ROFR metric / Ongoing ROFR Activity

[JIMinNC]

For Marriott, I was close to buying a hybrid package that included a Desert Springs or a Grand Vista plus DC Points (but I decided against that for now). Marriott told me they only had one Grande Vista week available at that moment. They probably need to buy back those weeks for hybrid packages, I assume.

The weeks Marriott uses for the hybrid packages are not, to the best of my knowledge, ever weeks they have bought back. The weeks sold by Marriott as resale weeks are just that - resale weeks that they are brokering for owners who want to sell. It is my understanding that when Marriott buys a week back through ROFR, all of those weeks go into the MVC Trust to support points inventory for sale.

 

[Saintsfanfl]

/\ This is true.

 

[Jayco29D]

The weeks Marriott uses for the hybrid packages are not, to the best of my knowledge, ever weeks they have bought back. The weeks sold by Marriott as resale weeks are just that - resale weeks that they are brokering for owners who want to sell. It is my understanding that when Marriott buys a week back through ROFR, all of those weeks go into the MVC Trust to support points inventory for sale.

How do you know this? And why would they only buy back weeks for the Trust yet sell weeks for hybrid packages? They are selling many different weeks right now not just the two I mentioned. Where are they getting all that inventory?

 

[TXTortoise]

It does make sense if you see Marriott using the resale listings as a way to sell points without a cash outlay. They don't have to buy the weeks and pay MFs on them while in the Trust, but by bundling them they are selling Trust Points which might not be sold. At the same time they are making profit/commission on the resale week at 40%. I haven't done the numbers, but that 40% helps close the distance between the $7-8 Hybrid points cost and $12-13 retail points cost.

 

[Jayco29D]

It does make sense if you see Marriott using the resale listings as a way to sell points without a cash outlay. They don't have to buy the weeks and pay MFs on them while in the Trust, but by bundling them they are selling Trust Points which might not be sold. At the same time they are making profit/commission on the resale week at 40%. I haven't done the numbers, but that 40% helps close the distance between the $7-8 Hybrid points cost and $12-13 retail points cost.

I am just wondering how folks know all these things. Do some of you have an inside link to Marriott’s senior management who explain how resale weeks and the Trust work?

 

[TXTortoise]

In most cases, it's a lot of community knowledge and experiential data over a whole bunch of years.....and once you've read a lot of messages on here you get a sense of different folks credibility and knowledge, and factor that in.

That said, I don't think anyone will say 'it's exactly that way', as it is Marriott and with that big a bureaucracy, even they have process consistency issues. ;-)

 

[JIMinNC]

How do you know this? And why would they only buy back weeks for the Trust yet sell weeks for hybrid packages? They are selling many different weeks right now not just the two I mentioned. Where are they getting all that inventory?

I bought our Barony week through Marriott Resales and talked to them in the past about Maui before buying third party. Our Barony purchase was from a couple in Ohio, brokered by Marriott Resales. Same would have been the case for the Maui week had we done that. Any owner who wants to sell just contacts Marriott Resales and they will list it in exchange for a 40% commission. That is where they get all the inventory.

I guess I have no knowledge that they NEVER resale a week acquired through ROFR, but if they did that often, I think someone on TUG would have reported that they bought the week from Marriott direct.

The exception might be Aruba and St Kitts weeks sold in those places. Those may be weeks ROFR’d by MVC since they can’t go in the Trust.

 

[Fasttr]

How do you know this? And why would they only buy back weeks for the Trust yet sell weeks for hybrid packages? They are selling many different weeks right now not just the two I mentioned. Where are they getting all that inventory?

This is where they are getting all that inventory.... https://www.marriottvacationclub.com/resales/index.shtml

Its also not coincidental that the week pricing they offer in the hybrid packages is equal to the pricing listed on the resale weeks if purchased alone. MVC makes profit on the points sold in the hybrid deal and they also make profit (40% commission) on the resale of the week sold via the hybrid sale.

If they buy a week back via ROFR, they can make far more money by putting that week into the Trust and sell the underlying points at $11-$12 per point after discounts. That type of Trust inventory acquisition is far cheaper than building new resorts.

