Speculation About Marriott's New Timeshare Structure [merged]

[BocaBum99]

I agree. Based on this pitch, I would seriously consider upgrading IF I were already an owner with a high points to MF value deed and the introductory upgrade price is low.

In my situation, I will wait to see what rights future legacy resale owners get or don't get to join the points system.

There will be a catch that we don't know about yet.

 

[rsackett]

Quote:
Originally Posted by rsackett
"I would think it would not be a big deal IF Marriott does not put weeks it owns (via ROFR) in the trust. If when they use ROFR to get a unit at a low price and resell it they sell it as points without a deed the trust could end up with a lage stake in all current resorts.

Ray "

That just isn't how property works. What they "re-sell" may not be a deeded interest, but the deed is still there. The unit, the physical property is a deeded interest in land (subject to the governing documents).

No one, including Marriott or HOA, can make that deed and its covenants go away (yes there are inapplicable exceptions). So they grant the ownership interest to the trust. The unit and its usage rights will always be ultimately controlled by what's in that deed and the covenants.

I did not mean to imply that the deed went away. What I ment was the deeds bought through ROFR would not be held by individual owners but rather in the "Trust", and as such it would be harder for Mariott to dump that property. When they anounce that they are dumping that propety the valuw would drop, and the trust would need to sell those weeks. Also the number of "Points" in the Trust would decrease and Marriott would need to rplace those points somehow or buy back points to make the net zero again.

Ray

 

[taffy19]

I feel better now

This is actually quite interesting. Wondering why they would be doing a webinar on how to trade your week THROUGH II if they are looking to do it themselves.

I just talked to our resort and to owner services. Both told me that we will love the new program as we have the best of both worlds. He also said that we would really like it since we own at the MOC and when I told him that we own a fixed week/unit, he said that is even better. I hope it is true.

They didn't ask who I was as I asked him first about how to still be able to sign up for the webinar that I received an email about and that will take place tomorrow and then I casually asked about the changes starting next week. He told me that he couldn't discuss it yet but that I will be receiving an email on Monday. :whoopie:

He then referred me to the other department, who gave me the following link so that I can still sign up for tomorrow. This is a complete different website that I posted here earlier in case anyone is interested too.

http://marriottlearningcenter.conferencing.com/Interval_International_Exchanges_EN_US.htm

 

[billymach4]

I just talked to our resort and to owner services. Both told me that we will love the new program as we have the best of both worlds. He also said that we would really like it since we own at the MOC and when I told him that we own a fixed week/unit, he said that is even better. I hope it is true.

They didn't ask who I was as I asked him first about how to still be able to sign up for the webinar that I received an email about and that will take place tomorrow and then I casually asked about the changes starting next week. He told me that he couldn't discuss it yet but that I will be receiving an email on Monday. :whoopie:

He then referred me to the other department, who gave me the following link so that I can still sign up for tomorrow. This is a complete different website that I posted here earlier in case anyone is interested too.

http://marriottlearningcenter.conferencing.com/Interval_International_Exchanges_EN_US.htm

If you have the latest copy of Marriott Interval World magazine that website
Marriottlearningcenter.com is mentioned on the Welcome page in David Babich's message.

You will get redirected to http://marriottlearningcenter.conferencing.com/

 

[gmarine]

George,

I did take it personally. I sold correctly and MANY top salespeople do also. Don't genralize for the actions of a few.

Hey Fletch,

I understand, but it didnt seem like l2trade meant to insult you or any honest salesperson in any way. Even an honest salesperson like yourself would probably admit that the vast majority of timeshare salespersons are a bit less than honest.

I've gone on quite a few Marriott presentations and have been both surprised by the honesty and surprised by the dishonesty of the sales people. However, at least Marriott has some honest sales people. I dont think that can be said about every developer.

 

[DanCali]

At this point I'm not seeing any downside to not belonging to the points system as a "legacy" owner. It appears Marriott will allow me to keep what I own or dip into the points program when it's to my advantage. If that's really the case why wouldn't every current owner join the program?

