Speculation About Marriott's New Timeshare Structure [merged]

[jlf58]

George,

I did take it personally. I sold correctly and MANY top salespeople do also. Don't genralize for the actions of a few.

This is really uncalled for and unlike you. He generalized about timeshare salepersons which apparently offended you but he did not insult you personally.

 

[RedDogSD]

I disagree - if a mainland Platinum cannot get a Hawaii week with the same unit size, why would I like it? If you own DSV, are lucky to reserve a March week, and deposit the full 2BR in II - I imagine the odds of getting a 2BR summer week at a place like Waiohai (no lockoffs) are north of 80% (assuming you can take 1 of 10 possible summer weeks). The same goes for a 2BR NCV owner lucky enough to reserve a summer week for trading purposes. In the new system, those odds may be, or are likely to be, exactly zero...

...unless you buy more points of course!

I said Pretty Solid trades most of the time. We cannot always compare everything to getting Hawaii. If you wanted Hawaii, buy Hawaii. However, I think that a NCV or DSV will be able to get anything else on the Mainland most of the time. I own Hawaii already so I don't need to use my DSV week to get into Hawaii. So, the small portion of Marriott Platinum owners who only want to use it to trade into Hawaii might not be happy, but I think that most of us might trade into lots of other spots in the world and will be generally happy. I plan to go back to DSV or Shadow Ridge, using a smaller unit, during the Fall (same temp as the Winter, but not as popular) and maybe I can get several weeks. We will see.

 

[l2trade]

Based on what I've seen in this thread, you have pretty good analytical skills. Those skills are the exact opposite of what you need to be a successful timeshare salesman. The best timeshare salesman are larger than life. They sell emotion, not logic. They sell a dream, not a defensible investment.

I would guess that you wouldn't be able to sell one timeshare unit in 60-days. It's a very difficult job. 100% of the tour guests that sit in front of you have no intentions of buying. Logic, doesn't sell them. And, you've got to get these people to trust you enough where they make the second or third most expensive purchase in their life within a couple hours of meeting you and without checking out the product when you leave.

When sales managers tell you that you should be a timeshare salesman, they are mocking and making fun of you. They don't actually believe you will be any good. They just want to find a way to torture you in a different way. They actually think you suck and would love nothing more than make you believe you could be a timeshare salesman and take a few sales tours.

I agree with everything you just said. I know I would fail miserably at it. Thank you for the compliment.

They may think it torture and mock me later. Who cares? I am truly entertained by it all. It is a fun puzzle for me to sort out truths from lies. It helps me stay current on it all. I enjoy chatting timeshares... I mean, look at me?! This hobby is just plain crazy, eh? I walk out with one last free soda, my free gift and a smile on my face.

But, getting back on topic about the Marriott system changes... I feel I must stay current on how the industry is changing in order to keep getting the best exchanges. Like the concerns PerryM raises, I see these changes negatively impacting some of my current trading strategies. While I prefer the status quo on this topic, adjusting to changing times is a critical part of succeeding at the trading game. I cannot stop this. Heck, I'm not even an owner yet and held off buying because of it. From what I've learned, I see some potential new vacation planning opportunities I like in this as well. I will consider a resale legacy deed purchase to supplement my non-point ownerships if the details allow me to affordably do what I think (hope) they might. As my alias says, I love to trade!

 

[Latravel]

Top sales people in companies who sell products worth more than $10,000 make more than $250,000 is most industries.

I agree completely. I don't like it when tuggers put down timeshare salespeople. There is a talent to sales and not everyone can do it. My husband is in sales and I readily identify that he has a rare talent.

There are many people who try sales but the ones that make less than $100K, which is not much in sales, don't last long. They get fired for not producing. Many industries dont wan't to keep non-producers around since it results in lost potential sales. They weed out the good ones and pay them VERY well (meaning over $300K up to $600K per year, as in my husband's company).