 

[Jayco29D]

I understand all this but the complicated explanations on TUG get awfully confusing. It seems quite simple. Marriott buys back through ROFR and resells the week at higher prices either in a hybrid package that converts to points, or as a standalone week that converts to points or puts the week’s points into the Trust.

 

[TXTortoise]

Marriott is not reselling weeks they own, only those listed by owners paying a 40% commission. Anything they buy back is going into the Trust as points, as noted at the end of your post.

 

[Fasttr]

I understand all this but the complicated explanations on TUG get awfully confusing. It seems quite simple. Marriott buys back through ROFR and resells the week at higher prices either in a hybrid package that converts to points, or as a standalone week that converts to points or puts the week’s points into the Trust.

Sounds like you feel you know what's happening...and for you, that's all that matters.

 

[Jayco29D]

Marriott is not reselling weeks they own, only those listed by owners paying a 40% commission. Anything they buy back is going into the Trust as points, as noted at the end of your post.

Someone gave a very confusing explanation that seemed to imply they have unsold weeks lying around that they are reselling. That was quite confusing. But regardless, it does not seem to matter much.

 

[Jayco29D]

Sounds like you feel you know what's happening...and for you, that's all that matters.

No, I actually do not think it matters much. I think all this discussion about Marriott’s strategy and where they get their weeks and how they resell them is sort of useless.

 

[Fasttr]

No, I actually do not think it matters much. I think all this discussion about Marriott’s strategy and where they get their weeks and how they resell them is sort of useless.

If you removed all the useless things we banter back and forth around here...what would we have left?

 

[Jayco29D]

I suspect everyone is partially right and partially wrong because when I log into my accounts or talk to the various companies I own with, some things are right and some things are wrong. TUG offers some helpful information and some pure speculation and hypotheses. Plus everything is constantly changing.

 

[Saintsfanfl]

Marriott does not sell weeks and this is well known. They do act as a real estate broker and this makes it appear like they sell certain weeks but they are only a broker. It might seem logical that they would buy a week and resell it but they just do not do this. It could possibly be due to legal conflicts but I am only guessing. I know there are some states that they do not even act as a real estate broker in.

 

[JIMinNC]

I understand all this but the complicated explanations on TUG get awfully confusing. It seems quite simple. Marriott buys back through ROFR and resells the week at higher prices either in a hybrid package that converts to points, or as a standalone week that converts to points or puts the week’s points into the Trust.

The bottom line is that we on TUG have seen no evidence whatsoever that Marriott resells the weeks they buy back via ROFR (at least at US resorts). That doesn't mean it has never happened, but I do think we would have seen examples posted if it did.

What we DO know from Marriott Vacations Worldwide's quarterly investor conference calls and annual 10K reports is they view their inventory repurchase programs as an inexpensive way to reacquire inventory for the trust. Their quarterly discussion to investors almost always mentions something about the "continued success of our inventory re-purchase program" and they say this allows them to repurchase inventory for addition to the trust for less than the cost of new construction.

 

[Jayco29D]

The bottom line is that we on TUG have seen no evidence whatsoever that Marriott resells the weeks they buy back via ROFR (at least at US resorts). That doesn't mean it has never happened, but I do think we would have seen examples posted if it did.

What we DO know from Marriott Vacations Worldwide's quarterly investor conference calls and annual 10K reports is they view their inventory repurchase programs as an inexpensive way to reacquire inventory for the trust. Their quarterly discussion to investors almost always mentions something about the "continued success of our inventory re-purchase program" and they say this allows them to repurchase inventory for addition to the trust for less than the cost of new construction.

I do not understand why this matters. I am confused. Why does this matter if they buy back weeks for Trust inventory or to resell them as enrolled weeks in hybrid packages or a standalone week? So where do they get inventory for selling in hybrid packages and as standalone weeks? They are still selling Grande Vista, Desert Springs 1, Aruba, St Kitts, Newport Coast and others, some in hybrid packages, some as stand alone weeks. I would have assumed those properties were sold out. It seems like you can get almost anything you want from Marriott Vacation Club. Does this mean they never sold out?

