think the issue will be whether those who convert to points and purely points owners can reserve at the same time, in which case the inventory would have to be separate and I would think home resort advantage would be impinged. Where would members of the program using their owned week fall- with the point allocation or with the week allocation?

IF week owners and new program converters booking at their home resort get to reserve before point owners, then I would think the system would be more simplistic. I can also understand that, for legacy owners, having to wait a month or more to book at their non-owned resort would make intrinsic sense, preserving the home resort priority that many of the other systems do.

However, where I think the waters will muddy is where do new point owners fall in? They have no home resort priority (unless they sell points tied to a specific resort, but from what has been posted it appears that points will just be generic points. IF that's the case, where will their reservation opportunities lie? Will there be set aside a portion of ownership at each resort for their reservations, or will all points get to reserve just a little later than anyone booking with a home resort advantage? Will legacy owners all get first crack at their home resort? After all, aren't the points of legacy owners converting equivalent to the points of new point purchasers?

I know I am missing something here....

Sorry, I'm assuming some of the recent info is correct including that legacy owners that convert will have the option of using their week within their season OR taking the points. I was mostly addressing that group. The question is how would Marriott determine the pool of weeks for them to pull from WHEN they want their week and not points and I see 2 options. One is 3 inventories of weeks, weeks that come out of the points inventory before the points then the weeks available to anyone on points. The other options is to simply lump those that haven't converted AND those that have converted but want their weeks that year into one category and let them compete with each other. Don't know what the legalities of each method. Someone who has converted but wants their week will of necessity come before other points owners for a given week. As I was thinking about this issue today I'm wondering if the easiest reservation might be those that have converted but do want their week.

I don't see any reason why Marriott needs more than 1 inventory to handle Legacy, Legacy Points, and Points. I don't see any deed or CCR violation at all from 1 inventory.

They have to have AT LEAST 2 groupings, one for non converted and one for converted. In essence this will work like other resorts that have more than one timesharing component within a single resort (KCR, Papakea, Pono Kai, etc). The only difference here is that the TWO companies will be under the Marriott umbrella and will share services when applicable and appropriate. They might even end up with different total maint fees as we go forward.

 

[taffy19]

If you are talking about this post, when it was initially posted yesterday morning, the photo wasn't available. If it was posted again, I did miss it. Like you said, not sure how.

GregT posted this picture two days ago so the Timeshare Wizard copied it from him because the pictures are identical. I'll bet they are getting some of the news or leaks from this forum here and then decide what to post or not. It's quite different from the "beatthestreet.com" or whatever it used to be called. That was a great website for finding out the real scoop in what was new in this industry. Some of you must remember it.

I Googled for the title "Marriott Vacation Destinations" and this was the only website that popped up at that moment except for several Marriott web pages so the new name must be in their tag line already. Some of them are quite interesting to have a look at. Their new web page should be working soon too.

 

[taffy19]

While it's not advertised I think you'll find that most developers contract with Interval to handle their internal exchange program rather than build their own workforce. There won't be any indication that it's Interval employee's answering your call but Interval is most likely the contracted labor and call center that's running the system. Contracting Interval is probably the most economical way to run their internal exchange program.

This is most likely the reason why they signed a new contract with II but the hotel reservations, that may now also include all the timeshare resorts all over the world, may be handled through the Marriott too.

One time, I did a vacation package with a Marriott Vacation Club person, who knew what he was doing. An other time, during the night, I went straight through the Marriott Rewards 800 number and they took care of it also.

 

[dougp26364]

Just hold on one minute lets not all fall into a false sense of enlightenment. We have no idea how these so called points will convert? Has anyone seen a point conversion table and how that equates into a nights stay at a resort or hotel

I believe that if you look at historical data from the many points systems that already exist you'll see that there is little reason to believe that Perry's worst fears will ever be realized. There's just to much history available for anyone to come to the wild predictions Perry has made.

Now don't mistake my comment as an indication I believe this will be the greatest thing since sliced bread. There are those who will find it to be a great program for their situations, those that find they can take it or leave it and those that find it a complete waste of money. There are legitimate concerns about future availability going forward but, other programs seems to manage just fine. Marriott has a unique owner priority set up with Interval and, no one knows yet how Marriott will distibute developer inventory. So it's a concern.