So it's very ignorant to think they are low paying workers who tell lies all day long. And it's very arrogant to think you can do a better job just because you know a thing or two about the system. I think that is the point Fletch was making but he was more to the point than me.

 

[melroseman]

Can we hit 100 viewing at the same time???

 

[BocaBum99]

George,

I did take it personally. I sold correctly and MANY top salespeople do also. Don't genralize for the actions of a few.

The vast majority of timeshare sales people across all timeshare developers intentionally or unintentionally lie about their product and how it works. The product is too complex and sales success is so reliant on selling emotions that this is inevitably the nature of the beast.

I've even met a Marriott in house sales guy who claimed to be a top salesman for Grand Vista. He told me to purchase a lock off to trade for Cypress Harbour and rent them on eBay. I was very surprised he told me to do this to make a sale.

 

[rpluskota]

Feel bad for anyone else looking to get a topic covered other than this thread......ha.

As stated earlier, I think the folks that have plat/gold weeks in a high demand area where the supply is not incredibly abundant will like the point system.

The real question is could a gold week at marco island or St.Thomas as an example, where they have one resort with high demand actually have higher value that a plat in orlando. It will be interesting to have that answer.

I guess as a legacy owner the ability to opt in and out will be nice.

I did ask a sales rep if the mf's are going to rise for legacy owner's, I was told no.

 

[tombo]

Thanks to Fletch and Boca for making clear what I assumed all TUGGERS knew, and that was that successful timeshare sales people make well over $100,000 a year, and yes many make $200,000 or more. I have never sold timeshares but have a friend who did quite well at it. I have sold purely commission sales and those jobs typically pay huge incomes to those who can actually sell.

The problem with the timeshare sales and any purelly commission job is the stress. You are only as good as last month, last week, or even yesterday. You sell 2 Monday, one Tuesday, 2 Wedenesday and want to take Thursday off and the sales mgr says you can't take off thursday, you are hot and on a roll. You have to keep selling while you are hot. Two weeks later you haven't sold one in 5 days and need a day off because your head is about to explode, but your sales mgr says do you really feel that you can afford to take off work with no sales out this week? The pressure put on you by your boss, by yourself is relentless. It will make most start to smoke (I did), most will start to drink or start drinking more (ditto), and many sales people will get high blood pressure and need nerve pills (dodged that bullet). the pay is high for those who can sell, but the stress typically makes the career a short one even though the money is good.

If Fletch and Boca will be totally honest they will tell you that people who buy timeshares retail are hard to find. Sales people usually have to give many tours before they actually find a buyer. When they do find a buyer they make a lot of money on that person and they want to make more and more money on that person if possible. If you find a meal ticket (buyer) you will work them for all they are worth. Fletch and Boca can tell you what people who buy multiple weeks are referred to by sales people since I am not familiar with timeshare sales lingo, but in most sales situations when you buy for full asking price you are referred to as a laydown, someone I hit a home run (or multiple home runs) off of, or some similar terminology used by sales people to refer to people that you can sell easily and often repeatedly. Believe me or not, it is a fact in most commission sales.

So if you bought retail and your WONDERFUL sales rep constantly mails you post cards and e-mails informing you of sales and bargains you now know the real reason. It is not because he is so wonderful and wanting to inform you of great bargains that you might otherwise miss out on, it is because he found a meal ticket (you) and he is milking it for all it is worth. It is much easier to keep selling a laydown that you have sold before, and possibly before, and possibly before than it is to take strangers on timeshare tours and sell them. You will sell more and more to the same person until they are broke, dead, or finally refuse to buy again. The saying keep calling them till they buy or die is a mantra. If you have never been in commission sales this might sound cruel, greedy, harsh, etc, but it is reality.

And now you knowwww... the rest..... of the timeshare sales story.