I agree that it appears one has nothing to lose by joining. But if you consider it carefully, you'll see that's not necessarily the case.

First off, even if you can jump in and out, you'd probably still owe $169 when using home resort or doing an II weeks exchange. That's around a 15% hike to the average annual MFs one currently pays. You also have the upfront fee which, if the upgrade doesn't transfer on resale, would be money you'd never see back (if it does transfer on resale, I'm assuming an upgraded unit will be more valuable on the resale market than a legacy week).

This is all about changing the way you make exchanges - home resort use would be more costly in the points system due to annual fees. So if one bought mostly to use, there is no real need to join. If one exchanges, it's a matter of where you exchange to. As I said before, I believe Hawaii and Caribbean Platinum exchanges from a mainland location will not be feasible without buying more points. One would normally have a better shot with II be depositing a strong trader... Of course if all the Hawaii and Caribbean owners join the points system, II exchanges may be tougher but the competition will also be smaller so it could be a wash.

Rather than say one has nothing to lose by joining, I say it's better to wait and see unless you really think you'll benefit and the conversion price down the road is much higher... Even then, I'm sure there will be conversion "specials" down the road, whenever the points system needs more inventory.

 

[l2trade]

Marriott Vacation Club, Asia Pacific Member?

Marriott employee just claimed to me that point systems are nothing new to them. I am told they've successfully run this point system for years and it served as a guide for upcoming changes in the US. Asia Pacific will be provided as an example that Marriott already knows what they are doing when they introduce the point system in the US. Does anyone know the facts about this? Please help me out to validate the facts (good & bad) on this one.

http://www.marriottvillas.com/asiapac/discover_asia.jsp

When you become a Marriott Vacation Club, Asia Pacific Member, you receive exclusive access and privileges at Marriott's most popular resorts. All that is required of you to become a Member is to purchase points to be redeemed for the holiday of your dreams.

Points offer you the flexibility of designing a holiday getaway your way at one of the Marriott Vacation Club, Asia Pacific resorts in Thailand, Hawaii and Las Vegas. In addition points can be exchanged for holiday privileges at other exciting destinations around the world.

 

[dioxide45]

A couple things:

For those thinking that II won't get any more Marriott weeks are mistaken. There are thousands of non-Marriott owners who exchange in to Marriott resorts. Those are weeks that no other Marriott owner wanted. A points system isn't going to create more Marriott owners wanting those weeks. Sure Marriott is going to place developer owned inventory in to a points system, but it won't let them go unused. Unreserved and developer owned weeks will still find their way to II just like before, just perhaps not as soon as you are used to. Imagine 25000 developer deposits and perhaps only 10000 owners in points. See the connection or lack thereof.

Marriott also won't suddenly start exercising ROFR to fund any new system. They don't need prime weeks anymore, they have lots of unsold non prime inventory to unload, and they will be able to sell it as prime. Marriott doesn't want more weeks, they can't afford to hold the ones they have.

 

[jimf41]

There are only two groups of people who have a problem with people who bought or are buying resale, sale people and some people who bought developer.

I think you have this turned around. I've never heard of a an owner who bought from the developer say one cross word about a resale buyer. On the other hand resale buyers constantly demean those who bought from the developer. As the announcement of the new system gets closer it seems that some resale buyers are worried that their decision to save money by purchasing resale won't have quite the luster it once had.

This is foolish for two reasons. First, I don't think Marriott is going to offer a fantastically better opportunity to its developer folks as it does to it resale folks. A little better maybe but not a lot. It just doesn't make much business sense. Second, they are not implementing this plan to improve the lot of developer folks. They are doing it to make money, they better be I'm a stockholder. So if you want to make money from your current group of owners why only target half of them? I say make money from everybody you can. That makes good business sense.