I'm still waiting for the hard copy to read. I'm not sure if this will work for us or not. While I love both HGVC and DRI's systems, the way we use our Marriott timeshare differs from those situations and I might not be able to say the same about a points based Marriott program. The legacy week concept has my interest. The cost will be the determining factor along with the way in whcih I can utilize the points.

 

[m61376]

Sorry, I'm assuming some of the recent info is correct including that legacy owners that convert will have the option of using their week within their season OR taking the points. I was mostly addressing that group. The question is how would Marriott determine the pool of weeks for them to pull from WHEN they want their week and not points and I see 2 options. One is 3 inventories of weeks, weeks that come out of the points inventory before the points then the weeks available to anyone on points. The other options is to simply lump those that haven't converted AND those that have converted but want their weeks that year into one category and let them compete with each other. Don't know what the legalities of each method. Someone who has converted but wants their week will of necessity come before other points owners for a given week. As I was thinking about this issue today I'm wondering if the easiest reservation might be those that have converted but do want their week.

They have to have AT LEAST 2 groupings, one for non converted and one for converted. In essence this will work like other resorts that have more than one timesharing component within a single resort (KCR, Papakea, Pono Kai, etc). The only difference here is that the TWO companies will be under the Marriott umbrella and will share services when applicable and appropriate. They might even end up with different total maint fees as we go forward.

Dean- Do you think it will be logistically possible to continually calculate the percentage of each available reservation which should be allocated to each group, since the percentage of legacy week owners who have converted but opt to use their owned week will constantly be in flux?

The other question is how the reservation sequence will work. I get that regular non-converted week owners have to be able to reserve as usual, presumably from a pool proportional to their ownership.

What I don't get (and I think it's just me missing something here) is how it will work for legacy converted weeks, who will be opting in and out of a week/point system as they see fit (and possibly using some of each in a given year by splitting their week, if different halves of a lock-off can be used differently)? Will those week owners get first crack at the weeks reserved for points owners? Will it be a third inventory cache? When will legacy points get to reserve at non-home resorts? When will new points owners get to make their reservations, since they won't have a so-called home resort?

I think I need an exchanging for dummies outline

 

[RandR]

I think the problem arises IF Marriott allows point owners or legacy points to reserve weeks on day 1 (at 9AM at the 12 month mark). Week owners don't want to be competing with point owners or legacy points converted from other properties for those reservations. That would leave everyone competing for those prime weeks, much like your worst case scenarios.

I don't see how they could do this. From what I have learned here, a weeks owner is guaranteed to be able to reserve a week at his/her home resort in the season that they bought as long as they do it within the appropriate timeframe. That is why there have to be 2 (at least 2) sets of inventory.

 

[dougp26364]

Let's not forget that Marriott is a timeshare organization and as happy as I am to see no huge screw job coming at us other developers have done exactly that to their owners - screwed them.

We'll see next week and hopefully I won't have to put on my sad face and report that Marriott hosed us.

That's true about other companies but, those are a far cry from Marriott with the possible exception of Starwood. I'm still perplexed by how unhappy Starwood owners appear to be on these forums.

Companies I shy away from would be Festiva, Celebrity and Westgate. There are others that I would consider marginal. Marriott has a 25 year history of treating their owners reasonably well. Betting that's going to change would be betting against the trend or, betting the long shot. I prefer to give Marriott the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise. Not forgetting that we haven't seen anything in writing, I could still be proven wrong.

I still hold reservations about the talk of this legacy owner concept. I can see good things with this prospect but, like you, I can see where owners could get nickel and dimed to death as well. Marriott does have a history of charging a fee for everything an owner does. It's not unreasonable to see fee upon fee for owners who want to switch hit under this legacy plan. I'm wary of that potential issue with this plan when I look at Marriott's fee's as they are today. If Marriott hits owners with a fee for everything then this program could still arrive DOA. We should be able to see in a few more days.

 

[dougp26364]

I don't see how they could do this. From what I have learned here, a weeks owner is guaranteed to be able to reserve a week at his/her home resort in the season that they bought as long as they do it within the appropriate timeframe. That is why there have to be 2 (at least 2) sets of inventory.

Marriott will have to keep inventory seperated. If there are 1000 unit weeks in a season and 250 of those weeks are in points and 750 or those weeks are in the traditional program, then once a week is assigned, either points or weeks based, that week is removed from the potential pool. But, I can see them ALL competing for the same weeks. The only thing is once the 250 points weeks are gone, no other points owner will be able to reserve a week even if weeks remain. The remaining 750 weeks that are weeks based MUST be held for those owners to either use or reserve and deposit for exchange.