Forgive me if this sounds like a repeat question but no one has clearly answered this yet.

 

[TXTortoise]

All those weeks, with the possible exception of Aruba, are units they are selling for owners, whether individually or in a hybrid with Points. They do not sell Marriott owned weeks, except where the Points program is not offered, e.g., Spain.

 

[JIMinNC]

I do not understand why this matters. I am confused. Why does this matter if they buy back weeks for Trust inventory or to resell in hybrid packages or a standalone week? So where do they get inventory for selling in hybrid packages and as standalone weeks? They are still selling Grande Vista, Desert Springs 1, Aruba, St Kitts and others, some in hybrid packages, some as stand alone weeks. I would have assumed those properties were sold out. Does this mean they never sold out?

Here is where they get the inventory for hybrid packages:
https://www.marriottvacationclub.com/resales/sell-weeks.shtml

They have an active resale brokerage operation. When you buy a hybrid package, you are actually doing two separate transactions, with two separate closing costs, etc. You are buying the Points direct from Marriott and they are the seller, you are the buyer. But the week you buy in a hybrid is a totally separate transaction between another owner as the seller and you as the buyer, with Marriott Resales acting as the broker.

So Marriott is not still selling Grande Vista, Desert Springs 1, etc. They are acting as a broker between an owner who is wanting to sell and a buyer. The resorts listed for sale on the Marriott Resales site are listings on behalf of owners, just like any other third party broker site. As I said several posts up, when we bought our hybrid in 2014, the sales contract was between us as the buyer and a couple in Ohio as the seller. The separate points acquisition was between Marriott as the seller and us.

As TXTortoise just said, the Aruba and St. Kitts weeks are different. They cannot put those into the Trust because it is a US real estate trust. So in that case, those are likely weeks that were never previously sold or have been re-acquired through ROFR, foreclosure, direct re-purchase, etc.

 

[Jayco29D]

All those weeks, with the possible exception of Aruba, are units they are selling for owners, whether individually or in a hybrid with Points. They do not sell Marriott owned weeks, except where the Points program is not offered, e.g., Spain.

My question is why do it matter where the inventory comes from to any of us? Why do Tuggers worry about this at all?

 

[JIMinNC]

My question is why do it matter where the inventory comes from to any of us? Why do Tuggers worry about this at all?

Some people just want to know what time it is. Others want to know how the watch works, at least in part because it helps them understand a bit better how accurate the time displayed on the watch might be.

 

[Jayco29D]

Some people just want to know what time it is. Others want to know how the watch works, at least in part because it helps them understand a bit better how accurate the time displayed on the watch might be.

Ha, ha. Good answer!

 

[Dean]

My question is why do it matter where the inventory comes from to any of us? Why do Tuggers worry about this at all?

It may not matter where it comes from but where it comes from affects the options and availability.

 

[SueDonJ]

My question is why do it matter where the inventory comes from to any of us? Why do Tuggers worry about this at all?

Back when the DC was introduced at midnight on 6/20/10 with a only a generic blurb and the legal documents posted to the website, we were able to make sense of it fairly quickly only because for years prior we'd been dissecting in minute detail every aspect of ownership and relating it to other known points systems.

Back before the DC was introduced and Weeks were the only game in town, we were able to reach educated guesses about future resorts and pricing only because TUG discussions delved into the minute details of every resort that had come online prior.

During every TUG discussion that delves into the legal aspects - whether from the owners' perspectives or from Marriott's - there are knowledgeable TUGgers who share their experiences as well as the particulars contained in their docs, which helps all of us understand the obligations and rights of both us and Marriott.

Etc etc etc ...

'Where the inventory comes from for Marriott Resales' might appear to be a useless factoid that doesn't much matter, of course, but at some point it may be THE puzzle piece that solves the entire 'How MVW manipulates inventory' puzzle. I'm sure that I'll never need to know at least half of what I've learned on TUG, but I'm just as sure that the other half is what helps me get the absolute most out of my ownership. Not everybody wants to know everything all the time but it's good to know that when you do want to know a certain something, somebody will probably be able to help you.