 

[NJMOM2]

I've even met a Marriott in house sales guy who claimed to be a top salesman for Grand Vista. He told me to purchase a lock off to trade for Cypress Harbour and rent them on eBay. I was very surprised he told me to do this to make a sale.

I had that same saleman the last time were went on an owner's update. I told him it's against II rules to rent an exchange. He then said it's okay along as he is only renting a Marriott exchange. When he left the room I showed my husband the paragraph in the Interval book that stated you cannot rent an exchange period.

I can't wait for this new program to be announced!!! I have pages to read after a leaving my computer for a few hours. We are quickly catching up the the Aruba thread.

 

[dioxide45]

I think you have this turned around. I've never heard of a an owner who bought from the developer say one cross word about a resale buyer.

Are you sure? Perry bought resale and has been a target many times. Any person who bought a resale lockoff and uses each side to "trade up" has been a target.

 

[m61376]

A couple of things in the preceding few pages peaked my interest- one was the comment that owners of a given resort might not actually be able to book some of the weeks in their owned season, since different nights would command different point values.

I haven't read any leaks on how points would be assigned/properties valued, which I find a bit curious.

I understand the concept of legacy weeks and owners being able to opt in and out (which seems like the best of both worlds). But would they be reserving with weeks or points, and can half of the unit be used to reserve at one's home resort and the other part converted into points?

Along with the opting in and out- will everyone be getting to reserve at the same time, or will legacy owners reserving a week in their season have first crack (both those who have converted into the new system and those that have simply retained their original rights)?

 

[jimf41]

Are you sure? Perry bought resale and has been a target many times. Any person who bought a resale lockoff and uses each side to "trade up" has been a target.

I could be wrong. Maybe you could dig up a thread that didn't start off disparaging a developer purchase in which a developer purchaser just starts sounding off about how evil resale buyers are. I wouldn't pick one that Perry started or participated in though. While some folks may strike back at him it's my observation that he usually fires off a few rounds first.

 

[dioxide45]

Along with the opting in and out- will everyone be getting to reserve at the same time, or will legacy owners reserving a week in their season have first crack (both those who have converted into the new system and those that have simply retained their original rights)?

This will be important to know. After the switch Marriott will be selling everyone enough point to get prime time just about anywhere. This equates to more owners of prime time than the amount of prime time in the system.

 

[Dean]

Ok, so I called Marriott Owner Services. 4 days from the official unveiling, and they have heard absolutely nothing about it. Really? Someone please tell me what company they have ever worked for that is getting ready to unveil a program that will turn their entire business on it's ear and yet they have provided absolutely no info, NO TRAINING to their front line folks????

Marriott has been around way too long to run that stupidly. Marriott is all about training programs. There's NO WAY they would unveil this WITHOUT having their front line folks ready to answer every question they could possibly get. My week is coming up in a month. I plan on spending my time getting ready to ENJOY it, not getting lost in this crazy thread any longer.

More likely those employees have been threatened by with losing their job if they discuss the matter.

When all this goes down, can someone answer these two questions for me:

1: Will points members be able to bank and borrow points from one year to the next?

2: Will points members be able to tranfer points from one member to another member?

Joe

Those 2 items are on my check list already.

What do you think would happen if marriott ever drops a resort? In the new system Marriott will own a lot of deeds and need to sell those. I would think that would be a BIG incentive Not to drop any resort in the future.

Ray

They've dropped 9 so far. I've posted that I suspect a few are already on the chopping block and likely won't be included in any new program, we'll see. Ultimately what happens if Marriott drops a resort is those who own at that resort or are in a trust from that resort cease to be a member of the club.

You are correct. I have received both sales pitches at length. I asked numerous questions for comparative analysis to see if I should buy now or wait. There are pros and cons on each side. Only today allows me to buy the old system (retail - LMAO) with the option to wait and rescind. Of course, the sales rep wants to sell to me today, but also doesn't want to talk me out of buying Sunday's product if I don't move fast enough. For the record, I will do neither.