 

[DanCali]

It is pretty shocking to me as well since only 5% of individuals in the United States make over 100,000 and only 1.5% of households make over $250,000. These guys sure don't act Rich. I rarely see nice watches or shoes (the real trick to find people with money are the watches and the shoes although some rich people make a point of wearing Timex and Reebok to throw you off). Other signs are manicured hands. I have to pick these people out a lot in my job because these are the people who will pay me to do what I do. So, if the TS salespeople are that well off, they sure hide it well.

$250K won't get you that far in a city like San Francisco if you own a house (median price over $750K; average over $1M - and that's including the "bad" parts) and send your children to a good (i.e., private) school. By the way, this is Nancy Pelosi's district... (and I'll settle for that factual comment rather than politicize the issue)

 

[RedDogSD]

I agree completely. I don't like it when tuggers put down timeshare salespeople. There is a talent to sales and not everyone can do it. My husband is in sales and I readily identify that he has a rare talent.

I don't put down Salespeople at all, but I don't like liars. All sales is a BIT of stretching the truth, but I firmlyl believe in selling things you actually believe in and not mis-representing them. The last salesperson I met from Hilton was a straight shooter. He never lied to me about anything and did his best to sell me their system. I left there in love with their system. He understood that I could not justify the Retail price.

Some TS guys (like the ones I ran into with Wyndham and Consolidated in Vegas) are pure liars who tried to make it seem like the value of our weeks would go up like crazy (what you are paying $40,000 now will be worth $55,000 in 5 years) and that renting them was so easy.

Good salespeople know their product and understand how to push the right buttons. The products should sell themselves. I have to sell engagements to clients that sometimes cost a few million dollars or more. I never BS them. I do analysis of their problems and lay out solutions that I can help them with. Some can't get over the sticker price, and others take the plunge. I have to face that client for a long time after the deal is done, so I better not screw them.

 

[BocaBum99]

I agree with everything you just said. I know I would fail miserably at it. Thank you for the compliment.

They may think it torture and mock me later. Who cares? I am truly entertained by it all. It is a fun puzzle for me to sort out truths from lies. It helps me stay current on it all. I enjoy chatting timeshares... I mean, look at me?! This hobby is just plain crazy, eh? I walk out with one last free soda, my free gift and a smile on my face.

But, getting back on topic about the Marriott system changes... I feel I must stay current on how the industry is changing in order to keep getting the best exchanges. Like the concerns PerryM raises, I see these changes negatively impacting some of my current trading strategies. While I prefer the status quo on this topic, adjusting to changing times is a critical part of succeeding at the trading game. I cannot stop this. Heck, I'm not even an owner yet and held off buying because of it. From what I've learned, I see some potential new vacation planning opportunities I like in this as well. I will consider a resale legacy deed purchase to supplement my non-point ownerships if the details allow me to affordably do what I think (hope) they might. As my alias says, I love to trade!

I am an extreme version of you. I got so into it that I had to quit my job to manage my timeshare portfolio and get more time back to travel.

Just like the top 5% of timeshare salesmen make all the money, the top 5% of timeshare owners reap most of the rewards. I feel pretty confident that this new Marriott Points product will be a motherload of great vacations for cheap.

Marriott will have to create simple rules in order to make the product sellable and understandable. That over simplication will create opportunity that the top 5% will exploit until they close those loopholes and open new ones. It's fun figuring it out and travelling for peanuts based on these system inefficiencies.

 

[RedDogSD]

$250K won't get you that far in a city like San Francisco if you own a house (median price over $750K; average over $1M - and that's including the "bad" parts) and send your children to a good (i.e., private) school. By the way, this is Nancy Pelosi's district... (and I'll settle for that factual comment rather than politicize the issue)

Yeah, I know. I grew up in Walnut Creek and worked in SF for a few years. You will probably not be able to buy a house in the City if you only make 250k. You can move to Bay Point and take the Bart train to work. It is a cruel place, but most won't move away.