 

[PerryM]

I think the problem arises IF Marriott allows point owners or legacy points to reserve weeks on day 1 (at 9AM at the 12 month mark). Week owners don't want to be competing with point owners or legacy points converted from other properties for those reservations. That would leave everyone competing for those prime weeks, much like your worst case scenarios.

I don't think Marriott will ever tell us how it works internally and thus why go through the hassle of multiple inventories?

ALL inventory comes from the deeds and a deed is a deed.

 

[taffy19]

Marriott will have to keep inventory seperated. If there are 1000 unit weeks in a season and 250 of those weeks are in points and 750 or those weeks are in the traditional program, then once a week is assigned, either points or weeks based, that week is removed from the potential pool. But, I can see them ALL competing for the same weeks. The only thing is once the 250 points weeks are gone, no other points owner will be able to reserve a week even if weeks remain. The remaining 750 weeks that are weeks based MUST be held for those owners to either use or reserve and deposit for exchange.

I don't see either how they can mix up these two pools. What happens to a Legacy week owner if he wants to stay a full week at his resort? He must be able to book earlier or all the weeks may have holes in them because of week-end reservations? When people have to fly to their destination, they most likely will want to stay the full seven days. They must have an answer to that already. I believe that they will have a head-start over the pure point users. What about the Legacy owners, who decide to take points instead for a certain year? Will they convert to points to make shorter stays and what are the chances for pure point owners to stay a whole week at a resort? It's giving me a headache thinking about it.

 

[PerryM]

I don't see either how they can mix up these two pools. What happens to a Legacy week owner if he wants to stay a full week at this resort? He must be able to book earlier or all the weeks may have holes in them because of week-end reservations? When people have to fly to their destination, they most likely will want to stay the full seven days. They must have an answer to that already. I believe that they will have a head-start over the pure point users. What about the Legacy owners, who decide to take points instead for a certain year? Will they convert to points to make shorter stays and what are the chances for pure point owners to stay a whole week at a resort? It's giving me a headache thinking about it.

Marriott can address this problem several ways:

• Just ignore it
• Allow less than 7 day reservations to fill gaps in calendar at 90 days

Either one is ok as far as I can imagine. I'd have to read each resorts deeds and CCRs to see if less than 7-day reservations is even mentioned. If not Marriott can handle them any way it wants.

 

[RandR]

I don't think Marriott will ever tell us how it works internally and thus why go through the hassle of multiple inventories?

ALL inventory comes from the deeds and a deed is a deed.

They have to keep it separate. If someone sues, the info would be easy to find out. They have a contractual obligation to legacy owners. They don't have to make it easy for them but they can't violate the contract.

 

[rickandcindy23]

There were over 5K views on this thread just today. I think you guys have quite an audience of looky-loos. I wonder how many are salespeople.

I hope this system is good for all involved and not just another way for Marriott to plunge the resale value of what you all own. I won't be buying a resale now, even though I have been considering it. It's too risky.

I will be watching the count tomorrow, just for grins.

 

[PerryM]

They have to keep it separate. If someone sues, the info would be easy to find out. They have a contractual obligation to legacy owners. They don't have to make it easy for them but they can't violate the contract.

Marriott can't allow a reservation to take place unless a deed is there to back it up. They can't just allow a reservation at week 52 unless a deed has been either put into the trust or put up by a Legacy owner.

No need for multiple inventories.

P.S.

It's going to be fun to watch how Marriott allows Legacy owners to deposit their usage into the system 12 months out with 13 month reservations.

P.P.S.

There is a case for multiple inventories and that's for NEW Marriott Resorts - Marriott can make up any rules it wants for those guys; like 14 month reservations. Of course Legacy Points won't be able to snag anything in new Marriotts - have to buy Points from Marriott to get there.

 

[dougp26364]

Static or dynamic - some folks think static and some dynamic.

Look how far we've come from the initial rumor "Better not buy resale or the new exchange system will screw you" to the latest rumors which paint a very different outcome.

Those 4 years of "Better not buy resale" may turn out to be bogus and that you can buy resale, even next week, and use those weeks in the new system and play Marriott's game that way.

A final tuning next week will have many of us maximizing our Marriott usage under a completely different set of rules to exploit.