If Marriott wants my business, it will be a legacy resale deed. I can afford to wait a year or two to see how all this plays out. I own too many timeshares already. My main interest in all of this is to understand the implications of the change well enough, so I know how it impacts II availability for me as a non-Marriott owner exchanging in. I was planning to dump my Starwood timeshares and switch to Marriott last fall, but I heard the early elusive rumors direct from the mouth of a Marriott Sales VP at the time.

Real info is helpful, along with a couple of others, yours is based on real info, the rest of us are just beating our gums. I'm sure we all know that what you've shared is to the best of your knowledge currently and it's likely that something you shared will end up not being correct because even with things that are planned in advance, things change. I think I can speak for the group in saying thanks for the info, effort and the willingness to share. IT is much appreciated, THANK YOU.

 

[jlf58]

no problem

Fletch, I'm sorry you took it personally. I thought top sales producers had thicker skin and were better at rejection than socially awkward, analytical types like me. Maybe I was wrong.

Also, perhaps we may have met sometime back during a sales presentation. Were you the one who walked in to help out clueless sales tour rep at Ko Olina? I was the nerdy looking guy who brought my wireless laptop and pulled up my II trading history, family vacation photo album, eBay and TUG. Yes, in hindsight, I agree I took things too far to prove what I was claiming was truth. For that, I am sorry and thanks for gift & all the memories.

Let's try to put this embarrassing episode behind us and focus on the issues at hand. Thanks for the helpful reminder to keep my ego in check.

 

[dioxide45]

Oh, I still say its all just a rumor...

 

[Dean]

How can you not expect the maintenance fees going up when people can check in and out every day? They have to have more cleaning staff and it will cost you wear and tear to the condos.

The systeme will be more flexible because you can travel to a certain destination and stay in a Marriott condo or a hotel with the new point system.

Marriott recently received a reward for their super duper reservation system that is ready for global growth so the program must be very sophisticated and can handle all the challenges that we are wondering about, I hope.

Some costs go up and some go down, overall a more flexible system will cost more though I doubt that much. DVC is about 30-40% higher than a comparable Marriott even with the included transportation. My guess is around 20-30% higher overall but it depends on how much pay to play they do (extra housekeeping, etc). Spreading checkins out likely reduces total numbers of employees but increases full time employees somewhat.

We walked away with different understandings on this point. I cannot believe with certainty that there won't be some exceptions at the retail 'ROFR/resale' purchase level. So, speculatively speaking, I am inclined to strongly agree with you. However, I was told again and again and again that Marriott will no longer sell anything but points from the TRUST. Time will tell how true that claim is and what exceptions, if any, exist.

I would be very surprised if they sold deeded weeks going forward. Maybe for any resorts not included in the system if applicable, maybe a few EOY currently on the books and a transition period for resales already in the works.

 

[l2trade]

This will be important to know. After the switch Marriott will be selling everyone enough point to get prime time just about anywhere. This equates to more owners of prime time than the amount of prime time in the system.

Prime time nights will cost more points (money) than low demand nights. This is similar to the way hotel pricing varies by seasonal demand.

This is a big change from the legacy weeks model. Under that model, every owner pays the same home resort MF per week, regardless which week they end up reserving. There will be a greater incentive for points only owners to travel off season if they want to stretch their points into more nights. This would not be the case if the MF prices were held the same per night year round, as they are today.

Legacy week owners can continue to book their home resort week or trade with II weeks via the old rules. However, some owners will find it advantageous to convert their week to points and stretch those points at other resorts to travel additional nights (or weeks).

I highly doubt every points owner will be fighting over the top resorts and times, if they now cost the most in points. If it were me, more often I'd probably look to stretch my travel points by not picking the most expensive time to stay.

 

[jlf58]

it used to go higher than that sometimes

The high money makers are certainly the minority but the best are/were making $250,000 or more. I know of one rep that made $60,000k in ONE month selling out of Maui. Not too shabby.