 

[l2trade]

...
I did take it personally. I sold correctly and MANY top salespeople do also. Don't genralize for the actions of a few. ...

Fletch, I'm sorry you took it personally. I thought top sales producers had thicker skin and were better at rejection than socially awkward, analytical types like me. Maybe I was wrong.

Also, perhaps we may have met sometime back during a sales presentation. Were you the one who walked in to help out clueless sales tour rep at Ko Olina? I was the nerdy looking guy who brought my wireless laptop and pulled up my II trading history, family vacation photo album, eBay and TUG. Yes, in hindsight, I agree I took things too far to prove what I was claiming was truth. For that, I am sorry and thanks for gift & all the memories.

Let's try to put this embarrassing episode behind us and focus on the issues at hand. Thanks for the helpful reminder to keep my ego in check.

 

[DanCali]

I said Pretty Solid trades most of the time. We cannot always compare everything to getting Hawaii. If you wanted Hawaii, buy Hawaii. However, I think that a NCV or DSV will be able to get anything else on the Mainland most of the time. I own Hawaii already so I don't need to use my DSV week to get into Hawaii. So, the small portion of Marriott Platinum owners who only want to use it to trade into Hawaii might not be happy, but I think that most of us might trade into lots of other spots in the world and will be generally happy. I plan to go back to DSV or Shadow Ridge, using a smaller unit, during the Fall (same temp as the Winter, but not as popular) and maybe I can get several weeks. We will see.

My point wasn't necessarily regarding buying or trading to Hawaii. One doesn't need to buy in Hawaii if they don't go every year, but many would like to visit there once in a while.

My point was that a Platinum owner diligent/lucky to get a high demand week in the current system is better off with II in terms of "trading power" than in a points system where they get the average trading power of their season. It doesn't matter if it's NCV summer, DSV spring, MCV spring, HHI summer or if you trade every year or every other year. A 130-150 TDI week at one of those resorts will always do better than the average TDI of the Platinum season, which is what you'll get in a points system. Owners who reserve those weeks have more than a fair chance to trade to a similar size unit almost anywhere within Marriott, including Hawaii (possibly excluding new resorts for the first couple of years).

If one bought multiple units to maximize their chances to get such a week in the current system, why pay Marriott $169 per unit per year (+ conversion fees) to get less? The main difference between the system is the method of exchanging. If the "trading power" (I realize this means different things to different people, but I don't consider getting 3 weeks in Orlando for my 1 week such a big bonus) is higher with II, why switch and pay more?

 

[dougp26364]

I think the structure that L2trade suggests is a good one that can work. It would be very easy for Marriott to get rid of a resort. All it needs to do is build or buy a new one and sell the old one. Just swap out an equal amount of inventory into and out of the system. Very easy to do since the Trust will own all of the deeds. It can sell of whole condos or even whole resorts a lot easier.

Basically, what everyone will own is an undivided interest in the entire Trust. Or, a number of shares of all the deeded weeks and units.

While this is true, it also eleminates those weeks from being sold. So if they get rid of one resort with 1,000 weeks in the trust, transfer them to the new resort, that's 1,000 unit weeks at a new resort they can't sell. That's bound to have an effect on the cost structure for the new resort if you insantly remove 1,000 unit weeks from new sales. Build and swap appears to be a great way to build a new resort and then cut the amount of inventory available to sell. That would not be a very efficient way to remove your name from a timeshare.

 

[billymach4]

Developer Sales and Purchasers

Lets be real here.

Someone has to take the plunge. I wish developer timeshares would sell themselves like sliced bread. I still get strange looks from people when I tell them about my timeshares.

So I truly thank the good honest timeshare sales teams. Marriott almost sold me on my first TS tour, but I rescinded. I am glad I did. Yes they have a great product, and resales are my ticket. I got savvy like all of the Tuggers here. Yes some of you bought Developer Full Freight. Still a good deal if you bought from Marriott.