Until Marriott changes the rules again...

The problem with the resale owners will get screwed is that it appears to be coming only from the salesmen. I wonder if salesmen have a vested interest in making people be afraid to buy resale.

We both know the rules will change again. Timeshare has always changed and has to change to fit the current trends. How popular do you think timeshare would be if they only sold fixed weeks and there were no exchange companies? Timeshare HAS to evolve or it will die.

 

[dougp26364]

I don't see either how they can mix up these two pools. What happens to a Legacy week owner if he wants to stay a full week at his resort? He must be able to book earlier or all the weeks may have holes in them because of week-end reservations? When people have to fly to their destination, they most likely will want to stay the full seven days. They must have an answer to that already. I believe that they will have a head-start over the pure point users. What about the Legacy owners, who decide to take points instead for a certain year? Will they convert to points to make shorter stays and what are the chances for pure point owners to stay a whole week at a resort? It's giving me a headache thinking about it.

I don't think anyone will have a head start other than mult. week owners and the 13 month rule. If points inventory at a particular resort is exhausted, then points owners only hope to get into that resort would be through external exchange with Interval. Legacy owners who accept points will have their weeks placed into the point pool. Those that elect not to participate in points for that year will keep their ownership in the weeks pool. In the end, points + weeks will have to equal 100% of the days available to be booked.

 

[dougp26364]

Marriott can't allow a reservation to take place unless a deed is there to back it up. They can't just allow a reservation at week 52 unless a deed has been either put into the trust or put up by a Legacy owner.

No need for multiple inventories.

P.S.

It's going to be fun to watch how Marriott allows Legacy owners to deposit their usage into the system 12 months out with 13 month reservations.

P.P.S.

There is a case for multiple inventories and that's for NEW Marriott Resorts - Marriott can make up any rules it wants for those guys; like 14 month reservations. Of course Legacy Points won't be able to snag anything in new Marriotts - have to buy Points from Marriott to get there.

Sure there's a need for seperate or multiple inventory's. If I'm a deeded week owner, I expect to be able to book a week in my season. If points owners are allowed to reserve all the weeks in my season, then Marriott has violated the terms of our agreement for usage. Therefore there MUST be seperate invnetory's to assure that legacy owners have adaquate access to their deeded weeks.

 

[Dean]

Dean- Do you think it will be logistically possible to continually calculate the percentage of each available reservation which should be allocated to each group, since the percentage of legacy week owners who have converted but opt to use their owned week will constantly be in flux?

The other question is how the reservation sequence will work. I get that regular non-converted week owners have to be able to reserve as usual, presumably from a pool proportional to their ownership.

What I don't get (and I think it's just me missing something here) is how it will work for legacy converted weeks, who will be opting in and out of a week/point system as they see fit (and possibly using some of each in a given year by splitting their week, if different halves of a lock-off can be used differently)? Will those week owners get first crack at the weeks reserved for points owners? Will it be a third inventory cache? When will legacy points get to reserve at non-home resorts? When will new points owners get to make their reservations, since they won't have a so-called home resort?

I think I need an exchanging for dummies outline

I do not think it would not be difficult to manage the pools or rooms as I mentioned, either way. Actually they have to at least for 2 groups in the points pool because a given season will have X rooms minus the number that take their room/week instead of points.

In my way of thinking the reservation timing from one group doesn't matter if they are run totally independently. All that really matters is that those that are in points and want their week out, have a chance to do so before the other points owners have access.

Other points systems do this already. For BG and RCI points, you take your week at 12 months out instead of points. IF you take your week, that's simply one less week they have to work with on the points side that year. My assumption would be that you'd have to take your entire unit out in any year you forego the points. I would doubt you'd have the option of taking points on a studio and using the 1 BR or other variations. The other way is possible but far less likely. Also I believe someone suggested in the last day or so that my assumption was the way it would be.

I don't think anyone will have a head start other than mult. week owners and the 13 month rule. If points inventory at a particular resort is exhausted, then points owners only hope to get into that resort would be through external exchange with Interval. Legacy owners who accept points will have their weeks placed into the point pool. Those that elect not to participate in points for that year will keep their ownership in the weeks pool. In the end, points + weeks will have to equal 100% of the days available to be booked.

I'm doubting the 13 month rules survives this long term but we'll see, I hope it does. My assumptions of what we'll lose long term on the weeks side is this and the II internal trading preference.