 

[RandR]

I highly doubt every points owner will be fighting over the top resorts and times, if they now cost the most in points. If it were me, more often I'd probably look to stretch my travel points by not picking the most expensive time to stay.

But anyone with kids or school teachers will need the times when they are off from school and people who ski or want the beaches at the best times will only have a limited window that they will want to reserve. Plus, right now it is only people from that ts in the proper season that can try and get a prime week. In the points system it will be opened up to so many more people.

 

[Dean]

I just have to chime in here and say that I really don't have much interest in points. We very much enjoy staying at our resorts for week long intervals and generally go on vacation for at least two weeks straight to minimize are greatest vacation costs, travel to get there.

I have no interest in paying fees to convert to points to I have the flexibility to pay more in travel costs to stay at a timeshare resort for a shorter stay period. We sold our DVC points to get into Marriott's deeded weeks program and don't regret it for one moment!

As long as I'm not punished for keeping my deeded weeks and see my exchange opportunities limited, I can't see a scenario when I want to covert to points. Besides, we exchange sometimes, but absolutely love where and when we own and would have no problem going there every year!

Bill

What about going to HI or Aruba (etc) and arriving say Wed or Thu staying a week or two then leaving on Mon/Tue. You've almost got almost a 2/3 week vacation for the time of a 1/2 week vacation. ASMOF, that's exactly what we're doing in Aruba in Jan but we're changing systems to make it happen by staying on BG points at La Cabana for 2 nights, then moving to Surf Club for 7 then back to LCB for 3 more. Or maybe you just want to do long weekends even if it is higher points. The potential flexibility (cruises, etc) is far more expansive even than MVCI plus MR points currently. The question is what's the other side, what are we giving up, the details.

 

[hipslo]

But anyone with kids or school teachers will need the times when they are off from school and people who ski or want the beaches at the best times will only have a limited window that they will want to reserve. Plus, right now it is only people from that ts in the proper season that can try and get a prime week. In the points system it will be opened up to so many more people.

yep. same supply of prime weeks, more demand, since reservations will be opened to anyone who has enough points. how that will result in prime week reservations being easier to come by escapes me.

 

[PerryM]

I could be wrong. Maybe you could dig up a thread that didn't start off disparaging a developer purchase in which a developer purchaser just starts sounding off about how evil resale buyers are. I wouldn't pick one that Perry started or participated in though. While some folks may strike back at him it's my observation that he usually fires off a few rounds first.

Well I'm glad folks are keeping score - I guess.

I've bought developer and I've bought resale and there is a madness to my method. Do a 10 year projection of buying-using-selling and compare that to the freedom of renting and you get your answer.

Ok; back to the Round #3...

 

[l2trade]

This will be important to know. After the switch Marriott will be selling everyone enough point to get prime time just about anywhere. This equates to more owners of prime time than the amount of prime time in the system.

One more thing on this -

Everyone knows that the seasonal system is not perfect. This is why owners wake up early and fight for the best reservation weeks one year in advance, while the remaining weeks of that season are easy to obtain. We talked about this situation at length. Conceptually, the new point system will allow the point costs to reserve these different weeks within the same 'legacy season' to vary greatly and better reflect actual demand. Practically, I did not get a good explanation of how this will all work behind the scenes, beyond what I shared thus far. Will the TRUST snag all the best weeks ahead of owners following the legacy seasonal week rules? I don't know. Will legacy owners get an average, fixed points value for their season? I don't know. Owners in this situation should pay close attention to all the details of how this will work when it rolls out. I could not get a consistent answer to my detailed questions here.

This would be one of my biggest concerns in purchasing a resale legacy floating seasonal week for the perceived home resort reservation priority under the old rules. The risks (I speculate) are reminiscent of the painful reality of what Starwood did to non-SVN floating owners. Fixed week owners do not face the same risks. I will keep that lesson (my bias) in mind if I decide to purchase a resale Marriott legacy week someday.

Reminder to Self: Fixed over floating!