So I applaud both Good Honest Hard Working Timeshare Sales, and Developer buyers.

Without your hard work and money we all collectively would not be enjoying our great vacations!

Now lets get back to business here. I feel like it is Y2K all over again. Who is going to get the 1st real scoop here on the new (Still Rumored) TS system. OK I am now a believer!

DaveM and Fletch you have both made me a follower of the new system.

 

[davidvel]

I would think it would not be a big deal IF Marriott does not put weeks it owns (via ROFR) in the trust. If when they use ROFR to get a unit at a low price and resell it they sell it as points without a deed the trust could end up with a lage stake in all current resorts.

Ray

That just isn't how property works. What they "re-sell" may not be a deeded interest, but the deed is still there. The unit, the physical property is a deeded interest in land (subject to the governing documents).

No one, including Marriott or HOA, can make that deed and its covenants go away (yes there are inapplicable exceptions). So they grant the ownership interest to the trust. The unit and its usage rights will always be ultimately controlled by what's in that deed and the covenants.

 

[dougp26364]

If L2trade is correct, I will probably be purchasing a Marriott resale and then enrolling it into points for internal Flexchange purposes. I'll buy the Marriott that provides me the lowest annual total cost of ownership over 3 years. Total cost of ownership will include cost of capital and expected terminal value of selling my ownership after 3-5 years. Probably a Platinum unit somewhere.

At this point I'm not seeing any downside to not belonging to the points system as a "legacy" owner. It appears Marriott will allow me to keep what I own or dip into the points program when it's to my advantage. If that's really the case why wouldn't every current owner join the program? We could keep our Ocean Pointe week as is unless there comes a time we don't want to use it anymore and, with our Vegas week, we can use it when we want to or go to points for years we want to go somewhere else.

I'm wondering if the program will allow for borrowing/saving points. If you can jump in/jump out, how will borrow/save work and will it be an option? Borrow/save programs are what allow owners of lower value weeks to move up if/when they want to.

 

[SueDonJ]

... So if you bought retail and your WONDERFUL sales rep constantly mails you post cards and e-mails informing you of sales and bargains you now know the real reason. It is not because he is so wonderful and wanting to inform you of great bargains that you might otherwise miss out on, it is because he found a meal ticket (you) and he is milking it for all it is worth. It is much easier to keep selling a laydown that you have sold before, and possibly before, and possibly before than it is to take strangers on timeshare tours and sell them. You will sell more and more to the same person until they are broke, dead, or finally refuse to buy again. The saying keep calling them till they buy or die is a mantra. If you have never been in commission sales this might sound cruel, greedy, harsh, etc, but it is reality.

And now you knowwww... the rest..... of the timeshare sales story.

What about if you bought retail and your WONDERFUL sales rep doesn't email or telephone or harass you in any way but lets you know she's available any time if you have questions, and the only time you ever hear from her is when you've initiated contact? What about if you think she's WONDERFUL because you've never heard anything from her that wasn't the truth, or didn't help you use your timeshare to get the best vacations possible? What about if you believe that she's WONDERFUL because she presents the product exactly as it is and doesn't use any psychological mumbojumbo or greedy sales weasel tricks on you to try to suck you dry?

I'm with Fletch here - there ARE sales reps who are able to sell at high volume and collect very good paychecks because they're honestly presenting a good product. Here on TUG those WONDERFUL sales reps are far too often lumped in with the bad apples, and don't get the credit they deserve for simply doing their jobs the best they can so that they and the folks they sell to are happy in the end.

 

[dougp26364]

I am an extreme version of you. I got so into it that I had to quit my job to manage my timeshare portfolio and get more time back to travel.

Just like the top 5% of timeshare salesmen make all the money, the top 5% of timeshare owners reap most of the rewards. I feel pretty confident that this new Marriott Points product will be a motherload of great vacations for cheap.

Marriott will have to create simple rules in order to make the product sellable and understandable. That over simplication will create opportunity that the top 5% will exploit until they close those loopholes and open new ones. It's fun figuring it out and travelling for peanuts based on these system inefficiencies.

I think it's the idea that Marriott will allow me to jump in/jump out that has me stunned. It's an unbelievable benefit that I just didn't see Marriott putting on the table. It may be the first time in 10 years that a timeshare company has made me sit still and blink a couple of times.

 

[l2trade]

...
Now lets get back to business here. I feel like it is Y2K all over again. Who is going to get the 1st real scoop here on the new (Still Rumored) TS system.
...

I think the 1st real scoop here already happened. Please look back some pages to see what I posted. Yes, it is hearsay from numerous recent conversations with Marriott sales reps. I believe the facts I was told and summarized from these contacts. I understand most folks will wait until they have something official in writing. Nothing more anyone can say without leaking or stealing official internal documents. I would not condone such illegal behavior. I cannot imagine a 1st real scoop shared any different from what we've shared already before the official system rolls out.

 

[RedDogSD]

I think it's the idea that Marriott will allow me to jump in/jump out that has me stunned. It's an unbelievable benefit that I just didn't see Marriott putting on the table. It may be the first time in 10 years that a timeshare company has made me sit still and blink a couple of times.

I love it as well, but I definitely think that we will rarely if ever see Marriott Hawaii weeks in Interval any longer. Those owners (technically I still am one until ex-wife completes transfer of Ko-Olina) will either use the week in Hawaii, or take the points since it will almost always take less points to go elsewhere in the system. With Hilton, since they have not covered every area yet, people still have to use RCI. Marriott has covered a great deal of the country, so those who have to go outside of Marriott and use II will be few and far between.

Here is hoping that Marriott Hawaii owners want to go to Oregon, Vermont and New York since Marriott is not there yet.

 

[billymach4]

I think the 1st real scoop here already happened. Please look back some pages to see what I posted. Yes, it is hearsay from numerous recent conversations with Marriott sales reps. I believe the facts I was told and summarized from these contacts. I understand most folks will wait until they have something official in writing. Nothing more anyone can say without leaking or stealing official internal documents. I would not condone such illegal behavior. I cannot imagine a 1st real scoop shared any different from what we've shared already before the official system rolls out.

Good Job!

 

[BocaBum99]

I think it's the idea that Marriott will allow me to jump in/jump out that has me stunned. It's an unbelievable benefit that I just didn't see Marriott putting on the table. It may be the first time in 10 years that a timeshare company has made me sit still and blink a couple of times.

It's not unusual and it will cost money to participate. Think about it from Marriott's point of view. In the program that L2trade describes, here is what Marriott gets:

1) Upfront fee from new program participants with guaranteed annual dues. That is free money for what amounts to a points for deposit program.

2) Control of inventory that is deposited. This is what they are really aiming to get, IMO.

3) A way to run 2 separate programs as the two programs begin to merge inventory. I do believe that Marriott will buy inventory off the open market to put into the system over time. And, they will likely take a lot of trade ins in exchange for additional points purchases.

I'm not saying that this is what Marriott would do. But, if they do, it won't be that bad for Marriott and for current owners. Basically what Marriott will be saying is that they will be operating two systems and you can pick the one you want going forward. Marrriott has a new product, so if you want access to it, you need to buy in via a developer purchase or a conversion.

 

[l2trade]

I think it's the idea that Marriott will allow me to jump in/jump out that has me stunned. It's an unbelievable benefit that I just didn't see Marriott putting on the table. It may be the first time in 10 years that a timeshare company has made me sit still and blink a couple of times.

I agree. Based on this pitch, I would seriously consider upgrading IF I were already an owner with a high points to MF value deed and the introductory upgrade price is low.

In my situation, I will wait to see what rights future legacy resale owners get or don't get to join the points system.